Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

How to build an economical mono-rail.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Economy Donate to DU
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 09:22 PM
Original message
How to build an economical mono-rail.
I have been tinkering with a few over the top technological ideas. Some of which I have posted here. One was the Space elevator, that explored how one would build an elevator on a space station that was rotating for artificial gravity. A second idea was how to build a true to life, Star Trek like "turbo lift" that could travel not just up and down, but horizontally as well.

And the mono-rail is another example of cutting edge technologies I have been tinkering with. But unlike the other two, I still haven salved its fundamental problem, witch is actually one of economic consideration, and not technical. But before that, let me explore some of the thinking related to a mono-rail.

Why a mono-rail?

Picture if you will, a high tech, futuristic city. With oil nothing more than an entry in a history book, more efficient public transportation has become the only viable alternative to getting around. But picture a young mother and a baby carriage just strolling along for a walk. When suddenly, she comes across an obstacle. A set of three rail road tracks, including that infamous "third rail." To cross it, she would have to step over that third rail.

Okay. I over dramatize. Commuter rail is actually the norm in most developed countries. With the US being an obvious exception. Most use two standard rails laid down on the ground, with a suspended electric line over head. That removes the third rail issue, but still leave tracks that could trip a hapless pedestrian. And despite precautions, pedestrians are still struck down by trains.

So what is a high tech society suppose to do? Well, elevate the rail of course. Or more accurately, elevate the rail without necessarily elevating the cars. Thus letting the pedestrians pass underneath, even as the commuter rail runs over head. That is what a mono-rail is suppose to do, to suspend the car below it.

=====================____<--Suspension arm.
===___=====Track-->_H_===|
==|===|===========|===|==|
==|CAR|===========|CAR|==|<--Poll or suspention collom
==|===|===========|===|==|
_H___H_<-- Track________|
/==========Ground=========\


The problem with mono-rail.
Well, if this solution is so obvious, why don't we see more of them? The reason is economics. For a conventional track, you just have to lay down two rails on the ground. Its as simple as laying down a block of wood onto two pencils. And in general, what is simple, is cheep. But a monorail isn't that easy. Try suspending that pencil in mid air, then try to stick the block of wood up to the pencil to where it hangs beneath. Now you can do it, but your effort will have to be a lot more sophisticated, and that cost money.

And with a rail system, you have distance as a multiplier effect. Even small increases in cost in a dollar per mile can mean the differences between practical and too expensive.

Solution 1: Wheal carriage.
A defense against this is actually to place as much into the car itself as possible. And one way to do this is by adding more wheels to the wheal carriage (the assembly that contains the axles, brakes, and drive) to spread out the load of the car over more of the suspended track. This lets you build a lighter, and there for a cheaper track. But is that enough?

Solution 2: Compromise.
Another solution is to… well, to cheat. Rather than suspending the car, what you do is change the arrangement of how the car is arranged on the track.


___________
|===| H |===|
|CAR| | |CAR|
|===| | |===|
_____|_______
/=============\

______
|===| H
|CAR| |
|===|I|
_____|____
/==========\


The first one uses two cars to balance each other out. The lower one uses a second wheal at the base of the car to prop it up against the wall. This lets you reduce the complexity of the rail to wheal mechanism, and again helping to reduce the cost.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
jono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. One issue.
Edited on Sat Dec-20-03 09:32 PM by jono
A monorail doesn't have to suspend from the track, necessarily. The one we have in Seattle doesn't:



The system is about to be expanded for less money per mile than the light rail system that is also being built.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Very Cool
That is why I love talking about hypothetical technoligy.
When you say something is imposible, some one always comes along and proves your wrong. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. LOL
I thought your post was great. I think it's cool that you can think in such hypothetical terms. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I kinda have to
I am not well traveld. And not well educated. But I am thinking. The system you have there looks idea for being operated in heavy road trafic areas.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Neither does the one in Miami....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. This realy dose suprise me.
Perhaps if you would share some pictures, or as much technical or economic information as you can manage. That will help us move the debate from the hypothecital, to the actual.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. I bookmarked this
Maybe my technical students would like to do research in some of the areas you've discussed.


Cher
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. The fifth demention of invention, is economics.
There have been lots of ideas that have made use of wonderuse technoligy. I remeber reading about the Jappanes mag-lev reserch rail track. And they did get it to work. But the power needed to drive it, and the track construction was astronomical, just for a half mile reserch track.

Ironicly, bullet traines themselves make uses of power stering and active suspention of all things, to help them handel the turns faster. So simple ideas are alwas better ones, as well as cheaper ones.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-03 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. It would be intresting to hear some of there thoughts. nt
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
7. Could you make a super-sonic train?
And make it safe to operate?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. A supersonic train....
Hmmm...I don't think that would be viable. Imagine the sonic "boom"
blasting the nearby homes. Not to mention the effect it would have
on the surrounding animals, i.e., birds, deer, etc.
Now, if you could place the train in some sort of tube and create
a vacuum...then we could get interesting... ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Ultamatly, a super sonic train would prove to be unfesable.
But I don't think you could say that it would be technicly imposible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Instead of highway expansion!
Why not put a monorail line up in place of additional lanes when a highway needs expanding? Begin to build a true mass-transit infrastructure.

Or build the monorail above the highway. This has just been done in NYC with a line out to JFK airport. I believe it's actually light-rail. The structure may not be pretty but it's better than adding to the VanWyk Expressway.

Yes this would be very, very expensive but would also generate lots of jobs. Not that a highway is cheap. A figure I saw quite a long time ago was $1,000,000/mile.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Ohhhhh! Very good observation.
We have to remeber that we are not just talking about mass-trasit in a vacume, but that it must also compeat with auto-traffic systems.

Conventionl car and street systems are actualy cheep. But they are monstrusly inefichent in the number of people that can be moved. And the highway system is both inefichent, AND monsterusly expensive. I have no numbers, by a mono-rail system has GOT to be cheaper than dubble suspended 12 lain free-way.

Very good catch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-03 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. Monorail studies
Edited on Mon Dec-22-03 09:24 PM by TorchesAndPitchforks
There's a guy who's been speaking at our county council meetings for years who has taken on the monorail as his life's mission. Some people snicker at him but the guy has put forth some intriguing ideas. He even got them to OK a serious study which was stopped cold when the economy went south. There's a team in there now that wants to spend billions on a new highway that goes thru an environmentally-sensitive area.

He's put a lot of time and research into this. I wish I could remember his name. I think this is his web site: http://mvmi.org/
Unfortunately, its mostly unfinished, but it still has a lot of good information and some links.

The study that was commissioned three years ago produced a report, which available in .pdf here: http://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/content/dpwt/transit/routesandschedules/brochures/techreportfinalreport.pdf

I wish I had more time to look into this stuff because I think it holds real promise. It sounds economical and seems to be the most environmentally sound. Here in the Washington area, they were incredibly short-sighted when they built the subway system: there's no capacity to expand. There's only two tracks; during rush hour trains leave every three minutes and the cars take up all the available room in the stations. Its jam-packed with people and they continue to build more houses and sprawl. There's virtually no cross-town public transportation. Its a mess. Monorail seems like the only thing that offers a chance.

Keep diggin'!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-03 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
15. An over due correction. And then some.
When I started this post, I was working from the assumption that mono-rails were not economical. Believe it or not, this assumption wasn't exactly without merit, for reason dictates that if the mono-rail was more economical, than we would see more of them in use.

But you all have posted some very sound facts from the field that states that not only is the mono-rail more economical with existing technologies, and has proven itself in the field. But then this begs the question, why don't we see more of them?

Are there other economic factors that we are not taking into account? Or is there some kind of technological phobia at work here? Do the safety issues tend to out way the economic benefits? Is their political corruption that favors the auto industry? Or a combination of the above?

The political corruption problem would seem a likely answer. However, if this were so, why is there not an abundance of mono-rails outside the US? All though it dose look like Japan is making generous use of Monorail systems.

And there are other economical issues. The most common is service density. Almost without exception, here in the US, transportation must serve very densely populated work areas that are still very sparsely spread out over the city. With the exception of the central core business district. This means that a mass transits system can not drop you off at a station and expect you to make it to your work place. Most likely, a mass transit system would have to make a special stop or even station at a particular work campus or factory complex. At the other end is the very low density suburban sprawl. Serving these areas, even with busses, simply is not feasible because the population density doesn’t reach the critical mass needed to support such systems. So how the US population is spread out, and where they work, offers one explanation.

Another likely answer is that Americans are spoiled. We expected our transportation to be waiting for us in our garages, and drive all the way to the front door of our work place. And ideology that insists on this "convince" even when it is no longer convince given hours of commute time over highly congested, and remarkably expensive free-ways.

However, there is a serious economical problem at work here. Conventional cars and road ways remains economical up to a certain point. Such as the small, young comminutes that you find in the mid west. And it is a system that has proven itself to be very adaptable. So much so that some times counties and cities can not control or predict traffic flows. As Wichita can testify too. In the past, we have built 4 lane streets where every one still uses the older 2 lane streets. Forcing Wichita to abandon its conservatively drive fear of civic planing.

But most larger cities have sense long past this point. The point where taxable revenue from the public no longer meets the construction and maintenance of the road ways. I remember reading a study done by Scientific America looking into LA freeways, and they found out that the freeway system there passed that point in the mid 80's and is no doubt part of Californians budget crises. Mean while, the roadways themselves are failing to meet capacity. He number of lanes requires to serve a given population is exponential.

Another problem is land use. My dad just happened to be working up at the top of one of Kansas City's sky scrapers, and noted just how much of the city was dedicated to parking lots. Open parking lots at that. Parking garages help with the space, but in and of them selves are an inefficient use of space, and add to the expense of the over all system.

These inefficiencies impact the economy on a larger scale. We are extremely dependant on oil, and can not tolerate even small uptakes in fuel prices without harm to the larger economy, or even threatening inflation (contradicting the claim that the US economy is fundamentally robust and durable.) And shortages of fuel would result with real humanitarian problems of dispersion of food and threatening self sustainability of the population.

This is also damaging to the supply siders argument to the invisible hand managing the economy. If this were so, than why have our cities become so inefficient from an economical stand point? Why use more costly and less efficient high way system when efficiency dictates we go to mass-trait such mono-rail?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Inhibiting factors
I would agree with you that the main inhibiting factors are political and technophobic. A major source of campaign contributions and tax revenues come from new housing developments. 5000 additional cars on the roads and new school construction are things to worry about later, after the next election.

Monorails are still seen as politically risky. Not enough cities have undertaken projects yet. There was an old saying in management circles that "noone ever got fired for buying IBM;" its the herd (of sheep) mentality at work here. There's not an IBM-type company out there with a solid reputation to give politicos the cover they need.

America is a new country; unlike Europe and Japan, our land use patterns evolved differently. In the old country, people tended to settle in villages, towns and cities, for fear of attack or scarcity of land. Even farmers would live concentrated in a village and walk sometimes miles to their fields. In America land was cheap and plentiful. After the Indians were defeated, there was little concern for safety so people spread out instead of congregating in villages.

The most rapid growth of population and wealth has occurred in the Age of the Automobile and cheap oil, permitting the development of sprawling suburbs and exurbs. There are some interesting books out there on the nexus of automobile, land, and oil companies conspiring to advance the development of suburban housing tracts.

America is now nation built for the automobile predicated on the availability of abundant cheap energy. Corporations profited immensely and people enjoyed the convenience of personal transportation and green lawns. We are country designed for cars, not for people.

What will happen now that resource scarcity and environment consequences make this economic foundation untenable? Will techological breakthroughs come to the rescue? Or will we have to readjust our living patterns? We need technological breakthroughs AND wise city planning very soon to avoid a catastrophic breakdown with peak oil right around the corner. The adjustment may be very hard. I think its very smart to start thinking seriously about things like the monorail.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Also more economical to go with existing technology.
The Chief reason Buses replaced the old Streetcar (trolley) systems was that the Streetcars had to maintain their own right of ways (and if on a public Street the Public Street) while buses could travel on highways maintained by gasoline taxes. Thus except in locations where it was impossible to replace the Streetcar, buses replaced streetcars. A bus company only had to maintain the buses NOT the right or way.

In my home town of Pittsburgh, buses replaced Streetcars till only three Streetcar lines were left. These had originally been built as inter-urban line to Little Washington (i.e. Washington Pa, as opposed to Washington DC) and Charleroi on the Monongahela river. They had their own right of ways and tunnel through Mt Washington. They had travel through that part of the South Hills of Pittsburgh that had expanded to provide Coal during the late 1800s and early 1900s. Thus they connected various old "Coal patches".

After WWI, the City of Pittsburgh Built a Tunnel for Cars through Mt Washington and the South Hills became a Growing Suburb of Pittsburgh. The Streetcar line became even busier and given the growth of Traffic after WWII, it was faster to go take the Streetcar than to drive to Downtown Pittsburgh (Through after WWII the lines were cut back to the Allegheny County line ending service to both Charleroi and Washington Pa).

When it was proposed to replaced these Streetcar lines with Buses, people demanded the SAME SPEED and the buses could NOT do it (they had to go on the highways which had become clogged with traffic, the Streetcars, going on their own right of way, almost always beat CARS driving to Pittsburgh and that included the Streetcars to pick up more passengers while the car just ran to Town (Pittsburghese for Downtown Pittsburgh).

Note, CARS could not beat the Streetcars, trips on bus trips would have been twice as long as Streetcar rides. The powers that be in Pittsburgh wanted to get rid of the Streetcars but could not figure out how. Buses were out, to slow compared to the Streetcars being replaced. They did not want to rebuild the Streetcar line (It was over 60 years old at that time and needed a rebuilt) for streetcars were obsolete (This was the Mid-1960s, the LRVs would not start to come in till the early 1970s).

Westinghouse Electric made a proposal. Westinghouse was developing the people movers you now see at various airports in the Country. Rubber tired and automatic. Westinghouse proposed replacing the Streetcar line with an all weather, automatic, elevated full time version of its people mover called "Skybus".

Skybus had several advantages, first it was capable of going as fast as the old Streetcar line, it could travel frequently for it had no driver, it was to be elevated except for areas where the streetcar ran on its own exclusive right of way and had no road crossings.

Skybus also had problems. First to the technology being used, the speed of the cars had to be kept low, thus to maintain the same speed of service as the old streetcar line, the number of stops had to be reduced (almost 1/2 of the stops were to be eliminated). Now this does not sound bad, but the stops being eliminated were in areas that had been build up doing that time period between the opening up of the Streetcar tunnel in 1900 and the opening up of the Highway Tunnel (Liberty Tunnels) in 1927. These communities had been designed around the streetcar line and its abandonment meant complete disruption of the transportation system for those areas.

Another problem was do to the technology being used, you could not have two stream of traffic flowing together. i.e. the merging of two lines into one. To complex for the rubber tire system except for very limited entrances. This was complicated by the system having to be closed, you could not add lines to other locations. The streetcar line being replaced were actually THREE interconnected lines with three different end points (a Fourth being Downtown Pittsburgh for all of them). You could run two of them as one but not the third, it had to be merged with another line.

These problems were never resolved by the Skybus proponents and lead to extensive opposition. One area of opposition was the Beechview Neighborhood of Pittsburgh. Its students went to South Hills High School on the Street car line. The time between the School and the Neighborhood was about 6 minutes by Streetcar (and about 15-30 minutes if you drove). Skybus would bypass South Hills completely forcing ALL of the students to take School Buses (and the 15-30 minutes drive).

Another problem with Beechview is that when the Streetcar line was put in, it was put right on top of the ridgeline between two ridges. The Roads from Beechview to the outside were (and are) narrow and curvy. Thus the reduction of stops would have killed the neighborhood for the best way in and out of Beechview was (and is) by Streetcar.

Another Neighborhood to object was the Bethel Park Borough, now Bethel Park started out in the late 1800 as a collection of old coal patches, but with the coming of the Streetcar became a suburban growth area. After WWII, suburban growth was rapid, to much for the existing road system. Given the topography various plans to improve the road system had been still born, over the price to buy the homes in the area to expand the roads, AND the cost to cut into the hillsides to expand the highways (with additional costs that would have to be incurred for the whole area had been undermined during the late 1800s). Improving the Highway system was just not economical. As part of Skybus project a bus line through Bethel Park was to feed into the Skybus system instead of the existing Streetcar system, this was to get around the inability of Skybus to have more than one endpoint.

Thus both Beechview and Bethel Park opposed Skybus, for all they saw was decrease in service. Other areas supported it for increase service (The Streetcar line went by the first enclosed mall in the Pittsburgh Area, but missed it by about 1/4 mile, Skybus would be right next to it, so the Mall supported Skybus).

Areas NOT getting Skybus questioned its worth. Interesting side note, the three biggest transit stops in Pennsylvania are 1. Downtown Philadelphia, 2. Downtown Pittsburgh 3. The Oakland section of Pittsburgh where the University of Pittsburgh and CMU are located. Many people questioned why the South Hills? Why not Town to Oakland? Actually made sense given the movement of people between Oakland and Town but never was even proposed, SKYBUS was strictly a method to get rid of Streetcars NOT as a real transit system. At the time period in question 1965-1975, more people supported Skybus from Oakland to Town and improvement of the Streetcar line to the South Hills than either opposed Skybus or wanted Skybus to replace the South Hills Streetcar system.

Finally in the mid-1970s the Federal Government told Pittsburgh to get its act together as to improving its mass transit. A study was done and determined that re-building the Streetcar line as a LRV line made the most sense. You kept most of the stops, you could keep all three lines going and merging and since LRV are man operated (as opposed to the Computers of Skybus) you could run it on existing streets (Through most of the route was to be on its own right of way).

The study basically pointed out that NO TRANSIT system can break even on its own. The main reason is the costs to collect tolls. Roughly 30 % of the cost of Tolls are used to pay for the collection of such tolls. Given that such costs when it comes to Highway construction is carried by the seller of Gasoline (as part of his costs to collect for the purchase of gasoline), highway construction based on gasoline taxes has a built in 30% cost advantage. Mass transit can NOT compete with that.

A second findings was that by 1975 European LRV design had cross over the Atlantic to hit the US. You than had LRVs as a option to replace old streetcars, something you did not have in the 1960s unless you started construction of such cars yourself.

A third finding was that by retaining the old streetcar right of way (and adding a tunnel under the only major highway the Streetcar line traveled on) costs could be reduced since the number of buildings needed to be purchased could be minimized.

The fourth and final factor was that the LRV could have more than one end point and as such more flexible for future expansion, Skybus had never been designed as something you could have more than one endpoint.

Now what has this to do with your Mono-rail? A lot. First, Skybus was an elevated system, this increased costs for the towers costs money to build and to maintain. The old streetcar line was in need of replacement, but the big costs were NOT the rails, but the Bridges it traveled on. Skybus would be one big Bridge (like your Monorail) and as such more expensive to maintain.

Now the old streetcar system (and the LRV system that replaced it) was (and are) Pennsylvania Standard Gauge (5'2") as opposed to US Standard Gauge (4' 8 ½"). This reduced the ability to run other rail cars on the system, but conversion is not that hard and such interchangeability has been found to be valuable. Your Monorail system (Like Skybus) was restricted to its own right of way and could not be used anywhere else.

Related to the above is the ability to buy used or new cars. As the Pittsburgh rail system aged, it purchased used equipment from other rail system. The Conversion to Pa Gauge was easy so costs could be kept down. Your Mono-rail (and Skybus) could only use custom made cars, thus the system lacked flexibility as to where and how to buy additional vehicles for the system.

Related to the above is also the concept of economies of Scale, LRVs are still made in Europe and Japan, thus the Fixed costs of setting up a production line can be spread over many more vehicles than a custom built system like Skybus or your Monorail.

These are the main reason the Streetcar is coming back (as the LRV). The Alternatives (People Movers, Monorails) are not as flexible in the above areas (and these are major areas of costs). Power usage is about the same in any of the systems, but the increased economies of Scale, the ability to sell (and buy) already made equipment, and the ability to run with traffic if it has to, all gives the LRV an advantage over other systems.

The only transit with lower costs is a bus system. The problem with buses is they run with cars and therefore will always to slower than cars (and given that buses uses diesel fuel, you can not run them underground like you can a LRV or even your monorail system) . To improve mass transit in urban areas, you have to separate Mass transit from Auto transit and today the best way to do that is to install a LRV system.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Economy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC