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papau (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-01-04 01:55 PM Original message |
mainstream news still pretends they found errors in F911 - why? |
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 01:56 PM by papau
mainstream news still pretends they found errors in F911 - why?
Newsweek's Michael Isikoff and Wash Post's Richard Cohen pre July 4 comments were in error - but mainstream news still pretends they found errors in F911 - why? http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=16 Factual Back-Up For Fahrenheit 9/11: Section One THE FOLLOWING IS THE LINE BY LINE FACTUAL BACKUP FOR 'FAHRENHEIT 9/11' Section One covers the facts in Fahrenheit 9/11 from the 2000 election to George W. Bush's extended visit to Booker Elementary on the morning of September 11th. Factual Back-Up for Fahrenheit 9/11: Section Two Section Two covers the facts in Fahrenheit 9/11 from Bush's failure to meet with Richard Clarke, to the August 6th memo, and ends with the Saudi flights out of the US after 9/11. http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=17 Factual Back-Up for Fahrenheit 9/11: Section Three Section Three covers the facts in Fahrenheit 9/11 from Osama's relations with his family through Bush's military records and ends with Bush's business history, including Arbusto, Harken and the Carlyle Group. http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=18 Factual Back-Up for Fahrenheit 9/11: Section Four Section Four covers the facts in Fahrenheit 9/11 regarding the Carlyle Group and Saudi money in the United States and its connection to the Bush family, their friends and associates http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=19 Factual Back-Up for Fahrenheit 9/11: SectionFive Section Five covers the facts in Fahrenheit 9/11 from Saudi Arabia's involvement in 9/11 through the natural gas pipeline in Afghanistan. http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=20 Factual Back-Up for Fahrenheit 9/11: Section Six Section Six covers the facts in Fahrenheit 9/11 from the Patriot Act through the war in Iraq. http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=21 |
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damntexdem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-01-04 02:28 PM Response to Original message |
1. Well, since they can't admit that it's correct ... |
then it simply MUST be wrong.
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Voltaire99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-01-04 05:20 PM Response to Original message |
2. Payback, of sorts; lots of reasons, actually |
Moore has long made the press look silly, and that is something our prima donnas of the Fourth Estate can never forgive.
There is also Moore's immense talent and success, which cause envy and resentment--particularly given his celebrated blue collar roots. There is the sense, too, however false, that this is the hour of conservatism's complete ascendance, and certain of the press are eager to prove themselves useful to power. And there is, finally, reflexively, the media's need to protect its credibility. The press is a machine for mediating reality. Its illusions depend upon consensus. If it is upstaged, or shown to have failed, then it will act to protect its turf (and profits) by destroying critics. |
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Festivito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-01-04 09:45 PM Response to Original message |
3. Partly because the fifty-nine deceits paper was not itself rebutted. |
My family ambushed me with the fifty-nine items while I had no Internet access. I later made this rebuttal at which point I was told that “we started it all” and when the relative could not recall what it was ‘we started’ I was pushed to the door, my ability to follow my religion was denigrated, and the door was then shut in my face.
This paper is found on the Internet. Some of the points are clearly misleading. Others would take many man-hours to resolve. Mr. Kopel added more details on his website. Mr. Moore details each line of his documentary with links to major news sources for the items in his movie. I tried to read all three and put them together, but realizing Mr. Kopel’s attempts at describing deceits seemed themselves deceitful, I finished just adding my own comments. I’ve tried to embolden all my comments. The original article I left unbolded. Enjoy!Sorry this took so long, it’s, well, long.The rebuttal information and links resides at: http://www.michaelmoore.com/ http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11By Dave Kopel Independence Institute If all you know is what the mainstream media tell you, then you are living in a world of illusions. But you can’t free your mind if you merely replace one set of manipulative illusions with another set of manipulative illusions. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a twisted, dishonest, paranoid, and hateful fantasy. Learn the facts, and make up your own mind. The list below is a summary of a much longer report, which is available for free at www.davekopel.org. The report also discusses many other issues about the movie. There are lots of good reasons why people have chosen to vote against (or for) the re-election of George Bush. And there are lots of good reasons why patriotic Americans have decided to oppose (or support) the war in Iraq. One thing that all the good reasons have in common is that they are based on facts. In a democracy, we should try to convince our fellow citizens with facts and logical reasoning. To manipulate people with frauds and propaganda is to attack democracy itself.
1. A "victory" rally before an election happens as much as introducing the "next president" of the U.S. – who cares? And, it is not misleading to indicate that Gore had been declared the victor. 2. Mm said FOX was first to call Bush the winner, not that FOX retracted "the mistake" first. Clever with an eye-roll. Mm discusses "disputed votes," Mr. Kopel discusses votes under Gore’s lawsuit’s terms. Gore agreed to a statewide recount but not in HIS lawsuit. Republicans challenged Gore to recount the entire state and Gore agreed. Republicans then fought the statewide recount in THEIR lawsuits. Craftily worded point Mr. Kopel makes here. Deeper: FL law requires that recount lawsuits engage each county separately. Gore’s lawsuits mentioned counting under-votes and alone would not have put him over Bush. Properly counting over-votes statewide would have put Gore over. (Over-vote example: Punch Bush’s chad AND ALSO write Bush’s name on ballot. The ballot rejects and is not mechanically counted. It must be hand counted. Clearly intended as a vote for Bush, FL law says that if intent can be determined the vote should be counted, here as a vote for Bush.) (Under-vote can be someone who chooses not to vote or does intend to vote as in this example: Involves a single chad that is not fully punched, thus not mechanically read. The chad may hinge shut, may be mostly disconnected, may be partially disconnected but popped back into its hole, may be indented from a hard push with stylus, or may be slightly indented by a soft push. It can still be clear which candidate the voter intended.) Republicans contended that a soft push should not be counted since the person may have decided to vote for no one and thus retracted the stylus meaning the intent could not be determined and therefore deciding between soft pushes and hard pushes was subjective guessing such that none of the votes should be recounted. Republicans also accused Gore of "cherry picking" counties and the recount should be statewide then fought the statewide recount to SCOTUS that allowed it, but only gave from 11pm to midnight to count the six-million votes. Gore would have lost the election if in his county by county lawsuits only under-votes were counted and over-votes were not. Many articles at the time used this crafty wording that avoided mentioning over-votes. The whole-state lawsuit is NOT Gore’s lawsuit per se – so Mr. Kopel’s statement is craftily correct except that on mm’s website mm says "disputed votes," not votes only under Gore’s lawsuit terms. Bully for the Palm Beach Post. 2004’s election finds the same updated list disqualifying thousands of Democratic-voting blacks and less than ten, I think the number I heard was seven, Republican-voting Hispanics. Perhaps the Palm Beach Post will make another statement. None of this means MM movie is wrong.Prior to 9/11 Bush’s poll numbers were descending in a near straight line. Some might call it pseudo-serious, some might call it very serious, some might call it serious. MM said Bush was beginning to look like a lame duck president, not that a commentator said it. And, anyway, MM is a commentator himself.He took a month vacation, the largest ever, after reading what he thought a historical document stating "Osama binladen determined to attack inside United States." Yes, he took off weekends also. Yes, he met with people while in vacation locations. Can you make a better guess of the percentage? What? 40% 41%?Of course not. When the US was under attack he read about the goat.It is even sadder to say he did read it, and then vacationed for a month.No, he thought it historical, in a vague sort of way. "Osama Binladen determined to strike inside U.S."Bush stopped FBI speaking directly with CIA as it had under Clinton who stopped five attacks. Bush attended a European conference staying aboard and aircraft carrier since warnings indicated planes could attack the sleeping quarters. National Security Advisor Condi Rice forgot any notion about hijacked planes attacking by the time August rolled into September despite being National Security Advisor.Proven wrong. They left during the ban.Okay, I don’t know. It was approved at "high levels" as I recall.Yea, but, what’s the mistake here.Not by the FBI. By the baggage handlers? "Did you pack your own bags?" That’s detailed.Bath did have binladen money, was an investor for other people, and invested money in Arbusto.Guess they forgot during the first release.Bush did not invent Saudi coddling? So what? Both sides coddle? Hmmm. If a Dem buys oil its coddling, if a Bush flies Saudis out of the country, and hides their names from a government report that could be coddling also. Right?And, it was okay since his dad appointed the head of the SEC, the SEC that did not investigate and explicitly did not exonerate the young Bush.Certainly no evidence when you don’t find any after you don’t look for any.A playground. I wonder how that relates to a technical term. Yes, George Soros has those investments also. Don’t people just hate it when a fellow investor blows a whistle.Good. Were they shaking in their boots? I doubt it. It was a Clinton weapon anyway. Made them feel dirty. Bush even ridiculed Clinton for trying to hit OBL by saying that he was trying to hit a camel in the butt or trying to hit an empty tent in the middle of the desert.And, what a lovely business to enter upon leaving government.Most people don’t know what a billion is. Want to make your own estimate? I don’t think so.I didn’t hear this. Can you check Moore’s site?And, the Saudis certainly get theirs. Stand in front of any other embassy and see if you get a SS visit.Oh, this is getting boring. So, the Saudis cannot dictate all our foreign policy. Do they dictate some of it? They certainly have the ear or our president.The Taliban in the film visited someone in the Bush administration while they were hosting Osama binladen. What? Not Bush, not while governor? Which? Both?Those pesky Talibaners wouldn’t budge for Clinton, would they? They did when carpet bombed out of power. And, that Unocal pipeline went in.Oh, how different, how new, how … NOT REALLY DIFFERENT.It was not Enron in the movie, it was Dick Cheney’s Halliburton. Enron needed it to connect to India as I recall and would thereby benefit even if Enron did not lift a finger to build it.It was not March? Bush gave them millions of dollars later for not growing drugs. Bush did condemn them later for not turning over OBL, just before bombing them. Imagine if we had to turn over Eric Rudolf to a European country. Oh, that’s right WE could not find HIM.He did oppose both wars. Innocent until proven guilty, what a concept. A bunch of Saudis jump into planes to terrorize US and who else would you blame than Afghanistan.And, the lovely new pipeline they now have. I personally hated the Taliban and I was even upset that Bush rewarded them with the drug prevention money. I hope the new democracy stands for a long good time.Gov. Kean, R-NJ, was hand picked by Bush people to head the so-called bi-partisan 9/11 commission. Not all the details of Bush’s reluctance were in the movie. If each part were re-arranged do you think it would be flattering to Bush?The voters voted for Mel on the preprinted labels, he was dead, and all but a few possible idiots knew it. He lost to a dead guy.But, the person who stopped the investigation in the FBI was rewarded with a bonus. The usual bonus we are told. And, the whistle blowers made the cover of Time.He was doing a one-year budget. He completely omitted the anti-terrorism request. (Under Clinton meetings occurred every workday. What budget was used then.)I didn’t see this. BTW: Porter Goss also voted against the six-billion dollars for intelligence that Kerry voted against, since the CIA was not spending it at that time.Never say never. It was not for those Israeli Americans nor for Abu Nidal that we invaded Iraq.We wanted Saddam assassinated too and asked his people to do it and then did not support the people who tried. When they rose up to oust Saddam, Saddam killed them and buried them in mass graves. Then we villainized Saddam for what Saddam says is himself protecting his country from insurgents. Actually, I think we were suppose to think that the mass graves were recent, rather than connected to Desert Storm I."…in the Arab region…"OBL hates Saddam for Saddam loves Western things OBL hates. Did Mr. Kopel read his own statement here? No connection as the 9/11 commission announced.CIA Saddam raises an ideology of hatred, and ideology that perverted Islam opening the way for OBL to order 9/11 and this is the connection between Saddam and 9/11 that killed 100,000 Iraqis. NOT!Given the chance, a lot of people would prefer the US to their own democratic countries. The kite-flying and weddings are too dangerous now. Let us hope Iraqis will be happier and won’t mind the huge cost in lives their new voting rights cost them.Military casket photo were prohibited by Bush administration. The last estimate is that 100,000 Iraquis died not counting Falujah adding another 20,000. We’ve lost 1,111 soldiers as of today.Many?It is a documentary. Are they suing? Good.The media have apologized for not being more critical in their reporting of the lead to the Iraq war.Very sensitive. I thought the torture was not an issue yet. Maybe I missed it again. I’m tired.Could be. Same area?Benefits are not usually included in a salary calculation. That would change a percentage radically.1. The benefits might make the false claims a false claim. 2. Who got the pay raise, I wonder.Two out of 535 representatives and Ashcroft’s is safe. I’d have to as if one went in recently.Has he picked up the idea and run with it? He is the one being paid.Perhaps he’d have an available nephew or cousin – for the cause.Let’s see: 2:535 as 150,000:x. x is 40 million. Hey, not bad.And, some people say they’re from Detroit even though they are from Dearborn Heights. When MM grew up, Flint was nice, I’d be sure he visited Flint often enough.MM has his own straight forward review of Iraqi insurgents. Understanding insurgents can lead to a solution. One thing certain is that they don’t hate us for our freedoms. They may not like Ba’athists any more than Republicans liked Bill Clinton, but, if Russia invaded us to remove Clinton, even Republicans would be upset.The article says: "contacted by organisations related to the Hezbollah" Reread the title again and see if it is the same as the article states. No one says he took the offered help. And, another country wanting to see a documentary unflattering to Bush is just as awful as having them read the Starr report on Monica Lewinski which Republicans would not mind.The following requires that the title I just noted is the truth, not the line within the article that I see as badly summarized.Slate.com (6/24/04) followed up on the story, and reported: "Gianluca Chacra, the managing director of Front Row Entertainment, the movie’s distributor in the United Arab Emirates, confirms that Lebanese student members of Hezbollah ‘have asked us if there’s any way they could support the film.’ Chacra was unfazed, even excited, about their offer. ‘Having the support of such an entity in Lebanon is quite significant for that market and not at all controversial. I think it’s quite natural.’" Do you think it’s patriotic to accept help from a terrorist organization which has killed and kidnapped hundreds of Americans, which works with al Qaeda and other terrorists, and which is currently aiding the killing of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians? American patriotism can include presenting honest arguments against a particular American military policy. Hateriotism is the spreading of vicious lies against American soldiers and in favor of tyrants. It’s not unpatriotic to criticize a war or particular wartime policies. But how many patriots do you know who take aid from terrorists who kill Americans? This essay comes from the Independence Institute, a thinktank in Colorado which is founded on the principles of the Declaration of Independence (www.independenceinstitute.org). The author, Dave Kopel, is a life-long Democrat who endorsed and voted for Ralph Nader in 2000. He supports some but not all aspects of the current war on terror. Permission is granted to reproduce and distribute this flyer, provided you obey each of these three requirements:
I like his ending. But, his complaints lack merit in regard to asking people not to see the movie. |
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