The Rank Hypocrisy of Dean Supporters

[DJcairo]

They see red when you mention the war in Iraq, yet they support a candidate who over the last 10 years has a) said he thought medicare was "the worst federal program ever" and b) indicated in an NRA questioniarre that he didn't support a federal ban on assault weapons.

Two points here:
1. Despite what Dean says he believes now, aren't these examples of waffling far more agregious than Kerry's consistant, yet nuanced position on IWR?
2. If you care about living in a peaceful society and the well being of all people who live in that society, shouldn't you be actively supporting Medicare and gun control (the US has, by far, the highest homicide rate of any developed country largely due to the influence of guns and don't play Repuke water boy by trying to deny it).

My point is, whatever Dean believes or doesn't believe (I'll leave that for Dean supporters to figure out) his supporters claim Kerry wants it both ways on a difficult vote that came at a difficult time for many Democrats. However, they consistantly refuse to acknowledge that their candidate has spoken out against things that he now says he is for. Things as important as health and gun safety.
I'd rather have a nominee who was consistant with these Democratic principles. If Dean is "from teh democratic wing of the democratic party" and he wants Democrats to "stand up for what we believe in again". What is it he thinks we Democrats should be standing up for. Health Care, Gun Safety? Dean certainly has not lead by example.

[Closer]

1. Versus

the bitterness, contempt and jealousy of Kerry supporters


:bounce:

[DJcairo]

2. Should I be jealous of Dean's past statements?

I don't think I am. Inf act I'm quite happy that my guy Kerry is on the right side of all these issues and am confident that he will win the nomination because Dean is on the wrong side and his past comments betray that.

[La_Serpiente]

6. you sure know how

to get people's emotions running.

[helleborient]

14. And you must be desperate...

Since you're engaging in name-calling now. "Rank hypocrites"?

[Padraig18]

27. gotta love it!

"...Please note that, strictly speaking, sweeping statements about entire groups of fellow progressives are not considered personal attacks. However, they are often inflammatory and counterproductive and the moderators have broad discretion to remove such posts in the interests of keeping the peace on the message board...."

Plays that rule like a Stradivarius... :eyes:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. You really have to do better than that

but apparently you support Dean's weaving back and forth and his anything but straight course on the issues.
This kind of support of a charlatan will discredit the Democrats for a long time to come in future presidential contests.

[sandnsea]

23. Outrage

Pure outrage. The thing you Deanie's are supposed to understand. Outrage at a candidate who changes his position, bashes others in his own party for having positions he says he didn't have, bashes others for having true Democratic positions, bashes others for calling him on his hypocrisy, and supporters who are just hunky-dory with the whole ugly thing. This is awfully similar to what we're fighting AGAINST. I'm outraged, and totally disgusted that this could be happening in the Democratic party.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

24. Wow. That's a strong post.

I'm a little ticked off myself but...WOW!... does the feeling come through in your very strong post.
We really need to put Dean in his place with a big win in NH.

[sandnsea]

28. I am really pissed

I can't stand this shit. The one thing in my life that I could never tolerate was a liar. I just can't. I can deal with anything but that.

[helleborient]

30. Interesting that it's exactly the same reason I don't support Kerry...

I don't think he's been truthful yet about his Iraq vote.

I listened to Gephardt this morning talk about his vote...and at least I think he is being truthful and standing up for why he voted the way he did. I don't agree with him, but at least he's not being disingenuous about what he did.

Seemingly, according to John Kerry's supporters, one can never change their mind. If everyone in government was forced to maintain the same position forever, civil rights would have never passed congress and been signed into law.

I support Dean's truthfulness in saying he changed his mind.

I support Dennis Kucinich's truthfulness in saying he changed his mind about abortion.

[Padraig18]

33. Kerry has 'spun' his IWR vote...

... so many times, you need a libretto to follow along and know what page we're supposed to be on this week... :eyes:

[killbotfactory]

35. No,no,no... it's not "spin" it's "nuance"

When Kerry changes his position over several months to make himself less politically liable, it's "nuance" and "consistant" who is a beacon of liberal courage.

When Dean changes a position slightly over the past 10 years, he's a "waffler" and "flip-flopper" who's not a real democrat.

[Padraig18]

37. you're right.

I forgot that only howard ever 'waffles', and paragons of truth, virtue and enlightnment like John Kerry never do... /sarcasm off :P

[alexwcovington]

3. Dean Rocks

:P

[library_max]

4. I'm not sure where this bashing gets us.

When politicians' positions change over a matter of years, that just shows that they haven't stopped thinking. I do expect Dean to shift (back) toward the center when and if he gets the nomination. To me, that just shows that he's a smart politician, which is what we need.

Kerry's my preferred candidate, by the way, but I think Dean would also be a strong nominee. My main support is for ABB.

[sandnsea]

9. This makes no sense

His whole campaign is about being a straight-talker and standing up for Democratic principles. If he's a straight-talker, he ought to say he changed his mind on all these issues. He doesn't say that. And who knows what real views he has, but his record shows his views are anything but traditional Democratic principles. And why would anybody support someone who's just going to shift their views when they get the nomination? He's got support because he says he's not going to do that. I just do not see how anybody can stick up for this guy.

[library_max]

26. Watch and see.

There is all the difference between politics in the abstract (the way it "should" be) and politics as it is practiced (the way it is). We need a smart campaigner like Clinton was who can finesse the issues we need to finesse and turn the BFEE's attacks back on themselves. I'm not saying Dean is the one, but we do need someone like that.

The last truly honest presidential nominee was Jimmy Carter. And while the wave of national nausea over Watergate put him in office, he was one of the most hated Presidents of the 20th Century precisely because he was so honest.

[helleborient]

5. Dean's Message : Campaign based on hope...not fear!

Too bad the Kerry supporter starting this thread is endorsing the world of fear.

[CMT]

8. I work in a hospital and Medicare is administrated poorly

which is Dean's point and I back it up. I'll back up his record of providing health insurance in Vt and prescription drug benefits to seniors to any candidate running for president. It is getting tiring hearing you always swipe at Dean supporters. Say something positive about John Kerry once in a while.

[arcane1]

10. hooray, more talking points for 04

thanks a bunch!

Karl Rove

[library_max]

34. Aw c'mon.

Which point is useful to Karl Rove - the Medicare point or the gun control point? Is Bush going to tell Democrats they ought to be pissed off at Dean over Medicare and gun control?

[dfong63]

11. contrast w/ the rank hypocrisy of kerry himself

Kerry made his name as someone who was an opponent of the immoral Vietnam war, yet now he's trying to capitalize on having fought in that immoral war. i guess there's a good reason he threw away another soldier's medals, not his own. he still wants to be seen as a "hero" for having fought and killed (heroically), even though the people he fought and killed were fighting to defend their country from a foreign invader. in other words, they were just doing what we'd do if the same thing happened to us.

as a young man, Kerry fought in an immoral war he was against. lately as a senator, he voted for a war he now says he didn't support. that's not the kind of "leadership" this country needs.

[Capn Sunshine]

12. You'll never convince people that forward arguments like these

Come election day, they'll be in the basement with the lights off, sucking on D cell batteries to remain bitter.

I don't think I've ever bashed Kerry, even though he recently expressed a firm belief that WMDS could be found in Iraq.

It's not productive.

Concentrate on your mans campaign, not the others. Maybe then he could gain a little traction.

[eissa]

13. This is so upsetting

Dean is my candidate. However, I will vote for whomever the democratic nominee is. Yet I've seen repeatedly on this site people who are so hateful against Dean, to the point that even one poster said that if it came down to Dean and Bush, he wouldn't vote for Dean. This is sad :cry:

[killbotfactory]

15. Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean...

Kerry's IWR is so "nuanced" nobody can agree on where he stands.

[sandnsea]

16. I agree with you

You know I do. It actually seems like people really don't care about Democratic values as much as they care about beating Republicans. Sometimes I think it's all a big political game and nobody takes anything they say seriously. Roll out the best hype and score a win for the team. What actually happens to people and the country doesn't seem to be part of the equation.

[library_max]

40. What's going to actually happen to the people and the country

if Bush gets four more years?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vis Numar]

18. opps

That slipped from thought to action...

[deutsey]

19. I've been too busy lately at work and volunteering for Dean

to be posting in here much lately. Sad to see the same people still beating the same dead horses.

[RogueTrooper]

20. Rebuttal

a) He said that he thought medicare with the worst run federal program ever.
b) You have already started a thread on this. Why do you not go and read your own thread.

1. Now, as for the vote. People were looking for leadership against this war and expetations were high with regard to John Kerry providing some Anit-Bush leadership. Sadly, after Mr. Kerry sniffed the political winds, that was not to be. Kerry's vote is not the main reason so many people's ire has been raised, it is his poor leadership. The vote was just a symptom of his poor leadership.

2a. Our candidate has a very good record on health care. In fact, all these attacks do is enable us to talk about Dr. Dean's fabulous Vermont record.

2b Our candidate does support gun control. What is your problem?

[Rose Siding]

25. Wordsmiths weilding scalpals

That's all the small group that target Dean have available to them. This is to be expected.

[madfloridian]

21. Your reputation for Dean attacks is clouding what you say.

I have this guy on ignore. I do not know why I saw this message.

I checked out his posts and they are nearly all anti-Dean.

I will try the ignore again, and see if it is working or what.

DJCairo, post some worthwhile things for a change. Or show us some other issues you are interested in.

Your reputation of Dean bashing is clouding what you say now.

[Padraig18]

22. Ahem!

"...Please note that, strictly speaking, sweeping statements about entire groups of fellow progressives are not considered personal attacks. However, they are often inflammatory and counterproductive and the moderators have broad discretion to remove such posts in the interests of keeping the peace on the message board...."

[library_max]

29. So click Alert already.

Never mind, I did.

[Padraig18]

31. I did.

Same result you had, apparently. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

36. I have clicked alert before.

Still remains, still getting OTHER people deleted or kicked off because they get mad.

Still hating Dean.

I just clicked alert earlier.

[Padraig18]

38. These threads have seem to the highest deletion rate at DU...

... but are never considered inflammatory/flame bait. Am I the only one who's noticed that? :shrug:

[library_max]

39. Well, it's on Politics and Campaigns

and not GD, where the rules are a more strict. And I've seen more inflammatory threads from the Dean camp about Kerry (the IWR vote, mainly), although not in the last few weeks.

[lastliberalintexas]

32. Wow

You're very busy today with these oh-so-productive threads of yours. :eyes:

BTW- you can criticize Dean all you want. But be careful what you say about your fellow DUers who are his supporters.