Query: is it possible to have a civil discussion with . . .

[Cary]

fire-eating conservatives?

I've tried everything. I've failed miserably. Does anyone have any good experience with this? Is there any point to even trying?

I know I've just answered my own question, but I'll hang up now and see if anyone has any wisdom on this.

[TXvote]

1. common ground

Keep in mind that a growing number of Repubs are ashamed by this president and tired of defending him. They are weary and lost. They are also generally very sensitive when it comes to image, so you have to appeal to their sense of dignity. Recognizing common ground helps a lot. We are all concerned with the deficit. Does your candidate offer some fiscal reform? I start a lot of cross-perty conversations with " I know you are concerned about...." and then I ask how they feel about what is going on. Embrace them and talk about restoring dignity. Every once in a while I get my head chewed off, but it is becoming more rare. I have learned to listen a lot and ask questions instead of preaching. I learned it is impossible to appear sane when I am hopping mad and nobody listens to a crazy person.

Best of Luck,
Teresa Van Deusen
www.votervirgin.com

[Cary]

2. Teresa, I tried that and they called me "needy".

Really. This is a very tough crowd. They also accuse me of condescending. They have all of these bizarre rules, and it seems to come down to some kind of inferiority complex.

Also, I am not allowed to say anything casually. I'm berated when I do, for saying something I can't support. Of course, when I try to support it I'm still told that I'm not supporting it.

These people have a lot of practice with these tricks. The funny thing is, I don't care that much. But when they do these things they get me going pretty good.

Anyone else have any experience with this? If anyone would like to go in and see what they can do with these people, I'd be glad to tell you where to meet them. I don't recommend it though. They're very mad at me at the moment. Hehe.

[drthais]

35. this is excellent advice...

I have a sister who
although not 'fire-eating'
is still a Republican
but, as this poster indicates....
she is weary and genuinly feels
'taken' by this administration
she voted for Bush thinking he was ok
and now feels 'had'
she is embarrassed
and has a lot of trouble
making her arguments
but has residual loyalty

however
she is open to listening
she says 'keep talking'
I had her pulled to the Clark front
and now we have Kerry - and she's not so convinced
but I'm working on it


there's an article somewhere I read
I'l try to find it
it is 'An Open Letter to Poor Republicans' or something

[togiak]

3. How Fire-Eating?

If they are really, really fire-eating conservatives then there may be no getting through to them. Not with facts, not with examples, not with anything.

I have the same problem. I had one say that Bush never said that Iraq had WMD. So I showed them quote after quote of Bush and his team saying that "there is no doubt" and "we know where they are" etc, etc. And they just accuse me of spewing the same hate filled liberal lies.

Sometimes you just can't win.

[Cary]

4. Welcome, Togiak. They treat you much better here.

That sounds like the same ones! Big-time fire-eaters.

I got them pretty good by threatening to sue them. It was a joke, made after they accused me of having no sense of humor. Be careful what you wish for, eh? I am a lawyer and I told them I could run up their legal fees pretty good. It really was a joke.

Sometimes you just can't win, but I'd love to send 100 of my best friends here, over there, to blow them away.

I have a little Walter Mitty complex.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cary]

24. Hoosier. There are plenty of places for the kind of debate you suggest.

This site, methinks, is an outstanding site of what it is. I also think it's necessary, give the way the fire-eaters act.

[Michael_UK]

30. I've spent some time at Free Conservatives

Hi. I've not posted before. I'm in the UK, and it's great to see so many people wanting to get Bush out. I'm a Labour Party member, and until 2000, I didn't really appreciate how important the American President was until Bush got in (Kinda stupid now I think about it. It just seemed so distant and unimportant). I now think it's absolutely crucial for the Democratic Candidate (no matter who it is) to win the election in November.

Anyway, I've spent some time at Free Conservatives, and I've tried debating there. This is a genuine post from one of the crazier conservatives. How do you argue with someone who believes this? Is he too far gone?

"- Liberals are out to destroy my country.
- Liberals have been destroying the Constitution for more than 70 years.
- Liberals cowardly refuse to fight terrorism despite the 9/11 terrorist attacks that slaughtered nearly 3,000 Americans.
- If liberals had their way, they would surrender to the terrorists.
- The campaign of hate and lies the liberals are conducting against President Bush is by far the most vicious in living memory.
- Modern American liberals are the closest kin to fascists and Nazis that this nation has ever seen.
- Liberals judge people by the color of their skins.
- Liberals force inner-city minorities to live in poverty and attend sub-standard schools that guarantee that those minorities will never get out of poverty.
- The goal of all liberal programs is to produce ever-increasing numbers of poor and ignorant people dependent on government handouts.
- Liberals are racists.
- If liberals had their way, they would tear up the Constitution, dissolve Congress, abolish the judiciary, and establish a fascist dictatorship in the U.S."

I really wish my American Cousins the best of luck in the coming campaign. Bush out!!

[Cary]

31. Welcome mh8782!

I'm honored (honoured?) to be the first one on this side of the pond to respond to your post at DU.

Sounds like you're staunchly in the ABB (Anybody But Bush) camp! Welcome to this camp, too.

Amazing, isn't it? I commend you too to the study. Togiak posted the link above.

I suspect we will all find kooks and nuts anywhere. A few seem to pop up here and there even at this wonderful venue. I think most conservatives are decent people--one apparently decent one posted on this thread. But then there are these fire-eaters.

Too far gone? Probably. When I told the good folks here that I too had ventured into enemy territory, someone had the good sense to say: "What the heck did you do that for?" Another offered me a beer to wash the sick taste out of my mouth. Yet another suggested that I should stay right here where I'm appreciated.

Here you go.:beer:

Now. Pull up a chair and talk to me some more.

[Michael_UK]

33. I enjoy venturing into enemy territory

The most enjoyable thing about it is that there are always a few who'll happily have a chat about their politics.

I don't really know enough about the candidates so I suppose that makes me an ABB. I can see the weaknesses and strengths of the candidates. I'm beginning to see a Kerry/Edwards ticket emerging, although I liked Clark on foreign policy when I listened to him. Kerry seems electable, but I don't know how Kerry's voting record will go down. (There was a piece on BBC last night about it).

Good to chat.

Mike

[Paradise]

50. Thanks for the vote of confidence and

Welcome to DU, mh8782! :hi:

[boobooday]

5. Start by asking them if they support the troops!

Then tell them about how Bush is cutting veterans' benefits, serving rotten food to our brave soldiers (via Halliburton) and breaking our contract with these young men and women by not allowing them out of the military when they have served their time.

This has worked for me. We have to take these issues back. Ask them why the widows and children of soldiers killed in combat get less than 6 grand in compensation (it's something like that, somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

Ask them why Bush is the biggest spender EVER, but spends nothing to help ordinary Americans!

Get on their issues, and make them discuss them in YOUR FRAME. Make their cognitive dissonance so GREAT that their fire-eating heads explode!!!

And if that doesn't work, just walk away, and remember that WE ARE REALLY THE MAJORITY we just aren't as obnoxious.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

Jeanette

[Cary]

6. Jeanette, are you brave enough to try this?

I agree with you 1,000%. These guys are unbelievable. They need to have their head handed to them on a platter, I think.

As I said, I'll post the URL if people are game. But don't go there alone. It's too difficult.

[togiak]

7. Funny you say that

I bring up all of those points and more. If I really burn them on something they just don't reply to the post. Most other times they just call my facts and figures "liberal lies".

Everything that is wrong in this country is Clinton's fault. Clinton caused 9-11, Clinton caused the economic collapse, Clinton gutted the intel agencies and that is why they got it wrong, and they still insist that Saddam has WMD and that Bush never said WMD was the reason for war. It's pretty incredible. You should check it out.

Cary, give me your link and I'll give you mine...lol

www.etherzone.com/forum/

These people are pretty hateful, biggoted and mean (oh and it's supposed to be a conservative christian site). So be forwarned.

[Cary]

10. Tog--I'll dive in your board if you want.

I'm going in now just to survey the scene. I think we should coordinate our stories before we dive in. If you tell the folks on my board how you came to them, I'm afraid that will not play too well. Remember, I zinged them pretty good. They've pushed my threads down, which is fine with me.

It's an interesting exercise though.

I'll get back to you and I'll give you the URL. I don't really think it's a great idea to just post it here. They do troll DU for stuff they want to ridicule.

I'll get back to you after I troll your site, and think about it for a bit.

[Cary]

11. Tog--I visited the site.

Too much there for me to assimilate in a reasonable time. Can you point me to some threads?

Here's a taste of what I'm against (it's my post in another DU thread). I don't know if I stated my case well with this, but it's a starting point.

Of course, I could be wrong. Part of being liberal, methinks, is accepting this possibility. But here's the link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=110&topic_id=928

Look for my last post. Tell me what you think.

BTW:, I'm registered as "smegma" on your forum.

[togiak]

12. I read your post

I read your post. I also have one on that topic a little way up talking about Moral Absolutism.

Go to the EtherZone site and IM me the link to your site. I'll check it out.

Reality is that we are never going to be able to convince a hard core ideologist of anything but it's fun to try. And it keeps us on our toes. I haven't done this much research in a while.

Here is a good study on the psychology of conservatism.
Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition
http://faculty-gsb.stanford.edu/Jost/_private/Political_Conservatism_as_Motivated_Social_Cognition.pdf

[Cary]

13. So true, Togiak!

It's fun but at the same time it leaves a sour aftertaste.

It's always good to have friends.

[Cary]

14. In fact, Tog, outstanding article I think.

I have only skimmed it. I'm printing it out and saving it for my train ride home!

This would be a wonderful thing to rub their noses in.

[American liberal]

44. I've run out of patience

Cary, please post the URL you've been so politely referring to. I don't have time to read through umpteen million threads. Thanks!

[Gung_Fu]

38. Perhaps you should start a gay marriage...

thread to really bake their noodles.

[pesawattahi]

36. compensation

actually sgli (soldiers group life insurance) is up to $250000 @$16.25 per month

[ihaveaquestion]

8. I had a minor success last night

at night school. One of the few successes I've had.

My class is made up of white males, mostly conservative, and me, a liberal white female. We usually have short civil agree-to-disagree exchanges atn that's that. Last night was different and I think I made small progress in getting them to think a bit differently.

The topic was a current local issue of whether the public school system should ban displaying the Confederate flag.

Our instructor sarcastically said he wanted to tatoo the flag on himself just to show how ridiculous he thinks it is that anyone should be offended by it. All others agreed and started to make fun of the issue, etc. I pointed out that some people are not just offended by the flag, but are genuinly afraid of people who wear/display it - that it has a violent history. They seemed shocked by this, but it got them thinking a bit.

The lessons I learned from this was (1) make a response to an issue very specific, avoid generalities, and (2) bring up the fear associated with the issue. Conservatives understand fear, I guess because they are afraid of lots of things. I think they're afraid of liberals most of all.

[Cary]

9. Thanks, SM Joyner

Fear, absolutely. That's got to be at the root of their extremely aggressive behavior.

Dumbing it down and staying focused, that's a good idea too.

Somewhere on DU I posted a particularly telling post I got on the Head Butters' (that's what they call themselves) board. I'll look to see where I put it, and then I'll re-post it here to see what you all think. It's an interesting rant about how I'm a wimp, and how these people are on some kind of ideological crusade.

I've tried to tell them that I don't take it all as seriously as they do. In fact, I don't take myself as seriously as they take themselves.

[interceptor]

20. It goes both ways

If you approach it from the standpoint of "they're stupid and I've got to dumb it down" then you'll just be insulting them. People smell that. That's the biggest problem with everybody on both sides today...can't help but talk down to people. If it were really, really that straightforward the country wouldn't be so evenly divided.

You get more flies with honey than vinegar. Respect their opinions, get them to respect yours, then you might get somewhere. We can believe they're wrong just as much as they believe we are, but conservatives are doctors, lawyers, engineers and professors just like us. If they're in a class with you for the same reason, they're probably on your level.

That being said, there's some people who won't be convinced of a single thing in your lifetime. And that's on both sides. Pick battles you can win. Don't waste time spouting arguments with a hard right wing idealogue...I mean, why bother? Its as pointless as the freepers who come over here.

[belle]

21. What I liked about #8's example...

To me, that story wasn't about "dumbing down;" it was about making it personal, and real. THAT often works. And especially, something interesting; it sounds like they were seeing themselves as the victims--like people look down on and sneer at southerners, or something. They felt threatened, in other words. It sounds like in this case, gently reminding them that "actually, people who object to your flag are more afraid of you than you of them" got through to them.

I imagine this approach doesn't work with die-hard freeper types; but then, very little short of a sixteen ton weight *would* make an impact, I don't think. But assuming that you're dealing with more or less psychologically normal people--which I maintain far more people are than not, wacky politics or not--it is often possible, even more likely, to reach them by simply being human, and real.

The other thing is: as much as i like the discussion boards, in general I think you're a lot more likely to actually reach someone, much less get them to consider new ideas, if you deal with them in person.

[Ottmar]

15. I don't know

About a year ago I had an account at freerepublic.com. After my first post -- I only asked some questions that were discussed in Germany -- my account was blocked. I asked the admin why but got no response until today :shrug:

[Cary]

16. Ottmar

Could you please elaborate?

[Ottmar]

17. I had to search ...

but here are the questions I posted at freerepublic:

1. If the US government has proofs for WMDs in Iraq, why didn't they give them to the UN inspectors from beginning?
2. If the Iraq has biological and chemical weapons, how can be prevented that these weapons fall in the hands of Bin Laden during the war?
3. I heard that Hussein has a private fortune of 3 billion dollars. How can be prevented that parts of this fortune flow to the terrorists?
4. Unlike in the war of 91, the iraqi army will pull back in the cities. The battle of Bagdad could be a second Stalingrad. Is this battle worth only to get a 65 year old man, who will die in a few years?
5. How can a civil war in Iraq be prevented and a democratic regime be installed, if the only thing that could unite the iraqi people is anti-americanism and anti-semitism?
6. How can be prevented, that Israel comes under attack and what will happen after an israeli retaliation?

I got two replies by a forum user:
"The way to prevent all those worst case scenarios from happening is regime change in Iraq. Why don't you give me an example of how socialism and statism have worked?"

and

"Congratulations for expousing the Schroder line of propaganda."

[Cary]

18. So did they tell you why they banned you?

[Ottmar]

19. No

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

23. I have some fire-eating dittohead friends in real life (m)

and there is almost no convincing them.

Once we were talking about Sept. 11 and Iraq and one of them said, with a TOTALLY straight face, "I'm glad we invaded Iraq. It was revenge for Sept. 11. It was getting even."

After I got my jaw off the floor, I explained there was NEVER any connection between Iraq and Sept. 11 and she said: "I don't care. It still MADE ME FEEL BETTER."

Me: "Killing thousands of innocent civilians made you FEEL BETTER?"

She said yes, thousands of ours were killed.

And I fairly screamed: "BUT NOT BY IRAQ!!"

And several others there concurred that they didn't care, that it made them feel better, anyway.

I was slack-jawed for a few seconds, then I told them I thought that was one of the SICKEST, most hateful, most VILE things I had ever heard in my life. I then asked them if they knew about the accidental bombing of that maternity hospital in Baghdad.

They started backing up at that point, re-wording what they had said to make it more palatable, but I left. I was so disgusted, I didn't know what to say.

[Cary]

25. Moonbeam, I'm sorry.

There is much wisdom to the notion of avoiding religion and politics.

These people were your friends, so you must know the good part of them. I understand and appreciate your disgust. Do you still consider them to be friends?

It's a tough one.

[zwan75]

26. Talking to a conservative

Being conservative i like talking. i just understand i'm not going to change peoples mind most of the time. I think you just have to go in remebering that. Most issues you will agree to disagree, but i still like to debate about it. I think sometimes we get way to personal about things and it becomes nasty. I read your site more than freerebulic, because i find it more interesting. I know i won't change hardly anyones mind in here, but i like talking about idea, which is what we should do and not hate each other.

[Cary]

27. Interesting Zwan

I understand that liberals, being human, can get way too personal too. I have no desire to get too personal here with you, either. In fact I agree with you. So let's discuss this issue and agree not to hate each other.

Politics are inane. Hating each other over one's political point of view is inane. So please understand that I'm talking about an idea here. I might be wrong. If I am, convince me.

First though, what's this idea about changing anyone's mind? What's this about? I don't approach conservatives with the idea that I'm going to change their minds. I approach them with the idea that we're going to exchange points of view. If the conservative changes his or her mind, fine. If I've just given them something to consider, well, that's even better as far as I'm concerned.

I think it's great you come over here to think about what we're saying, BTW.

Why would you want to change my mind? Why would you care? I'm having a lot of trouble with that concept generally.

Now, I look at some of these right wing radio talk show hosts. They bombastically spout off about their ideological superiority. I don't see this coming from the left in quite the same way, and I don't see the left coallescing around anyone quite like right wingers coallesce around Rush Limbaugh.

Remove the right wingers from Rush, put them into a forum, and they are every bit as bombastic and proselytizing as Rush--perhaps more so.

It's extremely disconcerting to have a dialogue with these "fire-eaters", as I've referred to them. Perhaps, Zwan, you're not a "fire-eater"? Again, I'm struggling with this whole thing.

Maybe you, or someone else, can help me out?

[ngGale]

28. There is no common ground with a real neo-con even...

after I asked him did he not know why his health care was dropped and that it was a direct hit from the government. And what about Halliburton? He said 'what about Halliburton, they employ people.'
I gave up. You can put FOIA documents in their hands and they say, 'you made this up.' And let's not forget 'I hate Liberals.'Sad!

[Cary]

29. Well there you go, ngGale. Exactly.

How did the "I hate liberals" get in there? And you're absolutely right about the "you made this up".

It is sad.

I see stuff from the left but the best I can discern here is that the stuff from the left is a natural response to the stuff from the right. It's hard not to respond to "I hate liberals" with something similar about conservatives. When conservatives do this, and when they act like Rush Limbaugh, there's not a whole lot to like.

But two wrongs don't make a right and I like to think we liberals are better than those conservatives (although it's hard as hell to be better}( ).

Go back and check out Togiak's link. That study is very interesting, methinks. It suggests that we liberals can handle ambiguities and subtleties, and that conservatives can't.

What do you think?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

37. And Cary makes line #7

See sig.

[Cary]

41. I'm honored!!!!

Thanks JCCyC.

[amber dog democrat]

32. Not unless you stay out out the minefields

I can talk to almost anyone, but not about everything.
If we stay with shoes & ships & sealing wax & cabbages & kings or the etimology of pismire, its OK.
Just not the verbotten topics.

[auburngrad82]

34. Arguing with a conservative is like...

I belong to a Yahoo group that has about 500 anti bush members (Democrats, Republicans, Independents) and about 2 conservatives. Until a few days ago we wasted a lot of time trying to get them to do anything other than call us "morons, jackasses, baby killers, libs" etc.

We never got them to reply to a single subject with anything except insults. Not one fact, not one talking point. Just insults. So for the last few days we have just begun to completely ignore them. Their posts have dropped dramatically since they don't seem to be getting a rise out of us any more.

My point is, why bother trying to talk to conservatives? You're better off going out and talking to friends, co-workers, neighbors- people that you actually have a chance of bringing over to your side or at least of getting them to listen to your viewpoint with a somewhat objective mind.

The goal is to get more votes than the other side. If you can't convince the conservative that we are right and they are wrong then you need to just write it off and move along to the next person.

[Gung_Fu]

39. I have never had success with fire-eating...

conservatives, primarily due to the fact that they just deny everything I say as lies. Even when I would state plain old facts they would not listen, all they would do is cuss or insult me. Some have tried to argue but most of their arguments were inaccurate and jaded. Not to mention I've been banned from a few conservative websites\forums for just pointing out facts.

[ThePittsburghKid]

40. I've tried to have a civil conversation with fire-eaters

but I often find its not worth the effort. No matter how open-minded I try to be or how civil I try to keep the discussion, it always ends the same way: I'm branded a commie or a socialist, and I leave with a migraine.

I enjoy debate. I don't necessarily go out to change minds; I enjoy the open exchange of ideas. With the fire-breathing conservative, I don't think an open exchange is possible.

[American liberal]

43. yeah, why are we now branded socialists?

that's why I infiltrated a RW message board recently, to try to figure out why people who do not subscribe to their idealogy (if you can call it that) are all socialists: liberal's not a good enough label anymore? now we're all socialists? the socialist media, etc. what's up with that?

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BEZARK]

45. Ignorant, arrogant, ill-humored, semiliterate, sanctimonious

. . . and irrational, not to mention often racist and hate-filled, is what I find in many (most?) conservatives on the national news-media discussion boards--with some notable exceptions who are instead clever and sage--though still evil--and additionally with good senses of humor and lack of sanctimony. I find with the former lesser conservatives that no rational discussion is possible: they can't read properly or infer with reason from what you write (I blame homeschooling) and instead simply make up or delude what you said and then some crazed conclusion it supposedly leads to. There, I find that posting strong statements of opinion or conclusion--usually highly derogatory to them--is the more satisfying way.

[LDS Jock]

46. only if you can find

one that will actually listen and stay on one topic at a time to discuss intelligently. So, the answer is no. They don't want to know the other side of an issue. YOu only get the chance to talk when they need to take a breath.

[BEZARK]

47. I Make It Impossible For Them To Have One With Me

Offense is always the better option.

[WoodrowFan]

48. No

You can't have a conservation with a fire-eater from either the left or the right unless you agree with them.

[ylikone]

49. Study up on your bible theology and teachings of Christ

Throw Christ's teaching back in their face.... that usually makes them stumble a bit anyway. I is truly amazing how many right-wing nuts are also fundamentalist Christians (well, the "western" version of Christianity anyway), but yet they seem to conveniently ignore the teachings of their own Christ. It's really pathetic actually.

[Cary]

51. It is truly amazing, isn't it? Why do you suppose this is?

Look above at Togiak's link to the article about conservatives. Fundamentalism is about as inflexible as it gets. It gives them all the answers and they don't have to deal much with nuances and ambiguity.

Maybe it's not so amazing after all?

[LeftCoast]

52. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[MonicaR]

53. Here's a handy website to get you started...

on the fine art of smacking Reichers with the Bible.


www.webpan.com/dsinclair/might.html