Freepers Claim Nazis are on the Left

[Kire]

I've been checking some of the "Hardball Politics" boards, etc., on the net and something I've noticed is that some Right Wingers are claiming that the Nazis are on the Left, because they are called the National Socialist Party. I don't know why I've noticed it only just today, but with this win they are getting meaner and meaner, and less and less logical. Has anyone else noticed this? Is this a new phenomenon?

[theorist]

1. I heard Rush say stuff like this years ago.

They have no real understanding of history, so what do you expect?

[NativeTexan]

57. They STAY confused!...Because pre-WWII Germany....

.....was under ideological seige running up to the Bush-like power-grab that he made in the early thirties.

From the left it was the Communists. As a typical RIGHT-WING extremist does....(see: George W. Bush)....Hitler LIED! And his lies BEGAN with using the word "Socialist" in the name of his party, as a misdirection to say, "Those guys want to conquer you.....we want to 'protect' the SOCIAL status you already enjoy"!! In other words, Hitler used "socialist" like the Bush Fascist Party uses "PATRIOT"!!

[Fovea]

2. compared to them,

they may indeed be.
But I prefer to think that they are mostly ignorant mouth breathers.

[TN al]

3. It's not new...

...usually a younger freeper will have recently looked in a history book and latched upon that one work, socialism, and used it to decry the left. They will argue their point vehemently, although their only point is that socialism appears in national socialism, until some older freeper will correct them on it. It only goes to show how shallow right wing thinking is because they clearly can not get anywhere beyond the label.

[leftyandproud]

4. gotta admit

They do a pretty good job at this site...splicing together hitler propaganda that sounds liberal. We know the truth though. Bush is the fascist.

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/

[carnie_sf]

8. And Nazis were fascists

not socialists

[GaoBoHong]

12. They are different.

Fascism is a type of governing system, whereas Socialism is a type of economic system. It is quite possible to have an authoritarian State, such as fascism, and still implement socialist policies, I.E. the Nazi's. The Nazi's were not the "German National Fascist Party."

[ComerPerro]

16. That is the dumbest thing I have read in a while

And I say that having read your other post in this thread.

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition



Maybe this will make things easier for you:

In Socialism, the government regulates and controls corporations.
In Fascism, corporations regulate and control the government.

[joefree1]

37. Exactly, more of the Rapture Right misinformation campaign

Freepers hate getting pegged as fascist. They can't understand how we liberals can see through their dogma of greed, fear, and intolerance.

"Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism as it is a merge of state and corporate power."
Benito Mussolini

[mrbassman03]

89. The type of corporatism you describe is very different...

To our general idea of "corporation" in the Enron/GE/ConAgra sort of way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

It is possible to discuss connections between businesses and the state without the negative connotations that are typically associated with corporations. In the Netherlands and Sweden, for example, the state deals directly with labor unions and specific sectors of industry, increasing the bargaining power those groups have. Wages can be set at fair levels and safety standards can be enforced as a direct result of this link between the state and business.

Just because the words sound similar is no reason to condemn one without research and rational thought. We need to abandon the notion that any connection between the state and business is to be feared.

[dubya_dubya_III]

62. Sociology is the study of various socialisms.

The unitary description of socialism you quote comes from a flawed dictionary.

The 19th century dominance, of crony mafia 'finance capitalism' was identified as the defect of noble mob-regulated Imperial Mercantile-Monopolist Market systems. Liberal Republican Free Market theorists from the Adam Smith (well regulated Free Market) to John Hobson always observed that liberal risk capitalists do not really like doing so. They would much rather be conservative monopolists, rentiers, inside traders, or usurers or in evasive ways achieve unfair advantages to let them profit more easily from the works of others.

America is now facing almost the very same "critical crisis of infrastucture" and corruption that plagued the Imperial Soviet Worker-Mafia Fascists in the late 70's. We are on the same $multi-trillion debt path, spawned by defence waste and over-extension of a decaying, uncompetitive Imperial Mercantile-Mafia Economy. Giving up the well regulated Free Market for the British Mafia-Mercantile Market (to embargo Russia) has trapped America into a suicide pact with Imperial 'Christian' Fascist Britain's corrupt imperial doom.

Handing over all of our commercial means of production and mechanisms of trade to Imperial Red Chinese Worker-Mafia Fascists has been the most tragic mistake in history for once Liberal Republican America

The only real tangible productive wealth that remains in America today is protected war material and clasified military-industrial production technology. Soon we will have and produce nothing but resources that can be safely exported.

[nebenaube]

76. ATT just distributed dictionaries...

ATT recently (last week) distributed free dictionaries for each student at my child's school. I was curious to review it. So far I see that it omits the definition for fascism. Funny, the book has socialism, communism, etc but no mention of fascism.

[DavidMS]

58. Actualy no.

Socialists generaly attempt to break down the existing class system. Fascists generaly streinghten the existing socioeconomic class system and use a combination of perverted religion and nationalism to keep the masses happy. And if they weren't happy with the regieme, they got disapeared.

[wickedcity]

80. No

Socialism is an ideology generally held by those who are opposed to the class system, socialism itself is indifferent to it.

[dubya_dubya_III]

63. Communism was concieved as a new form of Imperial Fascism

That was why it so threatened established Religious Fascists like Churchill, Mussolini and Hitler (Google blackshirts and brownshirts)

Even though Marx had comented that "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." It was Lenin who realized one had to outlaw all competing forms of Religious Socialism so that only Marxist Socialism could stand morally (socially) unchallenged within it's new Fascist, Mercantile Monopolist Imperium.

[hydrashok75]

65. You're seeing this kind of comparison made often...

...because the Freepers and the wingnuts really do think our determination to maintain a non-theocratic, secular govt really is a veiled attempt to "take their Bibles away." It would funny if it weren't both sad and dangerous.

[eurolefty]

20. Indeed, I got to admit that your freeper link is full of shit.

Here's something you might find interesting:

Analysis of Sinclair Lewis' It Can't Happen Here.

Web edition of It Can't Happen Here

David Neiwert's 7 part series of articles comparing classical fascism and American "movement conservatism".
Part 1: The Morphing of the Conservative Movement
Part 2: The Architecture of Fascism
Part 3: The Pseudo-Fascist Campaign
Part 4: The Apocalyptic One-Party State
Part 5: Warfare By Other Means
Part 6: Breaking Down the Barriers
Part 7 (Conclusion): It Can Happen Here

[Ouabache]

48. That web edition of the Lewis book is password protected, eurolefty

so how are we supposed to access it, anyway. Do you have a password?

[SOS]

36. Pretty good job?

Give us a break.
While reading Mr. Ray's "pretty good" blog, try to miss his entry on how John Kerry was involved in the Kennedy assasination.

:eyes:

[Maraya1969]

71. those were the same tricks that got him into power. Remind people

that he was a characteristic leader and fooled a country. And then ask when how Bush is going to br different.

Remember to ask questions that they can't explain because they defy logic.

[ET Awful]

5. I typically provide them with this essay, and they just stammer

and stutter:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm

[George_S]

14. Thanks. That's very good.

[dubya_dubya_III]

61. Though a Catholic, Hitler's politics relied on "Christianity"

Primarily it is instructive to note that the Wiemar Republic was in no way a Republic of Liberty. It's constitution allowed established religious parties and the "establishment of religion" by political parties dedicated to prospective religious fascism appeared to be perfectly legal under it's deeply flawed Constitution.

The notion of the Christian Coalition played forcefully in the Nazi parties electoral victory. Even though he was a Catholic he carefully distanced himself and his policies from his powerful allies in the church's Catholic Center Party and that sect itself, preferring to appeal to and exploit a broader coalition of support from like-minded "Christians". This presumably broadened his appeal to Lutherans who were also a major fact of religious life in Germany.

The Tory Anglican(Episcopal)Fascist MI6/CIA Mafia Bush regime has completely dispossessed any notion of the blessings of Republican Liberty. The useless, toothless unprincipled Wiemar 'democracies' they have established in Pre-Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq are really only a choice between inevitable religious fascist tyrannies. The ridiculous tyrannical conservative fascist notion of a Sunni Party or a Shiite Party provides a political system where the lauded 'democracy' is merely a 'pick your fascist tyranny' choice for voters.

Maybe we should have a Catholic Party or a Baptist Party or a Unitarian Party here in the states then eh?

Thanks for the wonderful essay

[Warpy]

6. Freepers say a lot of stupid things, mostly because

they read a title and think they've read the book, or read a headline and think they've read the whole article. In this case, if you're still bothering to talk to such idiots, remind them that the first people Hitler rounded up and executed were the communists. The second were the socialists. He'd just taken over a splinter party. It didn't mean he lived up to its name.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[bmichaelh]

9. Needs a history lesson

He does not understand anything of history.

The Nazis sent many Socialists and Communists to the concentration camps during their rule.

[WoodrowFan]

10. they came out of the Freikorp

The Nazi Party came out of the Freikorp, groups of right-wing vets of the World War who opposed liberal democracy. (sound familar??)

Freikorps
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Freikorps, which translates as "Free Corps," were paramilitary freebooter organizations that sprung up around Germany as soldiers returned in defeat from World War I. Many German veterans felt profoundly disconnected from civilian life and joined the Freikorps in search of stability within a military structure. Others, angry at their sudden, apparently inexplicable defeat, joined up in an effort to put down Communist uprisings or exact some form of revenge (see Dolchstosslegende).

Many future members and, indeed, leaders of the NSDAP (Nazi party) were members of the Freikorps, including Ernst Röhm, future head of the Sturmabteilung or SA, and Rudolf Höss, the future Kommandant of Auschwitz.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ComerPerro]

15. Take your bullshit talking points and lies somewhere else

Take the rise of Liberalism in the United States for example. It started with the temporary measures introduced by Franklin Delano Roosevelt to help pull Americans out of the Great Depression.
Gee, and I had always thought that progressive thought had been in place since the 1900s. Guess history was wrong.

Nazi's were Socialists. Liberals in America can't wait to implement the latest Socialist idea.
Here's the thing about Socialism. Its a transition step. To reach true communism or true fascism, socialism is necessary. This is what Hitler had in mind. Besides, have you heard Bush talk about Iraq? Notice he wants, for all Iraqis, free health care and education? Sounds awfully socialist...

Nazi's used the education system to indoctrinate the young. Liberals in America use our once-objective institutions of higher learning to force-feed Socialist and Communist ideas to a largely unwilling audience.
Here's the thing: Universities teach critical thinking skills. Critical thinking leads to analysis. Analysis leads to thinking for oneself. And that almost always leads to liberalism. Also, it is at our nations institutions of higher learning that students are exposed to other schools of thought and other cultures. Again, this usually leads to a liberal mindset.

Nazi's used propaganda and the media to obtain and retain power. 89% of Journalists in America admit that they prefer to vote for Liberals.
Are you talking about the same media that never questions the president, is overwhelmingly owned by conservatives, and outed Valarie Plame? That "liberal" media?

Nazi's over-regulated businesses until they simply took them over. Liberals in America have suffocated large and small businesses alike under a mountain of regulations and lawsuits.
Large corporations are much more likely to file lawsuits, be rewarded large settlements, and to have their suits dismissed as "frivolous". But, maybe you have a point. People like Ken Lay shouldn't be held accountable to the government. It is his right to manipulate the market and defraud investors all he wants, right?

Nazi's utilized slave labor in most facets of their economy. Liberals in America have established and maintained a dependent poverty class.
Meanwhile, conservatives constantly fight increases in minimum wage, deny basics like health care, take overtime away from working Americans, and oppose the idea of a living wage.

Nazi's used abortion whenever it suited their desires. Liberals in America insist upon abortion on demand, at any time and for any reason.
If conservatives in congress wanted abortion to be illegal, they could pass it. They need abortion because it is one of the most basic fringe issues that keeps the radical fundamentalists voting. Do you realize that under Bush, the number of abortions has gone up?

Nazi's persecuted everyone who disagreed with them. Liberals in America cannot debate issues logically, so they persecute those who disagree with them.
I guess that is why I have been called a traitor, a coward, an America-hater, and a godless communist because I disagreed with Bush. It must have been those liberals who keyed my car and broke my grille. They must have been offended by my Kerry/Edwards sticker.

Nazi's strove to set up a state religion, and jailed religious leaders who would not comply. Liberals in America ridicule and expunge to the best of their ability all things religious, yet speak from the pulpit in churches where compliant ministers submit to their morally vacant ideas.
Show me one example, just one, of liberals trying to set up a state religion. Seriously. I would love to see it. And, by the way, do you know why liberals ridicule religious figures who preach politics? Because it is illegal to do so. Its considered tax fraud.

Nazi's replaced the Bible with Mien Kampf. Liberals in America took Bibles out of the classroom long ago — about the same time that drug use, teen pregnancies, violent crime and sexually transmitted diseases started to skyrocket — and SAT scores plummeted.
First, we have no interest in banning the Bible. And if you want to teach the Bible, you can do so as soon as you start teaching Islam. And I want you to treat them both as literal fact. Teen pregnancy, violent crime and STDs have always been at about the same level. They just weren't seen or discussed in the fifties. Of course, your SAT scores argument is valid. I got a lousy score on mine because, thanks to liberal policies, I didn't know enough about Noah and Abraham. My SAT score was 398 Old Testament, 457 New Testament. Not good...

Nazi's killed 6 million people in concentration camps. Liberals in America are responsible for 38 million deaths since Roe v. Wade. At the same time, they have allowed 38 million immigrants to enter the United States.
So, your point is, it all balances out? Please. Spare me your bullshit rhetoric about the plight of the unborn. If you really gave a fuck about the unborn, you would try to help them once they are born.

Nazi's wanted to exterminate all of the Jews. Liberals in America who speak of Yasser Arafat as Israel's "partner in peace" know that Mr. Arafat has a map of Palestine in his office with Israel's borders erased.
Conservatives in the South want to exterminate all of the Blacks, Hispanics, and Catholics.

Nazi's did not care that many of the Jews they wanted to exterminate were also German citizens. Liberals in America drove tanks over our roads and killed our men, women and children in Waco, Texas.
Who would have thought that a standoff with the Federal Government would end so badly? And, maybe I am wrong, but weren't those people going to kill themselves anyway?

Nazi's confiscated all private property that they could lay their hands on. Liberals in America confiscate huge parcels of land every year under the guise of environmental necessity, and have limited the uses of private property for the same reason.
I guess your alternative would be to privatize National Parks, as the Bush administration intends to do. "Welcome to Wal-Mart, formerly Yellowstone National Park. If you want to see Old Faithful, we have a neat display by the tiles were it used to be. Its in the toy section, aisle 3."

Nazi's required all young people to "volunteer" in the Hitler Youth. Liberals in America have established AmeriCorps, where "volunteers" are paid; they also require school children to perform "volunteer" work before they can receive their diploma.
No one is required to volunteer in AmeriCorps. And, somehow I received a High School diploma without having to fulfill one volunteer requirement, seeing as there were none. Although, one of my friends did have to do volunteer work in order to graduate. He went to a private Catholic School.

Nazi's tolerated homosexuals and other sexual deviants who swore allegiance to Hitler. Liberals in America tolerate every morally bankrupt sexual persuasion on the face of the earth — as long as they vote for Liberals.
Meanwhile, Conservatives today won't even tolerate homosexuals who vote for Bush. So, I guess, in a way, Conservatives of today are worse than Nazis. Is that what you were trying to argue here?

Nazi's obeyed every order from Hitler, believing he could never be wrong. Liberals in America do not believe in the concept of right and wrong — only what "feels" good to each person.
Aren't conservatives the one with the mantra "My president, right or wrong"?

Nazi's practiced such outrageous deficit spending that it took a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread at the end of the war.
Apparently, deficits don't matter when you are at war. This is, of course, according to conservatives when they are forced to comment on Bush's half-a-trillion dollar a year deficit.

Nazi's practiced such outrageous deficit spending that it took a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread at the end of the war.
Wait until 2008, when you want to buy a gallon of gas.

Liberals in America have spent \\$6 trillion on unconstitutional social programs since FDR — and America just happens to be \\$6 trillion in debt.
Wow. You got me there. $6 trillion over seventy years. Jeeze. That is almost 1/6 of the rate that Bush piles on debt.

Nazi's would often beat up and expel party members who disagreed with the leadership. Liberals have virtually taken over one political party in America by demoting, persecuting and alienating all but the most Liberal members.
Now, I am not saying that you guys are Nazis or anything, but maybe you should talk to Jack Ryan of IL or former Senate Leader Trent Lott. If I remember right, It was Republicans who took those people down.

Nazi's erected a huge and cumbersome national health care system. Liberals in America have repeatedly proposed national health care bureaucracies with organization charts that look like the schematic diagram for an Intel computer chip.
So, in response, you guys offer no plan at all. Interesting strategy.

Nazi's kept records on everyone. Liberals in America have illegally kept over a thousand FBI files — and hundreds of thousands of other records — on private citizens.
I heard about that. The Nazis also passed laws making it legal to tap any phone for any reason, to search private property just on a hunch, and to detain people indefinitely without charging them. Or... wait... No, my bad. That was Bush and Ashcroft. Whoops.

Nazi's would re-write any law to suit their smallest whim. Liberals in America, particularly Liberal judges, change the U.S. Constitution at will by "finding penumbras", and ignore those who insist that such changes require an amendment.
Meanwhile, people like Rush "I've been divorced three times" Limbaugh want a law that will "protect the sanctity of marriage", and Bush supporter Britney Spears gets married in Vegas for, what, three hours?

Nazi's set national educational standards to ensure that everyone absorbed the requisite amount of propaganda. Liberals in America fight home schooling with a vengeance and continue to push for national education standards.
The Bush administration passes No Child Left Behind and raises education standards, but then fails to offer any funding to see that this program is enforced. This wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that Bush, while Governor of Texas, had schools that encouraged poor-performing students to drop out so that his education numbers look better. This is a man who sees no moral dilemma when it comes to executing the retarded.

Nazi's confiscated all guns in Germany under the guise of protecting the citizenry. Liberals in America are using the Nazi model to implement gun control in the United States.
Wyatt Earp, famed lawmaker of the Old West, kept the peace in Dodge City by implementing and enforcing gun control. Was he a Nazi too?

Nazi's required everyone to specify the amount of Jewish blood in their heritage before they could obtain identity papers. Liberals in America require everyone to specify their ethnic heritage on census forms, or pay a substantial fine.
The census? Please. That is probably your most pathetic argument, and that is saying a lot. You could have at least mentioned Affirmative Action or Equal Opportunity. Those forms were created in response to rampant racism among conservatives, and you do not have to fill them out. Its optional.

Nazi's referred to their political philosophy as The New Order. Liberals in America refer to their political philosophy as The New World Order.
Conservatives refer to their political philosophy as The Project For A New American Century.

Nazi's thought that the Third Reich would last for a thousand years. Liberals in America think that Socialism will rule the world forever, even though it has failed each and every time it has been tried.
And conservatives are actually stupid enough to believe in an "invisible hand" that guides the markets and keeps things in check. But,in reality, the "invisible hand" is attached to people like the Waltons, who are crushing competition, destroying small businesses, and sticking the "invisible hand" right up the country's proverbial ass.

[Kellanved]

17. Steaming pile of Bullshit

Nazi's were Socialists. Liberals in America can't wait to implement the latest Socialist idea.

Bullshit. By the time of Hitler's rise to power the Nazis were not a socialistic party, despite their name.


Nazi's used the education system to indoctrinate the young. Liberals in America use our once-objective institutions of higher learning to force-feed Socialist and Communist ideas to a largely unwilling audience.

Bullshit. Teaching analytical skills, thought expression and free thinking is the only way to ensure that something like that ever happens again.


Nazi's used propaganda and the media to obtain and retain power. 89% of Journalists in America admit that they prefer to vote for Liberals.

Bullshit. The first thing the Nazis did was to revoke the freedom of the press. Many liberal journalists were killed in the concentration camps.


Nazi's over-regulated businesses until they simply took them over. Liberals in America have suffocated large and small businesses alike under a mountain of regulations and lawsuits.


Bullshit. Nazis stole companies and gave them to rich Nazi supporters.


Nazi's utilized slave labor in most facets of their economy. Liberals in America have established and maintained a dependent poverty class.

Bullshit. But you know that.


Nazi's used abortion whenever it suited their desires. Liberals in America insist upon abortion on demand, at any time and for any reason.

Bullshit. Women's rights were almost completely removed by the Nazis.


Nazi's persecuted everyone who disagreed with them. Liberals in America cannot debate issues logically, so they persecute those who disagree with them.

Bullshit. See, I even have wasted my time to argue your quoted ramblings.


Nazi's strove to set up a state religion, and jailed religious leaders who would not comply. Liberals in America ridicule and expunge to the best of their ability all things religious, yet speak from the pulpit in churches where compliant ministers submit to their morally vacant ideas.

Bullshit. While it would be wrong to accuse certain Christian confessions in general, it can't be denied that most Nazi leaders came from extremely Christian families. The attacks against the few churchmen with a conscience were only possible because of the Churches' compliance.


Nazi's replaced the Bible with Mein Kampf. Liberals in America took Bibles out of the classroom long ago — about the same time that drug use, teen pregnancies, violent crime and sexually transmitted diseases started to skyrocket — and SAT scores plummeted.

Don't drag the bible into the dirt just to make a ridiculous comment. Faith has it's place and school isn't it. Also you might know that all those things are worse in areas with people unclear about the bible's place.


Nazi's killed 6 million people in concentration camps. Liberals in America are responsible for 38 million deaths since Roe v. Wade. At the same time, they have allowed 38 million immigrants to enter the United States.
Bullshit. I have a terrible truth to break to you: your ancestors were almost certainly immigrants.


Nazi's wanted to exterminate all of the Jews. Liberals in America who speak of Yasser Arafat as Israel's "partner in peace" know that Mr. Arafat has a map of Palestine in his office with Israel's borders erased.

Tell me if you have an idea about a workable peace plan that does neither involve further mass murder of civilians, nor talking. I have a hunch that many people will wish Arafat's return really soon.


Nazi's did not care that many of the Jews they wanted to exterminate were also German citizens. Liberals in America drove tanks over our roads and killed our men, women and children in Waco, Texas.

Bullshit. Holocaust comparisons are just tasteless. If you really want to dispute the state's right to use force, then you've lost me.


Nazi's confiscated all private property that they could lay their hands on. Liberals in America confiscate huge parcels of land every year under the guise of environmental necessity, and have limited the uses of private property for the same reason.

Bullshit. Neither did the Nazis do it because of "environmental necessity", nor do I see why "economic necessity" would be better. With the plans for new nuke power plants, many people will see their land taken away. Also, the lessened protection of National Parks will mean that many of the sacrifices were done in vain.


Nazi's required all young people to "volunteer" in the Hitler Youth. Liberals in America have established AmeriCorps, where "volunteers" are paid; they also require school children to perform "volunteer" work before they can receive their diploma.

Bullshit. The flag appeal and pledge of allegiance is far closer to the Nazis.


Nazi's tolerated homosexuals and other sexual deviants who swore allegiance to Hitler. Liberals in America tolerate every morally bankrupt sexual persuasion on the face of the earth — as long as they vote for Liberals.

Bullshit. Homosexuals were murdered in the concentration camps. The initial toleration did not last long.


Nazi's obeyed every order from Hitler, believing he could never be wrong. Liberals in America do not believe in the concept of right and wrong — only what "feels" good to each person.

For once it seems we have the same opinion about liberals. Yes, intelligent people, like liberals tend to be, to tend to see the world in shades of gray. Others, Germans during the Nazi era included, sometimes display a "what our leader says is good, right and white, everything else is wrong, black and bad" attitude.


Nazi's practiced such outrageous deficit spending that it took a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread at the end of the war.

Bullshit. The hyperinflation was a result of WW1 and happened before the Nazi's rise to power. The wartime military spending never came to bear, thanks to allied efforts. What does it have to do with Bush's record deficit?


Liberals in America have spent \\$6 trillion on unconstitutional social programs since FDR — and America just happens to be \\$6 trillion in debt.

Bullshit.


Nazi's would often beat up and expel party members who disagreed with the leadership. Liberals have virtually taken over one political party in America by demoting, persecuting and alienating all but the most Liberal members.

The GOP has been taken over? Nobody told me. Also there is a wrong word: your spell checker must have replaced "fundamental" with "liberal". Go figure.


Nazi's erected a huge and cumbersome national health care system. Liberals in America have repeatedly proposed national health care bureaucracies with organization charts that look like the schematic diagram for an Intel computer chip.

Bullshit. The Nazis were only interested in social systems improving the ability to fight wars. The social system was a relic from imperial Germany.


Nazi's kept records on everyone. Liberals in America have illegally kept over a thousand FBI files — and hundreds of thousands of other records — on private citizens.

Yup, like the nice immigration fingerprint/mugshot thing with no set file deletion date. Those things have a way of starting in times with Republican majorities in all branches of the Government.


Nazi's would re-write any law to suit their smallest whim. Liberals in America, particularly Liberal judges, change the U.S. Constitution at will by "finding penumbras", and ignore those who insist that such changes require an amendment.

Bullshit. Just because a dickhead needs an election platform, that doesn't mean that there is a legal necessity.


Nazi's set national educational standards to ensure that everyone absorbed the requisite amount of propaganda. Liberals in America fight home schooling with a vengeance and continue to push for national education standards.

Nazi's breathed oxygen. Liberal do that too. Your point?


Nazi's confiscated all guns in Germany under the guise of protecting the citizenry. Liberals in America are using the Nazi model to implement gun control in the United States.

Bullshit. Relaxation of gun laws and registry combined with the right to own a gun were a major part in the Nazi's party platform. They did relax the Weimar Republic's strict laws by no small margin, making lynchings possible.


Nazi's required everyone to specify the amount of Jewish blood in their heritage before they could obtain identity papers. Liberals in America require everyone to specify their ethnic heritage on census forms, or pay a substantial fine.

Bullshit. This is getting tedious.


Nazi's referred to their political philosophy as The New Order. Liberals in America refer to their political philosophy as The New World Order.

Nazis did talk English? Wow, I'll never stop learning here. IS Homeland Security aware of that fact?


Nazi's thought that the Third Reich would last for a thousand years. Liberals in America think that Socialism will rule the world forever, even though it has failed each and every time it has been tried.

Socialism is a word misused by the former Eastern Bloc. Social Democracy means that certain principles of solidarity, as opposed to charity, are incorporated in the state's constitutional makeup. It does not include to force people to do anything against their will, nor does it show any signs of failing. (nor has any US Government truly tried to establish such a thing).

[unpossibles]

35. even more BS...

"Liberals in America refer to their political philosophy as The New World Order. "

uh, didn't Papa Bush* come up with that one?

[chat_noir]

66. 'Toward a New World Order'

On September 11, 1990 at 9:09 PM, President George Herbert Walker Bush spoke before a joint session of Congress, regarding the Persian Gulf War. Among other topics, he stated that the war presented an opportunity for a "New World Order" to emerge.

'Toward a New World Order'
A transcript of former President
George Herbert Walker Bush's
address to a joint session
of Congress and the nation

snip

We stand today at a unique and extraordinary moment. The crisis in the Persian Gulf, as grave as it is, also offers a rare opportunity to move toward an historic period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times, our fifth objective -- a new world order -- can emerge: a new era -- freer from the threat of terror, stronger in the pursuit of justice, and more secure in the quest for peace. An era in which the nations of the world, East and West, North and South, can prosper and live in harmony. A hundred generations have searched for this elusive path to peace, while a thousand wars raged across the span of human endeavor. Today that new world is struggling to be born, a world quite different from the one we've known. A world where the rule of law supplants the rule of the jungle. A world in which nations recognize the shared responsibility for freedom and justice. A world where the strong respect the rights of the weak. This is the vision that I shared with President Gorbachev in Helsinki. He and other leaders from Europe, the Gulf, and around the world understand that how we manage this crisis today could shape the future for generations to come.

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/war/bushsr.htm

[name not needed]

18. Piss off freeper

[Donkeyboy75]

19. It's not enough to read something.

If you have any capacity for critical thinking, you'll be able to argue effectively that what you've read is bullshit.

Of course, if you don't have any critical thinking ability, you'll fit in very well with 51% of the American voting population.

[Mr_Spock]

22. Keep it up Freepers

We need the motivation.

[President Jesus]

13. There is seriously no end to their retardation.

I'm just glad they all own guns.

[Mr_Spock]

21. Right Wing Nut Job = Freeper = Nazi

Face it baby - you guys are Nazi's.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cats Against Frist]

23. It's so much worse than most people know

The series of articles on movement conservatism and fascism is a MUST READ. I learned a ton of stuff from it -- some of which, I'll recount here.

But we can point this stuff out all day, and the freepers won't get it, because they HAVE been propagandized.

They haven't just re-framed the debate -- they're trying to decenter language and peddle bad logic. They have a totalitarian mindset -- we all do, to some degree, just some of us (conservatives), more than others.

The totalitarian mindset relies on splitting, projecting and scapegoating. Therefore, a false binary or false dilemma, that, say, a fat, oxycontin-addicited radio host can drill into their heads, day after day, for ten years -- becomes truth.

It involves language manipulation to the highest degree -- not just psychological code words, but the actual de-centering of language and the words we use to describe the world around us -- mostly by raising logical fallacy to an artform.

Perhaps their most ingenious tactic is to attack "the timing, delivery or vehicle" of the message. Not an ad-hominem attack, exactly, but something that I like to call "rules of discourse" fallacy. Not only has it kept the opposition from arguing a well-crafted and logical point, but keeps them from expressing anger or emotion, or calling out the right-wing totalitarians for what they are.

For instance -- Remember the moveon.org contest, where one person sent in an advertisement that compared Bush to Hitler? What they did was FREAK OUT, and claim "rules of discourse," -- how "uncouth" of our opponents to say something like that. It's exactly how they turned the Mary Cheney exercise into national news "he's a bad man for saying something like that." They don't like political messages at the Wellstone funeral? "How dare they turn it into a political event???" They don't like us calling them out on "sensitive policy? = "how DARE they politicize it."

They used the "rules of discourse" fallacy to shut down the emotions of both Howard Dean and Al Gore -- calling them "wild eyed" or "crazy."

ON THE OTHER HAND:

The day before the election, I lost two hours of my life listening to Rush Limbaugh, and he said: "OH MY GOD CAN YOU BELIEVE IT????? THE LIBERALS AND OSAMA COMPLETELY AGREE!!!!"

This is one of their top surrogates, played on radio stations across the country.

Attacking F 9-11 is another thing that they used. Even if it was, as all things are, slightly framed from a subjective point of view -- on a 10-point scale, it was about a "2" compared to how the Republicans frame and put forth arguments.

And THEN, from then on out -- any time a Democrat made any claims about President Bush -- "SEE -- THE DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN TAKEN OVER BY THE MICHAEL MOORE WING OF THE PARTY."

The next target? "Old Media" -- their "new" term for the attempt to dislodge the "objective" press and fill that hole with their right-wing propaganda.

We notice that the networks are being taken over by "right-wing talking points," -- and this is EXPRESSLY what they're trying to do. I believe that the Rather thing was a Rove plant -- attempted to discredit one of their most vehement opponents: CBS news.

Look for more of this. And look for worse things. This is what scares the fuck out of me, about these guys.

[Gut Check]

24. Quote from Hermann Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall....

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.

"This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country." (emphasis added)

~Hermann Goering, Hitler's Reich-Marshall, speaking at the Nuremberg Trials following WWII


more on Hermann Goering:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWgoring.htm
http://www.2worldwar2.com/hermann-goering.htm

[lady raven]

25. The Nazis also called themselves "Christians"

But that didn't make it true.

[amber dog democrat]

26. Freepers who think that way don't know much about history

Authoritarian governmemts come in many different flavors.

[Extremist]

27. Im sorry to say it...

...but the nazi's were on the left. They exercized complete and total control over business, created a welfare state, and increased taxation by an absurd degree. I'm not here to flame, im just pointing out the facts.

[Kire]

29. You sound very polite...

...and I appreciate it. But, I was wondering if you could provide a source to back your post up. Preferrably from a scholarly source, or one from the National Socialist party itself, not one from NewsMax, or FreeRepublic or Fox News, etc.

[catbert836]

34. Corporations and Nazis were great freinds

In no way did the Nazis create a welfare state. Rather, they lived the high life along with rich owners of corporations by taxing the working class to what you call "an absurd degree" and they exersized no control over corporations. A famous quote on fascism by Benito Mussolini, who knew whereof he spoke:
"Fascism should more properly be called "corporatism" because it is the merger between state and corporate power".

[Liberty213]

41. ....

Taxing to "an absurd degree" is a very socialist trait, as is the fact that the government has their hands in all corporations and religious organizations so they can control what people say and do. These things are almost identical in fascism and socialism.

[NickB79]

42. You have it backwards

"the government has their hands in all corporations and religious organizations so they can control what people say and do"

The corporations were the ones running the governments and religious organizations, not vise versa.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

28. It's not a new phenomenon.

They obviously don't know the history of Nazism, or what socialism means. The socialism that National Socialism invokes is a special case, a very right-wing special case.

[ck4829]

30. The German Nazis were Extreme-Rightists (Reactionary)

Yes, they promoted 'change'.

This 'change' however was a change back to the old days of being ruled by a Dictator.

It went from:
Kaiser (Dictatorship)- Republic -to being led by a Dictator once again

The Nazis have also killed Communists (Really, would a 'Leftist' party kill other Leftists?)

[BlueDog2u]

31. Sure they were

That's why they murdered Jews, Homosexuals and communists. Its obvious.

[rickrok66]

32. I like these guys

Today, they equate current liberalism with Nazism.

Tomorrow, we will hear remarks about all the Democratic homosexual socialists who live in 'Jew' York City (insert redneck laughter).

[catbert836]

33. "National Socialist Workers Party"

In name only. Huge, workers-rights-violating companies often had cozy relationships with the 3rd Reich... the name Socialist was pivked up on by Nazis to gain votes from the working class when they first started out.

[Roachman]

39. In Name Only...

Just as the Republicans don't believe in a republic where people are truly represented by their congresspersons or president or Supreme Court.

Those who represent the few (Nazis and Republicans) can't call themselves, "The 1% Party" or "Genocide-R-Us" or "We-Hate-Homos-and-Darkies-and-Leftists" but of course those names make more sense for either party.

[carl_pwccaman]

54. 'national' yes, 'socialist' yes

Nazi's were national and socialist, yes...

'National' doesn't mean 'all' or 'egalitarian', and some nations do have second class citizens, slaves, etc.

So a national socialist may in fact be national or nationalist, it just depends on what kind of nation you mean.

A national socialist in America would be a bad citizen of the constitutional nation the USA, as would a stalinist.

They are national/nationalist by definition, albeit a different sort of nation/nationalist than others who could be described that way.

You can't redefine 'national' or 'nationalist' to simply mean one kind of thing, to ignore their brand of nationalism as being nationalistic. Let's talk reality not rhetoric.

Similarly with the word socialist, you can't get out of the issue by redefinition. Not all forms of socialism are good or identical, even though they can be described as 'socialistic' in the sense that individual rights are secondary and that private economic agendas are subservient to the power of the collective ruler(s) of the state.

[carl_pwccaman]

55. What about when workers in a republic are majority fascist?

It is possible for a majority of workers to be bigots, and for them to vote in a republic, for fascists, stalinists, etc.

Look at Hamas...

[dubya_dubya_III]

64. Sure - the term 'socialist' is also an adjective

You can be a National (ethnic) 'socialist' a Patriotic 'socialist, a Racial 'socialist' an Imperial 'socialist' a Communal 'socialist' a Religious 'socialist' a Merchant 'socialist' or a Corporate 'socialist' or a Labor 'socialist' or any of a hundred other fill in the blank-types of 'socialists'.

Most of these socialist groups have short-form (dropped the social) names of their own however, like nationalist patriot, racist, imperialist, communist, theocratist, monarchist, mercantilist, corporatist, unionist etc.

The political definition of 'socialism' in it's own however, could more accurately be short-named 'communitist' except for that terms unsavory similarity and confusion with the inherently fascist imperial Communist 'religion' of Marxism.

Other than Imperialism and Monarchism (racist-eugenic mafia warlords are fascist by definition), what elevates most of these moderate socialist special interest groups to the level of 'fascism' is the totalitarian seizure of power by that interest followed by exclusive, monolithic imposition of their dogmatic agenda in law. Generally only religious socialism, or communal socialism with a personality cult arranged atop either can achieve a transition to fascism.

The broad, general Liberal and Conservative socialisms by which advanced Liberal Democratic political systems function are more expressive of positive and negative philosophical polarities.

Conservatism, or Conservative socialism is a generally negative neo-imperialist dogma, supportive of the status quo, it often associates itself with the repressive restrictive and prohibitive aspects of populist religious socialism, favors greed disguised as 'meritocracy', noble mercantile monopolism, elite cabals and ends without regard to means. It is intimately associated with exploitation, privilege and bloodthirsty militarism, opposes wealth redistribution, social justice, corporate responsibility, environmental protection, and any and all types of regulation. It is ironically an antisocial socialist movement.

Liberalism, or Liberal socialism (aka Liberal-Democratism or Republican-Liberalism) by contrast, is a sweet, generous, considerate, peaceful, positive blessing to all, needing no dogmatic agenda, it's simply both counter-conservatist and counter-fascist.

'socialism' genuinely has little whatsoever to do with property, used in such a context it is a actually a misnomer.

[Payne]

38. Such irony

The Freepers who would have no problem with performing a genocide on Muslims are acusing us of nazism.:eyes:

[bluedawg12]

40. Compared to freepers they are

but I thought that the socialist in the NAZI name meant that the state under the NAZI party- i.e. a fascist state- would provide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program

"The National Socialist Program, also referred to as the 25-point program, was developed to formulate the party policies of, first, the Austrian German Workers Party (or DAP) and was copied later by Adolf Hitler's Nazi party. It is an amalgamation of demands that would be typically associated with various different (and antagonistic) political trends. It was first developed in Vienna, at a German Workers Party congress, and was brought to Munich by Rudolf Jung, who was expelled from Czechoslovakia. (1) Josef Pfitzner, a Sudetenland German Nazi author, wrote that "the synthesis of the two great dynamic powers of the century, of the socialist and national idea..."

[mwooldri]

43. So since Freepers are right wing they're worse than Nazis? (n/t)

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty48197]

46. they've been saying it for years

Even though Hitler rounded up all the Jews, union leaders, homosexuals, etc. he's still a liberal. Yeah right. Republicans are psychotic. They actually believe the ridiculous things they say.

[carl_pwccaman]

53. But "liberal" is different than "Left"

I.e., not all liberals are socialist. Some are, but not all.

Now, not all socialists supported Hitler or Stalin, but some in fact did. Nazism called itself 'national socialism'. Historically, some non-fascist socialists, stopped supporting non-nationalist or other forms of socialism, in favor of nationalist socialism (or very hyped up religious or racist forms of socialism that were authoritarian, or all of the above)... Fascists like Mussolini (father of Fascism) started off as part of the 'left', as journalists or what have you, part of a movement that was anti-nationalistic and against the world war, but then split with such movements and attacked them for being anti-war, anti-nation, etc.

As a type of socialist (granted, a rabidly national and racist sort of socialist), Nazi's are seen as 'left' by those who define 'left' and 'right' in terms of how socialist something is. The 'right' being non-socialist, nation based, more about individual rights, less about big government.

The left isn't just liberals. Stalinists are supposed to be left. Stalinists are our enemies, yet they are lumped together with us. Stalinists don't look much different than Fascists, do they? Maoists, too.

[psriter]

47. originally...

originally, the nazis became powrrful during the great depression, when most governments used a heavily capitalist system, and the opposition promised economic stability and a better job market. In the USA, the Democratic party did this by impoving infrastructure, which was fairly successful. The German Nazis improved infrastructure as well, and created jobs in military and military sullpies factories, and their economy improved. There was more feeling of nationalism in Germany, and that feeling made an improved military more palatable, because the feeling was germany should go fight a war, and obviously win because they're the best country. To those who view economic intervention as leftism, the Nazis would be on the left.

Also, anyone who cares what the Nazi's economic policies were is an extremely horrible person, because of the Nazis' obvious racism and genocide.

[tinfoil tiaras]

51. I recieved this completely asinine foward...

from my own damn father!

My name is Mary Jo Kopechne.

I would have been 65 years of age this year.

Read about me and my killer below:

When Sen. Ted Kennedy was merely just another Democrat bloating on
Capitol Hill on behalf of liberal causes, it was perhaps excusable to
ignore his deplorable past.

But now that he's become a leading Republican attack dog, positioning
himself as Washington's leading arbiter of truth and integrity, the days
for such indulgence are now over.

It's time for the GOP to stand up and remind America why this chief
spokesman had to abandon his own presidential bid in 1980 - time to say
the words "Mary Jo Kopechne" out loud.

As is often the case, Republicans have deluded themselves into thinking
that most Americans already know the story of how this "Conscience of
the Democratic Party" left Miss Kopechne behind to die in the waters
underneath the Edgartown Bridge in July 1969, after a night of drinking
and partying with the young blonde campaign worker. But most Americans
un der 40 have never heard that story, or details of how Kennedy swam to
safety, then tried to get his cousin Joe Garghan to say he was behind
the wheel.

Those young voters don't know how Miss Kopechne, trapped inside
Kennedy's Oldsmobile, gasped for air until she finally died, while the
Democrats' leading Iraq war critic rushed back to his compound to
formulate the best alibi he could think of.

Neither does Generation X know how Kennedy was thrown out of Harvard on
his ear 15 years earlier -- for paying a fellow student to take his
Spanish final. Or why the US Army denied him a commission because he
cheated on tests.

As they listen to the Democrats' "Liberal Lion" accuse President Bush
of "telling lie after lie after lie" to get America to go to war in
Iraq, young voters don't know about that notorious 1991 Easter weekend
in Palm Beach when Uncle Teddy rounded up his nephews for a night on the
town, an evening that ended with one of them credibly accused of rape.

It's time for Republicans to state unabashedly that they will no longer
"go along with the gag" when it comes to Uncle Ted's rants about
deception and moral turpitude inside the Bush White House.

And if the Republicans don't, let's do it ourselves by passing this
forgotten disgrace around the Internet to wake up memories of what a
fraud and fake Teddy really is.

The Democratic Party should be ashamed to have the national disgrace
from Massachusetts as their spokesman.

Erm...like "Our President" George Dubya DOESNT have blood on his hands? The blood of countless solders and Iraqi civilians.

And WHY do those Right-Wingers blame ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING on the Democrats, when the Democrats are the MINORITY party in ALL branches of government??

Well, like I responded to him, at least it wasn't an "See what happens at Planned Parenthood everyday!" foward.... :wtf:

Great job trying to recrute me into Bush Youth dad! :D

[kwolf68]

52. The final salvo

this argument can be refuted with some simple points of FACT

-Socialists opposed Hitler
-Socialists were put into concentration camps

If Hitler was a socialist, why was he turning them into soap? This is such a joke. They want us to be Commies and Fascists all at once. We are both extreme left AND extreme right and they wiggle right on out of the idea they CAN BE extreme at all...since we are the only extremists.

[SlipperySlope]

56. Nazi's don't fit into a simple box...

Fascists and Nazis don't fit well into a simple left/right analysis.

Results of this sort can arise whenever extremists without checks on their power are in control.

[dubya_dubya_III]

59. Sample of all Hitlers stump speeches - YOU DECIDE haha

Compounded by the fact that the Anglican(Episcopal here) Crusader Fascist MI6-CIA Mafia trained "al Quaeda" sponsored "Daniel Chapter 8 Show" on Sept 11th was notoriously similar to burning the Reichstag....


"Today Christians rule Germany! I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the true Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess..." - (typical of most of) *The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939


Remind anyone of Rash (may his chains rest lightly) Limp-Bow or a certain Presidential tool of the British American military industrial complex?


PSSST! I hear freepers are pinning their mid term hopes on National Insecurity once again....

[dubya_dubya_III]

60. Socialism vs Communal-ism

Americans have been very poorly informed about the meaning of socialism mostly stemming from the misplaced rhetoric of the anti-Godless-communist propaganda of the Churchill/Gehlen/Dulles/McCarthy Fascist era, when Republican Liberty was once again replaced with Tory Conservative Anglican(Episcopal) Imperial Fascist Tyranny (the creation of the unconstitutional, criminal MI6/CIA Christian Fascist Skull and Bones Mafia)



From the dawn of history mankind was ruled by Tribal Mafia Warlords. It was the natural extension of tribalism. Relatives and loyal servants of the mafia were awarded title and monopolies and in time raised their own militias to serve the Godfather-Overlord.

All was well and the tribal Chieftain was the absolute dictator of his realm save for concessions necessary to exact tribute(payola) from his lords.

Suddenly however, folklore and a yearning for justice in the absolute gave rise to dogmas of religious socialism, where morality (including the morality of the warlords actions) could be tested against the 'proselytism du jour' and public opposition or derision could become problematic to the Warlord.

Most of the 'kings' responded to these public-socialist threats by killing and replacing the proselytizer with one more amenable to his aims, but eventually when the accumulative interpretations of the mostly polytheistic religious socialist dogmas became a giant endless headache, the heads of many deities rolled, nonetheless, newly appointed proselytizers would generally update the dogma to continue breathing in peace. (hence a lot of contradictions in those few socialist dogmas that have survived)

Unfortunately the earliest arrival of a monotheistic solution (ancient Egypt) was little better since it simply concentrated a paralyzed power base that challenged that of any and all political or military leadership.

The only solution was that the warlord be elevated to a "Monarch", becoming a "living" religious socialist "God" who simply could not be challenged or paraphrased by any interpreter. Religious socialism was thus transformed into an "I am the dogma" form of Imperial Fascism becoming most evident in Rome. What distinguished this sort of imperially (military-state) 'established' pseudo-religious 'socialism' from it's purely private religious socialist roots was that it had been transformed into an intolerant, totalitarian form of state dogmatism known as (Religious) Fascism. It was thus beyond mere Warlord Monarchism with your odd religious or moral socialists here and there or a purely independent religious socialist movement grown into Theocratic Fascism.

The Tribal Mafia Warlord Henry VIII established his Godly personal Anglican(Episcopal) Fascism over England in order to establish, condone and institutionalize his right to live as a filthy arrogant whore master. This rather mercenary adaptaion of Christianity was made far more aggressive bigoted and Apocalyptic than it's parent, mostly due to the Crusading compensations of trying to outdo the zealotry of it's more established Roman Catholic parent.

Be very clear humans are 'social' beings, thus any organized group of humans with similar enumerable goals and interests (dogma) are a 'socialist' entity. Thus, a Board of Directors are a 'socialist group' bent on profits for themselves and shareholders, and likewise, a shareholders meeting is a 'socialist' gathering to see to it the Directors don't rob them blind or sell the company to their sisters for a dime.

Communalism or Communism (shorter) is distinctly specific form of property-less Imperial Fascism. It is still a dogmatic 'socialist' idea but it is designed specifically as a dogmatic fascist (totalitarian) form of imperial tyranny (Marx had no concept of Republican Liberty, he lived under Anglican Fascist tyranny in England, thus developed a fascist noble imperial state for his communal property economics experiment)

The end of Imperial Fascist Tyranny on this planet was accomplished by our forefathers who rebelled against the persecutions and exploitations of Tory Conservative Anglican Fascism (name not welcome in America anymore, it's disguised as 'Episcopal' here now) to create a new "Republic" (representative publican ism means same thing as representative democracy) strictly governed by the anointed "Paper Monarch" (constitution alone) containing the enumerated specific blessings of Individual Liberty, where no religious socialist dogma was ever to be allowed to become established in any political form or fashion (fascism) and all Individuals were free not follow or to follow whatever crazy personal moral dogma they wanted to.

Around the world today the 'political' definition of 'socialism' generally refers to the policies of a supportive and caring community of individuals and the taxpayer supported entitlements that the favor of such attitudes require, but it's broader and 'generic', literal meaning is far, far wider in scope and application.

Religious fascist 'Conservatives' (our so-called 'republicans') generally hate political 'socialism' because it takes away from the opportunities for expansion of the power and influence of their particular religious cult, not necessarily because they want to starve the less fortunate, they simply prefer to buy them.

[Leber tsohG]

67. juss wondering....

didnt the Nazi's call for the killing of Liberals during world war 2????

i swear i read this somewhere, wonder if someone could clarify this for me

[mwooldri]

68. Freepers might be correct about this...

... but that is only if you assume that the political
"line" is actually a circle arranged like thus:

        Communist  ***  Fascist/Nazi 
            ***           ***
          *                  *
         *                    *
     Liberal              Conservative
         *                    *
          *                  *
            ***           ***
                Centrists

However if one understands history you will understand why
Naziism is extreme right.  Hitler was at war with Stalin. 
Stalin was a communist, and we usually agree that this is
extreme left.  However Hitler allied with Mussolini, who was a
fascist, and it is usually agreed upon that fascism is extreme
right wing.  Hitler wouldn't have allied with an extreme left
winger, now. 

Mark.

[Odin2005]

69. Thats BS, Fascism is Right-Wing Authoritarian

Up-Down Axis is Authoritarian-Libertarian
Left-Right Axis is Economic Left-Right.

[chat_noir]

70. Mussolini: "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism...

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power."

[Bosso 63]

72. Sex

It always seemed to me, that the further you move to the "right", the more freaked out people are about sex and gender issues. Klaus Theweleit wrote a book called "Male Fantasies" that looked at the rise of the Nazi Germany and views of masculinity. Nazis and Conservatives really, really, really want to show the world that they are men.

[pbrower2a]

109. re: Sex (Reproduction, and Fascism)

Fascism prefers that people be concerned about sex and reproduction but ignorant about the human side of sex. They seem to like it hard and brutal. They might be sentimental -- but without tenderness.

Does anyone notice that the 45-degree straightarm Nazi salute (and the related White Power salute of the KKK, also a fascist group) resemble erections? The fascination with firearms also suggests sex (firing a gun is an ejaculation), and the desire to overpower others is tantamount to rape.

The early Nazis were very much an all-male club; contrast Bolshevism. How many female participants were there at the Beer Hall Putsch? Fascism of any kind has no use for feminism of any kind because feminism asserts the right of a woman to say no. Fascism, with its desire to create copious progeny to justify the expansion of the State where it isn't welcome, doesn't allow Master Race women to say no to the Master Race. "Subhumans" are of course given the "freedom" to have all the abortions that they want and may be subjected to sterilization, if not murder. Homosexuality was seen as an evil if it thwarted the procreation of the Master Race. German women got medals for having large numbers of babies to be the future cannon fodder of the Reich and pioneers of stolen lands.

The Nazis made much of genealogy -- but not so much for showing the relatedness of humanity but instead who was Jewish, who was Aryan, and who was really Aryan (as in having German or acceptably-similar ancestors back 140 years or so).

[kwolf68]

73. They are just ignorant

Anyone who knows the truth about Nazism will know Nazism is right-wing, Nationalistic, racist...

There is no "ideology" behind it from the standpoint of "limited government" or "big govermnet".

Hitler used the apparatus of "egalitarian" policies to gain favor, but quickly aligned his government with the bourgeois.


Always ask these question to them

-If Hitler was on the left, then why was there a Socialist Party in Germany at the time?

-Why didn't Hitler just align with Socialists?

-Why were the Socialists among Hitler's biggest critics?

-Why was the Socialist Party banned by Hitler?

-Why were Socialists sent to work camps?


There was nothing socialist about Hitler...the National Socialist Party was about NATIONALISM.

[citizen snips]

74. Somebody should tell them to study the political spectrum.

Because Fascism is RW Authoritarianism.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[melody]

77. Idiots mistaking the map for the land itself

Someone isn't a fascist because he calls himself that. Someone is a fascist if they act in ways that are fascist. You can
be a socialist fascist ... a Republican fascist ... etc, etc. Fire isn't fire because we call it that, it's fire because it
burns.

These jerks are led around by the nose by Limbaugh and his ilk because said jerks aren't smart enough to make those distinctions.
Those are the people they play to.

[fat dad]

78. Maybe to the left of them? (nm)

nm

[wickedcity]

79. Meh...

The whole left-right spectrum seems arbitrary to me, nothing more than a tool for politicians to smear each other as "extreme left" or "extreme right". It means absolutely nothing. I really don't care whether or not they think he was left-wing...they think I a lot of things. I would have to agree with them on one issue tough; Hitler was, indisputably, a socialist. I know someone's going to flame for this, but under Hitler control the government completely seized the means of the production. He maintained the illusion of private control, but it was the government that dictated what they could produce, how much, and what the products were used for. Not to mention the strict price and wage controls implemented in '36. Remember, Stalin killed socialists too. The left wing is such a broad spectrum of a ideas, and there are so many ideologies in it that it's entirely possible for two of them to be radically opposed to each other. Claiming otherwise is no different than claiming liberals are communists because they both despise republicans.

"Really, would a 'Leftist' party kill other Leftists?"

Stalin killed members of his own party.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

81. Your post shows a distinct lack of understanding

of the relationship between economy and political ideology in pre-war Europe. Hitler was not a socialist. Nazi Germany operated under a system of national capitalism where demands from the Nazi state in areas of military spending had a huge impact on the economy, being the main motor of economic growth.

Nazi Germany was not a command economy and the state did not interfere in the private sector unless it was to dispossess racial and political enemies, or if it was part of the war effort. You are confusing the concept of mixed economy with socialism. The concept of mixed economy was practiced by states from all along the political spectrum, from right-wing Christian Democrats, to Social Democrats, to social conserative Paternal Autocracies, and ultimately Fascist states. However the manner in which these economies operated were very different, but the main similarity was that the state played a major rôle in the economy.

[wickedcity]

83. In name only

All of the significant powers of ownership were possessed by the government, ownership of the means of production remained in private hands in name only. Any action undertaken by the business owners themselves was taken only if given an approving nod of the head from the state. The state still reserved the authority to override any decision made by the business owners if it was in the state's best interest.

[Quantess]

91. I can tell you are mistaken

Nothing wrong with that.

[struggle4progress]

84. The Coca-Cola Company Under the Nazis

... Coke was not above moving behind the scenes and handing out bribes when their policy of limited greed failed to calm down xenophobic nazi-officials. Thus was the case when Hermann Goering in 1936 introduced a Four-Year Plan, which restricted imports to a bare minimum in order to make Germany self-sufficient and ready for war. When Coke's main lawyer could not convince the authorities that Coca-Cola was a German business which deserved government support, the company announced that it would from now on produce all of the concentrate's elements, with the exception of Merchandise No.5 and 7X, within Germany. When even this show of goodwill did not suffice to sway the government into granting an import exemption, the company turned to a frantic pulling of strings behind the scenes, which seems to have included a bribe for Goering. Coca-Cola gained the needed import license and saved itself from impending doom.

Coke's readiness to strike deals points to the second pillar of Coke's survival strategy which had a lot to do with the leadership of Max Keith, "the quintessential Coca-Cola man and Nazi-collaborator." Simply put, his strategy was to please the Nazis whenever possible and through whatever means necessary.

An abundance of examples shows how Coke's advertising supported the Third Reich. Hans Dieter Schaefer reports, for instance, that after the aggressive news broadcast by the Reichsrundfunk, silly advertising jingles propagating the evangelium of refreshment were next. Coke ads deliberately sought the close contact to the men in power. This meant that when the cover of a magazine sported a picture of the Fuehrer, chances were good that a Coke advertisement would grace the back of that cover. Even when visitors streamed into the Sportpalast to listen to one of Dr. Goebbels' infamous speeches, they had to pass by a large billboard urging them to drink "Coca-Cola eiskalt." ...

Behind the main table, a huge banner proclaimed, in German, `Coca-Cola is the world-famous trademark for the unique product of the Coca-Cola GmbH.' Directly below, three gigantic swastikas stood out, black on red. At the main table, Max Keith sat surrounded by his deputies, another swastika draped in front of him ...

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~class/coke/coke2.html

[wickedcity]

85. You have successfully proved...

...that the German government was in bed with business, which is incompatible with capitalism, which demands a "Separation of business and state". It seems to me that the German government was exerting a huge amount of control over the company, which was only relaxed when it benefited the government (or rather, one individual within the government)

[struggle4progress]

88. "G"Government .. in bed with business .. is incompatible with capitalism"?

Perhaps we live on different planets. Evidence in my world suggests capitalism has traditionally involved substantial government intervention: modern capitalism seems to be supported by an enormous structure of law and armament, one proceeding from government, the other in the hands of government. Nor is this a recent development: nineteenth century military campaigns (to cite but one example) took the American West from its earlier inhabitants while Congress handed much of the looted land directly to the railroad barons.

[wickedcity]

90. Capitalism...

Is based on voluntary contractual agreement. It holds that government only economic purpose is essentially to enforce those contractual agreement. Massive government intervention is incompatible with capitalism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. We call that fascism,

the propper marriage of the state and corporations, and perhaps you should read Mussolini to understand this

And both natioanl socialism and Fasicsm were RIGHT WING ideologies... and are still right wing ideologies

Any basic coursework in Political Science will teach you why

Oh and to add, what Ricardo and other theorists of Capitalism defined as such (including Adamn Smith) do not, I repeat, DO NOT exist today either. We are closer to a fascist state than you are willing to believe and I am only looking at the economy

[struggle4progress]

87. German Business and the Third Reich

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/biztoc.html

Be sure to check out: List of the Major Companies Involved in the Concentration Camps

A number of the names are still familiar today: ultimately, ownership and control of the companies remained with the owners.

[wickedcity]

92. The fact...

That they still exist means nothing. Business was private in name only, all significant powers of ownership remained with the government.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. No they didn't

but live in that delusion

[IDARNG_Loki]

82. My input

As a conservative my mean-side would want to say "Yes", but I know it's not entirely true. Hitler and the Nazi's are extremists, period. Extremists, whether it be Left or Right, are a danger to the world. The leaders may claim to be socialist, communist, christian, or whatever, but at a certain point most dictators have forgotton or thrown away the party ideas and gone off on a tangent to satisfy their own selfish desires.

[wickedcity]

86. Extremism...

...is relative to the popular belief at the time. Democrats and republicans today would have been considered extremists at the time of the founding fathers. Certain ideologies taken to their extreme are harmful, but extremism in and of itself is not.

[Boogyman_]

93. Nazis

I remember The Nazis playing at Woodstock back in '69. Hendrix was still better but they were groovy too. :bounce:

[Rantnrave]

101. Too much dope smokin'

The was no such group playing at the '69 Woodstock. Could you be talking about "The Nazis Woodstock "? Totally unrelated to the concert.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0025913/

[galileo3000]

94. Don't take the bait, rise above it.

[MiserableFailure]

97. Haha- no, Nazis are right-wing, check out Stormfront

Those guys love right-wingers over there. They're anti-immigration, anti-welfare, anti-government

[babbage0111]

98. Compared to some Freepers I know, Nazi's are to the left.

[NewYorkJ]

99. Freepers don't know history

although there's a grain of truth to the claim. The Nazis had a deep rift in the party early on by those who thought it was better for their party to align with the Communists. The fascists won over and the communist leaders were slaughtered when Hitler gained power.

[TeenageDemocrat]

100. Typical...

Why are Conservatives always calling someone who disagrees with them Nazis? Those bastards are hypocrites, they automatically hate anyone who disagrees with them. I read this one thread where they were talking about beating the hell out of Vegetarians because they are Vegetarains. I bet they want to put us Liberals in Prison Camps, and I bet they would laugh at us suffering.

Conservatives are so bent on their own views that they don't see the truth behind all the propaganda that Faux and Rush Limbaugh is feeding them. Maybe one day they'll see the truth, and that's a big maybe.

[PDenton]

102. Nazi party was originally somewhat socialist

It combined a hodge-podge of ideologies and was made of disgruntled Germans WWI veterans. At its core was a resentment against non-Germans and Jews, finance capitalism, and Russian Communism. In 1930, the socialist-leaning elements lead by Gregor Strasser were purged from the party violently. Strasser tried to reconcile nationalism and socialism, which Hitler was oppossed to.

The Nazi party that invaded Poland and created the death camps was socialist in name only. The ideology was definitely right wing and hostile to political or economic liberalism, and also hostile to market capitalism. Businesses ultimately answered to the state, and could be appropriated for state use at any time. Not to needlessly smear anybody, but the Nazis were like a much more extreme version version of Pat Buchanan more than they were like conservative libertarians like Reagan or William F Buckley.

[Crap_in_a_Hat]

103. Some Michael Savage fan called us "socialist fascist liberals"

Kind of like "you're such a gay heterosexual" or "you're such an emaciated fatass". My response was "No using things as insults unless you have any idea what they mean".

[gdy52150]

104. Bush Family Nazi Ties

The right wing idiots have been claiming the Nazis were socialists for years because they have to distance themselves from their Nazi ties. It was the Republican party that paid for the Nazi broadcasts during the 30s from NY Times Square. It was the Republican party that employed known Nazis in their congressional campaigns. It was the Republican party that accepted Nazi money in the 1940 election and it was Republican Herbert Hoover that conspired with top Nazis in Berlin to unseat Roosevelt in the 1840s. Moreover the Bush family has supported the Nazi cause for four generations starting with Herbert Walker.

Check these fact and others in the Nazi Hydra In America---now in print and available through amazon dot com. A description of the book follows.

Description: A piercing study of the tenacious roots of American fascism in our plutocracy, from robber baron days to Reichstag fire to Homeland Security. The Nazi Hydra in America delves into America’s darkest taboo---our elite backing of fascism. Our cherished tableau---America the champion of liberties defending the globe against totalitarian hordes is overturned. In 700 fascinating pages the Nazi Hydra documents how US financiers created Hitler and his war machine, launched a putsch against FDR and recouped Nazi assets to lay the foundations of today’s NSA and CIA. While Eisenhower’s troops defeated the armies of fascism on the European battlefields, the Nazi Hydra documents how the war against fascism was lost on the home front.

Review: This is a valuable history of the relationship between big business in the United States and European fascism, before, during, and after the second World War. The story is shocking and sobering and deserves to be widely read. -- Howard Zinn "Author of "People's History of the United States""

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

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[sofa king]

106. Heh. Just like the Nazis themselves. Suckers.

The "socialist" part of the NSDAP was kept in the name, according to William Schirer, specifically to lure in real socialists.

The future Nazi Party was founded in 1919 by a guy named Anton Drexler, who in some respects appears to have actually had some socialist-like theories. Hitler muscled out Drexler by 1923, but had the good grace not to have him murdered as he did several other early, socialist-leaning Nazis in The Night of the Long Knives.

In the meantime, Hitler cozied up to big business and watched Mussolini's pro-business fascist reign with deep interest. Just like George Bush in 2000, Hitler flew for free thanks to his corporate pals during the election of 1933. Both Hitler and Bush made certain to portray themselves as more moderate than they actually were during the election season.

The extreme right wing of America has long attempted to paint the Nazis as socialists because anyone who looks closely at the Nazis cannot help but compare the Nazis to today's Republican Party. They have in common "enhanced interrogation", murder, jingoism, intimidation, militarism, international aggression, radio-delivered propaganda, packing the courts with right-wingers and defying them when expedient, using hatred toward social out-groups to inspire voters, Fuhrerprinzip and the Bush/Cheney bullshit about a "unitary" Executive Branch, the seduction of right-wing authoritarians in order to provide their respective parties with an unthinking, eternally loyal political base, all the way down to sporting lapel pins to show off their patriotism.

Both parties started wars of aggression based upon false pretenses, and lost those wars in part because their corrupt policies enraged the local populations of the places they occupied. Both parties manipulated the economies and governments of their subject states to personally enrich party members. Both parties capitalized on acts of terrorism to consolidate their powers, then interfered with the subsequent investigations. Both parties had total contempt for civil rights. Both parties owed their success to the exploitation of racism and homophobia. Both parties contained a disproportionate number of sexual deviants (and both parties considered homosexuality to be sexually deviant). Both parties relied heavily upon the use of disinformation to silence their critics. Neither party totally lost support, even when it was obvious that they didn't actually share the interests of their supporters.

So, if the Freepers out there are calling the Nazis socialists, it's quite fair to call the Freepers socialists, too. Because the difference between a Nazi and a Freeper comes down to whether the flags they wave are red, white and black, or red, white and blue.

[Angleae]

107. By their theory, North Korea is a democracy.

"Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea". There is also East Germany (German Democratic Republic). Both must be bastions of democracy.

[Xenotime]

108. They should know evil when they see it.