India proposes global work permit

[Robert Oak]

India plans to propose that workers' movement in the services sector be monitored by global work permits not covered under the current immigration or tourist visa quotas in the US and EU.

The new global work permit would be issued to the employer, not the employee, and would be related to the work that the workers are expected to do in the host country. Moreover, the employer would guarantee the return of the visa holders back to the country of origin.

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_07_14/us/india_propose_global_wp.htm

This is bad. Why? Because:

1. unlimited movement of workers basically increases supply, makes
careers temporary and lowers wages.

2. the "permit" is under the control of multinational corporations, not the government or the employee, which means multinationals can circumvent national workers rights laws as well as by-pass national immigration laws.

3. moves out of jurisdiction of the nation-state the ability to set it's own immigration policy

4. enables multinational corporations to move workers where they want and when they want. (remind you of any sort of mass shipping of people from Africa to the US say 1600, 1700 time frame?)

[barbaraann]

1. OMG. People will just become an inventory item,

and some of us will end up in the liquidation store or the trash heap.

[Robert Oak]

5. yup, in fact in WTO, GATS mode 4

services, i.e. <b>PEOPLE</b> are listed as a tradable commodity...

ok, now liberals MUST, I repeat MUST stop reacting to anything involving immigration policy and the many problems and use as a method to undercut workers wages...as "white supremist racist" and realize
the the true motivation to "trade people" on a global scale This issue is driven by multinational corporations as well as multinational corporate governments who only gain (short term).

I hope liberals start getting educated and realizing this really
is about workers rights, justice and maintaining a middle class
(in any nation) and has nothing to do with racism.

So far, especially on dailykos.com one gets attacked for mentioning
anything to do with immigration and I am determined to put this out
there on liberal sites (for I am a liberal for one) and get liberals
to take this issue on.

Right now the only ones trying to do anything about it are conservative Republicans...now they are not completely right and I think liberals need to get in this mix to keep em honest to the moral values of the nation.

But liberals need to stop using the propaganda of the "race card"
per the behest of multitnational corporations on this issue and realize and stop the attempts to destroy any workers rights plus depress income for workers on a global scale.

[Maple]

2. But Dems have previously complained

that companies are moveable, but employees are not, so they lose their jobs.

[Robert Oak]

3. this isn't the answer

Because what they do and we already see this in the case of India,
is they get someone willing to work 20-50% less than the 1st world
country counterpart and replace that person with cheap labor.

3rd world countries are willing to do this because even 1000 worth of savings made in the US equals a years worth of savings back in their home country.

But, it also circumvents nation-states controlling their immigration...
another element giving increasing power to multinational corporations
and away from nation-states and the people.

I don't know about you, but I sure do not want "corporate culture"
to start becoming my societies governing laws.

[Maple]

4. but it's a start

and what you consider 'cheap labor' means they are well off in their home country. It's enabled countries to boom, and middle-classes to form.

Let the govt do it then, rather than companies if it worries you so much.

As far as I'm concerned people should be able to travel and move anywhere.

One world, one race, no borders.

[Robert Oak]

6. one world of elites and slaves

You know Maple, you constantly post on my posts with your dogma that really doesn't make any economic, labor of even social justice sense.

You just don't get it.

So, with that, maybe if your job or your husbands job is offshore outsourced or you are replacing with someone willing to work at 50% of your salary and even if you say you will take a 50% pay cut, you are ordered to train your replacement or not receive 2 weeks worth of severance pay...
maybe after you have lost your home, your savings, your career and cannot find anything but a Wal-Mart clerk job...
you might start figuring it out.

Just like a drowning person, sacrificing yourself does nothing to save the world and that is basically the underlying theme of your posts to mine.

[Maple]

7. Nonsense. An equal world

Protectionism and walls are what you're promoting, and it doesn't work.

Lifetime education and several different jobs in a lifetime are now the norm.

The rest of the world has been doing all this, while Americans have been off jumping at shadows. Or watching 'reality' tv or something.

No one else is having a problem with it. Temporary disruptions, nothing more.

You simply mistook globalization for Americanization, and surprise, surprise, it doesn't work that way when 6 billion other people on the planet are involved.

[Robert Oak]

9. sorry you are wrong

Please read just even one economics text on labor economics or even
one macro economics text and get back to us. You do not even seem to understand that educated professionals, who are in life long learning,
are the ones at risk and who are being replaced by cheaper labor...
that is engineers, computer scientists, lawyers, even Doctors.

You really need to educate yourself instead of listening to some sort of propaganda statements released by multinational corporations.

This is about 6 billion people, creation of a global middle class and you just do not get it.

It would be very nice that instead of spamming my posts with drivel
you actually bothered to educate yourself on the facts of labor economics and even slave economies and how they are formed.

In the interim, I'm not going to bother with these posts...it's like arguing with a pharmaceutical company on how
Vioxx or whatever doesn't increase the risk of hearts attacks but helps people.

[Maple]

11. Ahhh Robert

Economics is my field, and I understand it very well.

Yes, it's exactly about 6 billion people and the creation of a middle class...it's just not about protecting your job in particular.

Hide your head all you want...this is reality I'm afraid.

And sooner or later you'll have to face that.

[Robert Oak]

15. I sincerely doubt that

I can tell by your posts.

Let's take a quiz, any one with even undergrad econ 101/102 should be able to answer these in 20 minutes or less.

1. Who is David Ricardo and what are the underlying assumptions on his theory?

2. Who is Paul Samuelson and what did he recently say that contradicted Gregory Mankiw and what were his variables in his equations to reach this theoretical conclusion?

3. Who is Ralph Gomory, what topic did he analyze and what assumptions did he use in his mathematical models and what are the limitations of his model?

4. How do you calculate productivity? Give both equations.

5. What is the law of supply and demand?

6. What are the macro economic effects of taxation, both corporate and personal?

7. What is Quantity theory and who developed it?

8. What is the formula for a Tariff? Under what theoretical conditions are there arguments for use of?

9. What is the Iron law and who developed it?

10. What are the 4 common methods unions use to increase wages?

[Village Idiot]

8. Fifty PERCENT??????

Not friggin' likely. Not even CLOSE!!!


Senior Indian programmers I have worked with over the past two years have made between $8000 and $12000 USD per year...so it's more like around FIFTEEN PERCENT, rather than fifty...

[Robert Oak]

10. I tend to go conservative in quoting statistics

and from studies the range on H-1B is 20% to 70% less than the US citizen/legal resident counterpart. but this is H-1B Visa (insourcing, replacing Americans) versus offshore outsourcing where Indian engineers are making about what you are quoting.

Are you working with half the engineering team being offshore outsourced?

I am seeing posts on craigslist for some pretty serious programming skills @ 9.50/hr, locally, in cities where the cost of living index
is some of the highest in the nation, like LA.

[dcfirefighter]

12. I'm with maple

Protectionism isn't the answer. In fact, I'd bet that most of those countries need employment than we do. Regardless, there could be more than enough work to go around, but we tax labor and productivity, and not speculation and idleness.

I see your pain, but don't feel it. Complaining about a man who becomes educated and finds a job paying him a salary that can keep him and his family out of poverty, hardly seems like a liberal idea. The movement of labor doesn't increase the supply, it moves it. The world desperately needs a middle class in these developing countries.

Back to our tax problem, get rid of these taxes on productivity, labor, and industry, and our labor becomes both cheaper, and more valuable. Developing middle classes overseas increases global demand for products and services, while improving global stability and security.

[Maple]

13. Thank you

Yes, it does seem that we tax all the wrong things. We punish all the things we want.

And we expect other countries to be content to remain poor forever, so we don't have to do anything differently than we've ever done.

[Robert Oak]

14. Nobody claimed "protectionism"

actually a policy to stop this is quite complex.

BTW: I happen to not be in pain, but there a lot of people
who will see your post as callous toward the plight of your "supposed" countrymen. Where is your sense of solidarity? Do you think India doesn't have a strategic trade agenda plus a sense of nationality? Well, if you had lived there you would know that isn't the case.

Back to solutions: They are complex and one thing that could do quite a bit is universal health care, others are workers rights, labor laws, environmental laws in international trade agreements.

Are you aware that a fire happened in Thailand worst that the Triangle fire in NYC that started the American labor movement? Do you think anything changed in Thailand as the result of garment workers being needlessly burned to death? Well, yes, the organizers of those workers were jailed and killed, like the ones in Indonesia and Guatemala. The factory operates exactly as before with people's lives in danger to earn wages that can only buy minimal subsistence living.

Also, you are fundamentally incorrect if you believe unlimited worker movement does not increase supply, it does. You must understand
macro-economics is on a national scale and labor economics is per nation-state. To mix a low GDP/PPI nation-state with a 1st world one
basically can create economic collapse on a global scale. In layman's terms, it does not "pull up" the 3rd world nation, it "pulls down" the 1st world nation. Only Germany successfully integrated disparities in GNP's (East and West). It took 10 years and they did quite a bit of PROTECTIONISM(regulation, workers rights, social safety nets) in order to achieve it.

Do you believe that our current trade policies are actually creating a global middle class? Guess again. We have a series of studies showing how standards of living and wages in 3rd world countries has DECREASED due to trade. There are horror stories of basically slave labor throughout Asia. It's the opposite of your assumption...

which is why I keep saying, please education yourself. The assumptions here do not correlation with labor economic theory, any economic theory or even empirical results to imply by having unlimited worker movement one can raise up a middle class.

There is quite a bit of economic theory of slaves/serfs that show unlimited worker movement is a very good way to destroy a collective bargaining situation and create a slave economy.

It is having the OPPOSITE effect and I wish people would stop posting spam when they have no educational background and are spreading misinformation.

There is no one "complaining" about a man or WOMAN who becomes educated...that is not what is going on here. We are complaining for that "Man" has actually had a strong decrease in wages due to the manipulation of national immigration policies and international trade agreements.

[fedsron2us]

16. Would the employer also be prepared to pay compensation

if any of its 'global' employees subsequently turned out to be engaged in terrorist activities ? After the London bombings some of the EU countries such as France have actually reimposed border controls with each other. Somehow I do not think they are going to be adopting this idea in a hurry.