How to debate ex-liberals

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

I'm curious as to what's the best strategy to use against arguments like "if not a liberal at 20 there's no heart, if not a conservative at 40 there's no brain." Basically anyone who justifies a rightward shift based on simplistic "real world" or "maturity" rhetoric.

Seems to me that this approach by the right is used to evade serious debate on the issues, and progressives are equally guilty for allowing this notion to go unchallenged.

[msongs]

1. that's from before conservative = flaming racist fascist nt

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

2. How do you challenge a homily?

:shrug:

[Jim__]

3. I agree with you that it's an evasion.

Whenever a debating opponent tries an evasion, simply point it out and ask for specifics. Be prepared to respond to a short list of "specifics" that may be given but that don't make the case.

[NJmaverick]

4. maturity and real world are false talking points

the former liberals turned conservatives are actually far more consistent then one might think. For them it was and always will be about self interest. When they were young and had little they liked the liberal ideals of sharing the wealth, when they were in school they liked strong educational policies and so on. You get my drift, they liked the things that favored their own self interests. Now that they are older and have presumably acquired more material wealth they are all about screwing over their younger selves in favor of greed and keeping as much stuff as possible.

[RKP5637]

8. All stepping stones in a greedy failed capitalistic system devouring itself based

on selfishness. It breeds sociopathic personalities IMO.

[RKP5637]

5. In a fascist oligarchy this is not surprising IMO, "a rightward shift based on simplistic

"real world" or "maturity" rhetoric." And it's pathetic. It's not surprising to see some of the lemmings feel they are part of the oligarchy. The propaganda is alive and working well.

[RandomThoughts]

6. That is the arguement of what is mature.

Growth in heart or growth in mind.

It also has a spiritual element, if you grow to realism and the thoughts of some dark side needed, then you grow away from the beliefs that there are forces that can help a person.

"Luck will sometimes save a man if his courage holds." Although I don't think of such a thing as luck.


What is courage, unrealistic thought, going up against the odds, stacked against you when it seems you aren't going to make it through. That is not realistic, realism is cutting a deal and giving up. And a deal such as that is a deal of what you accept in your heart as real, not some compromise on politics or economics. A compromise in politics can be part of courage and not giving up, while a thought of powerlessness and despair, is a spiritual deal to be avoided.


So in some things realism is accepting what is wrong, and not believing you can change it even if it seems you may be against the odds.

realism is often despair or fear, having to accept a world that is not in the shape you believe it can be.

The idealism of liberalism of finding a way to make things better, even when some realism tries to tell you that you have no power, no path, or no way to make a change, that is much of those ideas.

I think you push on, and find a way. Courage, long shot, perseverance even with some hardship and risk, I think that is what it is to be mature. Although a person can just go along to get along. It is a personal choice, not a thing about how the world is or isn't.


Side note: Courage has no moral component, it is possible to be courageous and wrong. However the courageously wrong is shown how wrong they are by being bold. So also learning from other people is important.

If everyone is Courageous, it is far easier to learn what is best in society, since then people are honest in their thoughts, speech and actions. And many can learn both sides of arguments and discussions.

[iamjoy]

7. They Haven't Changed

It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.

If you want an example of this, look at DADT. Seventeen years ago (ok, not quite 20) it was considered very radical, and all the Conservatives were against it. There were few people advocating for gays to serve openly. Now, DADT is the position supported by Conservatives and the idea that gays not serve at all barely gets any mention.

[PDJane]

9. Most women become more liberal as they age..........

My 84 year old mother started out voting conservative.......now, even though she likes the conservative candidate in this riding, she won't vote for him. Doesn't trust him, and says that every time the conservatives take power they ruin the economy!

[provis99]

10. you want to debate Michael Savage types? Why?

they are immune to reason.

[Trajan]

11. That adage isnt an argument - It's a lame and fallacious anecdote

What you need to do is laugh and note the absurdity of the claim ...

Not all sayings are true ....

[Warpy]

12. Just point out that a conservative said that

and that it has no basis whatsoever in fact.

[old mark]

13. First, that has no basis in truth, it really is a homily...not a fact.

Second, "debating" with a RWer is like trying to argue with a drunk - a pointless waste of time that just pisses everyone off and changes no one's mind... We won't convert them and they won't convert us.

It's OK, if you enjoy it, but don't expect much.

mark

[Per Capita]

14. It is just a saying...but since you asked...

...It was more of an observation, rather than a means of dismissing an argument, nor do I think Churchill intended it to shut down discussion. However, since you've brought this up as a means of generalizing anyone with a conservative idea in their head, I will share my thoughts. I consider myself more conservative than liberal (media definition of the word) years after my youth when I was more liberal than conservative, but I'm still somewhere in between.

When I was young, my time seemed limitless, had had less to offer the world in terms of value, and the world had more to offer me. When I grew older, I had more marketable skills gained through effort and education. Now that I pay taxes on my salary, I find that my time is evaporating with an increased sense of urgency. While I do not like paying taxes, I understand the need and so I pay the taxes. My problem is when my taxes (which would otherwise be used on improving my life, and developing my own ideas, starting a family if I meet the right girl, etc, being able to afford a child and take care of it properly), are used in a way in which I have no say. So instead of me being able to afford a better apartment (I cannot see myself being able to afford a house) or owning a car, and having more than a few grand in the bank (in other words start getting ahead and not live month to month), I watch my government engage in military adventurism, provide social assistance to those who have many children but no means to support them, provide corporate welfare on demand, pay for large government salaries (in some cases justified, others not), throw money at special interest groups on demand, and many other outlets which I will omit for the sake of keeping this readable. This is all accomplished with tax dollars, accumulated from private citizens, you and I, included.

This tax on the fruits of my labor begins to get more noticeable as I get older, and realize that I'm barely middle-class and time is running out for me to have anything of a decent life beyond working like an idiot to watch between a quarter and a half of my earnings go into someone else's pockets. I have no say where this money is going, so I am concerned that it is not being wasted when I could make better use of it.

Money is what is given to us in exchange for the time (and for the most part effort) we put into work. Life is measured in time and quality as well. When we trade our time for money it is for the understanding that the money we get back for the portion of our life that we have given over, will help improve the time we have remaining. As people get older, their time becomes more finite; is it any wonder that older people might be more sensitive about how the money they earned is used?