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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 02:18 PM
Original message
Kerry's explanation for his war vote - a summary
I'd like to thank Dr. Funkenstein for pointing me to this link, http://www.johnkerry.com/site/PageServer?pagename=statement_iraq_2002_1009

which is Kerry's statement on his vote in Iraq. Disclaimer: Kerry is not my first choice for the nomination, but I think he has an excellent record, and would make an excellent nominee. This particular vote is something I have a hard time reconciling with my otherwise pretty good opinion of Kerry. (And all of the other Democratic congresspeople who voted for it).

I've gone through the statement paragraph by paragraph and tried to summarize the main points in it with as little editorialization as possible on my part. I haven't quite succeeded in keeping my voice out of it, but the attempt is below.


P1: Saddam is "pursuing weapons" and "attempting to develop" nuclear weapons and unmanned airborne vehicles.

P2: Eventually, Saddam will probably confront the civilized world again.

P3: Saddam miscalculates a lot.

P4: Saddam is a very bad person who has hurt a lot of people.

P5: All this is not a cause to go to war, but it is scary.

P6: Because of all of these things, the world is right to try to keep Saddam away from WMD.

P7: Saddam has had time to try to develop WMD in the last four years.

P8: We were concerned about this situation 4 years ago. Bush hasn't seemed concerned.

P9: Bush should have used the international coalition after 9/11 to disarm Iraq. Raising this question before congressional elections weakens his case because it politicizes it.

P10: Instead of working to disarm Saddam, Bush wants invasion and regime change, and they can't even agree on a justification for for war. Bush's bellicosity raises questions.

P11: Even Republicans and military personnel are rightfully asking obvious questions about our intentions.

P12: The threat from WMDs has to be proven and war should be our last resort. We need to work with our allies and make it clear that was is an option, albeit our last option.

P13: Bush has been forced to work with Congress and the UN, and also to go to war only to disarm Iraq.

P14: Arms inspections will legitimize our conflict with Iraq to the rest of the world.

P15: Now we can work together to contain Saddam.

P16: WMD + Saddam would be a bag thing, he is weasel-ly, and it is possible that he has or is working towards them.

P17: Saddam is definitely working to get WMD. He probably has some.

P18: It is possible Saddam is working to get nukes.

P19: We are pretty sure he is working to get nukes.

P20: We all want Saddam gone, but unless he has WMDs we shouldn't go to war.

P21: The threat from Saddam to the US is not imminent, but thinking about Saddam with WMDs and possibly working with terrorists is scary. We should work with our allies to inspect and disarm him, and multilateral force should be used to back this up if necessary.

P22: Some Democrats were going to completely capitulate on their constitutional responsibilities, but we have forced Bush to work with us and the UN.

P23: We have limited Bush to using force in Iraq, and have not called for regime change.

P24: Technically, Bush has our authority to enforce any UN resolutions Iraq doesn't follow, but we all agree this is about WMD.

P25: Bush has rejected being limited to WMD as a causus belli, but we were able to make him go the UN.

P26: I really really hope Bush doesn't act unilaterally. I vigorously oppose him doing so.

P27: I support using force against the threat of WMD in Iraq as a last resort. I trust Bush to act multilaterally.

P28: My vote is for multilateral force against Iraq if inspections don't work. I'm trusting Bush to work with the UN.

P29: I will speak out if he doesn't work with the UN. I will not support a unilateral war against Iraq if the threat is not proven and multilateral efforts are still possible.

P30: This vote is restricted to Iraq. The threat is not imminent, but Saddam's arsenal is deadly. The argument for war is not that Iraq is a threat, but that Saddam has to disarm. Congress has not endorsed "preemptive" war.

P31: This isn't the last word on how to disarm Iraq.

P32: We should try to get rid of WMDs with inspections first, though I doubt that will work.

P33: This effort against Iraq, whether inspections or force, should be multilateral, which means we need to prove our case to our allies.

P34: We must make sure we have a solid post-war plan in place for Iraq, unlike our efforts in Afghanistan. This is going to be costly, if we do it, and nobody is talking about that.

P35: This bill will pass whether I vote for it or not. I blame Saddam Hussein if it comes to war.

P36: We are all united to take away Saddam's WMD. Bush has to keep the people behind him by not leading us into a quagmire. Force needs to be thoroughly and exhaustively justified. But this vote is meant to scare Saddam into submitting to inspections.



So what can we note about this statement? I find it filled with well-thought-out sense. We should go for increased inspections, then work multilaterally, etc. etc. Kerry is careful to almost never actually say that Saddam has WMD. It is only in Paragraph 30 where he refers to the "deadliness of Saddam's arsenal" when he actually comes out and states the threat as real, not just potential. He lays out his case very plainly.

But here is my problem with this: Kerry lays out his reasons for his vote, what they mean, what he expects from Bush. But Bush and the administration have betrayed Kerry on almost every one of his demands. For example:

Kerry says the existence of the WMD has to be proven before we go to war. This was not done.

Kerry says we have to be careful to work closely with our allies every step of the way. This was not done.

Kerry says the UN has to be respected. This was not done.

Kerry says disarming Hussein must be the only cause for war. Our "cause" for war has been drifting for weeks and weeks.

Kerry says we need a good, decent post-war plan. We had none.

Kerry says we should not invade unilaterally. We did that (except for our small "coalition").

Kerry says he doesn't approve force for other countries in the Gulf region, only Iraq. The Bushies have been threatening Iran and Syria almost since "Mission Accomplished".

Kerry voted for this bill to authorize force under some circumstances, saying he would hold Bush to his standards, but the bill didn't hold any (legal) consequences for Bush if he didn't follow those standards. In essence, Kerry said, "I'll vote for this bill, but if Bush doesn't do things the right way, I'll be really angry". Because Bush didn't give a sh*t whether Kerry was angry, he went and screwed Kerry over with Kerry's own vote.

Now far be it for me to decide what Kerry should get angry about. But if I had made this vote, and this speech, and then watched things proceed the way they have since then, I would be raising holy hell about this administration. Kerry said he would "vigorously oppose" Bush doing exactly what Bush did. Is he "vigorously opposing" these things? I've not heard him call Bush out on the carpet for his actions in forceful terms. I've heard Kerry make a couple of statements on the way this war was conducted, but he should be shouting from the heavens. Instead, he seems to be remaining collegial. He should be pissed - at least as much as I am.

Maybe he knew this is the way it would turn out anyway. After all, Kerry knows the way the Bush Family operates as well as any of us. Maybe he wasn't surprised to see Bush toss all of his warnings out the window and do whatever he wanted to do anyway. I don't know.

But this is the biggest problem I have with Kerry, and I'm having a hard time with it. Maybe it isn't his vote so much as his (in my perception) silence about Bush's duplicity since then that bothers me. But he could have stood up and said, "This is the way I'd like to see us behave but I don't trust Bush to act in good faith, so I'll vote NO". As he said, it was going to pass anyway. Why not go on the record as saying you don't trust Bush to run the war correctly (which he clearly should not have)?

Or, having voted for the resolution, he should have been screaming from the ramparts against the war as soon as it was clear hostilities were going to commence, regardless of how multilateral they were.

I just can't get my head around his actions, votes, and words around Iraq. He clearly had good intentions here, but could not think of (or didn't want to think of) any way to enforce those intentions.

In the end, he voted to give Bush the latitude to forget about inspections and use unilateral force to try to achieve regime change, which is completely in opposition to what Kerry wanted (multilateral inspections/force for disarmament).

Can't Kerry come out and say this war was a total disaster? It is clear in this statement that he thought war waged in this way, for this purpose, with this horrible of an outcome, was the wrong war. Why won't Kerry be the "anti-war" candidate? Bush has handed him a huge platter of issues.

I hope I'm not being too unfair to Kerry - maybe he is shouting about this and the media are just ignoring him. But it looks like he got played by the Bush's, and I expect him to either denounce his own vote, or to denounce Bush's handling of the situation LOUDLY and CLEARLY.



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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Then you missed this from last month:
Edited on Wed Jul-09-03 03:04 PM by blm
http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/061903A.shtml

Kerry Says Bush Misled Americans on War 
    By Ron Fournier
    Associated Press

    Wednesday 18 June 2003

    LEBANON, N.H. (AP) Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said Wednesday that President Bush broke his promise to build an international coalition against Iraq"s Saddam Hussein and then waged a war based on questionable intelligence.

    "He misled every one of us," Kerry said. "That"s one reason why I"m running to be president of the United States."

    Kerry said Bush made his case for war based on at least two pieces of U.S. intelligence that now appear to be wrong that Iraq sought nuclear material from Africa and that Saddam"s regime had aerial weapons capable of attacking the United States with biological material.

    Still, Kerry said it is too early to conclude whether or not war with Iraq was justified. There needs to be a congressional investigation into U.S. intelligence on Iraq, he said.

    "I will not let him off the hook throughout this campaign with respect to America"s credibility and credibility to me because if he lied he lied to me personally," he said.

 >>>>>
    Kerry supported the war and said Wednesday, "I"m glad Saddam Hussein is gone." But the Massachusetts senator has criticized the president"s diplomatic efforts. He that concern Wednesday saying Bush had alienated U.S. allies in the runup to war.

    As for the question about U.S. intelligence, Kerry said he has led the call for a congressional investigation and pledged, "We will get to the bottom of this."

 >>>>>
    Addressing senior citizens in Hanover later in the evening, Kerry said he supported a congressional investigation because it was not clear whether Bush acted on poor, distorted or politicized intelligence.

    "I don"t have the answer," he said. "I want the answer and the American people deserve the answer. I will get to the bottom of this."
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Rightwing backlash on comment...
http://dynamic.washtimes.com/print_story.cfm?StoryID=20030623-084135-3490r

Public policy light weights
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published June 24, 2003


------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Watching the Democratic presidential candidates as they try to fashion a coherent critique of President Bush's policies can be a painful process these days. Take, for example, Sen. John Kerry, who is seeking to manufacture a case that President Bush misled the American people about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction (WMDs).
    "He misled every one of us," Mr. Kerry said in a campaign speech last week. "That's one reason why I am running to be president...because if he lied, he lied to me personally."
    Asked about Mr. Kerry's charge on "Fox News Sunday," Sen. Jay Rockefeller, West Virginia Democrat, who is vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, strongly suggested that his Massachusetts colleague's remarks were not supported by the facts.
    "The senator is running for president," Mr. Rockefeller replied when asked about Mr. Kerry's attack on Mr. Bush. "I make a distinction between people who are running for president and therefore need to capture attention, and what we on the Intelligence Committee have to do, which is to get the facts."
>>>>>>    
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. the WMD lies
while awful, are hardly the point here.

Kerry voted for one course of action, and specifically denounced another course of action.

Bush took the second course.

Kerry left himself with no recourse in that event, except that he would "vigorously oppose" Bush if he did things the wrong way.

He should have been "vigorously opposing" Bush and this war for months now, regardless of WMDs. What about inspections? What about multilateralism? What about having a post-war plan?

Kerry doesn't seem to want to stand up for himself, and his integrity.

He voted for "force", applied in a certain way under certain circumstances. Bush didn't do that. Now Kerry is painted as having voted for Bush's use of force. Wouldn't you be pissed about that? Wouldn't you be in vocal opposition to it?

I just can't understand the guy - it's like every bad prediction and warning he made in that statement became true. Why wasn't he shouting about it?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. He did...many times...
Edited on Wed Jul-09-03 03:27 PM by blm
in fact he specifically stated that the Bush White House performed "the worst diplomatic effort in the history of the United States."

There were many other statements, too. I don't understand why you are not familiar with them, since they had been posted many times over the last 9 months.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I remember that quote.
Again, not really inspiring. And also that the press turned on him about it, and the rest of the Democrats couldn't stand up in solidarity with him. What a surprise.

But look, taking all of those things together, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume, given what Kerry says above, and given the way the war was conducted, that Kerry should come out as "against this war"? Wouldn't that be a reasonable assumption given all that?

Either Kerry is "against this war" and the way it was conducted and is being mis-portrayed by the media about it, or he is not "against this war" and the way it was conducted.

In the first case, I'd think he would want to come out and be on the record as being against the war - in strong, vigorous, LOUD terms. I have not heard him do this.

In the second case, he'd have to be brain damaged.

I would expect him to be a leading anti-Iraq II voice, and that is just not the way he is coming across. Are there other quotes out there where he actually says, "if we don't conduct this war legally, then I totally oppose it". What would be wrong with saying that? Why hasn't he said it.

Of course Bush's diplomacy sucks. What is Kerry going to do about it? Critizing Bush is a great first step, but how about opposing a war which is the exact opposite of the one you (potentially) voted for?
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. He was shouting...
In every way that legislators can...

Unfortunately, they stopped allowing senators to carry, guns, knives, canes or other blunt objects into the Capitol over 150 years ago.

If you understand ANYTHING about constitutional law, that act has a large amount of recourse, but it will take the correct time and place and circumstances for that recourse embedded withn the act to be activated. Already, the circumstances in the act are beginning to produce the necessary recourse.

AS I said, this act is not an authorization in any sense. Congress has not authority to authorize the use of force or not.

They can only set conditions for their support.

DId Bush meet the conditions set in the act?

Do you beleive he did...

He does...

but did he...

If he did not, the recourse left to Kerry within the act becomes legally obvious.

All that is left is t wait for timing and circumstance.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. maybe
he should start by coming out against the war. That would be a good start.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #50
71. Again, you don't get it.
Kerry is NOT a dove. He has said he was againt Bush's war, not war with Iraq under circumstances that complied with international law.

Why should he state that he was against using force in Iraq, when he never was against using it to begin with. He has stated, over and over again, that he does not oppose the use of force as a last resort. He as stated that Bush did not use it as a last resort, but as a first resort. You just are not paying attention to what he is completely saying, This is another Dean tactic.

They claim that Kerry is doing a flip flop by stating he was against what Bush did,and that meant that he went from supporting the war to being against it.

Again,massive misrepresentation from the Dean camp, and selective deafness on DU. He always supported the use of force, but again, only in the most extreme circumstances.

A nation has the right to defend itself in extreme circumstances in Kerry's thought. He has not agreed that the circumstances have been extreme enough in this case.

He never claimed he was against the use of force in Iraq. Ever. Just the circumstances in which he would have engaged in the use of force would have been MUCH different.

He has been consistant in this since 1998.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #71
83. I don't WANT Kerry to be a dove
he isn't, and neither are any of the other candidates I support.

I WANT Kerry to be against THIS PARTICULAR WAR, which has been carried out exactly opposite to what he said he wanted. He spelled out in very specific terms what it was he wanted from Bush, and Bush has done just the things he said he didn't want.

This war, FROM KERRY'S EXPLICITLY STATED VIEWS at the time of the vote, is a monster f@ckup.

I want Kerry to say that. Then, and only then, will he be consistent with himself.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. They you hve already gottn what you wanted.
Kerry has repeatedly said that he does not support Bush's actions without U.N. co-operation, and without proof that imminent threat to the U.S. existed .What do you want him to do, tatoo it to his penis and then stand up in from of the President and Laura and flash them?

Kerry is not Dean. He does not baffle with bullshit. He is going to DO rather than talk about doing.

Let's look at the candidates. Dean is ALL talk, HE has actually DONE very little that has been courageous, either politically or personally, unless he had absolutely NO other choice. Dean signed "Civil Union" legislation that he either had to sign, or face contempt of court charges from the Vermont Supreme Court.

Kerry on the other hand says very little, and then catches presidents breaking the law, and has had their minions tried for doing so.

BCCI, and Iran Contra are two examples. Kerry did not run around protesting about what he thought the president was doing, before he had evidence. And after he had evidence. He demanded and got investigations.

I know which type of candidate I prefer. Do you?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-03 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #88
97. You are perverocating
I have posted twice now in detail as to how the Constitution of Vermont could have been amended. You have read that thread and replied. To now post that his only other option on Civil Unions was to be held in contempt (and I want a citation of that contempt power too) is just plain dishonest.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-03 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. And you are stating something
Edited on Sun Jul-13-03 02:51 PM by Nicholas_J
That HAD to be done BEFORE the Vermont Supreme Court Decision, and NOT after it.

Dean NEVER suggested amending the constitution, and republicans could not amend it to make gay marriage ILLEGAL, after the act, becasue such and amendment itself would have been unconstitutional.

It is obvious that you do not have the slightest idea about how legislation works.

There is no RIGHT TO CHOOSE amendment in the federal constitution, because Roe v. Wade, made such a constitution moot. It is the courts who decide this alone. Once they rule, any attempt to change the constitution becomes moot.

AS in the partial birth abortion ban. Congress could not ban abortion, so they pulled this partial birt abortion ban. Which the U.S. Supreme Court already declared unconstitutional at the state level..


The constitution of Vermont could not have been amended to DENY rights to someone,after the court decision. Once the courts decide that this is unconstitutional. The very attempt to do so then becomes unconstitutional. All that can be done is to get a higher court to over-rule the original decision. Unless the case stipulates that this case has been settled with prejudice. That is a legal statement that the court considers the case final, and will here no further argument on the issue. Since marriage laws a states righrs, not a federally ceded power, the stae court decision is final, unless the court court overturns its own decision.

You do not understand the law.

It wouldd be the equvalent of trying to amend the constitution to make slavery legal again, or take away womens right so vote.

An amendment to the constitution to make civil unions constitutional again, would be useless. As the constitution cannot create SEPARATE classes or legal condition for different groups of people. They all have the SAME rights, or they all do not. The civil unions act itself is likely "UNCONSTITUTIONAL" and will likely eventually be found to be so, as it sets up separate but equal legislation. It will lilely eventually have to be struck from law, and gays allowed the SAME right to get a marriage license as non gays.

At any time prior do December of 1999. Dean could have asked for a civil union amendment, He did not. After the court decision, such and amendment could have faced a fight against it by gays, demanding EQUAL rights under the law, not separate but equal conditions.

Again, Dean took the politically safe route. HE always as, as he didnt want to alientate his main support in Vermont. Progressive Republicans not democrats.

You know, Dean is the only candidate wh hashad an orgainzation with the words "REPUBLICANS FOR" in front of his name.

There has never been a "Repubicans for Kucinich" organization. or "Republicans for Kerry". Or even God forbid,even "Republicans for Lieberman"


But there has ben a "Republicans for Dean" who supported his campaigns as governor. This group was sponsired by thirty very impartant Vermonmt Republicans.

Your argument is based on flawed legal reasoning.

You are attempting to turn the legislative system upside dowwn in order to try to spin Deans actions. It cannot be done. Once the Supreme Court ruled ONLY the Supremem COurt could chance the situation. An amendment would have been commentary AFTER THE FACT.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
87. You do not understand
Edited on Fri Jul-11-03 03:18 PM by Nicholas_J
Because you are not a lawyer...

Many anti-war, and particularly, pro-Dean people are misrepresenting the "Authorization of Use of Force Act of October 2, 2002". as a ONE WAR document, A document in which Cnngress abandoned it war powers under the constitution.

The document was a two way document, giving Bush the support he wanted from Congress, providing a political shield for backlash against going into the war under ANY pretext. If Bush agreed to accomplish certain, fixed goals before he went.

First of course was going to the U.N. to figure a diplomatic solution, exhausting ALL possible peaceful methods to gain Iraqi compliance to the resolutions signed at the end of the Gulf War.

Second, was to convinvce the U.N. to use progressive force is all diplomatic methods found to not accomplish the desired results.

Last, if and only if ALL of the aboved failed, and if there was valid proof that the Hussein Regime constituted a dire, impending, imminent threat to these U.S, its interests, its allies, and its citizens, the U.S. held the right to defend itself.

Everything in this act is a strict reiteration of the terms that exist in the Geneva Convention, and Nuremberg, and Hague conventions, as well as the U.N. Charter itself.

Bush agreed to the terms, by signing, rather than vetoing the act, but when he disccovered that Powell was not going to be able to simply slicker the Security Council with a Powerpoint slide show and a few fuzzy photo's, he decided to slip back to the Wolfowitz/Rumsfeld faction, and re-iterate the constitutiol stance of the president's obligation to protect the U.S. from threat without congressional support.

This is not an new situation. Since World War II,U.S. troop deployment and stationing ALL over the world, something that the founding fathers did not anticipate has occurred. The Constitution provides that Congress form a military, pay for it, and Declare War, which is a document that changes political and diplomatic status between nations, but is not the element which actually begins military action.The president does that alone.

Before WWII, with troops stationed all over the world, and a tiny military force, and a smaller military budget, before the president could order troops to fight. A president had to get Congress to cough up the money to pay for it.
After WWII, the military budget was less than 10 billion dollars. The military needed to invent a NEW threat. Lo! the Cold War. And the birth of the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned of.

Vietnam...a long "NON-WAR" that congress never supported. As soon as Vietnamization occurs. congress passes the "War Powers Resolution". Nixon Vetoes it. It passes over Nixons Veto. But all the act can state is that the president must consult with congress regarding planned military action. It cannot tell him that he cannot engage in such action, as this is a constitutionally granted power given the president. All presidents since have decided that the act is unconstitutional. Even just asking that the president "CONSULT" with congress is considered unconstitutional, by every president since the act resolution has been signed. Ad the Supreme Court has refused to respond to hundred of briefs sent by senators and congressment to rule on it.

The latest Iraq Act is another attempt by congress to push this envelope. It is filled with language that set terms for the president to perform before he gets congressional support to go to war, not permission. Biden-Lugar limited itself to ONE thing that the president must prove before Cogress would support the president. The Iraq Act was a new attempt to push the envelope in the concurrent areas of war powers. for just ONE military engagement. The War Powers Resolution was an attempt to limit the president in ALL situation,s and has failed, as Conress cannot take away constitutional powers given to the president.

They have now tried to get a president to agree to give HIS constitutional powers to order use of force, in order to gain congressional suport for doing so.

He decided he had been outsmarted by Cogress, and just, decided not to abide by the terms of the act he signed into law.

If the anti-war movement had and consistancy, or relentlessness in the cause of peace, they would be petitioning for a new constitutional convention, in which this failure in the Constitution can be changed by re-writing the constitution to deal with the changes in the world that have made it possible for a president to hot wire a war, rather than ask for the keys to the car.


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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #87
105. I know that my miserable non-intellect pales compared to that of lawyers,
but I'll try to express my poorly-thought out argument to you one more time. (Like a dog pushing its head against a locked doggy-door, I seem to have more persistance than brains).

It doesn't matter to me what many anti-war people misconstrue the vote to have meant.

In fact, let's pretend that the vote never happened. Let's just say that everyone had a chance to express their opinions before the war (inevitably) was started by our warmonger-in-chief.

Kerry said we should act multilaterally, through the UN, that we should inspect and make sure of the weapons, that we shouldn't go in alone with no UN-mandate, etc. etc.

Dean (for one example, since you seem so insistant to drag him into this) says essentially the same thing, in support of a slightly different proposal.

So Dean and Kerry are on the same page, apart from some minor details. They agree (rightly) that the US shouldn't act like some liquored-up cowboy in pursuit of some combination of old vendetta and oil-lust.

Then, Bush proceeds to act like some liquored-up cowboy in pursuit of some combination of old vendetta and oil-lust.

Dean denounces Bush's war. (and by this I mean the war as it actually occurred, not as how any sane person might have wished it to occur, with the backing of our allies, etc.).

Kerry does not.

What does this tell us about Kerry? - and I will remind you again that I really really do hope that Kerry is as infallible, incorruptible, and omniscient as you seem to think he is, because if he is our nominee he will need to be.

And by "Kerry does not", let me spell out exactly what I mean. I mean that Kerry did not denounce this war so loudly and clearly that no one could misunderstand that he was actually for this war (that he has not/did not do this is evidenced by lots of less political people thinking that he gave Bush tacit approval with his war vote - so you see, it doesn't necessarily matter what his vote actually, legally means - it also matters what it is perceived<\b> to mean). I mean that Kerry did not denounce this war so loudly and clearly that FOX made him the Ace of Spades in their "Axis of Weasels" cards, or denounce him as a traitor. I mean that he did not denounce this war so loudly and clearly that articles about him being "too liberal to elect" or comparing him to McGovern were printed. The absence of all of these things is evidence that IF Kerry actually opposes Bush's reckless use of force, he has not made that abundantly clear to anyone.

It is as if you want me to believe that Kerry is against this war inside of his head, where he shares his deep thoughts with himself. But I tell you sir, that that is NOT enough for me on this particular issue. You write as if not only has Kerry done the right thing about the war, but there isn't anything else he could possibly do to stop Bush. I say, he could speak up.

If you are trying to win me as a Kerry supporter, your condescension and obfuscation on this point is hurting your cause.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #105
116. Again
You are presupposing that Kerry is a dove...

He is not...

If evidence existed that there were WMD's in violation of SADDAMS own contractual agreement to not produce them, Kerry would have first, exhausted ALL diplomatic means to get them to stop doing so and destroy existing products, Second, if being polite did not work, use force with a U.N. sanctioned coalition, third, if any evidence existed that Saddam was planning to or was working with those planning to DIRECTLY use such WMD's in order to DIRECTLY atack the U.S., its interests, or its citizens overseas, the U.S. reserves the right to protect its soverignty adn its citizens.

Kerry's logic has been consistant in this regard.

It is the same logic that those who beleive they have the right to own guns use There are people out there who try to break the rules and rob my home, rape my wife, kill my family, and the police do not always protect everyone. Therefore I reserve the right to own a weapon which I may use to protect myself.(Though statistic prove I am more likely to blow my own foot off than protect my family)

Kerry's statements have been constant reiteration in substance and context of ALL international law, and all international agreement.

He has laid it out in FLAWLESS legal terms. Completely internationally sound, and if Bush had followed those flawless recommendations in the Iraq act, he wouldnt have his thumb up his ass right now trying tot explain bad intelligence, George Tenet trying to foist the responsibility on some low grade CIA analyst. Condoleeza claming that they didnt know what the lower level CIA people were saying.

Sorry, Kerry is a lawyer, not a loud mouth doctor. I have worked for both.

Lawyers are smarter, and better prepared to handle stuff like this.

Dean and Kerry are not on the same page. Deans frequently doenst know what page he is on. Kerry is an atorney and very well knows international law in these areas by now.

If Dean was as good at medicine as he is at making up his mind, most of his patients would have died of the disease before he decided what it was.

On January 31, Dean told Ron Brownstein of the Los Angeles Times that "if Bush presents what he considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization."

And then on Feb. 20, Dean told Salon.com that "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."

But a day later, he told the Associated Press that he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approves the move and backs it with action of its own. "They have to send troops," he said.

Four days later on PBS's News Hour with Jim Lehrer, Dean said United Nations authorization was a prerequisite for war. "We need to respect the legal rights that are involved here," Dean said. "Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them."

http://www.topdog04.com/000071.html
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. THERE's the old Nicholas_J
that I love so well.

Do you even read my posts?

Of course I do not presuppose that Kerry is a dove.

You have nothing to add to this. All of Dean's positions that you outline are self-consistent, and in fact consistent with Kerry's positions as well. They both wanted multilateral pressure to force some verification of the weapons and threat. They both favored UN action over unilateral action. They both were right.

As far as all lawyers being smarter than all doctors, you are as right as you ever are.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. My Head Hurts Trying To Follow This
I'll just add my two-cents to your "liquored-up cowboy" narrative. Yes, Bush was acting like John Wayne with tourette's, but Saddam was screwing around with the UN, as well. Kerry qualified his statements to make sure that nobody misconstrued that he would tolerate such shenanigans, but that he would not look like an ass doing so. Bush may have out-bad guy-ed Saddam (no small task), but that didn't make Saddam a good guy.

Where Dean focused on Bush's failure to make the case, Kerry gave roughly equal time to Bush's failure and Saddam's hi-jinks with the inspectors. This could easily be construed as being less forceful, or waffling, or lawyer-ly, or sitting on the fence.

Although it may not have been the rabble-rousing more appropriate to the times, I think it was at least honest in depicting the situation.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. Dean kept on changing his statements
Edited on Thu Jul-17-03 07:36 PM by Nicholas_J
WE should go with U.N. support, we should not go with U.N. support, and back and forth.

Kerry laid out the order in which he thought things should be done way back in September, and has not changed his ideas since.

On top of it, criticising the other candidates for takingthe same stance he later on started advocating.

It is not so much that Dean and Kerry's stances were similar, but that Dean kept on having to play catch up with the other candidates, Kerry in particular.

First he supports Biden Lugar, way back in September, which was quite limited in scope, and finally he catches up to the others in February, agreeing to EVERY aspect of the Iraq resolution, while still criticising Kerry for his position.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. that wacky old Dean
he just can't make up his mind. First he says that Bush's war is a mistake, then he says Bush's war is a big mistake, then he says Bush's war is a HUGE mistake.

Well, Dr. Dean? Which one is it? They can't all be true!

Unlike the Unwavering Kerry (TM) who opposes unilateral regime change in the fall, and continues to give his tacit approval to unilateral regime change in the spring. The man is like a rock!
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. I think it was very honest as well
Edited on Thu Jul-17-03 10:28 PM by ProfessorPlum
I don't have any real problems with Kerry's statement accompanying his vote on the Iraq resolution. It seems like a relatively accurate summation of where he thought everyone was at, and what he thought they should do about it.

All the rest of this stuff is like a masochistic game I'm playing with myself and an illogical devil's advocate. Kind of like debating a mental patient.

Cheers, doc.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #121
124. Conditional Regime Change
I may be mistaken on this, but I think Kerry's position on regime change was only if Saddam refused to cooperate with the disarmament process. I'm not sure if this jibes with international law, but that was my perception. As Saddam was squirrelly but fairly compliant (in the final months, at least), Kerry pushed for redoubled inspections but when the process broke down Kerry said Saddam brought it on himself.

As a reminder, the devastating sanctions on Iraq were the result of Saddam failing to comply with UN demands to disarm. He would rather his people starve than comply. This does not justify the invasion nor the sanctions, but does give you an idea of who was being dealt with.

The enforcement of inspections and disarmament as a means of ending these sanctions could have been the rationale behind US pressure, but Bush presented a kaleidoscope of reasons, many of which ran directly against international law - namely pre-emption and regime change.

The reason the administration settled on, the reason for withdrawing inspectors immediately was the imminence of the threat Iraq posed. What body determined this imminence is the heart of the current controversy.
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-18-03 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #121
127. following the arguments
I find it funny that you think Nicholas doesn't read YOUR posts, as you so clearly do not read any of the well reasoned arguments that he presented.

Nicholas_J: point 1, point 2, point 3, point 4, therefore, xyz.

ProfessorPlum: huh huh, cuz he isn't LOUD like Dean, so he must be wrong.

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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #127
133. Nicholas_J
may be setting up self-consistent arguments, but they don't have anything to do with the heart of the question I'm asking. Which is:

Kerry spells out in great detail what kind of war should be avoided.
Bush gets us into exactly that kind of war.
Kerry "approves" of the war by not coming out against it.

Why? As Nicholas_J states below, silence is taken to mean tacit approval, and Kerry has been silent on this. Yeah, he said Bush was a tremendous diplomatic failure. We all know that. We also can assume that Bush was never really interested in being a diplomatic success, and Kerry should know that too. So what is Kerry going to do about being dragged into a war like this?

None of my posts have anything to do with Kerry being a dove or not. His actions could apply equally well to any action taken by the government. Why won't he oppose something that is wrong? This is really the heart of a lot of people's questions about the curious nature of congressional Democrats - things happen in this country which are clearly wrong, but they don't seem to oppose them. Whether they actually oppose them or not is a subject of debate. What is obviously true is that they definitely do not APPEAR to oppose wrong actions. Why?

This case is just an example of that, but it is an important one, and one in which Kerry has written out his thoughts so that we know exactly where he stands (or at least where he stood) in the fall. But his actions since then appear to be just those of someone who didn't want to be called "un-patriotic" by Faux. I can live with that - it is not very brave (and yes I know that Kerry is personally very brave) but it is what it is. I can live with it. I just don't understand it very well.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Great
but don't those quotes seem rather weak to you? I mean, the guy totally got crapped on by these thugs.

"He misled every one of us". True, true. Kerry might consider calling Bush a "liar". He might point out why.

Also "I'm glad Saddam Hussein is gone." Well, so am I, but that isn't what this war was supposed to be about. Kerry specifically opposed war for regime change. He only supported war for disarmament.

"if he lied" (my emphasis)

It doesn't matter if the intelligence was cooked or not - that wouldn't have affected how Kerry voted for the war to be conducted. He spelled out what he thought were the Bushites intentions going into the war. He was "lied to" back in the fall, when he was getting ready to make this vote (Powell's implication that this war was all about disarming Saddam, for example), and he should have known it then, not still trying to "get to the bottom of it" now!

Please, don't just put up lame shit - I need to know how you are actuallly reconciling his actions with his words. Your post has only made me angrier and more confused about his position and intentions.

The lies about WMD shouldn't matter that much to Kerry - if he was as fooled by the intelligence as Bush, then they were in the same boat. It is how Bush conducted his attack on Saddam, from start to finish, that goes against everything Kerry outlined above.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. This was from a MONTH ago, PP.
"Kerry said he supported a congressional investigation because it was not clear whether Bush acted on poor, distorted or politicized intelligence."


Don't judge what he said then based on what we've learned the past week.

Don't you see that there were intel agents feeding bad info to Clinton during his term? Clinton shared that info with people like Kerry who formed their beliefs back then. Even Scott Ritter testified in front of Kerry in 98 that there were WMDs.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. yes
I'm saying, the WMD doesn't matter for Kerry's statement above. Let's assume that Hussein had all of that stuff, including nukes.

Kerry lays out a specific course of action for the country to take.

Bush thumbs his nose at Kerry, and does whatever he pleases with regard to Iraq.

This not only takes the country down the wrong path, but it makes it seem that Kerry voted to authorize Bush to do what he did, when Kerry specifically said not to.

Shouldn't Kerry be pissed about that? Shouldn't he be denouncing this war, and all the ways it was conducted which were diametrically opposed to what he said in this statement?

What kind of a leader is that? It has seemed like he made his vote, and then fell silent as Bush took it and used it to his own evil ends.

None of this has anything to do with the last week or even the last month. It has to do with Bush not following the gameplan Kerry laid out above.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. He didn't fall silent...
Edited on Wed Jul-09-03 03:37 PM by blm
He came out many times criticizing Bush and his actions, but, if you were unwilling to open those many threads when they were posted, please don't claim now that he "fell silent."

Thankfully Carville notices who has the substantive criticisms of Bush. I'm tired of supposedly well-informed people who really only hear what they want to hear.

Joe Klein in the Dec. New Yorker:
>>>>>>.
His great strength is his mastery of foreign affairs and military policy. His willingness to criticize the Bush Administration on these subjects has distinguished him from the other eminent Democrats who wandered the country during the recent election season, hoping to make a Presidential impression on the Party faithful. In fact, he often derided "a new conventional wisdom of consultants, pollsters, and strategists who argue . . . that Democrats should be the party of domestic issues only."

Kerry's criticism of the Bush foreign policy is meticulous and comprehensive. It begins with the Administration's gratuitously ideological diplomatic actions in the year before the September 11th terrorist attacks. On Bush's decision to simply walk away from the Kyoto global-warming treaty, for example, he told me, "One hundred and sixty nations spent ten years working to get to a certain place and the United States just stands up and dismisses it out of hand. The Administration doesn't say we're going to try to fix it, doesn't say we respect your work, doesn't say we're going to try to find the common ground where we do have some differences. It just declares it dead. Now, what do we think those presidents of those countries, those prime ministers and those finance ministers, those environmental ministers are? Are they all dumb? Are we telling them they are absolutely incapable of making judgments about science, that the ten years of work that they've invested in conference after conference, many of which I attended, was absolutely for naught? That makes us friends in the world?"

Kerry extends this argument beyond the usual liberal critique: the unilateralist approach, he says, damages America's ability to do the intelligence gathering and wage the unconventional warfare that are at the heart of an effective campaign against terrorists and rogue states. He is critical of both the Clinton and Bush Administrations for their uncertain, and too frequently unsubtle, use of American power. Although he voted against the Gulf War in 1991, he has supported military action against Iraq in the years since-indeed, he was a co-sponsor of the resolution that threatened force against Iraq in 1998, when Saddam Hussein sent the United Nations weapons inspectors home. But he is a critic of the Pentagon's old-fashioned Cold War doctrine of overwhelming air power, its overcautious use of ground troops, and its skepticism about the efficacy of unconventional war-fighting assets, like the Special Forces. Early on, he criticized the Bush Administration for its tactics in Afghanistan, its slapdash and unsuccessful effort to trap the Al Qaeda leadership at Tora Bora-and particularly its decision not to use American troops to surround the mountain redoubt. "When given the opportunity to destroy Al Qaeda, the President turned not to the best military in the history of man," he said in July, "but rather turned to Afghan warlords who only a week earlier were on the other side."

Kerry's foreign policy seems a muscular multilateralism: active, detailed engagement with the countries in the Middle East and elsewhere; less pompous rhetoric and more of the patient scut work-the diplomatic consultation, the building of direct relationships with local intelligence and police agencies-that will make an occasional use of force by America more palatable. There is an implication that much of the Bush Administration's bombast has been for domestic political consumption, an attempt to sound tougher than Bill Clinton did. "The Administration mistakes tough rhetoric for tough policy," Kerry told me. "They may gain short-term domestic advantage as a result, but they are damaging the long-term security of the country. This is a far more complicated world than the ideologues of the Administration care about or understand."

Finally, Kerry broadens his practical critique of Bush's foreign policy to add some vision. Specifically, he says that the President missed an opportunity, in the weeks after September 11th, to call the nation to a larger cause: energy independence. In October of 2001, Kerry proposed a concerted energy-conservation campaign, including higher fuel-efficiency standards in automobiles and a "Manhattan Project" to develop renewable sources of energy. "No American son or daughter should ever again be sent abroad to die for oil," he often says on the stump, invariably to ovations from the Democratic faithful.

This is a complicated message, and-except for the one sound bite-a difficult one to deliver at a political rally. But Kerry's knowledge and conviction, and the fact that his words sound different from the market-tested slogans that other Democrats were rehearsing this autumn, gave him a credibility that his competitors in the larval Presidential race were missing. For the first time in his career, he didn't seem precocious. "I think he's had a hell of a year," James Carville, the political strategist, said.. "Why? Because he's actually saying something. People do notice that, you know. The other thing is, 9/11 made the Commander-in-Chief part of the Presidency important again, and that's helped him, too, because of his military background. And, finally, he's not conflicted about this. He's not testing the waters. He's immersed in the waters. He's growing gills."
>>>>>>>
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. why hasn't the media
for example, painted him as a "vigorous opponent" of the war, then?

I know the media is totally unreliable. But this would be their way to try to smear him. If he really had been opposing the war, vigorously and loudly, wouldn't the media be trying to paint him (incorrectly) as some kind of hippy peacenik? The fact that they are not doing that leads me to surmise that he has given them no ammunition on that point. He has, in fact, NOT opposed the war vigorously and loudly, despite what he says above.

WHY?
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
65. hearing what you want to hear
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 05:36 PM by gottaB
It works both ways. Yesterday I checked out Kerry's web site to find what he had to say about Iraq now. That was before he posted his statement "John Kerry Challenges Bush to Face Truth on Iraq: Make Tough Choices to Win Peace," to which I'll return in a moment. What I saw yesterday was a laundry list of domestic issues, and it was really hard to see how he wasn't a Democrat running on "domestic issues only."

One address I read from the front page was his http://www.johnkerry.com/site/PageServer?pagename=spc_2003_0607">A New Patriotism for America. Now, there's some rousing strong rhetoric there, but.... it's like a laundry list of domestic issues, loosely tied1 to security concerns, and what it did have to say about war and war on terrorism--scroll down some-- left me with questions about his vision of power and political leadership.

"President Clinton said it best: the 2002 elections proved that strong and wrong beats weak and right. Well I am running for President to lead a Democratic Party that has a foreign policy that is strong and right," Kerry said. Do I need to pick that apart, or is it too obvious? To me it rings of facism, a confusion or melding of the ideas of popular will and military strength. Lest any Kerry boosters go ballistic here, note that I'm quite happy to discuss e.g. Kerry's proposals for militarizing civil service without resorting to the f-word. It's not the policy proposal, it's the political style and its underlying assumptions I'm questioning.

Oh, my reading of this is becoming too rarified. I'll put it aside for now.



1. He's made the case more cogently eslewhere.




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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #65
76. Go to his speeches link...
There is a lengthy Georgetown address where he outlines a foreign policy agenda. And earlier last year Joe Conason wrote a piece about Kerry that stated he was the only Democrat who was addressing the foreign policy issue. Funny, how the media kept us from hearing about the Democrats' views for so long.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #76
80. thanks
The Georgetown speech is brilliant, clearly establishing Kerry as the leader in foreign policy. It touches on more points than his remarks in the Senate, and answers a lot of questions I've had about what he's really thinking about war and peace. How could I not vote for him?

I'm a little uneasy blaming the media for Kerry's campaign message, on the other hand no I'm not. You have to ask if they didn't deliberately set out to portray Bush's War and its opposition in the crudest, wrongest, most theatrical terms imaginable. (Obviously I'm not talking about King Henry V.) BBC woke up to the fact that centcom was playing them, but what's happened to the US media? Makes you wonder who's playing whom.



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phillybri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for posting this....
Many people around here are acting as if Kerry just moved in lockstep with Bush on the war.

I wish he'd never voted for the war, but at the same time, I can't imagine discarding a great candidate because his voting record isn't 100% identical to what mine would be. (Patriot Act, etc...)

Kerry is the guy that will bring down the BFEE...
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. but in the end
his vote was the same as somebody who said, "I vote to give Bush full authority to do whatever he wants, under any circumstances." Because there has been no consequence for Bush for going back on Kerry for all his conditions.

Kerry hasn't held Bush to account for anything that I've heard! Why hasn't Kerry been yelling about all of the betrayal he has suffered by Bush's war actions all this spring?

Can someone please explain what he is thinking to me?
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tpub Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. Much needed
thanks! This will be added to the Kerry info I'm compiling now. I want to be as well-informed as possible when recruiting for Kerry MeetUP!

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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. but
how does this make Kerry out in a better light?

It's like Kerry's holding the keys to a car, and Bush wants to drive. Kerry says, "Look, I don't think you should drive, but I'll give you the keys if you always drive during daylight, never drink, always drive with a friend, and are careful about the laws".

Later that night, it is discovered that Bush has runover and killed a pedestrian while driving drunk, alone at midnight.

Bush declares his outing a great success, while Kerry seems to be sticking to his decision to give Bush the keys. I don't get it.

Kerry's record in other regards seems pretty solid to me. I just don't understand this.

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. Kerry TRUSTED Bush??? Why??
"P27: I support using force against the threat of WMD in Iraq as a last resort. I trust Bush to act multilaterally."

That's my issue with him (or any Dem) signing it. Bush is the OPPOSITION party. When dealing with an adversary, you put them into the smallest box possible. The war act does NOT do that. To say you were misled by your opponent is just silly.

I realize that it's a Republican controlled Congress. If they have the votes to pass legislation anyway, fine. My question is WHY would a Dem not simply say "It may not be a politically advantageous move right now since most people seem to support this war, but this is bad legislation. It gives too much discretion to the President and I'm not voting for it."?

My answer - Max Cleland. Not him specifically, but Max Cleland is a great example of what CAN happen if you stand up for your beliefs (part of the reason I don't understand why he's endorsing Kerry). Cleland is a true hero who was booted because Repubs spun his Patriot Act vote into proof that he wasn't a hero. He lost, but at least he stood up for what he believed.

I like a lot of Kerry's ideas, and I'm hardly a one-issue voter. I really don't feel that there's any way to rationalize either a vote for the Iraqi war or a vote in support of the Patriot Act.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. It was worth it to keep the UN as a viable part of the process.
Bush had the votes for straight war with NO restrictions. Kerry, Clinton, and other key senators negotiated to preserve the UN's relevance as an international institution. It worked...and now Bush is stuck with his record in front of the UN.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I don't agree
Bush is stuck with nothing and Kerry (and plenty of other Dems) are on the record as having given Congressional support for the war. There was nothing in the bill that forced Bush to work through the U.N., or even consult the U.N. Saying that Kerry voted for a bill that restricted Bush is simply not true.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Wrong...Bush made his promises
to go to the UN with evidence. Both Clinton and Kerry emphasized those promises in their floor speeches. Read both of their speeches from that day, and you'll see why Bush was put in the box he's stuck in now.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Oh, O.K., as long as he PROMISED....
Please...that's your answer? Bush promised?

What "box" is Bush "stuck" in (or was he ever in)? What recourse was included to do anything if he was just simply lying? My answer, NONE. That's my issue with voting in favor of the resolution. At best, it was a weak, do-nothing piece of trash. At worst, it gave Congressional support for a unilateral war that turns out to have been based on lies.

Oh, but over 70% of the people were in favor of the war, weren't they? That's a LOT of voters.....
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. exactly
there were no teeth in it. Except that Kerry said he would "vigorously oppose" Bush if he broke his promise. That doesn't seem to have kept Bush up at night worrying (and it seems he needn't have worried).

Kerry said "multilateral disarmament" and Bush went ahead with unilateral regime change. Kerry's response? "I'm glad that Saddam is gone".

"Thank you sir, may I have another?"

Don't get me wrong about the guy - I don't need a defense of every other things Kerry has ever done.

But no one seems able to explain his war stance to me.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. NOT THE POINT!!!!!
Edited on Wed Jul-09-03 08:01 PM by blm
Why be puposely obtuse over the point?

Because Bush DID go to the UN and present evidence his ass is in a sling. Kerry and Clinton can also say how Bush PERSONALLY lied to them to get their votes. Kerry already did say if Bush lied, he lied to him PERSONALLY. You take one aspect and spin it into something absurd while MISSING the larger picture. That shit doesn't work with me.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. blm, you miss the larger picture.

Kerry got screwed by Bush with this vote and Bush's subsequent actions.

What's Kerry going to do about it?

Should Bush fear what Kerry's going to do? It seems to me that Bush (quite rightly) doesn't have much to fear, because Kerry is not making a big stink and holding Bush's feet to the fire. Why?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. You ignore what he's said
about being misled and questioning whether Bush lied to him and the country. He said it needed to be investigated. Let the investigations happen. Geez, the other Dems in the senate and Congress are just starting to agree this week, after Kerry came out with his statement almost a month ago.

You blame Kerry because you WANT to and not based on the reality of his statements.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. blm
you have a persecution complex when it comes to Kerry.

My desire is for Kerry to be the perfect, god-like candidate that you obviously think he is, because if he wins the nomination all of our hopes are going to rest with him.

Failing that, I'd like him to be more consistent about this war, which Bush has inflicted on this country and is our worst tragedy which since Vietnam.

Apart from the war issue, I like Kerry a lot as a candidate. I like his positions, his voting record, and his record of service.

What I don't like is that he won't come out against this war, which is to the letter exactly what he said he wouldn't support in his vote address.

There is nothing to investigate about that. He clearly laid out his terms for a terrible mistake, and Bush went right out and made his worst nightmares come true. He should denounce this horrible war, which he had the wisdom to see coming and warn against.

Otherwise, what is the point of him having opinions about what is good and what is bad foreign policy?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #35
54. I'M missing the point???
What's Kerring going to do now that Bush was "dishonest"? There's NOTHING in the resolution that he voted for that deals with this. Bush's ass is in NO sling, because he only has to answer to the American people (who don't seem to care that he lied because this resolution didn't require his honesty in exchange for Congressional support).

I fail to see the absurdity here. I also fail to see the spin. This is a resolution with absolutely no teeth. If you disagree, show me what body Bush is now required to answer to for this...
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-03 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #35
96. His ass is in a sling over the SOTU
not the UN. He lied to us, admittedly he also lied to the UN but those lies he skated on. He is only in the sling now due to his lie in the SOTU address.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Whoopie. Boy, his face must be red.
This only helps us if Democratic leaders (like Kerry) use it against Bush. Has he shown any signs of pounding and pounding this issue?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. He brought it up...
Russert confronted others with Kerry's statement, more info is coming out this week. Stay tuned.

Why so mocking? Kerry is one of the few who comes forward and you relegate him to some crap heap. How old are you? Did Kerry help save your butt from Vietnam? Did Kerry stick up for you to serve openly in the military? Did Kerry help your kids get expanded healthcare coverage?
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. again
I'll say that Kerry seems to have an excellent record, except for this oddness with the Iraq vote and his subsequent public position. No need to defend him on other issues - but I'd like to have you explain to me, if you can, why he would support this war (and the way it was carried out).

He's had months to be an outspoken critic of the way this war has been carried out, but I guess unilateral regime change was ok with him, though he clearly wanted multilateral inspection and disarmament.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. Lather, rinse, repeat.
.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. look
I know it's like a broken record. I keep trying to make some sense of it.

Kerry did not want us to get into a unilateral, "pre-emptive" invasion of Iraq and commit regime change. He says so clearly in the statement above. He thinks that is bad policy, and goes to much effort to explain why above.

Bush goes ahead and commits unilateral, "pre-emptive" regime change by invading Iraq. This action, which is exactly what Kerry warned against as being bad policy, is now out there.

Why can't Kerry say that he is against this war? If it is bad policy, as he lays out in much detail, then he should be against it. What is wrong with being against this war if it is such bad policy? Why just capitulate and say "I'm glad Hussein is gone" and act like everything is AOK with what went down this spring? He has stated it was horrible diplomacy, but he knows that Bush had no stake in making the diplomacy turn out well. What could Bush care? Captain Bellicose was going to lead us into that war come hell or high water. Why can't Kerry get on record as saying he was against it?

I may never understand it.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. He also supported a war that wasn't a last resort..
After saying multiple times that he would not do so.

He supported extending the inspections, and when Bush denied them and bypassing the UN, what did he say? He said (paraphrasing here) "it would have been his strong personal preference, but Saddam brought this on himself, blah blah blah". He never said "this war is premature, and I cannot support it" or something to that effect which you would expect from someone who is only for war as a last resort.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. yeah,
for someone with some pretty well thought-out positions and a very good voting record, his actions on this issue are very strange indeed. I can only think the difference is now he is running for president, and is playing things differently.

But I think he would do well to be more of a hero on this issue to the people who actually appreciate the other parts of his record. He's not going to endear himself to the Republicans with this strategy, no matter what.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #63
90. Quote please
Edited on Fri Jul-11-03 04:54 PM by Nicholas_J
Link...
Full text...

To Kerry's support of the war...

I can provide ones where Dean DID.


http://www.howardsmusings.com/2003/02/20/salon_on_the_campaign_trail_with_the_unbush.html
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
16. This is exactly my problem with Kerry's war position...
I posted a thread asking similar questions, but never received a very good answer in the end. It's kind of maddening.

Sure, he said Bush bungled the diplomacy, but Kerry still supported the war. He supported the war despite Bush violating pretty much every condition he gave for his support! I don't get it.

Here are his comments on the eve of war:

March 17, 2003 - Senator John Kerry Responds to the President's Speech to the Nation


That said, Saddam Hussein is a tyrant, truly the personification of evil. He has launched two wars of aggression against his neighbors, perpetrated environmental disaster, purposefully destabilized an entire region of the world, murdered tens of thousands of his own citizens, flouted the will of the United Nations and the world in acquiring weapons of mass destruction, conspired to assassinate the former President of the United States, and provided harbor and support to terrorists bent on destroying us and our friends.

From that perspective, regardless of the Administration's mishandling of so much of this situation, no President can defer the national security decisions of this country to the United Nations or any other multilateral institution or individual country.

Even having botched the diplomacy, it is the duty of any President, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threats - threats both immediate and longer term - against it.

Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for twelve years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly , I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so.


I just don't get it.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Wow, that statement is amazing
It looks like unilateral regime-change (instead of multilateral disarmament) was just hunky-dory with Kerry after all. Oh well, I guess all of that stuff in his resolution-statement was just a bunch of hot air.

I can make neither heads nor tails out of that.

It was only 5 months later.

Like I said, most of Kerry's record is right on. Why the sudden brain-freeze when it comes to Iraq?
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. The Rest Of The Quote
I find myself genuinely angered, saddened and dismayed by the situation in which this nation finds itself tonight. As the world's sole superpower in an increasingly hostile and dangerous world, our government's obligation to protect the security of the United States and the law abiding nations of the world could not be more clear, particularly in the aftermath of September 11th.

Yet the Administration's handling of the run up to war with Iraq could not possibly have been more inept or self-defeating. President Bush has clumsily and arrogantly squandered the post 9/11 support and goodwill of the entire civilized world in a manner that will make the jobs ahead of us - both the military defeat and the rebuilding of Iraq - decidedly more expensive in every sense of that word.

The Administration's indifference to diplomacy and the manner in which it has treated friend and foe alike over the past several months have left this country with vastly reduced influence throughout the world, made impossible the assembly of a broad, multinational effort against Saddam Hussein, and dramatically increased the costs of fulfilling our legitimate security obligations at home and around the world.

At home, the Administration has given too short shrift to the needs of homeland security, ignoring the advice of their own experts, doing the job on the fly and on the cheap. To this administration, homeland security is a fine political weapon, but not high enough a priority to force a reassessment of their tax cuts to the rich and the special interests.

My strong personal preference would have been for the Administration - like the Administration of George Bush, Sr. -- to have given diplomacy more time, more commitment, a real chance of success. In my estimation, giving the world thirty additional days for additional real multilateral coalition building - a real summit, not a five hour flyby with most of the world's powers excluded -- would have been prudent and no impediment to our military situation, an assessment with which our top military brass apparently agree. Unfortunately, that is an option that has been disregarded by President Bush. In the colloquial, we are where we are.

It will take years to repair the needless damage done by this Administration, damage to our international standing and moral leadership, to traditional and time-tested alliances, to our relations with the Arab world, ultimately to ourselves. Let's finish the process we began twelve years ago of disarming Saddam and ridding the world of this menace. Let's begin to rebuild our sense of national unity. Let's begin the work of building a stronger, safer world, of rebuilding alliances, and staying the course of long term involvement the Middle East in order to reclaim our rightful place of respect in the world order.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Excellent!!
Now that's more like it - Kerry should be talking like that every time he opens his mouth, before he gets to any other issue.

I don't like the way he calls it "my own personal preference", like Bush just made a choice that was different than but equal to, his own.

But more of that rhetoric, delivered in a loud voice, is very welcome. This, at least, sounds like a man who has been wronged.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
20. Thank You For Your Time And Work On This Issue
I must admit that I am not entirely comfortable with Kerry's position. In fact, I have almost all of the same concerns you have. Although I recognize the complexity of the issue, something deep inside of me wishes Kerry was out there every day banging on the podium.

Kerry has been remarkably consistent in his attacks on Bush's handling of the situation. I apologize but I don't know how to summon up articles from more than a month ago. Even Google News is not much help finding articles over the past few months, so I can't point to specific quotes (which sucks) .

However, the reality is that he has NOT gone out of his way to paint himself the anti-war candidate. In fact, he has made a point of telling Dem activists that he is NOT the anti-war candidate. I'll let him say it:

"Americans deserve better than a false choice between force without diplomacy and diplomacy without force. I believe they deserve a principled diplomacy backed by undoubted military might and based on enlightened self-interest."

In my heart, I would prefer it if he said he was going to dismantle the Defense Department and put the funds towards food programs, but I also recognize that he has a point.

Howard Dean's position on Iraq has been virtually identical in its conditions, but he has made the glass half-peace rather than half-war. Yet, I think Kerry has the greater understanding of the global chessgame of international politics, and a real commitment to a progressive and just foreign policy.

So, I share your discomfort, but I believe that Kerry still represents the best alternative in a world not as black and white as I might wish.

But again, thank you for going through his speech. It is extremely helpful to have a Cliff's Notes version! Luckily, when Kerry is not laying out policy, his speeches are much shorter and sweeter.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Dr. Funkenstein,
It has been a pleasure discussing this with you. I'm glad you can see the logical conundrum of Kerry's position. Apart from this particular vote, I think Kerry is a great candidate. Maybe someday I'll understand it better.

I realize that Dean's position, for one, is very similar to Kerry's stated position on Iraq. Neither of them thought Bush had the goods to justify a unilateral invasion, and both think it is madness to proceed with something like this without the UN on board.

But after it became clear what Bush was using his vote for, I really think the only consistent thing for Kerry to do would be to jump up and down and scream.

Here's to beating Bush in '04. I'll have to accept a bit of cognitive dissonance in case it is President Kerry - I've certainly put up with worse.
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keek Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. its not complex
"I recognize the complexity of the issue"

Kerry made it complex in his explanation but it is simple. Either Yes, he thought that Bush should have the authorization to go to war or No, he didn't think bush should have the authorization to go to war. At that time. Not in the future if the cards line up the way he wants it to. There were all of those hawks calling for an invasion of Iraq and Kerry said, "yes, go to war," with his vote. It doesn't matter how he justifies it. I don't understand how people can try to make it into something different.

the resolution didn't say, "should the president go to the UN?" or "should the president get a coalition together for a multilateral invasion" it was "should the president have the authority to go to war"
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
24. There is one other aspect of the Iraq Act that Everyone forgets
That is that every five minutes, Bush was changing the reason that the U.S. had an absolute right to go to war. WHhn Biden-Lugar was suggested, he switched from WMD's to having to enforce the U.N. resolutions that Hussein agreed to after Gulf War. When the U.N. was reluctant to act immediately, he then stated that the U.S. had already decicded that it had the right to go after states that harbor the terrorists responsible for 9/11. The Iraq Act in October, cited all of these possible reasons for going to war, required diplomatic solutions first, a U.N. international coalitions second, and lastly, going it alone, only if the president could prove that any of the threats, W.M.D.'s or terrorist support really existed. Bush never met any of the conditions that the act required. He didnt exhaust diplomatic solutions, he didnt get an U.N. coalition, and he didnt make his case for threat of terrorism. While many people consider the act a vote for war, it only can be considered so if you believe that Bush actually met the conditions set in the act.

THe president could have sent the troops to do anything without asking Congress. THe War Powers Resolution of 1972, requires the president tell Cngress what he is planning to do, but they cannot tell him what he can or cant do internationally with the military.

But they can tell him what he has to do in order to get their support of any actions he plans to take. If they take no legislative action, the president is totally free to act however he wishes to act.
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copithorne Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thanks for your work Professor Plum
I still come away with the sense that Kerry's position is that the war in Iraq is:

Right policy. Wrong execution.

I disagree with that position. I think the war in Iraq is a catastrophic policy for this country. I'm looking for a president who shares that judgment.

Obviously Kerry's vote was a mistake. He trusted Bush. He was mistaken to do so. The consequences are (again) catastrophic. He still stands by the vote. Do you read the newspapers, Senator?

I admire Kerry, and would support him if he were the nominee. But I don't get this vote either and he still needs to explain it to me. I hope he can develop to a point where he can criticize the war forthrightly.

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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. One real problem that everyone also forgets
Is that NO vote would have been an even worse act...

Under the separation of powers regarding war powers, ths situtation in set up by the constitution is such that in the event of a president choosing to take military action, If Congress does not enact legislation that says to the president, we will or will not support yours, and lays down conditions, the lack of legislation is constitutionally considered to be a vote of consent, not dissent.I have posted this numerous times, from the University of Missouri, Kansas City's law school website. They have one of the better constitutional law curricula in the country:


Introduction
War Powers
The Constitution divides war powers between the Congress and the President. This division was intended by the framers to ensure that wars would not be entered into easily: it takes two keys, not one, to start the engine of war.

The Constitution's division of powers leaves the President with some exclusive powers as Commander-in-Chief (such as decisions on the field of battle), Congress with certain other exclusive powers (such as the ability to declare war and appropriate dollars to support the war effort), and a sort of "twilight zone" of concurrent powers. In the zone of concurrent powers, the Congress might effectively limit presidential power, but in the absence of express congressional limitations the President is free to act. Although on paper it might appear that the powers of Congress with respect to war are more dominant, the reality is that Presidential power has been more important--in part due to the modern need for quick responses to foreign threats and in part due to the many-headed nature of Congress.

The Supreme Court has had relatively little to say about the Constitution's war powers. Many interesting legal questions--such as the constitutionality of the "police action" in Korea or the "undeclared war" in Viet Nam--were never decided by the Court. (Although the Supreme Court had three opportunities to decide the constitutionality of the war in Viet Nam, it passed on each one.) ...


http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/warandtreaty.htm


If they don't try to limit the presidents actions, by diverting it through international, bodies, or whatever, the president is pretty much free to act. They absolutely CANNOT write an acts tating that the president cannot act, militarily, as he sees fit in order to defend American interests, because the Congress cannot, through its legislative powers, take away powers granted to another branch of government, in the Constitution.

Such power would enable the Congress, to eliminate the need for the executive branch by legislation, or give the President power to disband Congress, by use of executive orders.

So since the president, as commander in chief is authorized to order troops into the field, an order them to attack a city, or country, Congress cannot tell he he cannot. All they can do is issue their support of his actions, and tell him what they expect him to do before they give that support.

They can then declare war, which is NOT an authorization of war, but a legal document which changes the diplomatic status between the U.S. and that nation. As such a declration of war is not needed to initiate hostilities, but once issued, makes it illegal for American businesses to do business with this nations, American diplomatic offices to stay in that nations. For Americans to aid that nation, and so on. It is not needed for the president to drop JDAMS on anyone.

Another problem...if the president does not like the act, hecan veto it. All this time, he can send troops, bomb cities, adn so on, while congress is arguing to try to pass the bill over the presidents veto with a 2/3rd majority of Congress, which even if Democrats had control in Congress, would not have happened.

So there were only two options,either write an act that the president would agree to sign, or allow him unlimited authority to act, because not providing legislation allows him to do so.

Now the real issue is, the act Kerry signed set certain actions for the president to take before COngress would support war in Iraq.

The first was to go to the U.N. and exhaust all diplomatic efforts to get Iraq to do whatever it was that the president wanted them to do.

Secondly, if the president did exhaust these diplomatic efforts, then the he was authorized to take, the next step required, convincing the U.N. to use force to make Hussein abide by U.N. resolutions regarding WMD's and the other things agreed to after the Gulf War.

Finally if the U.N. did not want to be involved at all, the presidnet had to present a reasonble case, with reasonable evidence that the Hussein regime constituted a legitimate, impending threat to the U.S> ,its allies,its interests, and its citizens COngress would support his decision to go to war in Iraq, as allowed by his constitutional obligation to protect the U.S. from that threat.

Now it is the arguments of the Democratic candidates in Congress, that the president did not exhaust diplomatic efforts, did not convince the U.N. to go to war, and did not present reasonable evidence that the Hussein regime presented a threat. They did that from the day the president decided he HAD met the terms of the act and decided to go on with the invasion.

Bush and Republicans have a different take, and beleive that the president DID meet the terms of the act.

But NO act would have allowed the president to go to war without going to the U.N., without weapons inspectors. Essentially no act would have been an agreement to the war by all of Congress
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. Ok
you've addressed my question below about why a NO vote would have been worse. I see your logic. The congress gets to go on record and say what they want to see happen.

But why the (relative) silence since the vote? Like I've said before, it isn't the vote itself which is so bothersome, but the way Kerry refuses to position himself as against this evil war. It's clear this president did not execute himself according to Kerry's wishes. He engaged in exactly the kind of war that Kerry said would be the worst. So why can't he talk about it in those terms?
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #36
52. One problem though....
the US is a signatory and ratified the UN charter and as the US constitution clearly states (and has been upheld by the USSC), treaties are binding on the US as law....

When the US attacked Iraq, we were in violation of international law...and as signatories to the charter...in violation of US law...the only way for Bush to circumvent this would be for a new law to be passed that expressly allows for the new Bush doctrine...

By not going through the UN and getting the UN security councils approval (remember Bush saying he was going to have a roll call no matter the vote...), he violated US law and should have been called on it....
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. In The Meantime, The Largest Anti-War Movement Ever Was Formed
If Bush did not go to the UN, which he had no intentions of doing prior to the resolution, and get bogged down trying to build legitimacy, the anti-war movement would not have had time to build up to anywhere near the extent it did.

Remember that the anti-war movement was not made up of a professional activist class, but was comprised of a lot of everyday people who started asking themselves questions.

The media would have slavishly supported Bush, of course, no matter what course he took. And Gephardt and others made negotiations very difficult by agreeing far, far too quickly to Bush's demands.

Should Kerry have raised the issues that Sen. Byrd did? Would that have stopped Bush from declaring war? Who knows. Somehow, I have to doubt it, given the forces at work at the time.

I will never say hip-hip-hooray that Bush had to go to the UN. Obviously, it is a mixed blessing - to say the very least. Yes, the anti-war movement became the world's second superpower, but that is no substitute for stopping Bush cold. Although I don't think that could have been accomplished, it doesn't exactly warm my heart knowing that at least we slowed him down.

My only comfort is the thought that we can replace the bastard in 2004. And, yes, I still think Kerry is the best man to do the job.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
67. second superpower
Interesting point, but in the here and now the "second superpower" business seems pretty utopian (in the perjorative sense).

You see blogtopia having real political effects?
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keek Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
30. none of this matters because he voted YES
To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.

You vote yes, or no. you can't say yes, but only if ......

Kerry is not the only democrat that did this. Hillary Clinton went on and on about how her vote was only a sign of national unity in case it came time for us to go to war, but she insisted that we have a coalition and go to the UN.

it doesn't matter. It was yes or no. At that time, he should have voted no. Bush didn't have a coalition. Bush doesn't care why Kerry voted yes, the fact is that he gave him the authorization. Anyway, Kerry had to have known that Bush wasn't going to go to the UN and get a coalition. It was obvious. What made him think that Bush would?
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. yeah
He should have known, obviously. Again, I'll point out that Kerry was involved in prosecuting Iran-Contra. Apples and trees and all that.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Problem is
Voting no, or not voting at all would have been even worse, if you have any understanding of constitutional law.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Please explain to me
how voting no would have been worse.


Then explain to me why Kerry has not come out being opposed to this fiasco.

Wait, it just occured to me. Do you think his reasoning is that he doesn't want to de-moralize the troops who are over there? I think that the troops might want someone to inject some sense into the discussion instead of giving Bush carte-blanche to use them as his own personal tools, but maybe Kerry has a different perspective, as a soldier from an unpopular war. Hmmmm.
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keek Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. please elaborate your point
because to me, the constitution says that congress has the power to declare war and the president has the power to see foreign leaders, or has the power to run foreign policy. Congress declares war when the U.S. is in a clear and present danger of attack, the president (executive branch) runs foreign policy and knows what the intelligence is and when we need to go to war. Are we a nation that goes to war without evidence because the executive branch SAYS that we need to because they have control over the intelligence, or does the legislative branch stand up and say, "no, we decide war, we are a civilized nation that doesn't declare war unless it is completely necessary?" I'd love to continue this debate in another thread nicholas J.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. It gave no authorization at all
Edited on Wed Jul-09-03 09:24 PM by Nicholas_J
It was a conditional document, telling the president what he needed to do to get Congressional support for his actions. Under constitutional law, Congress has no authority to order or prevent the ordering of military force. They can change the diplomatic status between the U.S. and another nation by issuing a declaration of war, but the declaration itself does not, nor can it order the initiation of hostilities. This power resides in the President alone.

Congress also pays authorizes the military budget, for a period that is no longer than two years, but once it is authorized, the president cna spend it to send troops wherever he wants, and drop as many bombs as are on hand.

Once the money runs out, Congress can say yea, ot nay, but when troops are in the field already, no congress is going to say, let 100,000 of some voters kids rot in the desert and get hacked to death by the opposing side.

The statement that the act was a "Vote for War" is jejeune to the Nth degree.

I worry a great deal about the future of the democratic party when I see such extreme lack of knowledge about the U.S. government. It seems that what many Du'ers seems to want is some sort of dictatorship of the presidency. Or a plutocracy in Congress.


Many seem to have no idea of the total compromise nature of all legslation, and the separation of powers. It is not a football game in which the are equal numbers on the side of each team, and the strongest, and those who have the best strategy and tactical analysis wins. It is far more complex than that.

It very much explains the appeal of Howard Dean to those looking for simple glib answers to validate their own beliefs that the democrats have not somehow bullied their way through all opposition.

It is this type of simplistic appeal that put George Bush into office, and has allowed him to try to tear every progressive program to pieces. It is true, we cannot beat Bush by being Bush-Lite. Deans campiagn is Bush-Lite, simplistic, emotionally packed sound bites, with little or no substance, and even less political experience to support them.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. at the risk of sounding jejune :)
if the document didn't make any difference to what Bush was going to do with the military anyway, then why not vote "NO", seeing as how Bush had not made his case with evidence at the time (and doesn't seem like he will ever make it on the evidence)?

Also, since Bush has failed to do what he needed to do to get Congressional support for his actions, why not bitch a little bit more about it? Why not make the point loudly and clearly that this action is NOT authorized by Congress? With his vote and his "I'm glad Hussein is gone" complacent attitude, Kerry lends his tacit support to Bush's actions.

The perception that Kerry is on board with Bush in this military action, is hard to reconcile with the fact that he will not denounce this war. I don't care if it makes not one difference in what Bush does - Kerry needs to point out where Bush's policies diverge from his, loudly and clearly, and if Bush is engaging in illegal and unethical and unsupported use of force, Kerry needs to speak up about it. Come out against the war, for example.

And I might suggest that it is you who are being a bit naive if you think that this congress would heroically leap in and save our military kids from rotting in the desert and/or being hacked to death after silently allowing two years of quagmire to pass. Has anyone said that they are going to yank those troops out as soon as they get the chance? That what Bush has done is wrong? That the war is ill-conceived and hideously executed? Come out against the war?

I submit that we already have a dictatorship in the presidency and a plutocracy in the Congress, and that many at DU would work to change that.

It is certainly not a football game, but in order to fight bad policy and evil intentions, you occassionally have to fight and go on record as fighting. You have to oppose. You have to say what is right and what is wrong and do it forcefully. The Republicans have certainly shown that they have nothing but scorn for those who compromise with them.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #46
53. That's Kind of A Jejune Thing To Say...
Jejune is a candy, right?

Professor Plum, we have remarkably similar attitudes about the issue here. I understand that Kerry was trying to make lemonade out of a pile of lemons, but I wish there was a little more piss and vinegar (bad mixed metaphor, sorry). After all, Howard Zinn is right there in Boston for advice! But, as I've said before, Kerry has chosen to call the glass half-war when Dean calls it half-peace. That's a little disappointing, I must admit.

Obviously I still get caught trying to come to terms with Kerry's position on Iraq, but ultimately I see him as THE progressive in the field. I was a big fan of Ralph Nader's reforms, but I also wasn't fond of his personality or his behavior at the end. I was really surprised at how similar Kerry's positions were - not just traditional liberal causes, but also major progressive reforms like campaign finance, media democracy, corporate crime and renewable energy.

Although I don't take huge personal stake in Kerry's war record, I do recognize that it makes his progressive record much more palatable to mainstream America. He doesn't seem like a hippie Marxist - hey, I like hippie Marxists! - and so the GOP will have a hard time painting a Rambo-type as a liberal fruitcake. I love Dennis, but he definitely smells a little like a liberal fruitcake.

So, while the Iraq vote nags me, I try not to see the glass as 10% empty. I prefer the 90%-full view.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Tell me what Kerry has decided to say about the war...
So far, he has not approved of anything, but the removal of of Saddams regime as a good thing, because Saddam was a bastard. All Kerry has said,and the Act in October said (which was a virtual paraphrase of the Geneva Conventions, and the Nuremberg Conventions), Was that in the cases of supporting U.N. resolutions, The U.S. must exhaust all diplomatic solutions befre resorting to war. And in resorting to war to support those resolutions, the U.S. must get a U.N. coalition to go use force. The U.S. also reserved the right to go to war with a nation that had proven a miitary threat to the United States.

Kerry has maintained this same positions since Bush started talking about going to war in July of 2002.HE has not altered his stance in any way.

Somehow, many of you are trying to wrangle Kerry's point of view as being opposed to going to war with Iraq. He never held that point of view. He has been trying to get the U.S. to get a president to do something about Saddams kicking out of U.N. inspectors, and to get the U.N. to do something about Saddams breakiing the terms of the agreememts to end the hostilities of the Gulf War since 1998:

Matters looked different in 1998, when Democrats were working with a president of their own party. Daschle not only supported military action against Iraq, he campaigned vigorously for a congressional resolution to formalize his support. Other current critics of President Bush -- including Kerry, Graham, Patrick Leahy, Christopher Dodd, and Republican Chuck Hagel -- co-sponsored the broad 1998 resolution: Congress "urges the president to take all necessary and appropriate actions to respond to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."

Daschle said the 1998 resolution would "send as clear a message as possible that we are going to force, one way or another, diplomatically or militarily, Iraq to comply with international law." And he vigorously defended President Clinton's inclination to use military force in Iraq.

Summing up the Clinton administration's argument, Daschle said, "'Look, we have exhausted virtually our diplomatic effort to get the Iraqis to comply with their own agreements and with international law. Given that, what other option is there but to force them to do so?' That's what they're saying. This is the key question. And the answer is we don't have another option. We have got to force them to comply, and we are doing so militarily."

John Kerry was equally hawkish: "If there is not unfettered, unrestricted, unlimited access per the U.N. resolution for inspections, and UNSCOM cannot in our judgment appropriately perform its functions, then we obviously reserve the rights to press that case internationally and to do what we need to do as a nation in order to be able to enforce those rights," Kerry said back on February 23, 1998....

http://www.mediaresearch.org/cyberalerts/2002/cyb20020909.asp

Kerry has NEVER said he was against war with Iraq, just Bush's war with Iraq.

HE ha said it was necessary for the international community to use diplomatic means to force Saddam to honor his agreements, and if he did not, and there was good reason to beleive that he was again going to threaten his neighbors, the United States, aid terrorists, or do anything to harm the U.S. or its citizens, the U.S. reserves its rightr to defend itself, regardless of the opinion of the international community. He just beleives that Bush did not follow this internationally sanctioned course of action when thinking about engaging in conflict.

He has state this again, in the Septemeber OP-Ed piece he wrote in the New York Times:

We Still Have a Choice on Iraq
>
>September 6, 2002
>By JOHN F. KERRY
>
>WASHINGTON - It may well be that the United States will go
>to war with Iraq. But if so, it should be because we have
>to - not because we want to. For the American people to
>accept the legitimacy of this conflict and give their
>consent to it, the Bush administration must first present
>detailed evidence of the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass
>destruction and then prove that all other avenues of
>protecting our nation's security interests have been
>exhausted. Exhaustion of remedies is critical to winning
>the consent of a civilized people in the decision to go to
>war. And consent, as we have learned before, is essential
>to carrying out the mission. President Bush's overdue
>statement this week that he would consult Congress is a
>beginning, but the administration's strategy remains
>adrift...

There is, of course, no question about our capacity to win
>militarily, and perhaps to win easily. There is also no
>question that Saddam Hussein continues to pursue weapons of
>mass destruction, and his success can threaten both our
>interests in the region and our security at home. But
>knowing ahead of time that our military intervention will
>remove him from power, and that we will then inherit all or
>much of the burden for building a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq,
>is all the more reason to insist on a process that invites
>support from the region and from our allies. We will need
>that support for the far tougher mission of ensuring a
>future democratic government after the war.
>
>The question is not whether we should care if Saddam
>Hussein remains openly scornful of international standards
>of behavior that he agreed to live up to. The question is
>how we secure our rights with respect to that agreement and
>the legitimacy it establishes for the actions we may have
>to take. We are at a strange moment in history when an
>American administration has to be persuaded of the virtue
>of utilizing the procedures of international law and
>community - institutions American presidents from across
>the ideological spectrum have insisted on as essential to
>global security.
>
>For the sake of our country, the legitimacy of our cause
>and our ultimate success in Iraq, the administration must
>seek advice and approval from Congress, laying out the
>evidence and making the case. Then, in concert with our
>allies, it must seek full enforcement of the existing
>cease-fire agreement from the United Nations Security
>Council. We should at the same time offer a clear ultimatum
>to Iraq before the world: Accept rigorous inspections
>without negotiation or compromise. Some in the
>administration actually seem to fear that such an ultimatum
>might frighten Saddam Hussein into cooperating. If Saddam
>Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international
>community's already existing order, then he will have
>invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at
>the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if
>the Security Council fails to act. But until we have
>properly laid the groundwork and proved to our fellow
>citizens and our allies that we really have no other
>choice, we are not yet at the moment of unilateral
>decision-making in going to war against Iraq.

http://www.massgreens.org/pipermail/needtoknow/2002-September/000206.html

And the same in January, 2003:

"Mr. President, Do Not Rush To War"

As our government conducts one war and prepares for another, I come here today to make clear that we can do a better job of making our country safer and stronger. We need a new approach to national security - a bold, progressive internationalism that stands in stark contrast to the too often belligerent and myopic unilateralism of the Bush Administration. I offer this new course at a critical moment for the country that we love, and the world in which we live and lead. Thanks to the work and sacrifice of generations who opposed aggression and defended freedom, for others as well as ourselves, America now stands as the world's foremost power. We should be proud: Not since the age of the Romans have one people achieved such preeminence. But we are not Romans; we do not seek an empire. We are Americans, trustees of a vision and a heritage that commit us to the values of democracy and the universal cause of human rights. So while we can be proud, we must be purposeful and mindful of our principles: And we must be patient - aware that there is no such thing as the end of history. With great power, comes grave responsibility.

We are all of us too aware, since September 11th, of the gravity of the times and the greatness of the stakes. Having won the Cold War, a brief season of content has been succeeded by a new war against terrorism which is an assault on the very progress we have made.

Throughout our history, in peaceful exertion and in armed struggle, we were steadfast - we were right on the central issue of freedom, and we prevailed. And because we prevailed the world is a far better place than it was or would otherwise have been. The world today has a strong democratic core shaped by American ingenuity, sacrifice, and spirit. But on the periphery are many unstable and dangerous places, where terrorists seek to impose a medieval dark age. As we learned so brutally and so personally, we do face a new threat. But we also face a renewed choice - between isolation in a perilous world, which I believe is impossible in any event, and engagement to shape a safer world which is the urgent imperative of our time. A choice between those who think you can build walls to keep the world out, and those who want to tear down the barriers that separate "us" from "them." Between those who want America to go it alone, and those who want America to lead the world toward freedom. The debate over how the United States should conduct itself in the world is not new. After all, what is today's unilateralism but the right's old isolationist impulse in modern guise? At its core is a familiar and beguiling illusion: that America can escape an entangling world...that we can wield our enormous power without incurring obligations to others...and that we can pursue our national interests in arrogant ways that make a mockery of our nation's ideals. I am here today to reject the narrow vision of those who would build walls to keep the world out, or who would prefer to strike out on our own instead of forging coalitions and step by step creating a new world of law and mutual security. I believe the Bush Administration's blustering unilateralism is wrong, and even dangerous, for our country. In practice, it has meant alienating our long-time friends and allies, alarming potential foes and spreading anti-Americanism around the world. Too often they've forgotten that energetic global leadership is a strategic imperative for America, not a favor we do for other countries. Leading the world's most advanced democracies isn't mushy multilateralism -- it amplifies America's voice and extends our reach. Working through global institutions doesn't tie our hands -- it invests US aims with greater legitimacy and dampens the fear and resentment that our preponderant power sometimes inspires in others. In a world growing more, not less interdependent, unilateralism is a formula for isolation and shrinking influence. As much as some in the White House may desire it, America can't opt out of a networked world. We can do better than we are doing today. And those who seek to lead have a duty to offer a clear vision of how we make Americans safer and make America more trusted and respected in the world.

That vision is defined by looking to our best traditions -- to the tough-minded strategy of international engagement and leadership forged by Wilson and Roosevelt in two world wars and championed by Truman and Kennedy in the Cold War. These leaders recognized that America's safety depends on energetic leadership to rally the forces of freedom And they understood that to make the world safe for democracy and individual liberty, we needed to build international institutions dedicated to establishing the rule of law over the law of the jungle. That's why Roosevelt pushed hard for the United Nations and the World Bank and IMF. It's why Truman insisted not only on creating NATO, but also on a Marshall Plan to speed Europe's recovery. It's why Kennedy not only faced down the Soviets during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but also signed the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and launched the Peace Corps to put American idealism to work in developing countries. He spoke out for an America strong because of its ideals as well as its weapons.

For us today, the past truly is prologue. The same principles and strength of purpose must guide our way. Our task now is to update that tradition, to forge a bold progressive internationalism for the global age. As I said last summer in New York, for Democrats to win America's confidence we must first convince Americans we will keep them safe. You can't do that by avoiding the subjects of national security, foreign policy and military preparedness. Nor can we let our national security agenda be defined by those who reflexively oppose any U.S. military intervention anywhere...who see U.S. power as mostly a malignant force in world politics...who place a higher value on achieving multilateral consensus than necessarily protecting our vital interests. Americans deserve better than a false choice between force without diplomacy and diplomacy without force. I believe they deserve a principled diplomacy...backed by undoubted military might...based on enlightened self-interest, not the zero-sum logic of power politics...a diplomacy that commits America to lead the world toward liberty and prosperity. A bold, progressive internationalism that focuses not just on the immediate and the imminent but insidious dangers that can mount over the next years and decades, dangers that span the spectrum from the denial of democracy, to destructive weapons, endemic poverty and epidemic disease. These are, in the truest sense, not just issues of international order and security, but vital issues of our own national security. So how would this approach, this bold progressive internationalism, differ from the Bush Administration's erratic unilateralism and reluctant engagement? The answer starts by understanding the nature and source of the threat we face.

While we must remain determined to defeat terrorism, it isn't only terrorism we are fighting. It's the beliefs that motivate terrorists. A new ideology of hatred and intolerance has arisen to challenge America and liberal democracy. It seeks a war of Islam - as defined by extremists - against the rest of the world and we must be clear its epicenter is the Greater Middle East.

It's critical that we recognize the conditions that are breeding this virulent new form of anti-American terrorism. If you look at countries stretching from Morocco through the Middle East and beyond...broadly speaking the western Muslim world...what you see is a civilization under extraordinary stress. The region's political and economic crisis is vividly captured in a recent report written by Arab scholars for the United Nations Development Program and the Arab Fund for Social and Economic Development. Let me quote:

"The wave of democracy that transformed governance in most of the world has barely reached the Arab states...The freedom deficit undermines human development and is one of the most painful manifestations of lagging political development."

According to Freedom House, there are no full-fledged democracies among the 16 Arab states of the Middle East and North Africa. The Middle East is not monolithic; there are governments making progress and struggling effectively with change in Jordan, Morocco and Qatar. But Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Syria are among the 10 least free nations in the world. Political and economic participation among Arab women is the lowest in the world and more than half of Arab women are still illiterate. And these countries are among the most economically isolated in the world, with very little trade apart from the oil royalties which flow to those at the very top. Since 1980, the share of world trade held by the 57 member countries of the Organization of the Islamic Conference has fallen from 15 percent to just four percent. The same countries attracted only $13.6 billion worth of foreign direct investment in 2001. That is just $600 million - only about 5 % - more than Sweden, which has only 9 million people compared to 1.3 billion people. In 1969, the GDP of South Korea and Egypt were almost identical. Today, South Korea boasts one of the 20 largest economies in the world while Egypt's remains economically frozen almost exactly where it was thirty years before.

A combination of harsh political repression, economic stagnation, lack of education and opportunity, and rapid population growth has proven simply explosive. The streets are full of young people who have no jobs... no prospects... no voice. State-controlled media encourage a culture of self-pity, victimhood and blame-shifting. This is the breeding ground for present and future hostility to the West and our values. From this perspective, it's clear that we need more than a one-dimensional war on terror. Of course we need to hunt down and destroy those who are plotting mass murder against Americans and innocent people from Africa to Asia to Europe. We must drain the swamps of terrorists; but you don't have a prayer of doing so if you leave the poisoned sources to gather and flow again. That means we must help the vast majority people of the greater Middle East build a better future. We need to illuminate an alternative path to a futile Jihad against the world...a path that leads to deeper integration of the greater Middle East into the modern world order.

The Bush Administration has a plan for waging war but no plan for winning the peace. It has invested mightily in the tools of destruction but meagerly in the tools of peaceful construction. It offers the peoples in the greater Middle East retribution and war but little hope for liberty and prosperity.

What America needs today is a smarter, more comprehensive and far-sighted strategy for modernizing the greater Middle East. It should draw on all of our nation's strengths: military might, the world's largest economy, the immense moral prestige of freedom and democracy - and our powerful alliances.

Let me emphasize that last asset in this mission: our alliances. This isn't a task that we should or need to shoulder alone. If anything, our transatlantic partners have a greater interest than we do in an economic and political transformation in the greater Middle East. They are closer to the front lines. More heavily dependent on oil imports. Prime magnets for immigrants seeking jobs. Easier to reach with missiles and just as vulnerable to terrorism. Meanwhile, NATO is searching for a new mission. What better way to revitalize the most successful and enduring alliance in history, then to reorient it around a common threat to the global system that we have built over more than a half-century of struggle and sacrifice? The Administration has tried to focus NATO on the Middle East, but it's high-handed treatment of our European allies, on everything from Iraq to the Kyoto climate change treaty, has strained relations nearly to the breaking point. We can do better. With creative leadership, the U.S. can enlist our allies in a sustained multilateral campaign to build bridges between the community of democracies and the greater Middle East - not just for them, but for us. Here, in my view, is what this strategy should look like.

First, destroying al Qaeda and other anti-American terror groups must remain our top priority. While the Administration has largely prosecuted this war with vigor, it also has made costly mistakes. The biggest, in my view, was their reluctance to translate their robust rhetoric into American military engagement in Afghanistan. They relied too much on local warlords to carry the fight against our enemies and this permitted many al Qaeda members, and according to evidence, including Osama bin Laden himself, to slip through our fingers. Now the Administration must redouble its efforts to track them down. And we need to pressure Pakistan to get control of its territories along the Afghanistan border, which have become a haven for terrorists.

Second, without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.

So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War. Regrettably the current Administration failed to take the opportunity to bring this issue to the United Nations two years ago or immediately after September 11th, when we had such unity of spirit with our allies. When it finally did speak, it was with hasty war talk instead of a coherent call for Iraqi disarmament. And that made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the perils of war for themselves rather than keeping the focus on the perils posed by Saddam's deadly arsenal. Indeed, for a time, the Administration's unilateralism, in effect, elevated Saddam in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he never would have achieved on his own, undermining America's standing with most of the coalition partners which had joined us in repelling the invasion of Kuwait a decade ago.

In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war. As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action.

The Administration must pass this test. I believe they must take the time to do the hard work of diplomacy. They must do a better job of making their case to the American people and to the world.

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.

And I say to the United Nations, show respect for your own mandates. Do not find refuge in excuses and equivocation. Stand up for the rule of law, not just in words but in deeds. Not just in theory but in reality. Stand up for our common goal: either bringing about Iraq's peaceful disarmament or the decisive military victory of a multilateral coalition.

Third, as we continue our focus on the greater Middle East, the U.S. must look beyond stability alone as the linchpin of our relationships. We must place increased focus on the development of democratic values and human rights as the keys to long-term security. If we learned anything from our failure in Vietnam it is that regimes removed from the people cannot permanently endure. They must reform or they will finally crumble, despite the efforts of the United States. We must side with and strengthen the aspirations of those seeking positive change. America needs to be on the side of the people, not the regimes that keep them down.

In the 1950s, as the sun was setting on European colonialism, a young Senator named John Kennedy went to the Senate floor and urged the Eisenhower Administration not to back France against a rebellious Algeria. He recognized that the United States could only win the Cold War by staying true to our values, by championing the independence of those aspiring to be free. What's at issue today is not U.S. support for colonial powers out of touch with history, but for autocratic regimes out of touch with their own people.

We as Americans must be agents of hope as well as enemies of terrorism. We must help bring modernity to the greater Middle East. We must make significant investments in the education and human infrastructure in developing countries. The globalization of the last decade taught us that simple measures like buying books and family planning can expose, rebut, isolate and defeat the apostles of hate so that children are no longer brainwashed into becoming suicide bombers and terrorists are deprived the ideological breeding grounds. I believe we must reform and increase our global aid to strengthen our focus on the missions of education and health --of freedom for women -- and economic development for all.

The U.S. should take a page from our Cold War playbook. No one expected communism to fall as suddenly as it did. But that didn't prevent us from expanding society-to-society aid to support human rights groups, independent media and labor unions and other groups dedicated to building a democratic culture from the ground up. Democracy won't come to the greater Middle East overnight, but the U.S. should start by supporting the region's democrats in their struggles against repressive regimes or by working with those which take genuine steps towards change.

We must embark on a major initiative of public diplomacy to bridge the divide between Islam and the rest of the world. We must make avoidance of the clash of civilizations the work of our generation: Engaging in a new effort to bring to the table a new face of the Arab world -- Muslim clerics, mullahs, imams and secular leaders -- demonstrating for the entire world a peaceful religion which can play an enormous role in isolating and rebutting those practitioners who would pervert Islam's true message. Fourth, The Middle East isn't on the Bush Administration's trade agenda. We need to put it there.

The United States and its transatlantic partners should launch a high-profile Middle East trade initiative designed to stop the economic regression in the Middle East and spark investment, trade and growth in the region. It should aim at dismantling trade barriers that are among the highest in the world, encouraging participation in world trade policy and ending the deep economic isolation of many of the region's countries.

I propose the following policy goals: We should build on the success of Clinton Administration's Jordan Free Trade Agreement. Since the United States reduced tariffs on goods made in "qualifying industrial zones," Jordan's exports to the US jumped from $16 to $400 million, creating about 40,000 jobs. Let's provide similar incentives to other countries that agree to join the WTO, stop boycotting Israel and supporting Palestinian violence against Israel, and open up their economies. We should also create a general duty-free program for the region, just as we've done in the Caribbean Basin Initiative and the Andean Trade Preference Act. Again, we should set some conditions: full cooperation in the war on terror, anti-corruption measures, non-compliance with the Israel boycott, respect for core labor standards and progress toward human rights. Let's be clear: Our goal is not to impose some western free market ideology on the greater Middle East. It's to open up a region that is now closed to opportunity, an outpost of economic exclusion and stagnation in a fast-globalizing world.

These countries suffer from too little globalization, not too much. Without greater investment, without greater trade within the region and with the outside world, without the transparency and legal protections that modern economies need to thrive, how will these countries ever be able to grow fast enough to provide jobs and better living standards for their people? But as we extend the benefits of globalization to people in the greater Middle East and the developing world in general, we also need to confront globalization's dark side. We should use the leverage of capital flows and trade to lift, not lower, international labor and environmental standards. We should strengthen the IMF's ability to prevent financial panics from turning into full-scale economic meltdowns such as we've seen in Argentina. And in the Middle East especially, we need to be sensitive to fears that globalization will corrupt or completely submerge traditional cultures and mores. We can do these things.

Fifth, and finally, we must have a new vision and a renewed engagement to reinvigorate the Mideast peace process. This Administration made a grave error when it disregarded almost seventy years of American friendship and leadership in the Middle East and the efforts of every President of the last 30 years. A great nation like ours should not be dragged kicking and resisting - should not have to be pressured to the task of making peace. A great nation like ours should be leading the effort to make peace or we risk encouraging through our inaction the worst instincts of an already troubled region.

Israel is our ally, the only true democracy in this troubled region, and we know that Israel as a partner is fundamental to our security. From Truman through Clinton, America has always been committed to Israel's independence and survival - we will never waver.

Israel's security will be best assured over the long term if real and lasting peace can be brought to the Middle East. I know from my own trips to Israel that the majority of the Israeli people understand and expect that one day there will be a Palestinian state. Their frustration is that they do not see a committed partner in peace on the Palestinian side. Palestinians must stop the violence - this is the fundamental building block of the peace process. The Palestinian leadership must be reformed, not only for the future of the Palestinian people but also for the sake of peace. I believe Israel would respond to this new partner after all, Israel has already indicated its willingness to freeze settlements and to move toward the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of a comprehensive peace process.

Without demanding unilateral concessions, the United States must mediate a series of confidence building steps which start down the road to peace. Both parties must walk this path together - simultaneously. And the world can help them do it. While maintaining our long term commitment to Israel's existence and security, the United States must work to keep both sides focused on the end game of peace. Extremists must not be allowed to control this process. American engagement and successful mediation are not only essential to peace in this war-torn area but also critical to the success of our own efforts in the war against terrorism. When I visited the region last year, in meetings with King Abdullah of Jordan, President Mubarak of Egypt, and Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, it became clear that September 11th had changed the imperatives of these countries. The Bush Administration has missed an opportunity to enlist much greater support in the peace process and needs to focus on this urgent priority- now.

The transformation of the Middle East which can come from these efforts will determine much of our future - but we must also look to the challenges on the rest of the planet. We must build a new and more effective role for the United States in the rest of this complex world. The central challenge for the United States is to undertake and lead the most global, comprehensive effort in history to deal with proliferation generally and nuclear weapons lost or loose in a dangerous world specifically. It is no secret that there are those lurking in the shadows eager to capitalize on a deadly market for nuclear materials held in insecure facilities around the world.

Five years ago, authorities seized a nuclear fuel rod that had been stolen from the Congo. The security guard entrusted with protecting it had simply lent out his keys to the storage facility. Two years later, even after near disaster, the facility was guarded only by a few underpaid guards, rusty gates, and a simple padlock.

The potential consequences are fearful and undeniable. In October 2001, we picked up warnings that terrorists had acquired a 10-kiloton nuclear bomb. If detonated in New York City, hundreds of thousands of Americans would have died, and most of Manhattan would have been destroyed. Sam Nunn had an important warning, "This intelligence report was judged to be false. But it was never judged to be implausible or impossible."

This Administration's approach to the menace of loose nuclear materials is strong on rhetoric, but short on execution. It relies primarily and unwisely on the threat of military preemption against terrorist organizations, which can be defeated if they are found, but will not be deterred by our military might.

It is time instead for the most determined, all-out effort ever initiated to secure the world's nuclear materials and weapons of mass des. We must offer our own blueprint for the mission of threat reduction. Comprehensively securing materials and keeping them from falling into the wrong hands demands a global perspective and international action. The only answer - the clear imperative - is a multilateral framework implementing a global consensus that weapons of mass destruction under the control of terrorists represent the most serious threat to international security today, and warrants an urgent and global response. We must marshal a great international effort to inventory and secure these materials wherever they may be and in whatever quantity. We must create mechanisms to help those that would be responsible stewards but lack the financial and technical means to succeed We must establish worldwide standards for the security and safekeeping of nuclear material and define a new standard of international legitimacy, linking the stewardship of nuclear materials under universally accepted protocols to acceptance in the community of nations. Nowhere is the need more clear or urgent than in North Korea.

There the Bush Administration has offered only a merry go-round policy. They got up on their high horse, whooped and hollered, rode around in circles, and ended right back where they'd started. By suspending talks initiated by the Clinton Administration, then asking for talks but with new conditions, then refusing to talk under the threat of nuclear blackmail, and then reversing that refusal as North Korea's master of brinkmanship upped the ante, the Administration created confusion and put the despot Kim Jong Il in the driver's seat. By publicly taking military force, negotiations, and sanctions all off the table, the Administration tied its own hands behind its back. Now, finally, the Administration is rightly working with allies in the region - acting multilaterally -- to put pressure on Pyongyang. They've gotten off the merry go round - the question is why you'd ever want to be so committed to unilateralist dogma that you'd get on it in the first place.

So too has the Administration missed major opportunities to address the downside of globalization by creating its upside - relief for nations around the globe struggling against environmental degradation, global health crises, debt relief in exchange for better development policies and improved trade relationships. We need to show the face of enlightened-not robber barren capitalism-something I will expand on in the months ahead.

One of the clearest opportunities missed is the environment. America has not led but fled on the issue of global warming. President Bush's declaration that the Kyoto Protocol was simply Dead on Arrival spoke for itself - and it spoke in dozens of languages as his words whipped instantly around the globe. But what the Administration failed to see was that Kyoto was not just an agreement - it was a product of 160 nations working together over 10 years. It was a good faith effort - and the United States just dismissed it. We didn't aim to mend it. We didn't aim to sit down with our allies and find a compromise. We didn't aim for a new dialogue. The Administration was simply ready to aim and fire, and the target they hit was our international reputation. This country can and should aim higher than preserving its place as the world's largest unfettered polluter. And we should assert, not abandon our leadership in addressing global economic degradation and the warming of the atmosphere we share with the other 90% of humanity.

We should be the world's leader in sustainable developmental policies. We should be the world's leader in technology transfer and technical assistance to meet a host of environmental and health challenges. We should rejoin our allies at the negotiating table - and recognize that friends in the fight for environmental clean-up are also the friends we rely on to help clean out the stables of terrorism. And this is a matter of our national security, too. Let me offer one last example: The threat of disintegration and chaos rises steadily in Africa as the continent is increasingly devastated by HIV/AIDS. More than 29 million people there are afflicted with that disease. Africa has 11% of the world's population but 70% of all the people in the world living with HIV/AIDS. Responding is not only morally right, but deeply practical and fundamentally important to the cause of global stability and ultimately our own safety. How can countries -- or whole continents -- torn apart by an untreated epidemic successfully resist the call to violence, terror, and the trade of weapons of mass destruction? There is much that we can do. We have learned that we can change behavior through prevention and education programs, and if we make treatment available for those already sick. We can stop the transmission from mother to child. And we can reduce the growing number of AIDS "orphans" if we start adding voluntary counseling, testing and treatment of parents and care givers to children. Yet the Bush Administration, intent on appeasing its right wing, assails population control while it neglects AIDS control even as that disease threatens to destroy whole populations. We must put our national interests in the claims of compassion ahead of political calculation and conservative dogma. The United States must be a leader in assembling an international coalition with other governments and private sector partners -- a coalition with the will and resources to confront the pandemic of HIV/AIDS with the same determination that we bring to the war on terrorism. I challenge the Bush Administration to develop and implement a comprehensive strategy to help the countries in Africa win the war against AIDS in their own backyard -- backed up by substantial increases in resources, beginning with $2.5 billion for the upcoming fiscal year.

Taken together, I believe these proposals, that I have put forward today, present a far better vision for how we deal with the rest of the world - a better vision for how we build relationships - and how doing so will make America safer. But there are other things we must do as well. I also believe there is a better vision for military transformation; a better vision for intelligence gathering; and a far more effective way of achieving homeland security and domestic preparedness. I intend to lay out detailed proposals on each of these areas in the coming months.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/012503A.kerry.no.rush.htm

Kerry's stance has not changed at all


Kerry has not changed his position on progressive internationalism.
First you try to use diplomatic means, then varying degrees of international force, finally, if there is substantive proof of threat to your own nation, its citizens, its vital interests, you reserve the right to defend yourself. Kerry never presneted himself as a peace candidate, never has backed away from his stance on utilizing force, but only as a last resort, after exhaustive international diplomatic efforts, with a U.N. coalition, but if necessry, adn only as a last resort, to denfend the U.S. from attack in any form, whether from military attack, or terrorist threat, but then only with overwhelming evidence that this attack is inevitable.

Perhaps your coming to terms with Kerrys stance is not possible, becasue you do not beleive that sometimes it is necessary fto use force. Kerry does. But not under the circumstances that Bush presented. Now that it is a faite accompli, his stance is still, to obtain international support, to get as many U.S. troops out of harms way as possible, and spread the risk among other nations. That way a solutions to leaving Iraq for good is likely to present itself much quicker.


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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
68. Piss and Vinegar-- would that be a diuretic?
I'm thirsty. That's jejune.

What's also jejune is claiming to both support and oppose a President's foolish war because you want to win the next election.

What's germaine is asking about the jejunocity (forgive me) of Kerry's other commitments. Don't start me talking. Seeing as Kerry's finding his voice on the Iraq issue, I'll be patient and listen to the man before refusing his lemonade.

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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. Kerry still
has not supported Bush's actions, or Bush's war...
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #72
81. What, no word play?
You've worked hard to show that "Kerry has NEVER said he was against war with Iraq, just Bush's war with Iraq." I concede that point. There is an important distincton, Kerry has made it himself, and in that he is consistent.

However, I said don't start me talking, so now I'm honorbound to point out the duplicities which arise from Kerry's political rhetoric. I will refer exclusively to the statement of Oct. 9 which ProfessorPlum cited to start this thread. Don't bother citing other texts unless you realize that my argument is not directly concerned with what the man really thinks, but with how he uses words to define his position, and how that usage articulates with the national discourse. This is kairotics, not Kerry-otics.

To begin with, John Kerry demonized Sadaam Hussein. Classic propaganda technique. Bush uses it too. The differences are, that Kerry did not argue in terms of good and evil, but rather portrayed Sadaam Hussein as a guilty criminal, a head of state who has committed atrocious acts, errors of judgement, a person therefore who cannot be trusted. Thus he drew an important distinction between his view and Bush's, while still contributing to a strategy of demonization. The character of Sadaam Hussein cannot be as important as Kerry claimed. Were the threats Kerry outlined restricted to the person of Sadaam Hussein, then a duel or an assissination would have been more appropriate than invasion.

The political effects of this strategy were manifold. It created an image of ideological and political solidarity, and projected that overseas. That image was also projected back at the domestic audience, and used to create a bandwagon effect that persuaded many people to give their support to the war. Did the general public pick up on the political differences, or did they hear "Sadaam Sadaam Sadaam Sadaam Sadaam Sadaam Sadaam Sadaam"? As evidence of the political effects of such language, I cite the polls showing large numbers of Americans who mistakenly believe that Sadaam Hussein orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. It is a bit naive to believe that that misperception stemmed from specific lies told by the cabal, and not recognize that it found fertile ground in a populace treated to month after month of the equation of Sadaam Hussein with evil, criminality, threat, and so on.

Within the Congress another effect was created. A prominent war hero and leader within the opposition party had aligned himself with the cabal, at least to the extent that he was willing to participate in the demonization of Sadaam Hussein, and the portrayal of his government as a threat to the United States. That alignment severely restricted the scope of politically credible dissent, thereby amplifying the effect of the bandwagon techniques the cabal would use to achieve their ends their way. If Kerry did not deliberately seek to engender such a narrowing of dissent, it can certainly be regarded as working to his political advantage.

Having established an essential solidarity with Bushco, completely in line with popular images and prejudices, Kerry then had some credibility to criticize Bush's failings. He did, but he aslo cited Clinton, Hagel, Mcain and other Senators as authorities to bolster his position. I won't dispute the facts he cites, but I will point out that some of those facts were in dispute internationally and among peace activists. Kerry, it seems to me, was framing the debate for domestic consumption, and perhaps in particular for "moderate" Democrats or independent swing voters.

Then, as Kerry was stepping up the critism of Bushco, he introduced the charge that Bushco had "politicized" the war, and that such politicizing had undercut Bushco's credibility. Wow. The implication that Kerry wanted people to draw, one would presume, was that whereas Bushco wanted a war for political gain, Kerry's support for war was nonpolitical, and therefore more reasonable, more in line with the national interests. That's a remarkable position. A politician with political ambitions involved in a political debate claims that his position is superior to his poltical rival's because it is non-political.

The claim of "politicization" has of course been with us for some years. It's been used to portray political opponents as extremists, and to portray one's own position as balanced, reasoned, and appealing to all Americans regardless of party affiliation. Hmmm. Here it's coming from a popular Senator from the Democratic stronghold of Massachusetts, a man who ran virtually unopposed in 2002. (There was a write-in Democrat, Randall Forsberg, who got 25000 votes to protest Kerry's vote to authorize war, and a Libertarian.) Let's be clear about this. Kerry's position of "America speaks with one voice" works to the advantage of the Democratic Party nationally, and were he considering running for POTUS, this would make a useful campaign statement for appealing to swing voters in close states.

The negative impacts I've covered, the limiting and stifling of dissent, the creation of a sense inevitability which Bushco exploited so dramatically--and please, if you would protest, don't protest too much. In more logical terms, Kerry's rhetoric laid out the political conditions of possibility for a popular war. As we have seen, the very popularity of war is self-perpetuating to a degree, the degree to which the popular media are in the thrall of the professional military disinformers, I'd hazard. But of course it's not that simple to assign blame.

Well, I threatened to tell you everything I know, but all this cynicism is wearing me out.



















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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #81
85. What a fascinating analysis
Great stuff.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. Kerry has been demonizing Saddam Hussein since 1998:
But not, apparently, if you're Tom Daschle. The Senate majority leader and his fellow congressional Democrats have spent months criticizing the Bush administration for its failure to make the "public case" for military intervention in Iraq. Now that the Bush administration has begun to do so, many of these same Democrats are rushing to erect additional obstacles.

"What has changed in recent months or years" to justify confronting Saddam, Daschle asked last Wednesday after meeting with President Bush. Dick Gephardt wants to know what a democratic Iraq would look like....

Matters looked different in 1998, when Democrats were working with a president of their own party. Daschle not only supported military action against Iraq, he campaigned vigorously for a congressional resolution to formalize his support. Other current critics of President Bush -- including Kerry, Graham, Patrick Leahy, Christopher Dodd, and Republican Chuck Hagel -- co-sponsored the broad 1998 resolution: Congress "urges the president to take all necessary and appropriate actions to respond to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."

Daschle said the 1998 resolution would "send as clear a message as possible that we are going to force, one way or another, diplomatically or militarily, Iraq to comply with international law." And he vigorously defended President Clinton's inclination to use military force in Iraq.

Summing up the Clinton administration's argument, Daschle said, "'Look, we have exhausted virtually our diplomatic effort to get the Iraqis to comply with their own agreements and with international law. Given that, what other option is there but to force them to do so?' That's what they're saying. This is the key question. And the answer is we don't have another option. We have got to force them to comply, and we are doing so militarily."

John Kerry was equally hawkish: "If there is not unfettered, unrestricted, unlimited access per the U.N. resolution for inspections, and UNSCOM cannot in our judgment appropriately perform its functions, then we obviously reserve the rights to press that case internationally and to do what we need to do as a nation in order to be able to enforce those rights," Kerry said back on February 23, 1998....

END of Excerpt

http://www.mediaresearch.org/cyberalerts/2002/cyb20020909.asp

Dont you guys pay attention to ANYTHING.

Kerry has considered Saddam Husssein a threat for longer than any other candidate. ANd he set forth the conditions for dealing with Iraq back in 1998. Internationally if possible, unilaterally if necessary.

In 1997, Kerrys vision reached further:

It will take only one mega-terrorist event in any of the great cities of the world to change the world in a single day."

Sen. John Kerry wrote that in 1997. In 2001, he saw it happen.

And while scientific reports indicate it was burning jet fuel that doomed the World Trade Center, Kerry blames a lack of military intelligence.

"John Walker got into the Taliban, but the CIA can't. What does that tell you?" said the Massachusetts Democrat on a recent trip to San Francisco to raise funds for his third Senate race.

"The best single defense we have today, the most important weapon in the war against terrorism, is intelligence, good intelligence. We're way behind the curve in terms of human intelligence-gathering capacity as well as mutual legal-assistance efforts. You've got to know who they are, where they are, what their plans are and hit them before they hit you. That's intelligence."

Kerry believes the United States is sorely lacking in intelligence efforts in "many of the parts of the world where we're threatened." He traveled to several of these sites in the Mideast recently in a little-publicized fact-finding trip.

Kerry, in his own words, presented Arab leaders with a "blunt" message: Stop saying one thing behind closed doors and another in your state-controlled newspapers.

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk020405/us12.shtml

Kerry has been TOTALLY consistant in his stance on Progressive Internationalism in general, and on regimes like Saddam Husseins in particular. Exhaust diplomatic means first, if diplomacy does not work, engage the international community to use progressively forcemful means(economic, then military). And finally, if there is a threat to ones own nation, that can be incontrovertably proven, then unilateral action is appropriate, but only as a last resort.

Kerry has been consistant in this stance, while EVERY other candidate but Kucinich, has waffled. Dean most of all.

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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #86
93. repitition repitition repitition reptition
I am not criticizing Senator Kerry for claiming that Saddam Hussein is/was a threat. That's a perfectly reasonable claim to make. You are right that he has been consistent in making it. My point regarding "demonization" highlights the use of repitition in Kerry's first paragraphs from the Oct 9 speech, which constitutes a kind of emotional appeal. This articulates with propoganda strategies that play upon national fears in order to persuade people to do things not in their interests.

I might be implying that Kerry is making a distinction without a difference, but I don't exactly believe that. My argument is that Kerry used questionable rhetoric to stake out his position, rhetoric which worked to the advantage of those promoting Bushco's military agenda.

Another example from the speech on the Ninth would be the way Kerry detailed evidence that suggested that the threat posed by Saddam Hussein might be an immanent one (§16). Kerry mixed weak claims, hedges, and suppositions with clear statements of facts: "Evidence suggests..." "have reportedly told..." "Reports show..." "If Iraq..." "The CIA estimates...." All mixed together with unflinching statements of fact.

The impression one has is that Kerry is getting all of his information from trusted, authoritative intelligence sources which show that Iraq's "program" of developing weapons of mass destruction may indeed pose a grave and immanent threat to the United States. Kerry wants to rest his point on the may, but it is not a pure uncertaintity. In fact the hedges lean towards the conclusion that Iraq probably does pose an immanent threat, which in Kerry's view is not sufficient for a causus bellum.

However, this way of arguing is not without difficulties. The impressions Kerry creates could easily lead to other conclusions, and this should not escape us, or Kerry, as it has been demonstrably the case that not only do Bushco not share Kerry's views of causus belli, a crucial segment of the electorate wanted to bomb Iraq for no smart reason whatsoever. From this other vantage, Kerry had just laid out a lengthy and factual catalogue of the threats posed by Saddam Hussein. What more could you ask for? "Let's Roll!"

In Kerry's defense, he claims to have been decieved. I believe him, and that matters to me, and it should matter to every one of us. But I don't think the duplicity begins and ends at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. That matters to me as well.














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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-03 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #93
101. Again
wrong.

Kerry has consistantly been willing to use military force in Iraq, IF, evidence supporting the conditions Kerry required, which are the SAME that the international community and international law demand. Those IFs are what you are defining as wavering. To state that intelligence SEEMS to indicate X.Y.Z., and IF this see true then ....

Is not wavering, It is analysis. Laying out, rationally, and in order, the conditions for using force. Nothing more, nothing less. Kerry's arguments were laid out before the public, in the exact same marrer that an attorney would lay out a case in front of a jury.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #101
104. And again
you misconstrue my points.

Kerry's ifs are indeed part of his argument, but that's not what I'm pointing to. I'm pointing to the ifs in the intelligence reports and his citations of them, in alternation with the definite conclusions and statements he makes based upon them. The overall impression is that these documents are authoritative, credible, and filled with hard evidence about Iraq's weapons programs. And the speculative and inconclusive? I would expect a logical lay out of the conditionality of Kerry's support for war to list and ideally reiterate those items on which the intelligence is iffy, to emphasize their iffiness, and to caution against drawing conclusions based upon iffy evidence. Instead, Kerry lists the iffy and the sure together in paragraphs designed to establish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons programs. Only later in the argument does he return to the theme of conditionality and uncertainty, but by that point in the argument he has already used uncertainty for other purposes, and he has diluted the sense of uncertainty by the juxtaposition of the speculative with bold statements of facts arising from the same authoritative sources. The point he wants to make about his support being conditional has been weakened.


Shorthand: As far as ifs go, Kerry's ifs are less than iffy-- which is more than iffy.


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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. ANd your points
Are misconstruing Kerry's IF's

Kerry does not state the intelligencre is true, or give it ANY validity.
It is you who are contruiong that Kerry's statements are giving support to their credibility, rather than quaetioning them

Kerry then goes on to maintain his conditional support, indicating that he does NOT give credence to the intelligence. If he did, the support would have gone from conditional to unconditional.

Kerry is not saying, "if that man has a gun, and I know he is going to shoot my wife. I am going to get a gun out, and stop it.

He is saying, If I think a man has a gun, and I think he is going to shoot my wife, I wouud consider getting my gun to stop it"

It is you who are adding between the lines in a manner that suits your own political opinions, wityhout any evidence otherwise. There is a old axiom, that your own opinions say more about YOU than they do about the thing you have the opinion about.

There is NOTHING in Kerry's statements for you to determine what you THINK he meant. So the only comclusion that can be drawn is from the EXACT meaning of the words, and his actions regarding them.

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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #109
110. I'm surprised that you of all people
can't recognize appeals to authority as a forensic techinique.

Anyways, you've gone and said untrue things again. Shall we parse?

Kerry said:
According to the CIA's report, all US intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop nuclear weapons.
Once more with feeling:
According to the CIA's report, all US intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop nuclear weapons.

Do I need to point out that citing US intelligence in this context is also an appeal to authority? Better safe than sorry, as my mother always told me.

If you find this quote, you will note that is in a paragraph that basically reads CIA report very scary, if, then the CIA estimates very scary, if, then the CIA estimates not as scary, nevertheless "very serious threat."

Next paragraph? "no question that Saddam Hussein is a menace..." There you go, no question according to John Kerry who cited reputable sources for arriving at the conclusion. Then he goes on to qualify the menace and his support for war, but as I've shown, the argument of conditionality is weakened by the way in which he has presented the case for being menaced.

But you're still in denial, huh? Then look at the paragraph that introduces the CIA report. The paragraph begins:"It is clear that in the four years since the UNSCOM inspectors were forced out, Saddam Hussein has continued his quest for weapons of mass destruction." What's the thesis here? Iffiness? Hardly. The point is that Iraq has not dismantled its wmd programs. What are the supporting arguments? The supporting arguments are all flowing from the CIA report, which is the only authority cited.

This and the next paragraph are littered with caveats like "suggests" and "probably" and "reportedly" and "could" It also includes a good measure of scariness and a lot of declarative statements. It uses declarative statements about the source, saying the report "shows." It uses declarative statements about the state of Iraq's weapons program: "Iraq has maintained...," "Iraq has invested...," "Most elements of the program are...," "Iraq has...and is capable...," "the Iraqi regime has energized...," "Iraq is developing...." It is these declarative statements, in conjunction with the structure of the argument, patently a demonstration of the menace posed by Saddam Hussein, which weaken the case for having doubts or placing conditions on support for war based on such doubts.

Now please please please don't make me go through the text highlighting the scary parts in red.

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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. Again
Edited on Thu Jul-17-03 03:08 PM by Nicholas_J
Speculative...

It is CLEAR that:

No question that Saddam has continued his quest.

"is capable"

"Is developing"

"Has invested"

Then onto...

"no question he is a menace"

The next step is simply. that he has done nasty things before, IF he
HAS completed his quest and HAS WMD's

Then we must be prepared to take actions in our own best interests. And the international community has done so as well.



you go on to conclude what is NOT being said by Kerry.

That Kerry is stating that WMD's DO exist, and that we therefore MUST act unilaterally. Which is where you are trying to drag Kerry's statements. You add, through insinuation, direction to an area which is not suggested in the statements.


Kerry's logical and syntactic content and context is statement of immaculately pure legal reasoning.

He lays out existing situations as known...
HE then states the IF these existing conditions have resulted in the existance of banned items, we must be wary(his caveat)

And be prepared to act in our own self interest. And the world be prepared in its own self interest. In case that the pre-existing conditions HAVE resulted in a new, threatening condition.

Kerry points out that the issue is not PROGRAM's but the possibility of proving that these programs have born fruit in WMD's and that THIS is what must be confirmed before any action is considered.

It is you who are adding MORE meaning to the content of the statements made by Kerry.

It is YOU who are creating your own thesis to place additional words and meaning to the statements to fit YOUR OWN view of the situation.

Now please dont make moe go though, in RED, where you are inserting your own take on the situation. Thiings Kerry did not say at all, and into which you are inserting yours own meaning.

Kerry's speech sounds vry much like those things I hear in June in Florida...

It is hurricane season again, since you live in a hurrican zone, and one might hit the place you live, stock up on hurrican suppplies and be prepared if one hits.

No more, no less.

Your argument is that Kerry is implying that a house on the corner or third and cedar will be hit by a flying lion who was picked up by high winds from the zoo three miles to the west and having not be fed that day, devours the family hiding in the Florida Room.

You add your own slant between the lines. Until Kerry directly states NUKE em' you have nothing to judge but Kerry weighing possibilities and preparing for all possible contingencies.

Another candidate, on the other hand, changes his stance OPENLY, PUBLICALLY FOUR times in a period of less than a ten days.

On January 31, Dean told Ron Brownstein of the Los Angeles Times that "if Bush presents what he considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization."

And then on Feb. 20, Dean told Salon.com that "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."

But a day later, he told the Associated Press that he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approves the move and backs it with action of its own. "They have to send troops," he said.

Four days later on PBS's News Hour with Jim Lehrer, Dean said United Nations authorization was a prerequisite for war. "We need to respect the legal rights that are involved here," Dean said. "Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them."

http://www.topdog04.com/000071.html

Kerry has been overwhemingly consistant in the terms and conditions he wants to be seen before resorting to unilateral action,and they are and have been VERY clear.

I mean. I have invested considerable effort and money into business ventures. The fact that I have done so does not indicate that I have had any success, and that before one can determine if I have been sucessful, more evidence must be provided. This parallels Kerry's reasoning.


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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #110
114. Again
Speculative...

It is CLEAR that:

No question that Saddam has continued his quest.

"is capable"

"no question he is a menace"

"Is developing"

"Has invested"

you go on to conclude what is NOT being said by Kerry.

He is not saying that Saddam HAS completetd his quest and HAS WMD's

Kerry's logical and syntactic content and context is statement of immaculately pure legal reasoning.

He lays out existing situations as known...
HE then states the IF these existing conditions have resulted in the existance of banned items, we must be wary(his caveat)

And be prepared to act in our own self interest. And the world be prepared in its own self interest. In case that the pre-existing conditions HAVE resulted in a new, threatening condition.

Kerry points out that the issue is not PROGRAM's but the possibility of proving that these programs have born fruit in WMD's and that THIS is what must be confirmed before any action is considered.

It is you who are adding MORE meaning to the content of the statements made by Kerry.

It is YOU who are creating your own thesis to place additional words and meaning to the statements to fit YOUR OWN view of the situation.

Sorry, Kerrys statements very much sound like those I hear every year in June in Florida...

It is hurricane season again, since you live in a hurrican zone, and one might hit the place you live, stock up on hurrican suppplys and be prepared if one hits.

No more, no less.

Your argument is that Kerry is implying that a house on the corner or third and cedar will be hit by a flying lion who was picked up by high winds from the zoo three miles to the west and having not be fed that day, devours the family hiding in the Florida Room.

You add your own slant between the lines. Until Kerry directly states NUKE em' you have nothing to judge but Kerry weighing possibilities and preparing for all possible contingencies.

Another candidate, on the other hand, changes his stance OPENLY, PUBLICALLY FOUR times in a period of less than a ten days.

On January 31, Dean told Ron Brownstein of the Los Angeles Times that "if Bush presents what he considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization."

And then on Feb. 20, Dean told Salon.com that "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."

But a day later, he told the Associated Press that he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approves the move and backs it with action of its own. "They have to send troops," he said.

Four days later on PBS's News Hour with Jim Lehrer, Dean said United Nations authorization was a prerequisite for war. "We need to respect the legal rights that are involved here," Dean said. "Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them."

http://www.topdog04.com/000071.html

Kerry has been overwhemingly consistant in the terms and conditions he wants to be seen before resorting to unilateral action,and they are and have been VERY clear.

I mean. I have invested considerable effort and money into business ventures. The fact that I have done so does not indicate that I have had any success, and that before one can determine if I have been sucessful, more evidence must be provided. This parallels Kerry's reasoning.


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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-18-03 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #114
125. give 'em enough rope
eom
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-18-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. One of the major principals of law
From the legislative level, to traffic court, is that silence implies consent. Without an act that stated what Congress wanted the president to do before going to war, with no act, no vote, this legislative silence, under te American legal system implies consent, rather than dissent. If congress failed to pass an act that statede what it wished to see the president do, again, under law, it implies that they are giving him FULL support of any action he chooses to take.

It you see someone put poison into a persons drink, and to not question the person doing it, or warn the person about to drink it, by law, you are an accomplice to the act.

This is the basis for a lot of laws that are now on the books that state if you see someone in danger or about to be injured and you DO NOT HELP, you can be charged with a crime.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-03 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #126
130. One of the major principles of the United States Constitution
is the balance of powers. The Legislative branch reserves the power to declare war. Not without reason. On that topic, James Madison said:
"Of all the enemies of true liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manner and of morals, engendered in both. No nation can preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

"War is in fact the true nurse of executive aggrandizement. In war, a physical force is to be created; and it is the executive will, which is to direct it. In war, the public treasuries are to be unlocked; and it is the executive hand which is to dispense them. In war, the honors and emoluments of office are to be multiplied; and it is the executive patronage under which they are to be enjoyed; and it is the executive brow they are to encircle. The strongest passions and most dangerous weaknesses of the human breast; ambition, avarice, vanity, the honorable or venal love of fame, are all in conspiracy against the desire and duty of peace."

You have endeavored to draw a hard line between Bush's war and Kerry's support for war. You have endeavored in vain. The study of rhetoric, power, and American history show that war serves the executive branch to the detriment of liberty and democracy. You're reading of Kerry's speech is marred by your inability to come to grips with the rhetorical meanings it conveys. When those meanings are pointed out to you, in excruciating detail, you continue to cling to suppositions and contrary statements that in light of everything else that's been said, cannot be but half-truths. The evidence is there for all to see. I put it to you that your reading is irresponsible, and should not be accepted as reflecting the whole truth or the best understanding of Kerry's speech.

This is my closing argument.

Thank you for debating.




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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-03 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. Whatever Kerry's Fault In This Matter
Bush was completely in his power to "continue" the first Gulf War to enforce UN mandates - without bothering to check with the UN on that one. Separation of powers is not truly applicable.

However, I do agree that a large opposition in Congress, and a refusal to pay for the war would have eroded Bush's "mandate" or at least slowed things down - at least in theory.

However, you must also consider the real possibility that we might have been knee deep in Syria right now without the resolution.

Hard to speculate on what would serve the greater good - minority opposition or delimiting the theater of combat. In my heart, I felt this war was unnecessary, and therefore tragic beyond compare. I would have voted "no." I'm just not sure if that would have been the best option.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #46
56. The difference between signing the Act and not signing it
IS that Bush signed it. He agreed to its terms.

Now the question again. did he meet the terms. If he did, the war was authorized, If he did not, he just broke a law he agreed to observe. He agreed to the congressional restrictions of the act. If the act never was signed by Bush, or even written. Any action would have been legal, going to the U.N. or not. But he agreed to go, He agreed to exhaust all diplomatic efforts, to try to convince the U.N. to use force, and to present a real case, with real, valid intelligence that there was a good reason to go. If the act had never existed, he could haved said that he beleived he was acting to defend the U.S. from a percieved threat. Had to prove nothing. The act placed certain requirements on him to get support from Congress.

Again I ask...
Did he meet the terms...

If he did, he acted in accordence to Congressional Legislation, which his presidential oath obligates him to support and follow...

If he did not, he just comitted a high crime under the law...
But the timing of bringing this to light requires certain conditions. like a great deal of public outrage about no WMD's. Unless there is a great deal of public outcry. amd fear among even Republican congressmen. bringing up this little loophole in the act would be useless.

At the correct moment, it could cost the president aqn election.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. What, exactly, were the restraints?
I know we've been down this road before, but the way I read the resolution, it issues NO restraints and, as such, there are NO penalties for acting contrary to the alleged spirit of the resolution, as Kerry suggests.

Look, it's a bad piece of legislation.

I think Dean's stance on civil unions SHOULD be a federal mandate of acceptance. There are things that my chosen candidate supports that I don't. Can you honestly say that you agree with ALL of Kerry's views?
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Mercutio, I'm starting to see Nicholas' point . . .
I knew it was time to go to bed last night when Nicholas_J was starting to make sense to me :)

But Kerry didn't have control over the content of the bill. Both houses of congress are, after all, controlled by the Republicans, and even though the Senate has, what, 49 Democrats?, there are enough quislings in that group that a more dramatic stand, like a filibuster, probably wouldn't have worked out too well.

So there is a bill in congress that is a wishlist of what the Republican congress would like to see from this warmongering Republican president as he exercises de facto war against another nation. Kerry and other like-minded non-idiots work to make that bill as palatable as possible, knowing that it may not affect Bush's actions one way or the other (but it does put pressure on Bush to at least appear like he is trying to act within the approval of his own Republican-controlled congress). Kerry votes for it because even though it does not legally constrain Bush in any way, at least the congress goes on record as asking (politely) for some semblance of legality in our military action.

OK, so that makes some sense - the bill has no teeth, but Kerry has not much control over that.

He does, however, have control over what he does next with respect to the subsequent war which violates all of Bush's "promises" to him and/or the rest of Congress and/or the American people. Bush was not constrained either way by Congress, but he is responsible for his actions with respect to what Kerry believed when he made the speech.

Now, what is Kerry going to do to hold Bush responsible, quite apart from voting for or against this act? I've not been set on fire by Kerry's response so far, which seems to be just to let Bush get away with it. That is what congressional Democrats have been doing for far too long.

One thing a Democrat in congress needs to learn by now, is that when the Republicans screw you, you stand up and scream bloody murder. Don't let them ever seem to have the high ground. And of course, if Kerry is the nominee, the screwing the Republicans have planned for him has just begun.

Also, I consider myself fairly up to date on political news, if it took me this long to figure out the distinction between Kerry voting for this bill in Congress and giving or taking away power from Bush to wage war, then the rest of the voting public is likely to never get it.

Kerry needs to make the distinction that Nicholas_J is making loud and clear, constantly, so that people don't just assume he is a rubber-stamp for Bush. If people think he is (here comes the word) Bush-lite unfairly through their own ignorance, it still won't matter - Kerry needs to clear them up of their mis-information.

The first step in that would be to say why he opposes this illegal war that Bush has dragged us into, and he is not doing it. Why?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. That MAY be the case, but that's not what's said...
Kerry supporters usually try to spin it that the resolution he signed provided some kind of restrictions on Bush. The fact is (as we have discovered) there were none...at least none that are enforceable.

Call it what it is. If Kerry signed a toothless resolution with a plan in mind let him SAY that and let him say what he plans to do now. Personally, I believe the Dems should have made a HUGE media event of it and refused to sign it. At least they couldn't be accused, now, of supporting the war and would at least have a leg to stand on when criticizing this administration's blunders in Iraq.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. exactly right
it may not have been a procedural error, but it was a politcal blunder, and his continued silence of the major F-up that this war has become does hurt him - especially when he finally does decide to start highlighting the differences between Bush's foreign policies and his own. People will be saying "Where were you all this time"?

I'm saying it now.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. Rubber Stamping Professor Plum
Kerry has vocally opposed Bush's half-assed and reckless foreign policy ever since he signed that accursed paper. However, no matter how he slams Bush's diplomacy or the execution of the war, he always seems to miss the fundamental WRONGNESS of the war. While I agree that the inspections should have been backed by force, I still feel that there is nothing more tragic in life than an unnecessary war. And I truly feel this war was not necessary.

Something deep inside me is horrified by the events of the last few months, and my hatred of Bush knows no bounds - I literally cannot find one thing that he has ever done in his life that doesn't make me hate him more. And so there is something ultimately unsatisfying about Kerry's diplomatic anger. I admit that I get much more pleasure out of Dean's blasts. But that pleasure alone is not a reason to support someone, in my opinion.

I am absolutely confident that Kerry would have proceeded radically different as commander-in-chief, as would have Dean. But I truly feel that Kerry has the greater grasp of international politics and the longview that is required to fight against stateless terrorism. So, while I can't say I am 100% happy with Kerry's measured indignation at the past, I am 100% thrilled by the progressive internationalist vision he has presented for the future.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-03 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #66
102. That horrid paper
Is not the problem. OR Horrid.

It is the misrepreseentation of that paper that is horrid.

More than anyone else, Deans misrepresentation of the document in the public eye created a democratic rift,with democrats arguing MORE than with the administration. This gave Bush the willingess to take the risk, as his opposition was not united in requiring him to keep to the terms HE agreed to. Dean spit public opinion on those who did not support Bush, giving the Bush camp its own monolithic support.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #102
106. Then Kerry should make that point
LOUDLY. If Dean is misrepresenting his position, how much more so will Karl Rove? If Dean and Kerry both came out against Bush's war, what would anyone care what Kerry voted for? At least he would be speaking up for the right thing now. I can forgive a lot of someone who is willing to stick it to Bush.

My opinion is that Kerry should join Dean in denouncing the war in no uncertain terms, instead of Dean joing Kerry in very quietly "vigorously opposing" the war to himself.

And you also seem to think that (multilateral) violence against Iraq is A-OK. If that is your position, then what is your problem with Dean's position (which is that multilateral force, applied legally, is fine, but that unilateral force, applied illegally, is wrong?) (by wrong I mean illegal).

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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
70. Kerry needs to keep this distinction as low key as possible.
Bush signed a legal agreement to take certain steps beore engaging in Iraq. To do Certain things at the U.N., show certain proofs to Congress.

Only if Bush can be proven to to have deceived Congress, can the elements of this act that can catch Bush in illegal actions begin to become operative. To use those elements now, in order to make a big personal political splash would be a Dean move, and allow the rat to escape the trap.

Only when it is made clear,crystal clear, that the president had no valid reasons to go to war, and deceived the nation to stop the use of diplomatic methods, can the act be used against the president. But the evidence must be inescapably clear. There must be No extenuating circumstances that Bush and his clique can give in order for the obligations that Bush had under this act to be used against him.

Without THIS act. Without any Congressional terms for Congressional support, Bush was as completely free to act in Iraq as Clinton was in Somalia, Haiti, The Balkans, etc. With NO political consequences.

Bush agreed not to act until he had done certain things, and offered certain valid proofs. Not bogus ones.


This bill had to be NEGOTIATED. Bush wanted complete political support to act. But he did not need it. So Bush agreed to certain terms, and Dems agreed to support him if and only if he honored the terms. He didnt, so they never supported what he did after abandoning the diplomatic route.

Bush decided he was secure enough to go without support. But now they are beginning to worry, change their reasons AGAIN, for going to war, and Kerry and the dems will wait until Bush sticks his head in a noose before kicking the chair out from under him. They are going to have a working plan for winning, not like the losing plan they had for winning in congress in 2002. And they will not give anything away before they need to.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #58
74. Finally
At least someone has a faint glimmer on constitutional law at last. After posting the same information OVER 200 times.

Congress has no authority to restict, restrain, issue ony kind of punisment or consequences for presidential use of force. Congress cannot legislate the presidents authority over the military in ANY way. There is nothing in the constitution that gives them the authority to change the separation of powers in ANY way.

That bill has several very sharp teeth. But the bill has yet to have bitten.

But this microwave generation expects results in weeks, days, or even hours.

It took more than ten years to get the U.S. out of Vietnam. Not just a few protests of a a few million people around the world for a few weeks. It took a few kids being KILLED at Kent State.

It took years to get a president who broke the law to resign before being impeached.

It is going to take more than a few months for anyone to attempt to use this war againt Bush. And one of the primary tools that will do this was the Act signed in October. There will be a large number of embarassed individuals when this happens.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #74
84. It will be too late by then
you may expect to win the technical point, but by then the PR war will be long since over and lost.

I don't want to hear about some phantom wrongdoing that will, in the end, trip Bush up. The real wrongdoings he has already committed are plenty to take him to task for.

Bush Sr. pardoning all of his fellow conspirators for Iran-Contra hasn't caught up with him, for example.

It's not just about right or wrong, it is about PR and glitz - positioning yourself so that even the mouth-breathers in the public understand where you are coming from, and why you are right or wrong.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #84
89. That will not prevent
The next republican president. Or any other president from doing the same thing.

The wrongdoing's you are speaking about are NOT wrongdoing .Without the Iraq Act in October, everytyhing Bush did was legal, and under his constitutional obligations RIGHT, correct, morally sound, decent.

You really do not get it. This is a fight that is not contained to one campaign, one election. It is a fight to correct the same kind of flaw in the Constitution that first allowed slavery to exist for nearly 90 years after it was written, and for women to be disenfranchised from voting for nearly 150 years.

And the Idea that one should exloit it is exactly what Is wrong with Dean and his supporters. They want finger puppet political explanations.

It is funny, I have a friend from Sengal, who has been here for three years, and understand the American political system better than every Dean supporter I have seen post on DU.

It may take even more wars, and attempts by congress to limit the president in these cases, and for presidents to agree to be limited, but it is not going to happen in a few months.

It is this lack of looking ten years aheard that go Bush elected, and has gotten Dean any support. It is ashame that Deans campaign is a tissue of falsehoods, that have no basis in his own record. If he actually had any intention of keeping his word, Dena would be a good candidate. But there is nothing in his record that even remotelyt sugests that he will.

It is not going to be fixed by PR OR GLITZ. And I am glad to see Kerry as someone who atempots to fix this, than, to utilize it in a slick campaign.

Once, in the Senate Cloakroom, Kerry overheard someone taling about him placing himself in a position in which he would be attacked by Congress, and that he was setting heimself to be dispised by the administration.

Kerry's response was said to have been. I dont give a S**t about being liked. Not here to be liked. Here to do the job I was sent here to do by those who voted for me.

When a bunch of students held a sit in at his office when Kerry suigned this legislation, he came out and talkked to the students, told them, them his stance, told them he had been in COngress for quite a while and knew what he was doing. ow to deal with presidents who did thing he didnot think were correct. HE also told them that if they din not like this, they didnt have to vote for him...



Kerry's
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #89
107. WOW!
Kerry really sounds tough when he talks to people in the Senate cloakroom. Too bad he can't sound like that when talking to the press and the public.

Look - it really isn't my goal to bash Kerry here. He said last fall that a hypothetical war fought in a particular way is hypothetically bad, but now he won't say that an actual war fought in that exact way is actually bad. That is inconsistent.

I can live with this inconsistency. I have voted for (much) worse candidates than Kerry before, because they were better than their opponents. That's a fact of political adulthood. I just like to know where candidates stand on things.

You've done nothing to convince me that Kerry's "stance" on this war is not a) inconsistent and b) politically calculated, but again, I can live with a bit of that. I just thought there might have been more to it, but you've disabused me of that.

Soldiering on, you state that "Without the Iraq Act in October, everytyhing Bush did was legal, and under his constitutional obligations RIGHT, correct, morally sound, decent". So, presumably, what Bush has done with the Iraq Act in place is illegal.

What won't Kerry say he is against an illegal war?
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #107
112. I'll ask it again
Edited on Thu Jul-17-03 02:02 PM by ProfessorPlum
since I'm not getting any lengthy, illogical, non-sequiters in reply: If this was an illegal war, why won't Kerry come right out and say he is against it?

Did I "win" this argument? Was it merely a victory of attrition?
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #112
119. No
Your arguments are irrelevant.

An ILLEGAL war, by who's legal definition.

You ask an interesting question.

Was the war illegal. Constitutionally, the answer is a clear resounding NO.

What was wrong, was the diplomatic blunders that resulted from the presidents actions. Kerry's original statements in SPETEMBER, about the war are proving completely correct:


We Still Have a Choice on Iraq
>
>September 6, 2002
>By JOHN F. KERRY

There is, of course, no question about our capacity to win
militarily, and perhaps to win easily. There is also no
question that Saddam Hussein continues to pursue weapons of
mass destruction, and his success can threaten both our
interests in the region and our security at home. But
knowing ahead of time that our military intervention will
remove him from power, and that we will then inherit all or
much of the burden for building a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq,
is all the more reason to insist on a process that invites
support from the region and from our allies. We will need
that support for the far tougher mission of ensuring a
future democratic government after the war.


The question is not whether we should care if Saddam
Hussein remains openly scornful of international standards
of behavior that he agreed to live up to. The question is
how we secure our rights with respect to that agreement and
the legitimacy it establishes for the actions we may have
to take. We are at a strange moment in history when an
American administration has to be persuaded of the virtue
of utilizing the procedures of international law and
community - institutions American presidents from across
the ideological spectrum have insisted on as essential to
global security...


For the sake of our country, the legitimacy of our cause
and our ultimate success in Iraq, the administration must
seek advice and approval from Congress, laying out the
evidence and making the case. Then, in concert with our
allies, it must seek full enforcement of the existing
cease-fire agreement from the United Nations Security
Council. We should at the same time offer a clear ultimatum
to Iraq before the world: Accept rigorous inspections
without negotiation or compromise. Some in the
administration actually seem to fear that such an ultimatum
might frighten Saddam Hussein into cooperating. If Saddam
Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international
community's already existing order, then he will have
invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at
the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if
the Security Council fails to act. But until we have
properly laid the groundwork and proved to our fellow
citizens and our allies that we really have no other
choice, we are not yet at the moment of unilateral
decision-making in going to war against Iraq.

http://www.massgreens.org/pipermail/needtoknow/2002-September/000206.html


Again, WHO, is empowered to send troops to act in circumstances that are considered a threat to national security, or U.S. interests.

Where is that power granted, and to who is that power granted.

According to the constitution, the president engaged in legal military use of force.

Now what has been created is the public impression that the Iraq Act somehow gave the President a "blank check". Kerry now must deal with a misrepresentation of the act, rather than the act itself.

The supporters of the one candidate I think is least qualified, seem to expect hair pulling, and public yelling and screaming.

The kind who overturn the chessboard when they have no game plan, and it is obvious they are losing ground.

Sorry, cool, clear, guarded deliberation is the best way to win the game.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #119
132. Ummm. . .
"An ILLEGAL war, by who's legal definition."

I'm pretty sure this war breaks a lot of international law.

"Sorry, cool, clear, guarded deliberation is the best way to win the game."

It's been working like gangbusters so far. Just look at the way Democrats are dominating all three branches!


All right, sarcasm off. I don't want yelling and screaming, but I would prefer it if Kerry opposed the war as a mistake and a crime against the people of this nation, and the people of Iraq.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. You concept of Deans idea of federal mandate of exceptance
Show that most Dean supporters klnow almost nothing about the constitution. Civil union, lies TOTALLY within the purview of STATE power. There is no federal marriage license. There is NO federal authority to tell the states what they must do regarding marriage.
AS a matter of fact, Deans own use of Civil Union as a substitute for equal marriage rights may still be determined unconsituttional eventually, as separate but equal, for schools was declared unconstitutional.

Secondly. The lack of understanding of Congressional authority regardin war powers among the anti-war crowd astounds me. Congress has no authority to restric presidential uuse of military force. Such congressional power does not exist.

. Congress can lay down terms to the president for what he must do to gain their support for the use of force, but they have no, zero, zip, nada power to restrain the presidental authority to orde the military to take any action the president considers necesary. Congress cannot alter the powers granted to the president through act of Congress. That itsself is the very purpose of the separation of powers in the constitution. The only rason we keep having this argument is that you do not seem to get this very simple fact that is the very heart of the constitution. You cna have your opinion, but if your opinion was correct, congress would have been able to stop every president in the since the end of WWII from acting militarily on his own. Presidents would have been impeached for exceeding their constitutional authority. The power of Congress to tell the president he cannot engage in the use of force does not exist.


The question,you ask, what restraints, what penalties existed in the act is simply a staement that serves no purpose. No such restraints or punishments cannot be issue at all. Congress has no power to do so.

Congress could not punish Clinton for sending troops to Somalia and the Balkans. They disagreed with him, the did not support it. But they had no authority to stop it. It does not matter if the president is sending 100 peackeeping troops into a combat zone or 100,000 to Iraq. He needs no support, authorization, declaration of war, special budget, anything at all. It might be politically helpful for him if he had their support. But if he does not care, he can tell them to take a flying leap.

The reverse is true. If Congress decided to declare war on Greenland, and the president did not want to go to war, disagreed. There would be no military action taken against Greenland.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #69
94. Two issues...
1) I stated that it was my OPINION that civil unions SHOULD be a civil rights issue. I didn't say that they WERE a federal issue at this time. I would, however, like to see them elevated to the same level of importance as any discrimination legislation.

2) Of the war resolution, you stated (about Bush) "He agreed to the congressional restrictions of the act". In the post I'm replying to, you say "The question,you ask, what restraints, what penalties existed in the act is simply a staement that serves no purpose. No such restraints or punishments cannot be issue at all. Congress has no power to do so." Which is it? Does the resolution contain restraints or not? If so, how do you resolve that with your statement that Congress can't constitutionally issue such restraints? If not, why would you say that signing it was the only way of forcing Bush to involve the U.N.?
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. The resolution does not have restraints or penalties
Because it CANNOT have restraints or penalties.

You might as well ask why the president cannot penalize congress for passinmg legislation he does not like. It is Congresses constitutional apointed power to write and pass legislation, and the president CANNOT change the rules set in the constitution regarding Congressional Power. Likewise, Congress cannot take away or penalize the president for using HIS constitutiolly appointed powers in ways Congress does not approve of. AND one of the presidnets powers is to be the CIVILIAN authority electedt to control the military and ALL of its action.

The only penalty to not complying is that if the president DOES not comply with the resolution, Congress will not support, his use of force in Iraq. AGAIN and I hope you read it this time:

The Constitution's division of powers leaves the President with some exclusive powers as Commander-in-Chief (such as decisions on the field of battle), Congress with certain other exclusive powers (such as the ability to declare war and appropriate dollars to support the war effort), and a sort of "twilight zone" of concurrent powers. In the zone of concurrent powers, the Congress might effectively limit presidential power, but in the absence of express congressional limitations the President is free to act. Although on paper it might appear that the powers of Congress with respect to war are more dominant, the reality is that Presidential power has been more important--in part due to the modern need for quick responses to foreign threats and in part due to the many-headed nature of Congress.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/warandtreaty.htm

Congress MIGHT effctively limit a presidents action, but they cannot STOP, those actions.

It is ALWAYS better for a president to take ANY controversial action with either majority support, or complete bi-partisan support of Congress. But he can decide to take the political risk and go it alone, or just with the support of hisown party, if he feels he has significant public support.

If the president WANTS support for a war, gone into for a certain purpose, Congress has to set the termns for their support of that war, for that exact purpose.

So they write Biden-Lugar, which astates the president gets their support for the a war agaisnt Iraq to get rid of WMD's.

The president THEN changes his mind and decides he really is going because Iraq is harboring Al Qaeda. Then in order to attempt to limit the president if he wants Congresional support, they must write AN NEW ACT, which says that if the president wants their support, can do so if he proves that Iraq supported Al Qaeda.

The act does not restrict, cannot restrict, cannot punish the president for doing what the constitution makes it legal for him to do, and that is to act militarily, to defend the U.S. from ANY threat deemed as such BY THE PRESIDENT. The Constitution does not state that Congress must approve, or agree with the president that such a threat exist, or is merely the presidents opinion. The president is free to act, even if it is merely his opinion. Or even if he is completely psychotic and is imagining the whole thing. Even then, the only thing that could be used was to stop him would be by proving he was not medically fit to serve.

The president WANTED support, but did not and does not need it. It would be politically safer if he went to war with COMPLETE Congressional approval. Congress agreed to support the president, if the president agreed to follow the terms in the act. THe ONLY penalty and restraint that the act had to offer was to NOT support the president if he went to war without fulfilling his half of the bargain. Which is what happened.

You are completely arguing an argument which cannot be argued.
You have no consitutional, or legal basis from which to argue it.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-03 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #98
103. I'm not arguing, I'm asking you which of your statements you stand by
I fully realize that the President does not NEED Congressional support. My point is that they GAVE it to him. You stated that the best thing for the Dems to do was to vote in favor of the resolution, as it provided "restrictions" (your word, not mine). In other posts, you've stated that Bush could do what he wished with or without the resolution, so it made no difference whether or not it passed.

I'm saying that it was a bad vote, in my opinion. You obviously have the right to a different opinion, but don't tell me that mine doesn't count because I "don't understand Constitutional law".

I think the Dems that voted for it did so to protect their collective political asses and not for any honorable reason. That's my opinion.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-03 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #103
111. that's your opinion
and your'e exactly right.

If they believed the transparent lies of the Bush regime, if they chose to ignore the protestations, and exhortations of thousands across the country and globe who had legitimate, and increasingly validated concerns, and opted to vote for and support that monstrosity of a resolution, then in my mind they are either stupid (and I don't think most of them are), ignorant (only if they choose to remain so) or actively duplicitous, which is to say, complicit.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #111
115. Are We In Syria?
How about Iran?

Look, I'm not defending every word that has ever come out of Kerry's mouth. But to say the resolution was worthless is just plain wrong. If it accomplished anything, it at least kept Bush from creeping over the borders to create another Cambodia. Yes, it appeared to give legitimacy far too easily to Bush's insane machinations, requiring very little accountability in creating the conditions for weapons inspections enforcement. That's a fact. The resolution should have been stronger. Without pressure from Dem leadership to pass it before the elections, it most certainly would have.

But whatever large faults it may have had, it did put pressure on Bush to go to the UN (even if it didn't force him to stand by the Security Council's decisions), and it did limit mission creep. By bogging down Bush in the UN, the inconsistencies of his schemes became more and more apparent - giving time and fuel to the anti-war movement. The protests of February would not have happened in October.

Given lemons, Kerry made lemonade. Perhaps it is not to your taste, but that doesn't make it piss. Jeez, what an awful metaphor...
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-03 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #103
123. Again
Edited on Thu Jul-17-03 10:47 PM by Nicholas_J
Your assumption is that they gave it to him, becasue you assume that he met the conditions within the act.Thes act WAS conditional. If he did, then you are stating thar YOU beleive that Bush did what he was supposed to and the war was legal. You beleive that because Bush decided to go to war, Congress agreed that he met the terms of the act and they agreed that he did. Provide your proof that they all agreed that he had complied with the terms they set.

The question is:

Did Bush meet ALL of the terms set for him within the act.
And did all of the members of Congress agree that he met the terms set within the act.

To not have created such and act, specifying what congress wanted to see, OR not passing such an act with congressional terms for their support, would, by Congressional law, be stating that they COMPLETELY and WHOLEHEARTEDLY supported ANY action the president chose to take. That is the heart of the area of concurrent war powers. Ifr you do not create an act, they you are giving total approval to anything the president chooses to do, by constitutional law.

You are stating that they should not have signed a conditional act, therefore stating they totally approved of any action the president chose to take regarding Iraq. Without going to the U.N., without inspectors. you are stating that, through not signing the act, they should have simply not acted, and thus give their assent to the president doing anything he wished, and thus, he would have had their approval through silence. Under the law, silence implies CONSENT, not DISSENT.

This is very common in law. If you see somebody commit a crime, such as a murder, and do not report it, you are cosidered to a be an accessory to this crime, by keeping it sectret.

The last section of the act required Bush to provide proofs in writing before he went to war, or as soon as possible afterwards (within 48 hours), that there was an imminent threat, in order for Congress to determine if he had sufficient reason to do so.

He sent the letters to the Speaker of the House, and to the President of the Senate, Pro-Tempore.

But neither house met to debate the proofs, as they were supposed to.

Did he then have their support?
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MA_firebrand Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
34. I don't buy it
Edited on Wed Jul-09-03 07:09 PM by MA_firebrand
it was a stupid thing to do. His reasoning was like that of hilary clinton, saving face because they knew their beliefs were not very popular. This was somewhat of a betrayal. I still like Kerry, though I prefer dean. :argh:
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
61. This is what I have to say
Any candidate who gave their constitutional power away to a smirking, illegitimate fraud, and who had the opportunity to rectify their rash vote when it was more than apparent to the entire world that there was no foundation for the case to invade, but was more concerned that they be viewed in a positive light during the popular nationalism frenzy, framed and exploited by the Right, at the expense of leadership for the opposition, foregoing defense of the truth, does not deserve consideration for the presidency.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. What contitutional power...
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 06:58 PM by Nicholas_J
Tell me where the constitution give Congress the right to tell the president what to do with the military.

Declaration of War, has nothing to do with engagement of trrops or military action. It is a statemnmt of diplomatic condition between two nations. That is where many people make the mistake that congress somehow gave away their congressional power. Again, more misdirection form a non Congressional candidate, who is giving inaccurate civics lessons to the public. He is preying on their complete ignorance, and their opinions on Constitutional Law, and not on the law itself. Which is why NO presendent in U.S. history has ever been brought up on charges of using the military without congressional authority.

No president needs it. Politically they might WANT it. But they do not need it.
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. If what you say is correct...

then why did Congress have to vote at all? What was the point?

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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. The point was
Bush wanted congressional support...A declaration of war if he could get it...Biden-Lugar was not broad enough. Stating that congress would agree to war only if there was proof of WMD's.

But Bush could then go and state that he was obligated to take out Husseins regime because they were harboring, training, and providing funding to Al Qaeda (like Afgahistan). So he could get around Biden-Lugar and go to war without going to the U.N. for other reasons. So Biden Lugar was a bad bill. Creating a bill that required Bush to go to the U.N. in order to use diplomatic solutions to ALL of the reasons he kept on stating he had to use force for was optimal. If he wanted congressional support, he had to go to the U.N. for WMD's to support U.N. reolutions, to deal with international terrorism. Or give Congress good inteligence that there was reason to go it alone.

Bush wanted Congressional support in order to avoid what is happening right now. Questions abbout lying about WMD's, false intelligence and so on. If Congress gave there support, all of congress would have to face the heat with him.

If any of you remember, back in September it was the same old Wolfowitz/Rumsfeld vs Powell struggle in the executive branch. Powell wanted international co-operation, the other two insisting on the doctrine of pre-emptive strike, and the U.S. having the right to defend itself against terrorism, W.M.D.'s, and to force Iraq to abide by the terms Saddam enbtered into at the end of the gulf war. Bush was ready to go to war at the end of the summer season in late October Early November. Powell convinced Bush to get conressional support to go to the U.N. to do this.

But the Bill he approved and signed was loaded with comitments Bush did not expect, and neither did Wolfowitz or Rumsfeld. When Resolution 1441 was entered into, it called for the activation of UNMOVIC and the IAEA. But 1441 did not call for any special rules for the inspectors to operate under. Or a timetable. Which meant they were to operate under the U.N. rules for the inspectors. Which meant a minimum of SIX months of inspections before the inspectors came back with a final report. Exactly on the date that Hans Blix just gave his report, and retired as head of UNMOVIC. The end of June.

Bush discovered that Kerry and Gephardt (the authors of the international diplomacy sections of the bill)and congressional democrats basically screwed him, because by the time the inpectors finished the first report, it would have been in the heat of summer again, outside of his timetable to beat the heat. And then if inspectors came back saying, No WMD's in Iraq, all Bush had to rely on was nothing, because it would have indicated thatIraq had not broken the 17 odd resolutions that Bush said Iraq had broken at best. And at worse, If Blix came back and said that inspections had failed because Saddam was blocking efforts to find them, then the security council would have no choice but to authorize the use of force. But this would have to wait at least until late next October, early November.

So Bush decided HE had met the terms of the act, abandoned the diplomatic efforts as being useless and not likely to result in getting Saddam to abide by the resolutiond Iraq had agreed to. He decided he had proved to Congress the threat from Saddam. Congressional Democrats did not agree. And still do not.

Bush needed congressional support for political security, not for authorization. He never got that support, because he abandoned the terms of the act. He never fulfulled the terms of the act, which were to exhaust all diplomatic means of solving the probles with Saddams breaking the terms set at the end of the Gulf War. HE never provided acceptable proof to the U.N. to put together a U.N. military coalition. And lastly, he never provided the proof that Congress required of him to go it alone.

So he decided he didnt need anyones support at all again, went with the Wolfowitz/Rumsfeld plan, and attacked without Congressional support.

Bush needed the bill for political security. Congress needed one to limit what Bush could do. before going to war in Iraq.They could not stop him, the could not restrain him, they could not set any sort of punishment for going to war, but they could try to channel him through the international community first. That is the basic set up o the constitutional separation of war power. Under constitutional law, If congress does not set up the conditions that they want to see from a president BEFORE the president acts, under constitutional law, an assumption of approval of the presidents actions exists. If they provide a set of items they want the president to perform before getting their support, then if the president wants political support from congress for his actions, he will do what they want first, in order to get their support for his actions.

What is happening to Tony Blair right now, will begin to happen to Bush eventually, because BUSH signed the Iraq Act as well. HE made his obligation to exhaust diplomatic effort, get the U.N. to go alon, or to provide proof to COngress of GOOD reasons to go it alone, law. If the act never existed, under constitutional law, he would be home free right now. Nothing to explain to anyone. Except in 2004 at the ballot box.
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AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. So basicly...

the bill was kind of like a political cover for Bush. A "See Congress said it was ok" kind of thing. But Bush didn't follow what Congress wanted so the bill was still a waste of time. But, Dems couldn't look bad especially with an election coming up and Bush pushing the vote on them just before the 2002 election and it was just after the one year anniversary of September 11th, 2001. So it was a no win situation for the Dems.

But, I'm still just so proud of my rep Jim McDermott for voting against it especially since he was also up to election, but his legislative district includes Seattle so that wasn't much of a surpise. But he did get (I think) almost 70% (maybe more) of the vote so I was surprised about that. He came in and marched in a couple of the protest marches and that was just so cool.

Anyway, thanx for the explanation.

Dave (AmyStrange.com)

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
WMD article Index and Archives: http://WMD.seattleactivist.org/


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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #78
82. Kerry needs to say, 'I made a huge mistake. Chimpy tricked me. I'm
sorry' and move one.

Dean '04
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. Akkkk! You just said that Biden-Lugar was worse for Bush than
the resolution that Kerry (and the rest) voted for. You don't really believe that, do you?
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #79
91. It is obvious that Biden-Lugar
Was far far worse. Because it only dealt with ONE of the reasons that Bush said he had the right to overthrow Hisseins regime with NO SUPPORT from Congress OR the U.N. Biden Lugar only Deals with Bush's statements about WMD's but he easily got around theat by claiming his right to go after regimes that support Al-Qaeda, just as he did in Afghanistan, so if they said they would only support in case of proof of WMD's, poof, by magic, proof of One of the 9/11 terrorist meeting with an Iraqi Agent in Prague begins to circulate.

Your major flaw in logic is that you havesome sort of belief that by legislation. Congress can stop the president from attacking anywhere he sees a threat to the U.S. They cannot, and you cannot find one constitutional lawyer who will support that stance.

Thus, the MORE conditions an act sets for the president to meet before getting Congressional support, the more possible effectiveness the act will have. Biden Lugar set ONE and ONE condition ONLY to get the congressional support the president said he did not need, but WANTED. THe Iraq Atc set many conditions.

Another error you pewople are making is in assuming WHAT Kerry is saying that the president lied to him about. It was not the evidence of WMD's. But that the president would abide by the act, and not break it.

It would have been easiuer for him to get around Biden-Lugar, by using ANY of the other reasons to justify going into Iraq alone. Without the Iraq Act in October, he could have just as well claimed he was going in to end a horrible humanitarian situation, and he would have been completetly justified, under constitutional law.
Or because there was evidence that Saddam was assisting Al Qaeda.
There is nothing constitutionally required for the president to go to the U.N. to do so. CLinton went a number of places for humanitarian reasons and congress couldnt do jack.

Deans statements about the act did more to harm efforts to constrain the president with the act, than to prevent the presidents actions, by dividing public opinion, in making the president stick to the terms in the act. The divisiveness Dean inserted into the opposition to the war, let Bush divide and conquer (Baghdad).

A united front, demanding that Bush exhaust all diplomatic efforts would have been far more effective, than Deans sniping at the other candidates, out of sheer political opportunism.

Dean was Bush's best weapon in going against the act.He made Bush feel absolutely assured that he could risk it, because Dean kept Democrats too divided to offer a united effort to force Bush into keeping to the agreement.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #91
108. What has Kerry done to demand that Bush stick to the terms of the act?
Answer: nothing. I know, I know, I don't understand the incredible subtlety of Kerry's inscrutable mindgame waged against Bush - how there is nothing in the act that enforces it anyhow, et cetera. It's probably because I'm just a dumb PhD scientist and not a lawyer.

You are dancing so hard there is smoke coming up out of your shoes.

If you cannot see that Kerry is inconsistent (Where was the person who wrote/delivered the statement at the start of this thread, all through the rush to war and its aftermath?) then I want some of what you are smoking.

Take it easy. From now on, I'll just agree that everything Kerry does is exactly the right thing, without question, and I'll try not to remember the things he has said and done in the past, lest I come upon some other embarrasing inconsistency.

Sheesh.

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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #79
92.  I didnt say it was worse for Bush
I said it was a worse resoluution thatn the Iraq act, because it did not require Bush to go to the U.N. for the other reasons he was stating he had the right to go to war far. All Biden Lugar- dealt with was congress giveing support to Bush only for reasons of WMD's

So Bush then started coming up with a lot of OTHER reaons that he could go to war with Iraq for, without congressional support. So congressional demos just stucl ALL of the other reasons that Bush wanted to go to war for into the resolution in order for them to get his support.

AS I Keep posting:

The Constitution's division of powers leaves the President with some exclusive powers as Commander-in-Chief (such as decisions on the field of battle), Congress with certain other exclusive powers (such as the ability to declare war and appropriate dollars to support the war effort), and a sort of "twilight zone" of concurrent powers. In the zone of concurrent powers, the Congress might effectively limit presidential power, but in the absence of express congressional limitations the President is free to act. Although on paper it might appear that the powers of Congress with respect to war are more dominant, the reality is that Presidential power has been more important--in part due to the modern need for quick responses to foreign threats and in part due to the many-headed nature of Congress

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/warandtreaty.htm

So congress sets limits related to WMD's in order to get there support. Bush provides other reasons, and if COngress didnt inclide them in the act, it IMPLIES support for his actions, rather than opposition, according to congressional law.

SO Biden-Lugar states that Bush must provide proof of WD's before they will SUPPORt his gfoing to war.But if they do not include other conditions that the president comes up with, the omission means they agree with his going, not oppose it.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
62. My cynical perspective
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 01:13 PM by GreenArrow
Kerry knew or suspected Bush and his team were lying. Kerry constructed an argument in favor of supporting the "war" that allowed him leeway whether Bush was telling the truth or otherwise. If Bush was right, then Kerry is a patriotic supporter of all our freedoms, and a protector of the American way of life.

If Bush was lying, then JK and the Democrats could nail him later, as the truth started to seep out. "I voted with the President based on the lies he told me. I believed him, but he decieved me, and all of us."

He can't really lose either way, so he takes the classic fence sitting postion, a position based purely on political expediency and self interest. Too bad that we had to kill thousands of Iraqis, destoy a nation's resources, history, and culture, steal their resources, pollute their land and water, spark the contempt and enmity of the rest of the world, contribute to the bankruptcy of our country, and sacrifice of an as yet unknown number of our soldiers to accomplish Bush's ill defined and greedy objectives.

Now Kerry is saying the pResident misled him. I don't believe his protestations, or Hilary's or those of anyone who voted for Dubya's oil and power grab. Sorry, these people aren't stupid, and they are playing power games. I've been reading over a number of statements made by those who voted for the Iraq resolution, and they are full of statements that are ignorant or misleading at best, or worse yet, simply duplicitous. At absolute worst they are complicitous. Just MO.

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RegenerationMan Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
95. Kerry is thinking of the General Election
Anything he says now can be used by Rove, who will have $250 million to spend in the general election. So Kerry is thinking of how to win the swing in the general. He has to walk a thin line until then.
And don't forget his wife's money can be used for independent advertising, so Kerry is still all of our best bets, despite all the good politicking by Dean and Kucinich.

Dean on the other hand has nothing to lose so he can throw one haymaker after another and then hopes he can go to the middle and beat the $250 million with about $100 million and no Dean advertising between March and September while Rove creams him on a daily basis that whole time. That's why Dean is a non-starter in the general, even with better than average grassroots. Teresa Kerry would hammer Bush with about $50 million from March to September and still have $70 million for the general.

Can Mrs. Dean match that?
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-03 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. You are forgetting
The 97 million in Kerry's total election chest, from his senatorial runs, ( he raised a lot of money last time, but ran unopposed, so didnt have to spend a nickel). AND what he collected in 2000, before dropping out.

Kerry is toying with Dean. Every time Dean raises money, Kerry pulls two or three million out of the 97 million dollar war chest to jump ahead.
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UnapologeticLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-18-03 08:04 PM
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128. I am going to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt
While the timing would lend to suspicions that Kerry's vote was based purely on political calculation, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and take his word for it on why he voted for the war. I would never accuse someone who has served his country in a war, particularly someone whose experience in combat turned him into an anti-war advocate when he came home, of taking a vote on whether to send troops into battle lightly. And he makes some good points, and I believe that he was honestly torn about what the right thing to do was.

The thing is, while I understand his nuanced position, I am afraid the average American will see him as waffling and indecisive at a time when people on both ends of the spectrum want strong and decisive leadership. Honestly, I think Kerry shot himself in the foot by voting for the war, because he has a lot of credibility on military issues and could have been a powerful voice against the war the way he was after Vietnam. Instead, he has pissed off the anti-war liberals by voting for it and at the same time pissed off the right by calling for regime change in the middle of the war. (How dare he suggest replacing the president! :rolleyes: )

So I have respect for Kerry, and I will take his words at face value as to why he voted for the war. But I think that his stance, which to most people will seem just like strattling both sides of the fence even if he is genuine, will hurt him a lot. Already, we can see the press picking apart his every word and second-guessing his every minor inconsistency (i.e. saying that his first statement in the Senate was supporting Roe v. Wade when it was actually his second, or whatever that whole bru-ha-ha was about!) They are doing to him the same thing they did to Gore, and it is going to be his downfall.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-18-03 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. Most Americans Supported The War But Thought It Was Done Poorly
I think Kerry's ambivalence about the war was indicative of the American temperment as a whole. The conditions he presented for disarmament were widely shared by most Americans, including the anti-war movement. Most of the anti-war movement was NOT made up of ideological pacifists in the Howard Zinn mode - they believed that certain circumstances could demand the use of violent action.

The question is not his ambivalence, which was widespread, but the authority given to Bush to ride roughshod over that ambivalence. There is little question that Bush failed to promote a coalition and prepare for the inevitable power vacuum once Saddam was removed. The question remains should he have been given a free hand to enact these failures.

The argument is whether or not the good that came from the resolution (limits to the theater, pressure to at least bother with the UN) were worth the inability to publicly denounce Bush's initiatives with a "no" vote.

Kerry is painted as "waffling" because he voted "yes" with conditions he could not enforce - in fact, he had given away his ability to enforce them with the "yes" vote. Whether or not a "no" vote would have given him any more leverage is debatable (as Nicholas_J has done), but he would at least have appeared consistent.
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