Reagan-Bush gave us al Qaeda. They were awful presidents, DAMMIT!

[ochazuke]

Does anyone have some good facts to bolster this argument? Let's make sure the truth gets out during the Regan love fest. It's like a negative TV ad: if you let it pass, people will think Reagan was a great president who saved us from communism, blah, blah, blah.

Here's my take. I hope this is not news to anyone. All DUers should know what total failures Reagan and Bush I were in the foreign policy area:

Through his inordinate fear of communism and love to demagogue the issue, Reagan ignored what was really going on in the world and never thought of the consequences of his anti-Soviet campaign. (I'm thinking of the support of the Taliban and other Jihadists in Afghanistan when they were fighting the Soviets, then abandoning the country.) His failure to seek out the terrorists who killed our Marines in Lebanon gave many the idea that America could be easily intimidated by terror.

Bush (the elder) is lauded as a great foreign policy president with his masterful performance during the Gulf War. But the things that stick out to me are his INVITATION to Saddam t invade Kuwait (Amb. Glasby's message to Hussein, DOD or State dept. news conference declaring a lack of defense pacts w/Kuwait.) plus his failure to win the end game against Saddam (allowing helicopter gun ships to return to Iraq, calling on Iraqis to rise up (which they did, and he did nothing as Saddam slaughtered them.) Finally, leaving a large force in the Middle East to irritate the Wahabis.

[physioex]

1. Wasn't the precursor to Al-Qaeda..

The Mujahadeen "Freedom Fighters"....??

[ochazuke]

2. Right

When Reagan calls someone a "freedom fighter", WATCH OUT! They'll be fighting freedom alright.

[wirenut]

3. end game?

I refer to the end of your letter, " the failure to win the end game", The UN had the say on the way the war ended, the goal was to remove Saddam from Quait, then Saddam sued for a ceasefire, with the conditions: He would remain in power in Iraq, and he would disarm and give sanctions to the UN to observe his conduct, to put it in a nutshell. That is a bit simplified, but am I wrong? George 1 did what he was allowed by the UN?

[ochazuke]

4. George the first's flub

There was no UN mandate to remove Saddam from power, yet Bush I called upon the people of Iraq to revolt against Saddam's rule, and Bush's generals allowed Saddam to have the tools needed to ruthlessly suppress that revolt. Saddam's generals just asked "can we have our gunships back?" and we said yes. Wow. What did they think they were going to do with them?

Eventually there was a humanitarian relief effort in northern Iraq to aid the Kurdish refugees there. That effort showed that the administration's insistance that America could not safely intervene in the area was false.

These events are what I call the end game. Bush could have done a much better job of it while following the will of the U.N.

[pittguy578]

5. Reply

I am sorry, but a more pressing issue for Reagan was the 20,000 nuclear warheads which were aimed at the United States. That was more of a threat than any jihadist movements. )

And what should the U.S. have done with Afghanistan at the time? Let it fall to the Soviets? Hindsight is always 20/20..we didn't want another country to fall under communist rule.

I agree with your assertion that Bush messed up when he didn;t support the uprising in early 1991 after basically giving them the greenlight. As far as leaving the force in the Middle East, you would have to blame Clinton as well who left the force there as well. We didn't have anywhere else to base our planes to patrol the no-fly zones.

[amber dog democrat]

6. Still, what did Reagan accomplish?

The Soviet Uniion, already in decline, collapsed on its own.
The cost of having police manage a federation of 15 different nations proved to be more than they could afford.

We owe Nixon a debt of gratitude for the 1972 ABM treaty, establishing an opening to China and begining disarmament talks with the Soviet Union.

I don't think we had a very clear policy on the Middle East. I wonder with hindsight even if we WOULD have acted differently, but America was in catylist in helping armed resistance in Afhhanistan, leading to the creation of the Taliban.

Its one thing to stop a country from falling into Communist rule, but another to allow it to become exploited by drug smuggling warlords.
We needed to continue on with the nation building we started there instead of letting it become an anti democratic theocracy.

[gold_bug]

8. what should the U.S. have done with Afghanistan

The US policy should have recognized that an unstable Islamic state full of radicals and fundamentalists was not in anyone's interest.

As the Soviets were planning their withdrawal from Afghanistan, and informed the US of their plans to leave Afghanistan, they asked the US to help contain the spread of Islamic fundamentalism. The US ignored them. So the worst case scenario that the Soviets feared came true: the radical Taliban gained power and sheltered OBL and AQ terrorists.

[amber dog democrat]

9. The US was very short sighted. - I agree 100%

We could have helped reconstruct Afghanistan and provided security against warlords, durg smuggling, and religeous radicals instead of walking away from it.

Now we are having to deal with the consequences of this short sighted policy.

[LSK]

7. national debt

Reagans most infamous legacy he will leave with us is his failed Reagonomics and most of our current national debt, which skyrocketed in the 1980s. Thanks Reagan.

Reagan also was a pioneer in bypassing Congress to allow the CIA to play their wargames.