Conversation with a Dedicated & Sincere Republican

[crispini]

So a coworker comes into my office and kinda ribs me about my button. And I ask him, in all seriousness, what's his top 5 reasons for voting for Bush, 'cause I'd like to hear them. And we go on and have a nice conversation, very calm, no minds were changed.

So, get this. His top reason for voting for Shrub? Because he believes that Shrub thinks like he does. He explained that his Christian faith leads him to always consult with God about his life and about decisions and he thinks that GWB also thinks this way. He specifically said that his support for Shrub had absolutely nothing to do with his position on issues or policy but about the fact that Shrub seems, to him, to be a man of God.

I responded that one of my #1 reasons for voting for Kerry is because I believe him to think like I do, but in a completely different way. I said that it seems to me that Shrub is very much a "black and white" thinker, i.e. "You're with us or you're against us." I said that it seemed to me that Kerry is good with nuances and shades of gray, and I think that that is exactly the kind of thinking that we need now in the Middle East, where the decisions that Shrub is making are causing the whole world to hate the US.

And he *agreed* with me. He said that Christianity is black and white -- that Jesus said You're either with us or against us...! And then we had a nice little conversation about the seperation of church and state ... but anyway. The whole discussion was very civil... but DUDES! I just HAD to come on here and vent. I mean, first of all, I'm not a Christian, but I used to be one, and I don't recall that Jesus said, "You're either with us or against us." Somebody help me out here, is that *really* a Christian attitude to take? And second of all, wow, the whole fact that his vote for GWB has absolutely nothing to do with the issues of the day and everything to do with the fact Shrub is a Christian.

What really wigs me is that he is a nice, wholesome guy. And I am a decent, honorable person. And I just felt like we were on completely different planets. The whole thing just made me feel this weird mixture of pride (for keeping it civil), vague nausea (for what he was saying), and determination! To work even HARDER to defeat Shrub. Brrrrrrrrr! The whole thing was very wiggy.

[KurtNYC]

1. Bush makes the rules, he doesnt follow them

Bush doesn't think he is a Christian so much as he thinks he IS Christ. He can't think of anything he has done wrong. Can't say the phrase "shame on me" (so he substitutes "won't get fooled again). Can't say he was ever alcoholic.

Isn't humility the first step toward forgiveness? If so, when is * going to take it?

[Jo March]

7. Yes, he has to ask for forgiveness

but he never will because he doesn't think that he has anything to ask forgiveness for.

Arrogance. That's all it is.

[aden_nak]

2. With us or against us?

Certainly that's been a part of Christianity in many forms. There's little need to go looking for it in the Catholic Church (where apparently people can be denied Communion based on their political stances). But it goes deeper than that. In the Puritan foundings of this nation, the threat of hellfire and brimstone was a primary motivating factor, religiously. Worship as we tell you, exactly when and where we tell you, or you will be damned for all eternity. If that's not "with us or against us" I don't know what is.

But it was Jesus (taking the Bible as a historical text) who spoke against judgmental attitudes, black-and-white assumptions and so on. There are no "good guys" and "bad guys" according to the teachings of Jesus.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

A good lesson, and an intelligent reaction to the mindless bloodlust of vengeance. I'm not a Christian myself (born and raised Roman Catholic), but I've often found that if you can separate the bullshit and the dogma from the concepts, there's a tranquil philosophy in that poor, doomed Rabbi's life tale.

[skygazer]

20. Bit of a tangent here but

You say you're not a Christian but a Roman Catholic. I'm a happy atheist so I'm no expert but I thought the definition of a Christian was someone who believed that Christ was the son of god. In that case, wouldn't Catholics be considered Christians? Just wondering - I've been trying to unravel religious groups of late and it's simply mind boggling!

[realisticphish]

24. im gonna agree with the poster above here

what do you mean by you're catholic, not christian?

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[theKnave]

29. re: "with us or against us"

While Jesus never said, "you're either with us, or against us," He
had said (paraphrased), "No one reaches my Father (or His Kingdom), but through me." Which, I guess, can be loosely translated/paraphrased into "you're either with us, or against us".

[baby_mouse]

46. I do recall

Somewhere in the Bible, Jeses saying: "What you think I am here to bring peace? Nay, but rather division."

But I can't remember where. It IS there.

I guess I should look it up for chapter and verse.

[DebJ]

3. Here's how to possibly get to this guy. I have a guy like

this at work whose entire family feels this way. So far, I have succeeded in getting this guy to at least NOT vote (as opposed to voting for Bush...in Pennsylvania, that's still a win in my book).

Today he said I just wish you weren't so divisive, so anti-Bush all the way. I said, give me something good about him, and I'll bring you documented evidence tomorrow to the contrary for you to read.

He came back with Bush has faith, believes in God, is a Christian.
I said, Bush TALKS faith, just like the Pharisees did.
Are we going to be judged by our actions, or by our words?

Bush has killed tens of thousands of Iraqis.
Bush lets poor and elderly people and children go without medicine and food and shelter. He hurts people. He makes them suffer. He kills people. Is this Christianity in action?
I said he is a Killer for Christ. And tomorrow I will add, that takes people AWAY from Christianity. He is not gaining souls for Christ and for God, he is taking people AWAY from him. THAT will really get to my friend, who is evangelical every day all day, trying to get people to go to God.

My coworker said something about taking money (from the rich) to feed the poor. I said, first of all, it is the rich guys (unsaid but recognized: the people who own the business WE work for) who decided to pay people like us starvation wages of $6-$8 per hour, so that they can have their $3 million in profits every quarter to share between the two of them. They could pay us more. They know it is not enough to survive on. They know WE are doing the work.
They CHOOSE to create wages like this so we don't have enough money for food, clothing, housing and medicine.
Then they vote so that they get back $88k more a year in taxes, so that the government can't help us either.

I said, the basics of the two parties we have are this: one moves money from the poor, who have no money to begin with, and the middle class, to the upper class.
The other moves money from the rich, who will not pay you the fair results of your labor, and lets the government support those who are barely surviving.
Which is the Christian choice?
To create slavery and suffering, or to be fair with wages and taxes and ease pain?

[Jo March]

6. And what is so bad about feeding the poor with money from the rich?

Who in their right mind objects to feeding the poor?!?

[DebJ]

9. George W. Bush, and most of all Dickhead Cheney, who was

one of two people in Congress who voted against the school lunch programs EVERY SINGLE YEAR THAT HE HAD A VOTE.

The point is, my friend really would NOT be against that. He is a little slow, and I believe bipolar, and very much under the influence of his family's 'Christian' words. His father even told him that if he voted for Kerry, he would no longer be a part of their family.

[Jo March]

11. Darn kids wanting to eat lunch

Maybe their parents should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get a job. </sarcasm>

Cheney will pay in spades, my friends.

[vduhr]

27. Key words

"...right mind..." are the key words here.

[crispini]

15. Mmm hmm!

All very good points. Duly stowed away in my mind for Round 2.

[Jo March]

4. No, being that way is not Christian

Sigh. I hate having this conversation with my conservative friends so I know your pain.

There are things in the Bible that are black and white - how to treat the poor and the downtrodden, how not to kill, how to love your neighbor as you love yourself.

I challenge any Christian to find ONE Bible verse from Jesus that supports ANYTHING that Bush has done. The war with Iraq for example. Have this guy show you the exact verse where Jesus says that it's okay to have a pre-emptive war.

They never can because Jesus is about love and forgiveness and tolerance.

Bush may be praying but he isn't getting his answers from God or Jesus.

[grace0418]

22. He's hearing voices is what it is

Bush isn't talking to god, he's mentally ill. There's a difference. The Christian right is neither Christian nor right.

[WoodrowFan]

5. Jesus said what?

I am a practicing Christian and I sure can't think where Jesus said "you're with me or against me!". I'm not even sure what verse this guy would twist to get to that. Ask him for a verse next time!

[MUSTANG_2004]

49. It's Luke 11:23

"He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."

[reprehensor]

8. Jesus said a lot of things.

"I am the light and the way."

"To get to the father, there is no other way than through me."

"If thou wilt be perfect, give up thy gold, and follow me."

"Ye must be born again."

This is coming from memory, so sorry there's no chapter and verse. But yeah, the King James version of the Bible quotes Jesus as saying these things. So, it's pretty black & white on a few things.

That's why I like the Jefferson Bible, so far, all the miracles are editied out and its focused on Jesus' moral lessons.

But of course, different denominations interpret all this stuff differently.

Does that help?

[vduhr]

28. Yes, he did say a lot of things, but

they are not black and white. One has to analyze a bit to know that what He was actually saying was to believe in His teachings, which were to love and tolerate and understand each other. He is asking that we believe in the good He is teaching and to "follow" that, to be "born-again" is to open your mind to understanding. When you are born, you know nothing until you learn it - so be born-again and learn anew of love and tolerance. Whether He was the son of God or just a plain ole' human being (with a whole lot of insite) is irrelavant. In other words, you don't have to believe He was the son of God, just try to understand the simple basics of love and tolerance towards each other that He tried to teach us, and where that leads the human race (perhaps Heaven right here on Earth?) Most every religion believes in a sole God or highest being, so if He wanted to convince us to believe in His teachings, He needed to say He was the son of "God", especially during His time. I for one believe He was because He had such insite for someone of His time. But, you see, that doesn't matter, as long as we try to follow His ideas, which were only good. Religions don't teach that -- religions teach that you are either for us or against us (us being that specific Church's beliefs or interpretations). Religion teaches intolerance and hatred to such an extent, it creates fear. I belong to no religion because of this. (Also, the word church does not mean a structure or building, it means a group of people gathering together to practice His teachings.) Sorry if I ranted, but I believe so strongly in this.

[intheflow]

48. Jefferson Bible

rocks! Gotta love a reasoned deist!

[tandot]

10. Define what it means to be "a man of God"

Kerry is religious and goes to church as often as Bush.

Nobody has the right to tell me what to believe in, and no President should ever let his own personal beliefs interfere with taking care of ALL Americans...not just a few fundamentalists.

Osama bin Laden and all the other fanatics consulted their "...God about his life and about decisions..." ... I don't want my President to do the same...


Besides most policies coming from Bush are not very Christian: He started wars, allowed corporations to pollute and destroy our environment, took money away from the poor to give tax break to the filthy rich, pushed more people into unemployment and poverty, he lies and cheats, and he is using his religion as a tool to gain votes...I would call that totally opposed to any Christian values I know of...

[DebJ]

13. Great comparison between Osama and Bush! Why didn't I think

of that!

[NMDemDist2]

12. maybe he should listen to Clinton at Riverside church yesterday

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=Bill+Clinton

Clinton spoke of where your values take you and "seeing thru the glass darkly"

[fudge stripe cookays]

14. Alright.

Now I'm intrigued.

you have to PM me and let me know who it was! ;-)
Or call.

FSC

[monster618]

16. Your coworker is wrong

"Let he who is free of sin cast the first stone."

"He who lives by the sword dies by the sword."

"Turn the other cheek."

Bush's actions are in direct contradiction to these statements by Jesus. I find it strange that so many Right-wingers get so emotional, with tears streaming down their faces, when they talk about their love of God, then they'll turn around and talk about the beauty of Shock and Awe (remember that one?) and killing all the liberals (Rush). I call this the "Jesus Switch" - they flick it on and off as it suits them.

[ilyashl]

17. no hope changing minds like that

Perhaps we should focus on getting out the Democratic vote. Convincing a Democrat who might not vote to go and vote seems doable, at least in principle. Convincing your co-worker not to vote for Bush doesn't seem doable.

[JimmyJazz]

18. If God is for us...

who can be against us. I think that's the biblical quote to which your friend was referring. The distortion of this quote by George Bush is actually quite frightening when you think about it. Is Bush calling himself God? Is your friend calling Bush God?

[skygazer]

19. These people make my brain hurt

Today in my local paper there was a LTTE in which a lady shrilly warned that John Kerry would "consult the UN before any military action"! Beyond the pure fallacy of that remark, I can't help but notice the similarity of what your co-worker said -

"He explained that his Christian faith leads him to always consult with God about his life and about decisions and he thinks that GWB also thinks this way."

So it's good when Dumya consults God but it's bad that Kerry might want to include the UN? Is it just me or are these people as crazy as their candidate?

[John In WA]

21. I'm Curious

I'm new to this message board........and I was just wondering about all the lingo used here...."dumya", "shrub", etc...I'm a Democrat but can't believe the hatred I read on here........please don't flame away at me for I'm just not used to reading posts such as these and did not know such extreme hatred and lack of respect exists. I guess I'm "old school" and believe there should be some respectful tolerance where people do not agree.

[monster618]

23. The way I see it...

...many people have been personally affected by this man. They have either lost their job, or can't find one, or they have lost a family member or friend in a war that they feel we should not be fighting. Why should we be nice and respectful when talking about him? I was raised to believe that respect is something you earn, not something you demand.

I personally do not get too into the name-calling. I participate in other message boards where I debate against people from the other side. I prefer to let my facts and... >ahem<.. witty charm do the damage.

In a debate, I would agree with you; be respectful, use facts, use proper English (Bush could teach us a thing or two about that) and watch the other guy lose his temper (there is a bit of satisfaction in that). But in here, we all mostly feel the same way, and we are free to vent as we wish.

Do you want to see some REAL hatred? There is a post on this very board (Bush, Conservatism, etc.) entitled, "Best example of Freeper hate" (or something along those lines). Check out some of the links. THAT is real hatred. Calling Bush Shrub or Chimp pales in comparison to that.

Oh, one last thing.
WELCOME TO DU!!! :toast:

[realisticphish]

25. ill agree with the poster above

it really boils down to what we have to do to stay afloat. we've lived so long being called commie fags, etc, that we just react that way.. belive me, i would never name-call a republican that respects my opinion, but i do not believe that * or his administration does that. ergo, name-calling ensues. also, this IS a progressives-only place. we just kick back and discuss stuff, and are free to vent in such little ways when we cannot do so in real life...


welcome to DU!


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[skygazer]

26. They're affectionate nicknames

You know, like Pinko, Commie, damned Hippie Radical, that sort of thing. You've never heard a Democrat called those things? My own father has called me them.

Respect has to be earned. George W. Bush, calling himself President of the United States, has not earned any respect from me and has shown me precious little as an American citizen and voter.

That said, welcome to DU!

[mahina]

31. Ya right

Enjoy your stay!

Edited to say...Welcome...all you kind DU'ers amaze me. What an incredible thread full of love and tolerance. Except mine. Oh well...I'm learning...

[kittynboi]

30. This kind of thing really worries me sometimes....

Religion and the like aside, this guy more or less admitted that he is voting yet doesn't really realte to the issues, the things you're really supposed to vote in regards too. It's essentially like saying..."I don't know anything about the issues, but I'm voting anyway." Shouldn't a person familiarize themselves with the issues BEFORE voting? sheeeesh

[davidh_R]

32. Revelations 3:16

Where i believe that he is getting this from Revelations 3:16 where it says (NIV bible) "So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth"

[Still_Notafraid]

33. Well

As a Christan it is your duty to follow the teachings of Christ above all other prophets he was the son of god which makes him a little more enlightened and knowledgeable then the rest.Christ does contrast with many of the other Prophets on some things. one that is very popular 1.eye for an eye 2.let he is with out sin cast the first stone. this to me is a major contrast.

I was a born again Christan for many years very active in my younger years but now i am a atheist due to my research in science,history and archeology my findings i will not go into detail but i will say its much like the way the media controls the way you get news a lot of facts go unknown.that and i think religion plays a important role in the lives of people that do believe but voting based on it is just wrong.

[Foxman]

34. How do I respond to this?

Since I don't have enough post to start my own tread yet, I figured this would be the best place for me to ask 'how do I respond to this? This is an Email from a Republican friend of mine. Although we disagree strongly about politics, we have a lot of respect for each other. We got to know each well because our daughters played softball together for many years. I want to tell he's way off here, but still keep his friendship. Anyway, here's his letter:

"You know one thing that amazes me most about the Bush bashers? They have blasted him for what he did or said as Governor and they blast him for what he does or says as President and they even put out tripe like this video that seems to say he has changed his position. Then those very same individuals stand up and say with a straight face that they support John Kerry....who is arguably the greatest position waffler in history. Kerry is an idiot who hasn't got any idea of how to run this country, he has the integrity and backing of Ted Kennedy (FYI..this is NOT a good thing), and he stands no chance of uniting this country on anything except the knowledge that the Kerry/Edwards ticket will not produce any good for this country. After 911, this country was ready to go after those guilty of the diabolical scheme. We had to depend on intelligence reports to ascertain the identity of the culprits. That same intelligence was used in Iraq, but now everyone scrutinizes. This nation has become so weak because the people lack the guts to follow through on anything, unless it occurs in our own backyard. I will tell you this, you don't want a war on this soil. You are already uncomfortable about a few sniper-type tactics. Wait until a bomb kills your loved ones. Wait until it is one of your relatives who is beheaded. I really don't care how long it takes, I don't care how many have to be killed until this crap is stopped. Like it or not, this country was spawned out of rebellion and you can lose it as soon as you are unwilling to fight for it. I would rather have a hawk leading this country than a sparrow any day of the week. I also believe that morally, we have an obligation to help the people of the world who are under dictators like Hussein, Castro, Arafat, etc........ We contribution BILLIONS of our tax dollars to these people and countries. By the way, those are OUR dollars collected (or to be collected in the future) that pay for this. That means that fiscally we have an obligation to monitor these operations. Ask yourself what you would do if this country was overrun by another nation and we were placed under a tyrant's control. How much would you pray then for someone to help? Please tell me you have truly thought this through. This world is a crazy place. Anytime some nut gets into a position where he/she thinks they can hold the world hostage, they will. You have to place a lasting reminder of what those consequences will be for actions of those nature, because, like it or not, they do affect you and me and Rachel and Kim. And if you think that the war in Iraq is about oil (this would be akin to the Vietnam war which was proliferated under the democratic regime, by the way), then let us resolve that problem by having every believer stop using cars, planes, air conditioning, heating, etc.....This will greatly ease the shortage of oil and we won't need other resources. But, of course, you know that won't happen. Why? because America has become a nation of spoiled whiners. They love the freedom and the life they are allowed to live, they just don't want to pay the price to defend it from those who want it as well. That is ashame too, because this used to be the greatest nation on earth and now the gutless masses are making us a laughingstock and it will only get worse unless we get tough once again. Think about it. I assure you, I have ALOT !!!!!!!!!"

[Francesca]

37. your friend is repeating arguments that came straight from the white-house

He claims to have thought a lot about his position but he does not appear to have any original thoughts in his letter. I would point out to him that contrary to what most republicans have been told to believe you do in fact share similar concerns for your country.

a number of things that he states that you could counter (I am in the middle of making an enormous batch of tomato sauce which is in the simmering stage so I have the luxury of giving you a winded response....)



1. Re "Kerry stands no chance in uniting this country on anything...
You should point out that Bush has created unprecedented division...I am only 29 years but I can say in my short lifetime I have never seen so much hostility and polarization in peoples political leanings. If your friend thinks bush is a uniter he has some screws loose...

2. He discusses intelligence after 9/11 and going after those "guilty of diabolical schemes...". You should point out that there was no uncertainty about who was guilty for 9/11 (that being Bin Laden and Al Queda). Point out that we spent a very minimal effort catching those guilty and one hell of an effort catching Saddam who at best some argue may have been friendly towards bin laden). The reality is Hussein had ZERO to do with Bin Laden, had a nearly non existent army and...ok you know all this. Just stick to the points that you know he can't argue with. Where is Bin Laden and where is the evidence that we did everything in our power to catch those responsible??????

3. Regarding his emotional diatribe on "wait until a bomb kills your loved ones".... Is he for real? don't even respond to that. Of course no one wants this. Frankly is this a legitimate threat at the moment.... I really don't think so but trying to argue that with this guy sounds futile.

4. Re "I don't care how many have to be killed to stop this crap"... Does he care if the people getting killed are innocent and have nothing to do with terrorism... Honestly from his tone I am betting he does not, so you might want to ignore that and just say something like "I don't care about how much killing we have to do.. Lets just make sure we are killing the right people". He may respond to that!.

5. RE: "I also believe that morally, we have an obligation to help the people of the world who are under dictators like Hussein, Castro, Arafat..". Ask him if we should make it a policy to invade the many non democratic country's since we are obligated to help them.... And then ask him why our obligations to help others is only applicable to a very limited group? Ask him why the hell we have not come to the aid of Sudan?

OK he seems confused and I am curious about the "holding the world hostage" comment... and about the oil in Iraq; how does The Average Americans inability to sacrifice driving their SUV's prove that the war in IRAQ was not driven by our desire for more oil???? If anything I think he just argued the case!! Your friend reminds me so much of my friends and family I am getting upset... I keep running back to stir my sauce.........

"America is a bunch of spoiled whiners.. they don't want to pay the price to defend......." He is describing certain key Republicans rather well here... Remind him how much Bush and Cheney were willing to fight for our country in Vietnam.... He should be proud of their willingness to fight.... And he claims we have to fight against the people who want our freedom...that contradicts his prior words... why are these people fighting us if they want freedom and thats what we are giving them.... You know your friend is right in part... other people around the world ARE fighting for freedom (and that is according to your friend worth fighting for) but we are not exporting freedom here... We did not go to IRAQ to give them freedom... your friend is by the way confused about why we went (can you blame him though - the white house has given us at least a dozen different agendas in the last year..) I believe the insurgents in Iraq are under the impression that we are in Iraq for the longterm and they have voiced this concern... This is the reason they make demands to different nations "pull your troops or I will behead this hostage". I personally can't identify with killing innocent people and I find the murder of these hostages nauseating but I am surprised your friend who "Does not care how many have to be killed" finds these tactics unusual and I am especially surprised he does not sympathize as he is so keen on hammering home the point that we need to FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT.

OK I just checked the sauce and calmed myself... I could go on and on........ Let me just say I can relate to you... You must be very frustrated... I am frustrated daily..make that hourly as I am the only Dem in my family, in my husbands family and a good 1/2 of my friends are militant Republicans (used to be one myself...). I hear the kind of attacks you shared in that email constantly... Unfortunately I have to say NOTHING you say will make a difference with certain people. If you have an opening great but if not its best for your health to leave it alone with certain people.... I ABSOLUTELY NEVER follow the above advice and the stress is killing me....

[Foxman]

41. How do I respond to this?

Francesca:

Thanks for you reply. I would like to hear from more of my fellow DU'ers so that I can get a bigger sample of what would be the right reponse.

[Amesh]

35. Letter to President Bush

President George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC


Dear President Bush,

I am writing you to inform you and your staff that I have officially changed my vote in the presidential election to Senator John Kerry. It was an arduous process considering that I have never voted for a Democrat in any election.

I believed in your presidency and enthusiastically supported and defended you throughout the majority of your term however; I no longer wish to defend you.

I believe you have damaged the case for capitalism, acted to entrench religion into government, and ultimately your re-election will transform the Republican Party into the official political wing of would-be Christian theocrats.

My disagreement with you stems almost entirely from your incestuous mixing of religion and politics. America is the greatest country ever in existence. What distinguished America from other nations was it was explicitly founded with ideas from the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment. Reason, not faith, was the guiding principle. Following logical conclusions, the Framers created the first country every to recognize the rights of the individual. This revolutionary idea translated into freedom.

Freedom includes freedom of religion and freedom from religion (contrary to Senator Elizabeth Dole’s statement) In America, religion is a private matter that should not have any bearing in public life. Religious considerations must explicitly be separated from government policy because religion—due to its erroneous elevation of faith over reason—ultimately leads to oppression, strife, and bloodshed. Countless historical examples bear this association out. Our country is not one that is “under God” but one that is under Aristotle and John Locke.

For you and your party to pervert the meaning of the Framers and to smuggle in Christian propaganda is, in my mind, akin to treason. As it was in your father’s administration that the Berlin wall was torn down, I believe your administration may be the one in which the wall between church and state is demolished.

You are the de facto spokesman for the fundamentalist movement in the country. The evangelicals have faded from the limelight. They have no need to preach the dictates of religion any longer because they cannot compete with the import you, yourself, give to religion.

The House recently passed a legislative abomination to prohibit the Supreme Court from ruling on matters regarding the constitutionality of the Pledge of Allegiance. This ludicrous pandering piece of legislation is the hallmark of a theocracy and not a free republic. It brazenly violates so much of what the Framers intended that it is not even worthy of discussion.

While you have admirably toppled Saddam Hussein, the theocrats that are the leading sponsors of terrorism remain intact. The mullahs of Iran and their official foreign policy of terror lie comfortably while our soldiers are in a misdirected war with no exit in site. Nuclear capability is imminent. Saudi Arabia, whom most of the September 11 hijackers call home, has not been rebuked, has not been reprimanded and continues to be labeled an ally when they are the home of the radical Islamic fundamentalism that animates the terrorists.

I believe you are unable to deal with the Iranian and Saudi threat because your religion cripples you. There is no real-difference between your faith-based initiatives and Sharia law. They both represent incursions on the line between church and state. Christian fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism are not so different. They both denigrate the role of women, both demand the surrender of the mind, and both have led to massive annihilations of the population.

We are not safer than before September 11. The dictator in North Korea continues to play games worthy of a bully, continues to get concession after concession from your administration and nuclear aspirations continue unchecked.

Israel, the only true ally in the region, lies vulnerable while your administration handcuffs its ability to defend itself, and Yasir Arafat is coddled by successive American administrations.

Domestically, you have squandered a great opportunity for freedom and have passed laws that do not belong in America. FCC censorship actions, bans on partial birth abortion, and attacks on embryonic stem cell research prove you to not be a defender of freedom.

It is my sincere hope that if you are defeated, your party will eradicate the religious fervor that has infested and corroded it and will produce a candidate I can support.

You once said that the terrorists “hijacked a great religion”, you have hijacked a great country.

Sincerely,

[Francesca]

36. I RELATE very strongly!!!

I was raised a born again...My mother and stepfather (who is a pastor) are frankly wonderful people but their political beliefs are painfully frustrating to deal with. In any event I had quite a row with coworker this week who claimed we did find WMD's and NUCLEAR material in IRAQ. Additionally he claimed he saw footage of Hussein and Bin Laden on a primetime channel laughing it up over the 9/11 attack. I told him he was mistaken. He said I was mistaken and I should "Look it up".. I told him bin laden was not anywhere near Iraq after 9/11 and he said I was wrong......... I work for my husbands family and they are all republicans... my mother works with us as well...i am completely outnumbered. I watch the news daily, listen to NPR and read at least 5 papers a week.... Most of them hear the news from fellow church members and right wing radio shows........ Nothing I say (no matter how infallible and articulate) can breach their defenses...... I have become so frustrated with these disagreements that I went to my physician in june to prescrible me something for my temper.... She gave me lexapro and sleeping pills........can't say it's helping...... Most people would tell me to just avoid these confrontations. THis is very difficult as I am surrounded by them from people I LOVE very much and who regretably feel just as strongly about their positions as I do about mine..... Crap I need to get moving and go to work... I just registered here and am spending way too much time venting..... THANK you for your post by the way..

[p0sitivevibez]

38. God

Im a Christian, in fact an Orthodox (strict) Christian. Jesus teaches tolerance and compassion, so there is no "black and white" issue. The radical right just makes it like that cuz they're fanatical a**holes.

[holiday]

39. ugh

I get so sick of people voting for Bush JUST because they think he is a good Christian man. yeah right

[Zontor]

40. Conversation with a decicated and sincere republican

I have been told the same by many conservatives I know. It is because Bush practices his faith, he seeks the guidance of God.

Ok that is his right. The conversations follow this general line. I ask in those times when his guidance is at odds with the Constitution what then? We must follow the Lord is the general answer. How can you know that Bush is following God? Because God lays it on your heart it's not like actually hearing God speak to you. So Bush prays to God and has strong emotions about what he should do? Well no, God guides him just like he guides me. If you don't believe its hard to explain. But that is precisly the quandry your whole persepction of what God wants is based upon your perceived feelings of what God wants. You have to have some filter. Well its the bible. Which part? Jesus said he came to fullfill the law and reserves the right to punish and judge to God. If the bible is the filter then Bush will be judged for his wrongs correct? Well yes, but you don't understand, he is doing the work of God he was called to be President. It doesn't matter whether I understand all I want you to do is go back to your bible and read it carefully and decide if Bush is truly honoring his mother and father, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, and showing love to his fellow man.

Christianity by its teachings has no other position than 'you are for us or against us' it does not follow that Christians will act with violence towards those who oppose them based on those teachings. For those very teachings say to react with kindess and love. It is far easier to argue Jesus preached against violence than for violence. Bush's proclaimed faith is an obstacle in light of his actions concerning Iraq. Although Jesus never said you should not be a soldier he told Peter to put away your sword for those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. For the Christian the judgement of the world culminates in their vindication for their faith in Jesus as the Messiah. Not the Christian rising up in arms and being vindicated for their faith in Christ.

Religion is a great thing for many people, they have the right to believe what they choose. Fortunately I have the right to ignore them.

[MsMagnificent]

42. Well, there appears to be an all-or-none response

Heaven or Hell.
Limbo/Purgatory is not in the bible, it's apparently man-made.

The Gnostics felt (feel still?) that if you're basically a good person that you'll end up in heaven anyways but not to say that out loud or too much because people would then turn into raging opportunists.
That did indeed happen with the "Born Again" movement -- as they said to me 'once you are saved, you are forever saved; no matter what you do after.'

Nice loophole huh? :D

[riverwalker]

43. he is not a "nice wholesome guy"

not "nice" at all. Your friend is responsible for people dying in the thousands. He has an infantile, immature, adolescent belief system that has caused more pain to this planet than anything else. He is spiritualy lazy, and we and others are paying the price for his ignorance. To be so self centered and stupid in this day and age is unforgivable. I hold the feet of these people to the fire when I meet them, they are dangerous. Thermonuclear holocaust on earth for Jeebus is not "nice".

[Carla Malone]

44. Cant have it both ways...respectful discussion

You say you were once a Christian. You were obviously not born again or you would know that with Jesus, there is no gray area. How can someone live a sinful life and expect to be rewarded by living with their heavenly father for all eternity? This makes no sense. If you had a dog and trained it to obey all of your commands, but one day you call it and it looks into your eye purposefully and runs in the other direction, do you reward it with a steak? No. The message of Jesus Christ is to love one another and to love your god above all else. Every person sins, but there is a difference between making a mistake and repenting of it and knowingly defying the will of God in His very face, not changing your sinful nature and then expecting to go to heaven. You are either with Christ, or you are not. Gray areas and nuances are not productive and only seem to create confusion about what one really stands for. Black and White thinking is the only way to get things done. Period.

[Carla Malone]

45. Black and whites the only way to go!!!!

You say you were once a Christian. You were obviously not born again or you would know that with Jesus, there is no gray area. How can someone live a sinful life and expect to be rewarded by living with their heavenly father for all eternity? This makes no sense. If you had a dog and trained it to obey all of your commands, but one day you call it and it looks into your eye purposefully and runs in the other direction, do you reward it with a steak? No. The message of Jesus Christ is to love one another and to love your god above all else. Every person sins, but there is a difference between making a mistake and repenting of it and knowingly defying the will of God in His very face, not changing your sinful nature and then expecting to go to heaven. You are either with Christ, or you are not. Gray areas and nuances are not productive and only seem to create confusion about what one really stands for. Black and White thinking is the only way to get things done. Period.

[unpossibles]

51. I will assume you are joking n/t

[intheflow]

47. link to Bush Vs. Jesus political ad

This is from Mad Magazine, not the most trusted news source, but this one is way on the mark. Takes Bible quotes from Jesus to bust Bush's arguments against liberals AND undercut his claim to be a good Christian.

I go to a liberal seminary and this is hanging up in offices and study carrols all over campus.

http://www2.warnerbros.com/madmagazine/files/onthestands/ots_446/jesus.html

Good luck!

[Is It Fascism Yet]

50. a dedicated and sincere republican is a mythical beast

something like the unicorn.