National Survey Shows Continuing Decline In Science & Engineering PhDs

[Township75]

I wasn't sure if this story should go here our in Environment/Science..but since our ability to develop the best technology in the world drives our economy, I decided on puttin it here...Enjoy

National Survey Reveals Continuing Decline In Science And Engineering Doctoral Degrees

ARLINGTON, Va. -- Same story, different year, some might say of new data from the National Science Foundation (NSF) that shows almost across-the-board reductions in the numbers of doctoral science and engineering (S&E) degrees earned in 2002. The 24,500 degrees nationwide represent the lowest number since 1993.

A nationwide survey reports the number of research doctoral degrees in all fields earned by students attending U.S. universities declined by 2 percent last year, dipping under 40,000, which marks the first time in nine years doctorates fell below that threshold. Overall, 413 universities across the United States and Puerto Rico awarded 39,955 doctorates.

The new data are reported in the 2002 Survey of Earned Doctorates (SED), an annual census of research doctorate recipients conducted by the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago under a contract with NSF's Division of Science Resources Statistics (SRS). The full report is available at: http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/issues/docdata.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/12/031205052337.htm

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. Gee, I never saw this coming...

:eyes:

[greymattermom]

2. Ph.D.s

I believe this is an immigration issue. About 20-30% of science and engineering students are foreign, mainly Chinese. It has become very difficult for these students to obtain visas. I bet the same number or more American students are enrolled in Ph.D. programs. I teach in a Ph.D. program where students are paid 20K/year, soon to be raised to 25K to be students. Better than unemployment.

[Township75]

3. This is true.

I am close (hopefully) to getting my PhD in engineering, and my department has seen a decline in foreign students.

However, the same can be said of US students in the department. It has dropped every year, and hasn't improved even with the poor economy.

[cosmicaug]

6. I was wondering about that.

More immigration difficulties, fewer Ph.D.'s. You'll know we're in deep trouble when it becomes something other than an immigration issue (where people are actually not wanting to come here). We're probably a long, long ways off from that yet but if we evolve into a third world country it can't be ruled out.

[Nay]

4. And you can expect this to continue, since

no one in their right minds will go to school for 8-12 years, incur massive debt, only to find their highly-paid jobs shipped overseas or handed to foreign recruits who work for a lot less $$.

Does no one remember the big shakeout of engineers in the 70's? I had many grade-school friends whose engineer dads were out of work forever after that huge layoff. You'd think that this country would make an investment (i.e., make sure jobs were always available) in people who have made a huge investment of time, money and intellect, but . . .GUESS NOT. And things are much worse now than they were then, in the sense that back then, most of the country thought it was an outrage that well-educated and valuable people were being "thrown away" like that. Not like now, where it's "...train for another job, dude!" As if it hadn't already been a monumental effort to have done what they already did.

[Code_Name_D]

5. Yes, it will get worse.

Especualy as tuishen increses. Now, the student loan payments now take up too large of a chunk of even the genruse compensation for high end technitions.

[kalian]

7. Yup...

and this is why I don't believe in the "higher" educational systems.
Americans have to pay through the nose to get into college and
foreigners from poorer countries get grants and scholarships out
the wazoo.

[Leados]

11. Seems like I might be moving out of the US after I get my doctorate

if the US corporations won't pay anything... With the shortage of scientists/engineers, it seems as if they'll start to pay more for graduates, although I doubt this.

[mhr]

8. You Are Right, I can Go Back To Graduate School For Free In Texas

This due to a state program for Texas veterans.

But the question is why and for what. I already have two college degress and cannot find work.

So why put all that effort into another uncertain future at my age. Who would hire me at an even advanced age after completion?

The sad part is that I enjoy going to school and usually do well.

Regretably, our economy does ingender confidence that the benefit is worth the investment in time and effort.

[ramapo]

9. Are there jobs available in the sciences?

I'm in the IT consulting business and over the years I've seen many, many resumes of people with advanced degress in the sciences who could not find work in their field.

[bobbieinok]

10. The number of graduates in physics PhD programs has been

declining for at least 20 years.

For a while, programs were helped by foreign students, particularly from China.

The Chinese students often posed several problems.

....Their English was often not adequate for TA positions, especially at large state schools with students having a variety of regional accents.

....They then were made research assistants, a position most grad students would prefer.

....Many American grad students felt they had unfair competition, since many of the Chinese students had already taken many of the grad courses (just in a different language).

....So there was tension between the American and foreign grad students.

In many engineering departments the majority of the grad students were foreign.

This also led to problems.

....Many professors thought the foreign students didn't have enough 'hands-on' experience to be good engineers.

....Many Americans could get a high-paying job with just a BS. Why should they go for a PhD when it often might not significantly affect their earning potential?

Two other problems.....

....Where are the future physics and engineering professors going to come from?

....State university faculty and administrators cannot publicly discuss the problems for fear that the legislature will cut funding (and thus positions) because they don't want 'to tax the citizens of our fair state to pay for the education of a bunch of foreigners.'