Christians: Has Bush committed blasphemy?

[Direckshun]

QUESTION:
Mr President, when you talk about peace in the Middle East, you have often said that freedom is granted by the Almighty. Some people who share your beliefs don't believe that Muslims worship the same Almighty. I wondered about your views on that. And Mr Prime Minister, as a man also of faith, I would like to get your reaction to that.

PRESIDENT BUSH:

I do say that freedom is the Almighty's gift to every person, I also condition it by saying freedom is not America's gift to the world, it is much greater than that of course, and I believe we worship the same God.

Bush has stated that the God of Islam and of Christianity are the same God.

I am a Christian, and as if Bush hasn't already publicly ashamed my faith thus far (death penalty, judging others as "evil"), the above quote almost seals it.

Bush has taken a Unitarian stance that shouldn't be called Christian unless one excused hyper-liberal Christianity as an acceptable form of faith (which I don't, and I doubt you would, too).

Just looking for your thoughts, guys. Help me sort this out in my head.

[buddy22600]

1. how can he blaspheme himself

you forget he is god

[kiahzero]

2. Um. No.

Just about every serious theologian considers all three of the Abrahamic faiths to be worshiping the same God: Jehovah / Elohim. It is not "blasphemy" to state that.

The devil is in the details: Did Jehovah / Elohim have a son? Are there gods other than Jehovah / Elohim?

[Cyrano]

3. What the hell

As a very orthodox agnostic, I get extremely upset (and then pissed) whenever some politician invokes God. Organized religion has caused more deaths in the history of mankind (the crusades, the inquisition, countless pogroms, the Holocaust, Bosnian ethnic cleansing, etc) than the black death, Aids and every other natural catastrophe that has decimated humankind. The founders of this country were brilliant enough to leave any supernatural references out of the constitution. The amendment needed now is one that states that any politician that claims to rule in His/Her/Its name, should be declared immediately unfit for public service and be sentenced to serve six months of community service, preferably in a straight jacket. (No offense meant to truly spiritual people. This is aimed at bible-beating, self righteous hypocrites.)

[arcane1]

4. yes, he blasphemed, but not why you think...

it was this: "I do say that freedom is the Almighty's gift to every person"

some choice NT passages:


Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;

Colossians 3:22
Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

1 Timothy 6:1
All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against

[Tigermoose]

7. Insights into these passages...

Paul is often hard to understand for those who are not practicing and devout Christians. His points open up as you develop a personal relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit.


Paul is saying here that we should not make politics or any other worldly affair to dominate over our following of Jesus. Since Christ's commandment is to love our neighbor, than when we fight political and worldly battles we run the risk of allowing these worldly concerns to become the focus of our life rather than loving God and loving our neighbors. This is why Martin Luther King was so wonderful, because he managed to yoke the fight for freedom under Christian protest that still placed Christian faith at the forefront of the issue.

I notice that you did not quote Philemon, where Paul advices a Christian slave owner to free his escaped slave because they are both equal in God's eye and as Christians. Its a very short book in the New Testament..you should go read it.

[arcane1]

8. Paul is saying

that slaves should obey their masters the way the masters obey God. You have do to quite a bit of interpreting to see otherwise. I fail to see your explaination in those passages.

I take the bible literally, in the sense that it means what it says, no convoluted deciphering needed.

I also did not include the OT passages, that condone slavery, including sex slavery.

on edit, a few more from the NT:




1 Timothy 6:2
Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.



Titus 2:9
Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,

1 Peter 2:18
Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.

Colossians 4:1
Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven.

(so he does advocate treating slaves kindly, but why not say "Masters, set all your slaves free!!"?)

individual freedom is NOT biblical

[Tigermoose]

9. I explained "why" he said it.

It is a hard thing for modern Americans (we tend to idolize "freedom") to understand. For a Christian, this life comes second to the afterlife, so we should submit to wordly masters (as we submit to government) because if we fight we risk living in hate rather than love.

The Bible should be interpreted through the Love that Christ commanded. You will always have an interprative filter when you read the Bible and/or anything. Jesus's filter is Love :) If you read the Bible for "rules" and "laws" then you are doing what Jesus warned about with his examples of the Pharisees and Scribes, and you are not understanding the Gospels core message of Love through Christ. He is the Word. That is, he is the Way of Understanding...and that Way is Love. So when you say, I take the Bible "literally," you have to understand that that just means you probably don't see your own "filters" that you are placing on the Word. Seing as we're on a political website, I'd guess (perhaps wrongly!) that a lot of your Literal readings of the Bible tend to be filtered through your political views. So which is your master? Christ's Love or the Democratic Party? Which is your "worldview filter"? So you can see my point about rather submitting to an earthly master and focusing on Christ? If we reinterpreted this to today, we would say something about not getting over-involved in politics because it can ruin your ability to Love your neighbors...and not just those affiliated with your chosen political party.

Ever notice the level of Hatred on political messageboards?

Faith without Love is dead. Intellectualism without Love is a disease.

Sorry for digressing all over the place..its my style.

[arcane1]

10. I am taking Paul's (God's) words as they were written

I'm not adding things to it that were not there. I would think that as a believer, one would be more prone to re-interpret and excuse passages that may conflict with one's personal ethics. These passages specifically tell servants to obey their "arthly masters"

"Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable." 1 Peter 2:18


you are saying this passage condemns slavery, and cherishes freedom? Does Paul always say the opposite of what he means?


I'm not trying to get into a theo debate here, the words are there. Individual freedom and liberty is not given to us as a gift from god. At least, the bible says otherwise, I don't know what bible Bush reads

[Tigermoose]

11. Spiritual freedom.

Paul emphasizes the spiritual freedom granted through Christ. Wordly freedom is sometimes opposed to spiritual freedom. That's his, and my, point.

[Tigermoose]

5. Allah, Yahwe, I AM, same God, different understanding.

The islamic faith worships the invisible god of the biblical Old Testament with an adherence to rules and "the law." Christianity says that God manifested Himself in the person of Jesus Christ to serve as a visible, historical example through his perfection and his commandment to love God and neighbor, as well as becoming Man in order to share in our experience and thus provide a bridge of salvation that allows for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life (the New Testament being the written record of Jesus's acts and teachings, along with the understanding of the early Church provided by experience and the Holy Spirit). The islamic faith denies Christ's divinity and says that Allah was the last and final prophet of God (like the Old testament prophets but final), and that Allah gives the final rules and law for how to obey Allah's will. Jesus came to show us that obeying law is fruitless and impossible, and it is only through Love that we can do God's will. Allah's "revelations" began after Jesus manifested into Mankind.

So...the islamic faith's understanding of God is not the understanding of Christianity. I'm not sure about Islam's perception of the Holy Spirit as the 3rd member of the Trinity, but I'm pretty sure they don't recognize Her either.

[Wanet]

6. Most Christians believe that all monotheists worship the same God

I certainly do. May I ask what denomination you belong to?

[strategery blunder]

12. I am a Christian who believes bu$h* is a modern-day Pharisee

Just a few examples...

Luke 12:15
Then he said to them, (the crowd) "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." (Sound like Bush proselytizing?)

Matthew 5: 9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

Furthermore, the Bible warns to look out for those who are false prophets, which immediately raises suspicion of bu$h*:

Jeremiah 14:14
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries, and the delusions of their own minds."

So, no, I do not believe that bu$h* is a Christian. The Bible also states that Christians can tell who is a Christian by their 'fruit,' i.e. their actions and the results of their actions; sorry, I don't have the verse handy.

Also, I believe Islam recognizes Jesus Christ as a prophet.

[ck4829]

13. The belief that Allah and Yahweh are different deities...

is actually supported by 'tolerant' people such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. The fact that Bush says Islam is a religion of peace and his Pluralistic stances are really the only things I find commendable about him. In this day and age we should not be divided by religion but instead brought together by our diversity. I have had many experiences with Islam and Muslims; having many Muslim friends, having a relationship with a Muslim girl, reading the Koran, and temporarily being a Muslim myself. And I can say Islam does not deserve the verbal abuse it gets from the Christian Right.

[ithacan]

15. "Allah" is Arabic for "God"

Christians and Jews who are native Arabic speakers use the same word as Arabic speaking Muslims for God: Allah

[arcane1]

16. supported by me, too

I treat all religions equally, amd am not bothered by any particular doctrine conflicting with another

For example, as far as I know Allah did not impregnate a virgin named Mary, to bear him a son for the purpose of dying for Man's sins.

That was Yahweh's son.

[strategery blunder]

14. Kick

:kick: