The Bottom Line

[Mairead]

Twenty-five years ago, on 15th December 1978, Dennis Kucinich, the then-32-y.o. mayor of Cleveland Ohio, stood up for the People against the robber barons. The barons demanded he sell out the People, and he said 'No'.

The elites don't like people who say 'no' to them. They expect people to bend the knee and kiss their ring--they're entitled! So they made sure he paid for his lèse majesté. They took 15 years out of his career. He couldn't even find a non-political job in Cleveland because they blacklisted him.

No other candidate for President has stood up for the People against the wealthy elites. Not one. And if Kucinich had sold out, too, then he, not Voinovich, would have been anointed and made governor and then senator. It would be 'Senator Kucinich, former Governor of Ohio' today.

What's the bottom line, then?

It's that you DUers who support other candidates have no room to whine about how the Daschles are spineless and the Feinsteins always sell us out. Because by not supporting Kucinich, you're saying that real integrity isn't important to you. That any politician who's fool enough to put their butt on the line for you had better kiss it goodbye, because you'll turn your back and vote for someone more 'pragmatic'.

You think the Daschles and the Feinsteins don't know how spineless you are? Guess again.

That's the bottom line.

[Freddie Stubbs]

1. He bankrupted Cleveland and made it the laughingstock of America

Voinavich rose because he cleaned up the mess that little Dennis left.

[OhioStateProgressive]

2. DO you live in Ohio????

i must ask...because he is not regarded as a laughing stock in Cleveland...nor Ohio

the river caught fire in 1968...that is what Cleveland is made fun of for...and don't tell em otherwise, because as a resident of that location at one time...i have heard them all, and never once did someone make fun of Cleveland for Dennis Kucinich

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. No, I live in Pennsylvania

If he had been a success as Mayor, the would have been reelected. there are more Democrats in Clevelend than Republicans.

[dpbrown]

4. Kucinich saved public power from the Enron of his day

People who don't know the difference between "default" and "bankrupt" ought not to be smearing candidates so visciously.

[OhioStateProgressive]

5. yes:)

the orignial reason for the problem with Muni light was the previous Republican Mayor, and subsequent Big Money Democratic mayor

Dennis was lfet with a shitpile, and made sure the average person wasn't affected by it

he fell on his sword to save the poor people, and downtown businesses

[Freddie Stubbs]

44. My mistake

He caused the city to default on his loans. I know the story, the Cleveland banks were conspiring to destroy Kucinich. If that were the case, why didn't he simply get loans from another bank. There are literaly thousands of banks in the United States. Not one of them would give the city a loan? It was that screwed up?

[OhioStateProgressive]

46. wait

the city has rules about this stuff...you can't go getting loans like you would if you were buying a home

official city loans were thru that bank, that same bank had 5 board member on CEi's board at the same time

they defaulted the loans, once they were defaulted Dennis DID start the official paperwork to guarantee new loans...George Voinovich finalized Dennis's loan proposals

[Mairead]

6. Check your facts

There isn't a single true thing in either sentence.

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. So Voinavich did a poor job in Cleveland and was rewarded

for his efforts by being elected Governor?

[Tinoire]

8. Don't you ever get tired of repeating that lie?

You've been corrected many times but you prefer to continue with that. And then after causing damage with your repeated falsehood, you expect people to rally around your candidate?

The laughingstock is not Kucinich.

[dpbrown]

3. This is a beautiful version of this event

Thank you for sharing this anniversary.

[JohnKleeb]

7. been about 25 years since that great stand, I didnt know that

That was a brave decision by him, hurt him and the town in the short run but in the long run he was right. Sigh if that hadnt happened, he would be Senator Kucinich for sure, and the electablity thing would be dangling over him. I cant believe people are trying to dispute what he did was right, the city council there gave him a commendition and hes well respected and admired in his town.

[helleborient]

9. Respectfully Mairead, one of my senators is Dick Durbin...

He voted against IWR

He voted against Medicare reform

He stood up to Orrin Hatch in the judiciary committee pointing out that a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints trying to say that Dick Durbin, born and raised a Roman Catholic, opposing a judge because he feared the judge would not uphold rights to abortion access was being anti-Catholic is utterly ridiculous.

My Democratic senator has toed a very liberal line on all of the most important issues since Bush took office. I have every right to complain about Tom Daschle and Diane Feinstein - it has nothing to do with Dennis Kucinich.

Also, Durbin's mentor was the honorable Senator Paul Simon, well-known for true integrity in the U.S. Senate. He has endorsed Howard Dean for President. Nothing that is said can take away from the fact that one of the most honorable recent members of the U.S. Senate, who is retired and has nothing personal to gain from an endorsement, has endorsed Howard Dean for President. This is not sell-out...this is personal conviction.

[Mairead]

10. Sorry, you're apparently missing my point.

The only one of the candidates who has put his butt on the line for the people is Dennis Kucinich, and it cost him dearly. For you not to support him means that his demonstrated integrity--his unique demostrated integrity--isn't important to you. You choose to support the silver-spoon candidate of the status quo instead. What message does that send? That's the bottom line.

[helleborient]

11. His integrity is important, but also his experience....

Dennis Kucinich is most definitely NOT the only Democrat to put his "butt" on the line...he has no monopoly there.

Howard Dean put his butt on the line supporting civil unions.

Dick Gephardt put his butt on the line standing in the rose garden with President Bush

John Kerry put his butt on the line in his vote on Iraq

Joe Lieberman puts his butt on the line everyday he directly opposes the liberal wing of the Democratic Party.

Carol Moseley Braun put her butt on the line verbally standing her ground against Jesse Helms in an elevator when she served as my senator.

Courage in politics is not unique to Dennis Kucinich...neither is integrity.

The ability to work with those who are fortunate enough to have money is not the only issue facing this nation.

Two of our greatest Presidents were born with so-called "silver spoons" in their mouths - Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and John Fitzgerald Kennedy

And Dennis Kucinich must have more actual experience in government positions, ability to convince his own colleagues he is the right candidate, and proven success marshalling through legislation to prove to me he is the best candidate.

And I personally resent suggestions I or anyone else does not have integrity simply because we do not support Dennis Kucinich. I have put my job butt on the line as a public library director in a small conservative (65% vote for Bush) town multiple times writing Letters to the Editor scathingly attacking the current administration in addition to appearing locally on a panel to speak about my own bisexuality. Do NOT attack my personal integrity because I do not support Dennis Kucinich...you do NOT live in my world.

[OhioStateProgressive]

12. until you recognize he has the experience

people will still make those inferences

[JohnKleeb]

13. I dont think hellob is being cowardly or anything

but I do wonder. People say, they are in agreement with Kucinich of all the candiates on the issues, yet they wont support him because hes "unelectable". Tell me please, I am young, I have never heard about people doing this. Sigh it saddens me, they know hes one of the best on the issues yet they wont support him because hes "unelectable", its the Kucinich thorn, people like what they hear but they wont support. I dont think people are cowardly or have less integrity because they have another candiate but I do feel very disappointed but less amount of respect in a person if they know a guy has the best views and vision yet wont support him because of something we dont know for sure. Sigh, europe and canada call, maybe I should accept the charges. We are all idealists and pragmatists, I can just admit to my idealism easier than my pragmatism. Thats the difference, some can call them self idealists and others call themselves pragmatists.

[OhioStateProgressive]

14. i didn't blame him

and i don't believe he is cowardly...but he is making false charges against Dennis

[JohnKleeb]

17. I understand

I was more so disagreeing with the way mairead went about, she's totally right though, he has been standing up for us and people want that, why not support him. Sigh sorry, things be rough for me today.

[Mairead]

47. Sorry you've got the flu, John!

As for my approach, there's a good rule that I've too often forgotten in my life, and it's cost me each time. I'm trying to forget it less often these days:

When you meet a cannibal who uses a knife and fork, the important part is that it's a cannibal

[helleborient]

22. John, for me, it's more and more experience...

As I stated above.

And the majority of Kucinich supporters I run into - you an obvious exception - do not help in the least. I feel personally bludgeoned that I am an evil person if I don't support Dennis Kucinich for President. I feel that is counter-productive to any positives in this world - counter-productive to community building, pushing a progressive agenda, or anything Dennis Kucinich supports and works for.

[Mairead]

31. Dean's experience is equivalent to Kucinich's

Cleveland and Vermont are the same size, with Vermont being less diverse.

Dean's legislative experience is equivalent to Kucinich's city council experience.

Dean's governor's experience is equivalent to Kucinich's mayoral experience.

Dean has no experience equivalent to Kucinich's as City Clerk (Sec. of State in Vt) or federal legislator.

Nor, since he is independently wealthy, was Dean ever faced with the choice of knuckling under to the wealthy elites or losing his very livelihood.

[helleborient]

32. Live in the dream of 12 years and 5 re-elections being the same as 2

years and a failed re-election.

Good luck on the campaign trail!

[Mairead]

37. And the only reason Dennis wasn't re-elected was that he didn't sell out

What if we had a full record of everything Dean did in office? How many times would we see him selling out to the energy interests, to IBM, to other elites? Do you think they gave him money out of gratitude for his opposition to them? I doubt it.

[helleborient]

19. That's fine..but this is exactly why a number of liberals do not support..

Dennis Kucinich.

Or Ralph Nader.

My personal beliefs are similar to both of them in many areas.

However, I learned long ago, building coalitions to improve the world does involve respecting the opinions of others and the life experience of others...it doesn't involve setting a statement that others must give allegiance to in order to work together.

I resent the anger expressed by Ralph Nader toward anyone who disagrees...or anyone who did not support him when he ran for President in 2000.

I resent the insinuations of no integrity by Dennis Kucinich supporters as well.

I have said before...I do not want to live in an America where everyone is forced to fall in lock-step because someone has determined this is the exact correct answer...and no questions should be asked. That is exactly how most Kucinich supporters here sound to me, with a few notable exceptions.

I have personal integrity...and I have plenty of people in my life to back that up. I was attempting to point out possible reasons why Kucinich is not doing any better in polls than he is. If you don't want to listen, that is fine.

If you want to shit on my personal experience...that's fine, too. I won't rise to the bait...I have more integrity than to attack your personal life and sling personal accusations about integrity.

[OhioStateProgressive]

21. no, i won't shit on you

but i get upset when you shit on Kucinich supporters

I get upset when you constantly repeat the "not enough experience" charge


If I appeal to you, to stop shitting on me, how would you respond?

[helleborient]

24. Mairead attacked the integrity of anyone who doesn't support Kucinich...

She restated it after my first complaint.

I don't understand how my concern about lack of experience is a false charge...explain to me why that experience qualifies him. Don't give me more that if I had integrity I would vote for him.

[OhioStateProgressive]

26. i have before

Dennis was Mayor of 600,000+ people

Dean was Governor of 600,000+ people

what legislative experience does howard Dean have?, that put him in direct touch with people?

Dennis was city councilman, State Senator, and Congressman

I say that is qualified

I never said Dean wasn't qualified, but to me, it seems pretty equal...any balance change you can claim because of the mayor/governor thing, surely is counteracted by the legislative experiences of Dennis

[helleborient]

29. Kucinich was mayor for 2 years - Dean for 12

Dean won re-election to his administrative position 5 times.

Dennis has won re-election to a legislative position 3 times.

It doesn't matter...I'll go on elsewhere.

[dpbrown]

33. Kucinich beat 3 incumbent Republicans - Dean none

Every position Kucinich ever held is now held by a Democrat.

No position Dean ever held is held by a Democrat.

Kucinich took on, and beat, the Enron of his day (CEI/FirstEnergy).

Dean took the conservative way out when forced to choose by the Vermont Supreme Court.

Kucinich represents about 600,000.

Dean represented about 600,000.

Kucinich's re-elect numbers have risen.

Dean fell from 74% in 1992 to 54% in 1998 to 50.4% in 2000 before quitting to "run for President."

The comparisons don't favor Dean in this game.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Mairead]

38. Don't forget Kucinich was also elected City Clerk

A functional-management role equivalent to Secretary of State in Vermont.

Kucinich has legislative experience at 3 levels, plus technical management, plus executive experience. AND his integrity was proven at a level that Dean cannot begin to come close to matching.

[Mairead]

20. You're still not getting it

Dennis Kucinich put his butt on the line standing up for the people against the wealthy elites, not the other way around. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? You continue to miss it.

All the examples you give are of politicians standing up against something other than the wealthy elites: Dean against the loonies, Gephardt, Kerry, and Lieberman against the people, and CMB against a peer.

In no case did any of them put their very livelihood on the line for the people. Only Kucinich has done that.

[helleborient]

25. Wealthy elites are NOT the only issue in this campaign...

And money is NOT the only thing I base my personal integrity or the integrity of others on.

And, I'm sorry, but your final line..."In no case did any of them put their very livelihood on the line for the people" is unadulterated bullshit.

No chance for a vote for Kucinich here in this round. I really don't want to be identified with people who believe the way to gain votes is to insult personal integrity.

[Mairead]

28. Oh really?

"In no case did any of them put their very livelihood on the line for the people" is unadulterated bullshit.

No, it's not. It's the simple truth. If it weren't, you'd have provided a countervailing example.

[helleborient]

30. Howard Dean supporting civil unions put his position as Governor on the

line in the State of Vermont.

This is so stupid to argue against someone who elevates their candidate to God-like status.

I don't have a God in politics...so ok, you win.

No vote from me, intensified work for my candidate..but you win the bludgeoned argument.

Congrats! What is your prize?

[Mairead]

34. Why is it so hard for you? Is it because you know you're wrong

but can't bear to admit it?

Dean's meagre support for civil unions put him in opposition only to the loonies. All he had at risk was the governorship that he was gradually losing anyway, judging by the trend of his re-election numbers.

[helleborient]

36. I like Dennis Kucinich a lot...

But his supporters have succeeded in driving me even further away from his candidacy.

I can only say whether I am right or wrong for myself.

I am right for myself.

[Mairead]

39. Sure.

Whatever lets you sleep at night.

The bottom line is that a vote for any other candidate is an admission that put-the-People-first integrity isn't important and doesn't buy anything from a certain group of people.

It's a message that's not lost on the Daschles and Feinsteins, believe me.

[helleborient]

40. Feinstein endorsed Kerry....Paul Simon endorsed Howard Dean

'Nuff said.

[Mairead]

42. And how many endorsements from the Granny Ds and Ben Cohens has Dean got?

[helleborient]

48. Paul Newman, a key financial contributor to work on corporate

Responsibility, as well as setting an example himself with "Newman's Own" is easily a match for an endorsement by Ben Cohen in my book. Paul Newman's products are much healthier than Ben&Jerry's by the way.

Take a look at this Nov. 2003 article from Time Magazine..

http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1101031110-536354,00.html

"Newman's Own is now a major brand in supermarkets, with sales exceeding $100 million annually and profits of more than $12 million. Since its start in 1982, Newman's Own has given all its profits—more than $137 million—to charity and established the Hole in the Wall Gang camps for kids with serious diseases. But its humble beginnings offer lessons for any entrepreneur. Like many rookie proprietors, actor Paul Newman and his sidekick, the writer A.E. Hotchner, had a good product (the actor's homemade salad dressing) but lacked the experience to launch it in the hotly contested world of packaged goods. In this excerpt from the forthcoming "Shameless Exploitation in Pursuit of the Common Good" (Nan A. Talese/Doubleday; $22.95), the two recount their experiences in trying to get a business off the ground."

[dpbrown]

35. Dean was forced to choose "marriage" or "union"

And he took the conservative route, saying at the time that homosexuals make him "uncomfortable, like everyone else."

Kucinich favors a federal law on this issue, and as such is demonstrably better than Dean on gay civil unions/marriage.

It has nothing to do with hero-worship - it's just looking at the record.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[DuctapeFatwa]

23. Politics is not about integrity, principles, issues or even policies

There have been numerous threads on this subject, and I admire the candor of those who freely admit that their priority is to put a Democratic face on the PNAC strategies.

Politics is about money, and Dennis Kucinich does not have any, and there are indications that there are limits to how low he would stoop to get some.

That makes him a lousy politician.

In addition, he has given neither strategists nor corporations any reason to believe that he will work to put their interests over those of people who have even less money than he does, and he is on record as having said publicly that lives are more important than money.

People have been seized and disappeared for less.

[Mairead]

41. "People have been seized and disappeared for less."

And what a frightening thought that is at this point in US history.

[Dhalgren]

15. I agree with you 1000%!

We get the leaders we deserve. If you want integrety, honesty, truth, and a backbone in your elected officials - hey - you have to vote for the person who has those qualities. Kucinich is the only person running, who has consistently fought for the common citizen, who has stood up to the fat cats and the wealth-elite. Now if no one supports him, then we deserve what we get - a long line of spinless, big business, lickspitals who are only good for steppin' and fetchin' for the boss.

[LuminousX]

16. I love being yelled at by the self-righteous

[OhioStateProgressive]

18. I just love being right(nt)

[helleborient]

27. Yep, you get it...

That was my point.

Back to making my plans for work in Iowa...and helping a local supporter on the plans for a letter writing party later this month in support of Dean.

[redqueen]

49. Common sense, just like DK :-D

"You think the Daschles and the Feinsteins don't know how spineless you are? Guess again."

ZING!

Ain't it the truth?

This is the WHOLE reason the party keeps moving right! They know they can get away with it!

HAHAHAH -- can't wait to use that -- stop trashing Miller, Feinstein, Lieberman, et al... you're causing it!

LOVE IT!!!!!!!!

[goodhue]

50. bravo!!! (n/t)