India demands 195,000 H-1B VISAs through WTO

[Robert Oak]

IN A move that has significance for Indian professionals seeking to work in the US, the government has made a formal proposal to the WTO demanding that the yearly quota of H1B visas be increased to 1,95,000 from the current ceiling of 65,000.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1151031.cms

By going through the WTO, India by-passes US congress as well as US immigration law, only the US executive branch has any say in this and then US immigration policy can be seen as a "barrier to trade".

This is deadly for high paying tech jobs in the US and has implications for any job that cannot be offshore outsourced to be "insourced" instead.

Much more information on the use of H-1B to replace Americans with cheaper foreign labor available in the signature URLs.

[Coastie for Truth]

1. Does India give H1B Visas to Americans?

I love Indian food (especially gee based confections) and nann bread, I watch the Bollywood Channel, I know basic Hindi (Yes, No, Hello, Goodbye, "Namastay") -- plus I am a doctoral level engineer.

I think it would be "neat" to go to Bangalore for a year.

[Robert Oak]

4. Few things

1. you will drop your earnings 10x

2. I have not heard of any luck of Americans going to India
unless it's to assist somehow in technology knowledge transfer
or getting more of US industry in India and so forth. i.e. straight
up R&D I have not heard of one example of an American getting
a job wrangled away from an Indian in India, even at the PhD level.

Try it and please post back here. It would be interesting to see what happens but I believe Indians are nationalistic while Americans are not when it comes to work and supporting other Americans.

[Coastie for Truth]

7. My cousin is over there as a Java apprentice

(Associates Degree in CS) - I don't what he makes - but he loves the culture.

[unhappycamper]

2. We should tell the WTO to go fuck themselves.

I really don't think the WTO should have the right to tell to give away more jobs.

[AllyCat]

3. AIIUC...the H1-B regs allow these people to work on US soil for

companies that DO NOT have to provide, worker rights, regular paychecks, safety measures, and benefits.

I read an article several years ago on H1-B in the south on the plantations/large farms. These people wouldn't get paid until the end of their 6 month "tour" and if anything happened in that time (usually did just before their time was up), they were sent back to Mexico with no pay. They work with dangerous pesticides and herbicides and are not provided personal protective equipment (you know, such pesky things as rubber gloves, safety glasses, and respirators).

Workers were expected to work every day, were not provided food or heat, and lived in plywood shacks on the grounds, frequently 6 guys to a little hut. Many were sick from the chemicals but if they complained, they would be sent back home with none of the money for which they had worked all those long hours and days.

[Robert Oak]

5. that is a different VISA, H-2B, seasonal worker VISA

H-1B is *supposed* to be for professional workers, minimum Bachelors degree, but 60% of India H-1B workers credentials are forged. You're talking about a different VISA.

Then an India Masters degree, MSc is equal to a US Bachelors degree (BS) in terms of education level (comes into to study in American universities as an accredited BS degree)..
yet Americans with Masters degrees from America are being replaced
with Indians with inferior skills and education level...
the reason is it's all about money and control.

The corporation operating in the United States controlled the H-1B VISA status, plus H-1Bs are paid 20% to 50% less than their US counterpart.

If a corporation doesn't like what the H-1B VISA holder is doing
they can just fire them and thus that person has to return to their home country.

A side note is (and now this is even more evident) is India has used
the H-1B VISA system to their comparative advantage as a method to
move the US high tech jobs overseas, long term. They can come here,
get established in the US system, get training (it takes about 3 years
for an engineer on the job to really become skilled), and then
return to India, establish offshore outsourcing jobs and have
"inroads" into US companies to convince them to move the engineering and computer science jobs overseas.

[AllyCat]

6. Thanks for the clarification

It had been many years since I read that article and didn't realize there was a different system for "white collar".

It's all kind of the same though, isn't it?

[Robert Oak]

8. Sure is and ends the artificial separation

Artificial separation of labor.

For years white collar has looked down it's nose at blue collar
with the great lie that if one became educated one was exempt from
labor arbitrage, layoffs and mistreatment.

White and Blue need to unite for it's ultimately the great attack
on the American economy and the American middle class.

[ramapo]

9. Your side note is the most important

Being in IT, I've watched the effect that the H-1B program has had on what was once a great way to earn a living. American workers have been all but replaced in many instances by current and former H1 holders.

We have done a great job providing Indian companies with the foundation necessary to move tens of thousands of our jobs offshore which they are doing with great success.

[Robert Oak]

10. posted a diary on dailykos

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/6/28/163414/447

I could use some help.

They don't "get it" over there.

[sadiesworld]

23. You more than held your own.

I'm sorry you had to put up with a couple of nasty shills.

[cprise]

27. H-1B Equals Immigrant? NO.

I see why they don't get it. They're pretty naive.

[2Design]

11. This is so the remaining us employees can train their replacements

and to allow india people to stay in usa and bring the rest of their friends to take what is left

I find getting a degree in it is impossible because you can't understand the people who teach - all the scholarships have gone to them too

we really don't seem to care about our people anymore

[EVDebs]

15. This enables CEOs to pay themselves the difference on the H1B

salary versus what a US worker would have been paid. "Globalization" is a ripoff of the US middle and lower classes. My job only required a HS education yet H1Bs workers were imported from India and I was required to train them, in exchange for my silence and an additional three months pay...

[glasalle]

12. L-1 visas are even worse

H1-B visas are bad news, but the L-1 visa is even worse.Indian companies like Tata, Infosys, Wipro establish beach head offices here and then bring in unlimited numbers of employees on L-1 visas to do contract work at US companies.

L-1s are good for up to 7 years, there is no requirement to pay prevailing wages and they are very easy to get (H1-B visas are supposed to pay prevailing rate, but in reality, don't. ) The L-1 visa was meant to be used for intra-company transfers - to bring in someone who has a specialized knowledge of the company business and processes(not just tech skills). For example, my company brought in a Brit from our English office to lead a project involving a system he knew well. The Indian firms have found a loophole and are bringing in unlimited numbers of workers. They compete against us and in many cases, American workers are forced to train these people as their replacements.

At my office, for example, almost half our IT dept is from Infosys. They lead projects and send a lot of work to their offshore co-workers. This facilitates the offshoring process. If they weren't here, offshoring would not work very well, if at all.

Across from me, is a database administrator on contract from Wipro, also on L-1. We could have hired an American, but Wipro routinely outbids American contract firms, as they have cheap labor.
This DBA believes that he and his friends are here because we don't have enough skilled Americans to fill these positions.

BTW, Hillary Clinton welcomed Tata to Buffalo, N.Y. claiming it brought jobs to the city. In reality, these jobs are going to Tata employees, not Americans. She continues to champion these Indian offshore companies. I'm totally pissed at her.

I don't blame the Indian workers, they are mostly nice people and I would do the same if I was in their position. I place the blame firmly on our lawmakers, who have bought the lie, spread by US corporations, that they can't find skilled American workers. What they are really saying, as usual, is that they can't find workers at the price they want to pay. There are lots of laid off IT workers who would love to be working right now.

[Robert Oak]

13. excellent post

and it's not the workers, they are just out to make some bucks.

It is US policy and multinational corporations exploiting workers
worldwide.

[cprise]

26. As a laid-off tech worker, I agree with your POV.

I've worked for over 8 years in IT and software engineering and seen several different immigration patterns in the workplace. I've worked with them and my experience fits with your position.

The H1-Bs are mostly a scam. We're talking about people who do not know basic programming terminology or methodology, and become highly dependant on the domestic workers. One person that I worked with had never saved an email attachment before. I don't hold aa grude against them, as I understand their predicament.

I DO hold a grudge against H1-B peddling execs and politicians! They are responsible for creating terrible conditions in the job market that contravene basic human rights, and for the outright demise of computer science in domestic academia.

OTOH the greencard workers were usually quite competant and a pleasure to work with. Most were on the path to immigration and they were making a stake in the quality of life here. But no CEO can wage war against the middle class with relatively empowered workers.

[EVDebs]

16. Yessiree. If republicans were smart, they'd keep this info handy

for use during the '08 election. In the meantime we need to get the word out on exactly how DOL acts in complicity with companies to shaft US workers who are NOT supposed to be displaced in this visa process.

[indigo]

24. Hilary isn't alone

http://www.usinpac.com/NewsContent.asp?CONTENT_ID=122&SEC_ID=14

Check out all of the (D)s in the list. Here are the House members:

http://www.usinpac.com/list_of_representatives.asp?CONTENT_ID=122&SEC_ID=14

Listed accomplishment of USINPAC:

"Led the effort to make sure that a bill proposed by Congressman Tom Tancredo to kill the H-1B visa program never becomes law by passage through the US House of Representatives"

[EVDebs]

14. DOL's Form 9035 is prima facie evidence of the fraud !

Item #3 on the DOL's Form 9035 for the H1B visa in plain English discloses that fraud and the investigation of fraud in the H1B visa program is DOL's policy to TOLERATE such fraud. How else to describe the blatant loopholes ?

"#3. A number of statutory requirements and authorities under the INA, as amended by the American Competitiveness and Workforce Improvement Act of 1998, sunset on October 1, 2003. The specific program changes that occurred included:

A reduction in the cap on the number of available H-1B visas from 195,000 to 65,000 per fiscal year;
The elimination of the Recruitment and Hiring and the Displacement and Secondary Displacement attestations that previously applied to "H-1B dependent" employers and to employers found to have committed a willful violation or misrepresentation of a material fact on the application;
The elimination of authority granted to DOL to investigate H-1B employers if they have "specific, credible evidence" that a violation has occurred; and
The elimination of the $1,000 fee that is required to be paid by employers of H-1B nonimmigrants to support low-income scholarships and job training programs for workers.
The recruitment and displacement attestations noted above, and the instructions relating to them, were previously outlined in Subsections 1 and 2 of Section F. Due to the possibility that these attestations may be reenacted by the Congress, the Department has temporarily blanked out these portions of the application and instructions.

The previous edition of this application form, displaying an OMB Expiration Date in the upper-right-hand corner of 31 AUG 2003, should no longer be submitted by employers seeking to hire H-1B nonimmigrants."

http://workforcesecurity.doleta.gov/foreign/preh1bform.asp

This means the DOL is complicit in the frauds being committed against the US in implementing this visa program. What should be happening is a class action claim against those perpetrating this fraud using the False Claims Act, since those companies should be fined and perjury actions enforced. If this WAS taking place you'd see a huge reduction in abuse of this visa program.

Also, please read how the rubric of 20,000 jobs per each $1 billion in exports shows that an estimated 12 million jobs have been offshored, not the 300,000 currently being floated to the public in 'many commentries':

"A common rule of thumb, said Prestowitz, is that every billion dollars of exports creates about 20,000 jobs in the U.S. economy. Using those numbers, and given the nation's current trade deficit, running about $600 billion a year, "outsourcing can be said to have moved about 12 million U.S. jobs offshore. Even if the number is half that, it is quite substantial and far above that 300,000 figure currently being cited in many commentaries."

http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/columns/schrag/

(note, you can use www.bugmenot.com to get access id/password also try
http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/columns/schrag/story/13148327p-13992231c.html )

[ramapo]

17. Outsourcing has destroyed American IT opportunities

The number of jobs sent offshore is far in excess of the few hundred thousand number quoted by the offshore apologists. Few if any companies do large-scale, in-house application development any longer. Much of this work is contracted offshore at hourly rates in the teens. If the work isn't sent offshore then it is sent offsite where it is done by contract workers (L1s & H1s).

Many jobs have been lost, far more were simply not created (at least not in the United States).

The lifespan of application programming as a viable career concentration turned out to be less than 20 years (1980-2000). There were, of course, opportunities prior to 1980 especially for mainframe programmers. Such is the evolution of work. Look what happened to keypunch operators. But at least that was caused by our own advances in technology.

The demise of programming as a career has been caused by our "representatives" serving their true constituants, corporate business. Immigration has been used as a method for controlling the American worker and rewarding business. It has little to do with providing opportunity for foreign workers.

Yet American workers have for the most part tolerated their Congress' actions that have kept immigration levels high. Incredibly it is just another one of those issues that gain little traction in the public's consciousness.

[EVDebs]

18. My old job wasn't even technical as the H1B visa specifies but was

outsourced anyway since it was a 'backoffice' job Indians wanted. The job was a mortgage loan servicing job with about a high school equivalence training needed. By law the companies are supposed to NOT displace US workers. This is happening anyway. They don't inform the newly laid off US workers of their rights under the DOL either, or that the job has to be advertised for ... The frauds are just overwhelming and the DOL's complicity is stomach-turning.

But look on the bright side, unless the new Indians come to the US and intend on becoming citizens, the wage losses will become self-correcting in the marketplace. Once citizens, they too will join the fight for higher wages, better educations for their kids, and a way to pay the taxes this will all bring about.

A fair wage for all...or start fining the companies that are abusing the visa process. Take your pick or fight for both. That's what it is coming down to.

[ramapo]

19. I fear the genie is out of the bottle

No American worker was suppossed to be displaced and this was only a short-term program. Now companies say they need this program in order to compete, blah, blah, blah.

The actual H1 worker accepts considerably less wage as compared to an American worker. To be honest, American workers (especially young ones) were quite greedy demanding sometimes absurd compensation for little experience. There are often a few layers in placing an H1, each with their own markup. The end cost to the client is still less than carrying a salaried worker.

Many of the Indian workers come here with some significant experience under their belts and willing to work for considerably lower wages. I truly believe the program should be phased out over the next few years but it will never happen.

I think immigration is required in order to keep the population growing which is the only thing propping up the economy...more housing, etc.

[Robert Oak]

20. attorneys

It's no joke and on dailykos, seemingly anything with the keywords
"VISA" or "immigration" in the posts get spammed and you get insulted.

I'm having real problems over there when the facts are overwhelming
on how the H-1B is being abused for labor arbitrage.

[EVDebs]

21. But economists like Robert Samuelson of Newsweek now see it's bad

The Hard Truth of Immigration: No society has a boundless capacity to accept newcomers, especially when many of them are poor or unskilled workers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8100266/site/newsweek/

Even with H1Bs and L1s as the article states,

"To make immigration succeed, we need (paradoxically) to control immigration."

I agree. Right now, with visa and border abuses, the USA needs a 'breather' to allow the economy to assimilate the excesses that have been going on for what seems like the last decade.

[glasalle]

22. displacing US workers

"By law the companies are supposed to NOT displace US workers"

This may not be quite correct, depending on what you mean by it.
According to the law, a company has to testify that it can't find
a qualified American to do the job. In reality, at least in IT, they will specify an impossible set of skills that no one would have. Then they bring in a foreigner who has the one skill they are looking for, someone who would not be hired if they were American. No one checks up on the employer and no one really checks to see if they are paying the required prevailing wage.

So maybe this is what you mean by the displacement of US workers. I believe that there is nothing in the law that says that American workers can't be displaced per se. My employer could fire me tomorrow and sponsor an H1-B to replace me the next week.

[Robert Oak]

25. Alert! WTO blows off studies

and claims that outsourcing doesn't affect employment.

The BS in this is neck higt...it's amazing, they just outright <b>lie</b>,
blow off some very detailed studies...obviously to get their
agenda that people are tradable commodities and thus they should control immigration (H-1B VISA).

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jul52005/business163932200574.asp