How many issues has Howard Dean flip-flopped on?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

There are so many it is hard to keep track. Off the top of my head:

Affirmative action.
NAFTA.
Guns.
Medicare.
Campaign finance.
Social Security retirement age.
Total repeal of Bush tax cuts.
Death penalty.
Israel/Palestine.
Unilateral action in Iraq.

Is that the whole list?

[a_random_joel]

1. I think you forgot one

Boxers or Briefs...

[burythehatchet]

2. Your persuasive argument has swayed me

I sure won't be supporting him.
:crazy:

[StephNW4Clark]

3. Calling Congress "cockroaches"? n/t

[LuminousX]

35. Zell Miller (D Georgia)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

4. Has he said The U.S. will remain strongest in the world militarily?

or does he still say we will decline into an impotent defenseless has-been superpower?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. Oh I forgot

Energy deregulation.

[boxster]

6. You should probably have added some links and documentation,

unless you want to get flamed mercilessly.

}(

[hippiechick]

7. I'd like cites and quotes, please.

Since you seem so incredibly objective in your motivation :eyes:


:hippie:

[indigo32]

9. Don't get him started Hippiechick

you'll be sorry you did.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. LOL

I'm almost sorry myself... I gotta do some of the work I've been putting off all month but I'll be back later with the references...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

88. Cites and quotes.

Affirmative action.

Dean says America needs affirmative action to overcome people's natural bias to hire and promote employees who look like them. But he had a different position in 1995, when the then-governor of Vermont appeared on CNN.

"You know, I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race, but on class and opportunities to participate," Dean said.
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-democrats-affirmative-action,0,4828392.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

NAFTA.

Dean also took issue with a characterization by a TV interviewer that he had been a "strong supporter" of NAFTA, the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement. Dean acknowledged that he had supported NAFTA, but took exception to the "strong" part. "I never did anything about it," he said. "I didn't vote on it. I didn't march down in the street demanding NAFTA. I simply wrote a letter (to President Clinton) supporting NAFTA."

The Gephardt campaign subsequently called attention to a transcript of a Jan. 29, 1995 "This Week" show in which Dean told a different interviewer that "I was a very strong supporter of NAFTA."
http://www.n-jcenter.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Politics/NationWorld/03LegislaturePOL03091503.htm

Guns.

Back when Howard Dean was running for governor of Vermont in 1992, he told the National Rifle Association in a signed questionnaire that he opposed any restrictions on private ownership of assault weapons.

These days, running for the Democratic presidential nomination and appealing to a very different electorate from that of his small, largely rural state, Dr. Dean assures audiences that he firmly supports the assault weapons ban enacted under President Bill Clinton in 1994 though vigorously opposing any further federal regulation of guns.

Dr. Dean declined a request for an interview on Thursday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/31/politics/campaigns/31GUNS.html?ex=1068181200&en=bf47a83479534761&ei=5062

Medicare.

STEPHANOPOULOS: (Gephardt) also says that in 1995, you specifically supported the 270 billion dollars or so in tax cuts that were called for by Newt Gingrich --

DEAN: I think that's very unlikely.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Here's the document?And it's pretty clear that you said you would accept a seven- to ten-percent cut in the rate of growth of Medicare, which is --

DEAN: Oh, a cutting the rate of growth is much different --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, except that the cut in growth rate in 1995 came to 270 billion dollars.

DEAN: I've got to find out?but I fully subscribe to the notion which is to reduce the Medicare growth rate to ten percent or less, I'm sure I said that.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That's what Newt Gingrich was calling for in 1995.
http://www.liberaloasis.com/archives/091403.htm#091603




GEPHARDT: Howard and I just have a basic disagreement. He said in, I think, 1993 that Medicare was the worst federal program ever. He said that it was the worst thing that ever happened.

He also supported, at our darkest hour--when I was leading the fight against Newt Gingrich and the Contract With America, he was shutting the government down--Howard, you were agreeing with the very plan that Newt Gingrich wanted to pass, which was a $270 billion cut in Medicare.

Now, you've been saying for many months that you're the head of the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party. I think you're just winging it.

This is not the view of Democrats, in my view.

This program has been under attack from the Republicans since the beginning. And we need a candidate against George Bush that can take the fight to him on it, not someone who agreed with the Gingrich Republicans.

WILLIAMS: Governor Dean?

DEAN: That is flat-out false, and I'm ashamed that you would compare me with Newt Gingrich. Nobody up here deserves to be compared to Newt Gingrich.

(APPLAUSE)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A433-2003Sep25.html

Social Security retirement age.

"Sen. Bob Packwood (R-Ore.): I've said many times that I think we should raise the retirement age about the year 2015--raise it by that time to about age 70.

"Howard Dean: I am very pleased to hear Bob Packwood because I absolutely agree we need to reduce the--I mean, to increase the retirement age. There will be cuts and losses of some benefits, but I believe that Sen. Packwood is on exactly the right track."
--CNN's Crossfire, Feb. 28, 1995
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean on the record as supporting raising the retirement age.

Russert: ...calling for that, and this is what Howard Dean said. "The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. 'It would be tough but we could do it,' he said."
Dean: Well, we fortunately don't have to do that now.
Russert: We have a $500 billion deficit.
Dean: But you don't have to cut Social Security to do that.
Russert: But why did you have to do it back then?
Dean: Well, because that was the middle of--I mean, I don't recall saying that, but I'm sure I did
--Meet the Press, June 22, 2003
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

Here we have Dean being reminded, and acknowledging, on national TV on June 22 that he did hold this position.

"I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68."
--AFL-CIO Democratic presidential candidate forum, Aug. 5, 2003
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean denying on national TV on August 5 that he ever held that position.


Death penalty.

In 1992, Dean said, "I don't support the death penalty for two reasons. One, you might have the wrong guy, and, two, the state is like a parent. Parents who smoke cigarettes can't really tell their children not to smoke and be taken seriously. If a state tells you not to murder people, a state shouldn't be in the business of taking people's lives." The Rutland Herald, a Vermont newspaper, says that in those days "Dean was an outspoken opponent of the death penalty."

Flop: In early June 2003, Dean issued a statement declaring, "As governor, I came to believe that the death penalty would be a just punishment for certain, especially heinous crimes, such as the murder of a child or the murder of a police officer. The events of Sept. 11 convinced me that terrorists also deserve the ultimate punishment."
http://slate.msn.com/id/2088207/

For the others, see post 75, post 76, post 79, and post 81.

[indigo32]

8. And I STILL support him

HAVE A NICE DAY!

[LuminousX]

36. What is WRONG with you?

How can you?

Actually, posts like this convinced me not to vote for Dean. Unfortunately, nothing has been posted to convince me any of the other twits running are worthy of my vote.

[polpilot]

10. He flipped Kerry and then Gep flopped. Then Kerry flopped & flipped!!!

Dean '04...The Man!!

[lastliberalintexas]

11. Hmmm,

maybe in addition to it being Halloween, we also have a full moon. Would that explain all these oh-so-positive threads today? :eyes:

[BrewCrew]

15. flips and flops

Maybe Yucca Mountain also? Here is the thing. I am not a Dean supporter, but would work tirelessly for him should he win the nomination. I have no problem with an elected official changing their opinions on certain issues. These people have the right to reflect and change when new evidence is brought before them. My problem is when the change for only political gain. That is weak-ass. No one wants to vote for someone who talks out of both sides of their mouth. Politicians also have to be able to admit when they are wrong and that they've changed their minds.

I'm willing to give Dean the benefit of the doubt on most of these issues, because he's been the Governor of Vermont and thus hasnt really had the opportunity to see things like the negative effects of NAFTA on our Industrial States, or the bad aspects of Yucca Mountain. Maybe I'm simplifying it too much? But as Governor, his main concern and rightly so was Vermont. He supported NAFTA because his state is next to Canada and waste to Yucca Mountain because he wanted it out of VT. I understand.

He's obviously not the 'straight-talker' he was portrayed as earlier, but he's still a good man..who's heart is the right place.

[boxster]

13. I thought Clark was the only one that wasn't allowed to change his mind?

That's what Dean supporters tell me.

Hehe. }( }(

[blm]

18. The reason this is serious is the 250 million dollars in ads

that will use Dean's own words to portray him as unprincipled. The worst soundbite Dean gave them? From the last debate....He'll have as much experience on foreign policy as Bush did when he took office, and that he'll have a staff to deal with foreign policy. Dean's OWN words will sink him., and bring the rest of the Dem ticket down with him.

Think what those flip flops and stupid statements will look like repeated 20 times a day in 30-60 second spots for WEEKS all over the country.

[boxster]

22. You're right, and I agree that it's serious.

We as Democrats are going to have a difficult time bashing Bush on his lies and omissions if our own nominee can be shown to be wishy-washy on the issues. The sting just isn't the same.

And yes, the Repubs are going to have the best run-up to the election that money can buy, so no matter how confident we may be that we can beat Bush, $200+ million can buy a lot of votes and sway a lot of voters.

[FrenchieCat]

67. But I really didn't have any idea that

Dean wears a toupee....I didn't know that! I am shocked.
I don't think that it's natural.....or honest!
I saw a pic of him without it! Yikes!:wow:

Discussion going here about that subject.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=72977

[boxster]

71. I think that post was a gag.

I think that's Jimmy Buffet, but they could be brothers! :)

[helleborient]

25. John Kerry has spent more money than anyone but Howard Dean...

And he has nothing in polls to show for it.

He can't connect with Democrats...why would we expect he has a prayer of connecting with a national audience?

He launched his campaign in South Carolina and has less than 10% support there. He's trailing in his neighboring state. He's a distant 3rd in Iowa.

Dean, Clark, Gephardt, and Edwards all show serious signs of life in their campaigns that Kerry simply doesn't.

Remember, Kerry was once considered the frontrunner.

What is his plan to regain that in the campaign?

Where's the traction??

[blm]

34. The press ignores him or lies about him.

And has declared for months that Dean was the only Dem who criticizes Bush. The press has their storyline and Dean should have had the nomination nailed down already with all the media pumping his candidacy.

[LuminousX]

37. What is Kerry's plan to circumvent the press then?

Or are we just screwed?

[blm]

42. He's going to have to do major ad buys, imo.

Spend twice as much as he expected.

The media won't tell the truth about him, and when they do it never gets very far. How much discussion did you see on the NYT analysis where they said Kerry did NOT waffle on Iraq? Now, how many times have you heard the corporate media say Kerry is trying to have it both ways?

Kerry holds up under scrutiny. It would be harder to write ads against him that couldn't be easily refuted.

[polpilot]

52. "spend twice as much as he expected' = BUY VOTES Kerry-surprised

again?

Dean '04...Not surprised

[blm]

54. Well look at all the free media the GOP whores give Dean.

Kerry is going to have to buy ADS so the media can't control the Dem primary and give Rove what he wants.

[polpilot]

57. Dean will give Rove what Dean 'decides' to give Rove. Like he gave

Kerry what he deserves.

Dean '04...the New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party.

[snoochie]

78. That sounds a bit ominous.

GOP media whores sniffing and licking at Dean's feet.

[Speck Tater]

14. Dean will flip that flop in the White House out on his ass

nt

[meg]

16. When did you stop beating your wife?

Same kind of question.

[On the Road]

17. Here Comes the Al Gore Microscope

Personally, I think he's been as consistent as any other candidate who's trying to win rather than just make a statement.

I don't think qualifying or moderating position is flip-flopping. That refers to an about-face.

The only flip-flop I'm worried about is the pressure that is developing for Dean to leave some of Bush's tax cuts in place, especially the marriage provision or child exemptions. He will either be portrayed as waffling or will give the GOP a wedge issue to attack him with. I still believe he will win the nomination and the presidency.

[coralrf]

19. I am no Dean man...

but I do think you might support your claims of flip floping. The script from the RNC concerning Dean calls for labeling him a "flip floper". I would suggest if you are a Democrat, (if you are) that you not advance the RNC spin as they can do that well enough on their own. If you choose to support another Democrat please have the good sense not to use RNC crap in attacks on others that you do not support.

If Dean becomes our, (if you with us) candidate you will have done nothing but damage him. And that is bullshit.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

20. Not at all. We are looking for weaknesses and disqualifiers

Pushing a candidate who may not win or even have a chance is bullshit.

[helleborient]

24. And the fact that John Kerry....

Has campaigned for months, spent nearly as much money as Howard Dean - and once led in polls among likely candidates, but yet is 3rd in Iowa, over 10 points behind in his neighboring state, and below 10% in South Carolina would seem to imply his chances of winning a national election are questionable at best.

What has all the money done for John Kerry?

What have all the months of campaigning done for John Kerry?

He simply doesn't connect with the people.

Why is it expected that suddenly he will catch fire?

What will change??

[killbotfactory]

27. He'll announce his candidacy again

While jumping the grand canyon on a harley.

[paulk]

39. New Hampshire

is still three months away - an eternity in politics.

Many things could change.

[Hawkeye-X]

99. I know how John Kerry should catch on fire..

With a gas can and a box of matches.

:eyes:

Hawkeye-X

[Feanorcurufinwe]

100. Lovely sentiment.

[indigo32]

28. And who will win NYFM

who will win?

[AP]

23. RNC labels for Dean: "likely nominee"; "anti-Bush"; "anti-war".

I haven't seen "flip-flopper" as one of the labels.

That's the one I hear from Democrats who care about these issues.

[DrFunkenstein]

29. Actually, Here's The RNC On Flip-Flopping

Dean flip-flops on everything

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research090503-3.htm

Clark flip-flops on Iraq

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research102703.htm

Kerry flip-flops on use of military credentials

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/ICUMI101503.htm

[AP]

32. I stand corrected. Has CNN, NYT, anyone picked up on this?

Those realeasese were two months old, right?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

38. Wow. It's like a flapjack with Dean

I'm glad someone's keeping track. Dean's acrobatics are quite dizzying to be sure. Good Lord we're self-destructing right before ther RNC's eyes by backing Dean.

[killbotfactory]

40. you believe that crap?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

63. Well u h...yeah, they are cited and dated

Kind of hard to refute something when it's right before your eyes.

[killbotfactory]

72. It's in print, it must be true!

Desperate spin by desperate people.

[lastliberalintexas]

41. I hope you're joking

"I'm glad someone's keeping track."

Um, you did see that those came from the RNC, right?

[DrFunkenstein]

58. I Love The RNC!

I highly recommend to everyone to keep tabs of what they are saying about your candidate. Nip that crap in the bud.

They're the source of alot of my best Kerry quotes. It's like Bizarro World. What they despise (pro-choice, pro-environment) sounds great to us!

Plus they have the world's funniest recruitment video!

http://www.gop.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/TLvideo2.htm

I signed up as a GOP Team Leader...they send me talking points!

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w4rma]

68. DrFunkenstein says: I signed up as a GOP Team Leader…

they send me talking points!

I think you're not the only Dean basher to do so.

[DrFunkenstein]

21. How Many Troops Did He Say Should Stay In Iraq?

What was his final evolution?

[killbotfactory]

26. Unilateral action in Iraq? Nope.

He's been pretty clear. No unilateral action unless Iraq is proven a threat to the US (he wasn't) and the UN won't do anything about it (they wouldn't), or if weapons were found and the UN refused to act (they wouldn't).

Spin it however you like, with incomplete and out of context quotes cherry picked from the following sources, but he seems pretty clear to me.

Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said if Saddam is shown to have atomic or biological weapons, the United States must act. But he also said Bush must first convince Americans that Iraq has these weapons and then prepare them for the likelihood American troops would be there for a decade.

August 12, 2002

"There's substantial doubt that is as much of a threat as the Bush administration claims." Though Americans might initially rally to military action, 'that support will be very short-lived once American kids start coming home in boxes,' Mr. Dean warned Wednesday as he campaigned in Iowa.

September 06, 2002

"The president has to do two things to get the country's long-term support for the invasion of Iraq," Dean said in a telephone interview. "He has done neither yet." Dean said President Bush needs to make the case that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, such as atomic or biological weapons, and the means to use them. Bush also needs to explain to the American public that a war against Iraq is going to require a long commitment.

September 18, 2002

Dean, in an interview Tuesday, said flatly that he did not believe Bush has made "the case that we need to invade Iraq." Dean said he could support military action, even outside the U.N., if Bush could "establish with reasonable credibility" that Hussein had the capacity to deliver either nuclear or biological weapons against the United States and its allies. But he said that the president, to this point, hadn't passed that test.

"He is asking American families to sacrifice their children, and he's got to have something more than, 'This is an evil man,' " Dean said. "There are a lot of evil people running countries around the world; we don't bomb every one of them. We don't ask our children to die over every one of them."

September 18, 2002

"The president approached it in exactly the wrong way. The first thing I would have done is gone to United Nations Security Council and gone to our allies and say, "Look, the UN resolutions are being violated. If you don't enforce them, then we will have to." The first choice, however, is to enforce them through the UN and with our allies. That's the underlying approach."

October 31st, 2002

"I would like to at least have the president, who I think is an honest person, look us in the eye and say, 'We have evidence, here it is.' We've never heard the president of the United States say that. There is nothing but innuendo, and I want to see some hard facts."

December 22, 2002

"I do not believe the president has made the case to send American kids and grandkids to die in Iraq. And until he does that, I don't think we ought to be going into Iraq. So I think the two situations are fairly different. Iraq does not possess nuclear weapons. The best intelligence that anybody can find, certainly that I can find, is that it will be at least a year before he does so and maybe five years."

January 06, 2003

"I personally believe hasn’t made his case"

January 10, 2003

"These are the young men and women who will be asked to risk their lives for freedom. We certainly deserve more information before sending them off to war."

January 29, 2003

"Terrorism around the globe is a far greater danger to the United States than Iraq. We are pursuing the wrong war,"

February 5, 2003

"We ought not to resort to unilateral action unless there is an imminent threat to the United States. And the secretary of State and the president have not made a case that such an imminent threat exists.''

February 12, 2003

In an interview, Dean said that he opposed the congressional resolution and remained unconvinced that Hussein was an imminent threat to the United States. He said he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approved the move and backed it with action of its own.

"They have to send troops," he said.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/5236485.htm">Feb. 22, 2003

"Well, I think that the United Nations makes it clear that Saddam has to disarm, and if he doesn't, then they will disarm him militarily. I have no problem with supporting a United Nations attack on Iraq, but I want it to be supported by the United Nations. That's a well-constituted body. The problem with the so-called multilateral attack that the president is talking about is an awful lot of countries, for example, like Turkey-- we gave them $20 billion in loan guarantees and outright grants in order to secure their permission to attack. I don't think that's the right way to put together a coalition. I think this really has to be a world matter. Saddam must be disarmed. He is as evil as everybody says he is. But we need to respect the legal rights that are involved here. Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them.

February 27, 2003

What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting the President’s unilateral intervention in Iraq?

March 15th, 2003

"I went to Parris Island so I could look into the faces of the kids who will be sent to Iraq," Dean told a cheering lunchtime crowd in Concord, N.H. "We should always support our kids, but I do not support this president's policies and I will continue to say so."

March 18, 2003

"Anti-war Presidential candidate Howard Dean said he will not silence his criticism of President Bush's Iraq policy now that the war has begun, but he will stop the 'red meat' partisan attacks.

"No matter how strongly I oppose the President's policy, I will continue to support American troops who are now in harms way," said Dean

March 20, 2003

While Dean said he was staunchly opposed to the war and planned to continue criticizing it, he also said the United States should keep fighting, putting him at odds with other antiwar activists who have been calling for an immediate cease-fire.

''We're in. We don't have any choice now. But this is the wrong choice,'' Dean said. ''There will be some who think we should get out immediately, but I don't think that's an easy position to take.''

March 23, 2003

On day one of a Dean Presidency, I will reverse this attitude. I will tear up the Bush Doctrine. And I will steer us back into the company of the community of nations where we will exercise moral leadership once again.

April 17th, 2003

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xJlM]

31. How many fingers and toes do you have?

And what's to come tomorrow? All it took for me was watching ONE flip flop, and I knew he had nothing to say I wanted to hear. He's done nothing to convince me otherwise since, either.

[robbedvoter]

33. Non-partisan elections in NYC (GOP's last coup unfolding here)

Dean flip-flops
on Bloomy's ballot
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/story/132100p-117886c.html


By MICHAEL R. BLOOD
DAILY NEWS POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT


Howard Dean Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean's foray into New York City politics backfired yesterday when he appeared to take conflicting positions on whether party primaries for local offices should be dumped.

snip
But Dean also said he would "support nonpartisan elections" similar to those held in California, where all local races are nonpartisan, in a questionnaire submitted to the Committee for a Unified Independent Party, a research group founded by Independence Party activist Lenora Fulani.

Dean's office did not dispute his statement in the questionnaire.

"What the New York ballot question is about is not good, responsible government and nonpartisan elections - it's about a power grab," spokesman Eric Schmeltzer said.



One rival said Dean was caught in a flip-flop.

"Like his positions on Medicare and affirmative action, once again Howard Dean is trying to have it both ways," said Kim Molstre, a spokesman for the campaign of Missouri Rep. Dick Gephardt.


With David Saltonstall and Michael Saul

[Pez]

61. everyone in nyc vote NO on nonpartisan elections!!!!!

i got some crock mailer the other day with a bunch of minority women on the front with quotes saying "I am a life-long democrat and I am voting YES on nonpartisan elections!"

BU--SH--!!#@#$~

nooooo very nooooo... another puke-paid media blitz in a mostly minority (dominican) neighborhood.

[robbedvoter]

70. For those not knowing who Fulani is, from Bob herbert:

Now he's at it again. The mayor wants to ban party primaries in the city. He wants to do this because there are five registered Democrats in the city for every registered Republican, and because he's locked in an unseemly alliance with a nutty group called the Independence Party, which has obsessively pursued the goal of nonpartisan > elections.

The Independence Party is the decidedly dysfunctional political home of Lenora Fulani, a sometime Marxist-Leninist who likes to run for office (she's run for president twice) and has supported or forged alliances with, among others, Louis Farrakhan, Ross Perot and Pat Buchanan. This is a party you should run from, not with.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/31/opinion/31HERB.html
(So, the fact that Dean answered her questionnaire pisses me off - plus cancelled whatever good he wanted to do now and aided the coupsters)
And, yes, New Yorkers get crap in their mail PERSONALLY financed by Bloomberg (Issa anyone?). He spent 2 million on it already! And all to help the poor...independents?

[snoochie]

80. Sounds like another attempt to subvert Democracy...

brought to you by the stealth GOP.

[LuminousX]

43. Is this what it has come to? Fascinating.

I wish I could live in the black and white universe you people do.

[lastliberalintexas]

44. Yep

I think it's time for another vacation from DU.

[Cocoa]

45. Yankees/Red Sox

but I see that one as a good trait. I flip-flop constantly between the Cubs and White Sox and the Bears and Packers. :-)

[Padraig18]

46. Dean 'flip flops', but Kerry only 'nuances'...

Gimme that ol'time spin... :eyes:

[Rowdyboy]

47. The whole thing is just so idiotic....

Throughout my life I have maintained an open mind and have (gasp) changed my opinion on many issues. Changing your mind, even on fundamental issues, is part of intellectual maturity and growing knowledge.

People can use charges of flipflopping against any half-way intelligent candidate.

[Padraig18]

48. Ain't it the trruth.

The whole non-issue is insane... :shrug:

[LuminousX]

50. Exactly

We use terms like 'nuance' and 'evolve' to illustrate that the world isn't clear-cut. Sometimes a position is taken for the moment and then when new information is made available, a new position is needed. Kerry supported attacking Iraq. Now in hindsight, I doubt he would support doing it.

[genius]

49. And people are thinking of voting for this guy for Pres?

UNBELIEVABLE.

[LuminousX]

51. Yes they are

Are you going to now insult all of them and hope against reality that Kucinich wins and somehow is able to then get all those people you insulted to work for him.

[xJlM]

53. They don't want to meet me on the street

Given what I have seen here, I don't think any Dean campaigners want to approach me. I won't have many kind words...

[LuminousX]

55. Nice, really nice.

I fear for my life around Kucinich supporters, and just last week a Kerry supporter hit my in the face with a shovel. Don't even get me started with the Clark supporter who shoved a gun in my gut.

[xJlM]

56. Words don't hurt much

If you're on my property, though, and I tell you to get the fuck off, you need to do so.

[LuminousX]

60. And I would

and I'm not even a Dean supporter. Trespassing is against the law and you have the right to pick and choose who you want on your property.

Just make sure, for the sake of any Dean people in your neighborhood, you post a sign 'No Dean Supporters Allowed'

[xJlM]

64. This is repug country

Although my county voted for Al Gore in 2000, the state as a whole is pretty repug. I don't need anyone campaigning at my door; they will not be welcomed. Besides, I'm out in the country where no one bothers me anyway. I can just see a Dean supporter coming to my door and insisting to get the last word in. You notice I'm not saying this about Kerry supporters or Clark supporters. The Kucinich supporters would be thanked, but sent away.

[indigo32]

66. Well a word of advice

I'd take what I read here with a grain of salt. There are people here with agendas, some obvious, some not so obvious.....
Vote for whomever you like... but please don't let the naysayers discourage you about our candidates. They are ALL worthy.

[xJlM]

69. Any one of them is an improvement over Bush*

What gets me is, how can anyone defend this? Statements to the press are a matter of record. Some folks seem to have blinders on

[w4rma]

73. Do an archeological dig as extensive as they are digging into Dean's life

And something on EVERY candidate will be found. This list above is based on 7+ year old statements, nit picks, word parsings and mischaracterisations.

IMHO, Dean is ultra-clean. They have *nothing* serious to smear him with.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

83. 7+ years old statements?

See post 75, post 76, post 79, and post 81,

[w4rma]

95. Exactly. And also nit picks, word parsings and mischaracterisations (n/t)

[Pez]

59. dean has more positions than the kama sutra

we need a president who has experience (how about oh, about 35 years fighting for democratic values?), vision, knows where he stands and can articulate his positions in a debate. otherwise the pukes will trample us in 04.

-=Kerry-2K4=-

[Tim The Enchanter]

65. How many issues has John Kerry flip-flopped on?

"But Kerry tends to waffle on big issues. He seemed to object to Bush's rush to war with Iraq, yet he voted for the October resolution that provided the White House with a flimsy excuse for launching a pre-emptive war against a sovereign state."

http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/nichols/46521.php

SENATOR KERRY CALLS CANDIDATE KERRY “IRRESPONSIBLE” ON WMD
John Forbes Kerry’s 72 Hour Flip-Flop

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research061903.htm

"Medical marijuana fans are accusing presidential contender Sen. John Kerry of flip-flopping on the issue to the point where he now essentially embraces the Bush administration's position."

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v03/n1223/a05.html?178

"John Kerry Has Long Supported Free Trade Agreements …
• In the US Senate, John Kerry voted for virtually every free trade treaty that has come before him, including: NAFTA, GATT, Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China and the Andean Trade bill.

… But Kerry Backed Away From Free Trade This Summer.
• In Iowa, Kerry claimed “a sea change” over the Clinton years has made him question his views on free trade. The Associated Press reported: “Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry conceded that he had voted for trade agreements during the Clinton administration, but argued that he now opposes expansion of those agreements. ‘During the Clinton years I voted for trade, but we have seen a sea change over those years,’ Kerry said.” "

http://www.politicsus.com/presidential%20press%20releases/Lieberman/092503c.htm

Kerry Flip-Flops, too, on the Eve of His Announcement

"Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, a Democratic candidate for president who has campaigned heavily in Florida for cash and votes, appeared to shift his stance on the trade embargo with Cuba on Sunday, telling a national television audience that he now supports keeping sanctions in place."

http://www.bigleftoutside.com/archives/000094.php

Yesterday, speaking in New Hampshire, Kerry told an audience that President Bush "misled every one of us" and that Bush had promised him that the President would build a an international coalition against Saddam Hussein. Then Kerry accused President Bush of waging a war based on 'questionable intelligence'.

But just five years ago, Kerry warned on the Senate floor of Hussein's WMD program, and that Hussein was an imminent threat. To the point that the Unites States may have to 'go it alone'.

http://political.linnwood.org/election_2004/000409.html

[FubarFly]

77. But of course only Dean's "flip-flops" matter to Kerry supporters

who don't understand the irony of their hypocrisy and double standards.

The fact is if "flip flops" were a primary disqualification for political office holders, there wouldn't be enough qualified candidates left to become Sanitiation Supervisor in Peoria, let alone run for national office. "Flip-flopping" is a fact of life for a politician. Don't believe me? Then try to name me a politician who has an established record of public service as long as Howard Dean's who has never changed their mind, or altered their position on any issue. If you find one, I guarentee they will be the exception, not the rule. And if after that, if you still think Dean's perceived flip-flops are a "huge" issue, ask yourself, why isn't every other politician running for Presidents' policy contortions a similar issue? Because when up against this absurdly loose definition of "flip-flopping" each and every one of the candidates running for POTUS has a troublesome history of this irredeemable offense.

Charges of "flip-flopping" are the last refuge of cynical character assassins who have nothing better to snipe at. Nevermind the intellectual consistency...

[blm]

82. NYTimes already rebutted the waffle charge on Iraq. He did NOT waffle.

The speech Kerry made on the senate floor in 98 was BEFORE Clinton bombed in Iraq and likely the reason that few weapons are being found in 2003. No one KNEW what had been hit in 98 and what was still available to Saddam in 2003.

[killbotfactory]

89. I'd like to hear his 40-minute explanation he gave to the NYT

of why he didn't flipflop. It should be interesting.

[blm]

90. Tell us what science convinced you that Yucca Mt. was a good plan

to support Bush on, Dr.? What about the science that was given you by the environmentalists and other Democrats who urged you not to support Bush? Take your time.

What military experts told you that Tora Bora was successful and convinced you to support Bush over Gore and Kerry's criticisms at that time?

[mandyky]

74. Flip flopping vs changing ones mind

or evolving stances. Most of Dean's supposed flip flops were taken from comments made in 1995. How many people believe exactly what they believed 8 years ago? I see flip flopping as on Monday one saying one thing, but on weds., get wishy washy, and by friday totally reverse one's stance. There are things Dean has had to clarify - like the being fair-minded to Palestinians, etc. I have seen where he's changed his mind, due to behavior on someone else's behavior, such as Castro.

But please name an instance where Dean has "flip-flopped" in less than 8 years, or his clarifications were flip flops. (If you can)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. Here you go:

"We have to stop terrorism before peace negotiations"
http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.11.22/news3.html

said he didn't "believe stopping the terror has to be a prerequisite for talking."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/10/elec04.prez.dean.mideast/

[blm]

87. GOP ad in 2004.

40 times a day. Day in and day out for weeks.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

76. Here's another

Dean made headlines in March for vowing to attack any candidate that didn't commit to public financing like he was.
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Local/Story/61946.html
Then he made headlines in August for backing off his pledge:
http://www.beaufortgazette.com/24hour/politics/story/969954p-6802617c.html

It wasn't the first time he backtracked on such a pledge, he'd done so in an earlier governor's race. http://www.rutlandherald.com/News/Story/70402.html

And going even farther, he tried to permanently remove funding for Vermont's public financing system altogether.

Governor Dean's Plan to Remove Funding

Early on in the 2002 legislative session, Democratic Governor Howard Dean targeted the public financing provision of the law for elimination. VPIRG led the effort to preserve funding for public financing of qualifying candidates. The Governor claimed that the law was not working and therefore should not be funded until a final court decision has been reached. Working with Republicans, Progressives and Democrats, VPIRG was able to keep public financing alive (although hundreds of thousands of dollars were taken for other unrelated uses). Read more on this issue.
http://www.vpirg.org/campaigns/financeReform/cfr_page111.html

[blm]

86. And this will be a GOP ad.

40 times a day.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

79. And another

TT: You?d reverse Bush?s tax cut, I gather?

Dean: Not all of it, almost all of it...
http://www.txtriangle.com/archive/1049/coverstory.htm

But Dean publicly changed his position Wednesday when he released the following statement in response to Bush's signing of a new $350 billion tax-cut package: "We must repeal the entire package of cuts - both those signed today and those passed in 2001."
http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/21393032.html

[blm]

85. And this will be a GOP ad in 2004.

40 times a day.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

81. And yet another

"I am not among those who say that America should never use its armed forces unilaterally. In some circumstances, we have no choice. In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred."
--2/17/02
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html


He said he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approved the move and backed it with action of its own.

"They have to send troops," he said.
--2/22/03
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/5236485.htm

[blm]

84. And this will be a GOP ad in 2004.

Repeated daily 40 times a day. To the tune of 250 million dollars.

[Mass_Liberal]

91. I know youre a kerry person so

strike unilateral action in Iraq, and the Bush tax cuts straight off the list.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

92. Why?

Your point escapes me. Could you please elaborate?

[gully]

93. Dean is not an idealogue, he weighs every issue and can come down

in the middle at times.

It's a bit complex for some people to embrace the gray in certain situations and see that every issue deserves a close yet fair examination. Actually, it's a typical cognitive distortion called "all or nothing thinking."

http://daphne.palomar.edu/di/cds.htm#cogdis

Thankfully Dean doesn't suffer from this mental imparity.

All the more reason I support him.

GO DEAN :toast:



Sorry, logged in under old user name :)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

94. Dean is the opposite of an idealogue, he's a demagogue.

He seems to have no overarching principles whatsoever. It's all about saying whatever will please the audience in front of him.

[mzmolly]

96. Again I say "cognitive distortion"

Dean is a thinking persons candidate. People who see issues as complex and not a cartoon image (per Bill Clinton's recent appearance at the Kennedy Center). Strange, after my post I went up and watched an appearance of Billy C, and he spoke about this very issue.

Go DEAN!!!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

98. Maybe if you repeat it enough you can hypnotize yourself.

[Ambassador Hope]

97. All of them flip flop

name one that does not do it.