Class warfare, what can we do about it?

[screembloodymurder]

"There has been no more blatant act of class antagonism in recent memory than the apparent willingness of Congress and Wall Street’s appointed grifter, Henry Paulson, to let a major part of the American manufacturing sector die."

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/19010

[patrice]

1. Learn about it, understand it, teach others, never forget how it works, BUT

don't make it THE principle and purpose of what we do.

[GliderGuider]

2. At this point, absolutely nothing.

They have the media, the laws and the guns. Until their power base comes apart they will be too strong to confront directly.

The last section of this article lays out the reasons in more detail: http://paulchefurka.ca/Politics.html#Guardian

[OHdem10]

3. Perhaps they realize that the "Free Trade" Policy is playing out

as they planned. In order to compete, all American Salaries must
drop substantively. High Salaries make out products too expensive.
Poor Countries cannot afford them. We are in a big wave of harmonizing
American Salaries downward. Those union salaries and benefits do
not fit Globalization plans.

The financial crisis along side the Globalization surge downward
is going to change American living standards forever.

Think about it.

[Dhalgren]

4. Win it or be slaves forever.

The wealthy/ruling class cares not whether we live or die - just as long as we behave and work. How well we behave, how well we work, how high a standard of living we are allowed, all these things are just margins. If you feed your slaves well, they will work better, but if you go too far, the returns will not justify the excess food. Same with clothing and housing and individual liberty; it is a balance of how much you put back into the labor that creates your wealth. The Upper class doesn't really need to worry; the under classes in this country are too frightened to cross their owners very much...

[Citizen Number 9]

7. Um.....

There is more opportunity in America than any other country in the world.

If people feel like they haven't done well, maybe they should examine the part their personal decisions played in it.

[RainDog]

8. Actually, that's not true, as a recent studied showed.

social democracies afford more opportunities for their citizens. your remark, of course, is the standard knee-jerk jingoistic don't wanna look my country in the face remark you hear all the time - because to admit that your nation is treating you much worse than people are treated in social democracies would mean you might have to examine whether or not you are being sold a load of horse puck while you pay for the irresponsible financial behavior of the rich.

http://www.pewtrusts.org/news_room_detail.aspx?id=35524

Americans are particularly optimistic about their chances of moving up the economic ladder,” said Isaacs. “However, a growing number of studies show that when compared to other industrialized nations, the United States stands out as having less, not more, economic mobility.” In particular, 42 percent of sons born into the bottom income quintile stay there as adults, compared to 25 percent in Denmark, 28 percent in Norway and 30 percent in the United Kingdom. Moreover, it takes an average of six generations for family economic advantages to disappear in the United States, compared to three generations for Canada, signaling higher mobility in Canada. It is important to note when making such cross-country comparisons, that Americans may have farther to climb to get to the next rung on the ladder than their European counterparts due to increasing levels of inequality in the United States.

You might also be interested in reading The Divine Right of Capital, written by a small business owner. She notes that we have yet to dethrone certain aspects of monarchy because too many simply accept that they should be treated as peasants by stockholders who do nothing to create anything, whose holdings in a stock are often not part of the initial build up of a biz and are therefore based upon betting among rich people rather than any production.

Just as it was hard for some to make the move away from the idea that god appointed kings, so shut up and let them do as they please, it's time for Americans to recognize that the stockholders have no clothes.

[Citizen Number 9]

11. The report is about Economic Mobility

And it makes several assumptions, one of which is that opportunity is equated with mobility. It notes that there is a greater distance between the levels in the US versus other "socialized" countries. This fact will affect your conclusions.

I think your assumptions (all of them) are hilarious, however.

[Dhalgren]

9. Rain Dog took you to school, Number 9.

I hope you were paying attention. Have a productive day for the bosses! :hi:

[Citizen Number 9]

12. You two are both amusing me

But there is nothing more amusing than a foolish follower.

Are both of you dissatisfied with the opportunities you have had as an American child or just with what you have made of them?

[RainDog]

13. you do not even know what the term economic mobility means

Your insults are funny since they demonstrate that you do not even understand the terms you are trying to dispute. Economic mobility is not about TRAVEL. It is about moving up the economic ladder - you know, from poor to middle class.

it's really funny that you use your ignorance as a reason to insult someone else. however, it fits with the overall lack of insight in your other post.

I guess I'm okay with the opportunities I had. My grandparents (I'm from the south) did not have indoor plumbing in the 1960s. My mother had a 3rd grade education. She had to leave school to work on the family farm.

When I was a kid, Peabody college for teachers started a program for those who showed some talent for learning and drew kids from three diff. elementary schools into a program. It was a gifted and talented program, before such things really existed - in fact, we were a prototype. So, via public school, I was able to obtain a good education. I have a masters degree, so I guess I made something of my opportunities.

However, I'm also a mother and, as a female, I was constantly in the role of caregiver - I put off my own professional goals to help take care of my stepmother when she was dying of cancer, for instance. I put my children before my career. I have an autistic child and his situation is not exactly the standard issue for kids growing up.

But because of my belief that my family is more important than any other thing, I have lived w/o health insurance for about 8 years now. I am under-employed - but I'm sending out job apps now that my kids have gotten older. Even tho I was a phi beta kappa undergraduate, even tho I had won awards for my writing, including a grant from the nat'l endowment... I wasn't able to get a job writing for the dinky local newspaper, for instance, when my kids were younger.

funny, tho. when I met someone who worked for the paper via a friend of mine, I got a job and no one even asked for my qualifications (and the editor didn't know them) Even so, I didn't make a living wage. I was invited to teach at a college in Chicago, and considered commuting so that my kids could be with both parents, but ultimately I would not have been paid enough to justify this, either.

My ex, btw, is from Europe. His father was constantly ill when my ex was younger. If my ex had lived in the U.S., he would have ended up in Cabrini Green or something... his mom took in sewing, but she was not a business woman. However, because he lived in a nation with socialized medicine, his dad got treatment. Because he lived in a nation with subsidized college, he got a good education. He became a professor and now he teaches American kids... who, he notes, are always more poorly educated yet always more expecting of entitlements than students from other nations. Maybe that's because they're too ignorant to know the meanings of concept, like, oh, I dunno, economic mobility.

I'm not sure what you thought you were accomplishing by your remark, other than an exhibition of what an asshole you are.

But you do provide an good example of how it is possible to be stupid and still achieve some level of success, or at least to think you have.

Since you felt free to insult me without any knowledge of my life, it was a pleasure to return the favor.

No one ever gave me anything. I earned it.

[Citizen Number 9]

16. You've had nothing but opportunity

As well as the ability to make your own decisions.

My original remark had to do with America being the land of opportunity.

In my own life I see numerous alternative possibilities. However, because I made careful decisions I could live with at every turn, I have to look back and say that I am content. There are a lot of places this can't be so easily done. America, however, IS one of them. Whining about how others have had the opportunities, or worse yet, how we should target them is an indicator of someone who can't face him/herself honestly.

[AnneD]

14. Low number of post.....

can't back up daily talking points with facts and links........I smell a troll.

Never put your hand in the crazy folks, or better yet, follow the sig line instructions

[Citizen Number 9]

15. Maybe if I spoke with an accent

Or wore a polo shirt with a little logo on the chest you'd be able to pigeonhole me a little better, huh?

No one has asked for any facts or links. If you disagree, feel free to say so. After all, isn't this what discussion on the Internets is about?
I will point out that I am not too impressed by what passes for 'scholarship' on the internet. Folks end up posting hilarious opinion pieces or laughably biased 'news' sources in an attempt to 'support' their views.

In this case, a single study, even by an organization as respected as the Pew Center is not enough to 'prove' anything on its own. Economic Mobility may be an indicator of "opportunity", but it does not answer the issue. The US still represents a pinnacle of opportunity, which is why so many immigrants want to come here.

I feel embarrassed for those who are born here yet whine about how inequitable it was for them.

[RainDog]

18. you miss the point

and the Pew Study was a large study of various issues, not one. the entire report is available via pdf from the link I posted. Maybe you should look at those who were involved - they're among the most powerful policy analysts in this nation.

This information is not limited to a single study. The UN compiles quality of life indices from various countries and the U.S. also ranks below other western democracies in these indices. There are numerous studies that have noted that France, for instance, has the best health care system in the world. All of these studies are considered "best evidence."

If you weren't more concerned with continuing to hold your belief, you could find these things out for yourself instead of making yet more false claims. The scholarship which you question is not "from the internet." Again, this claim is just so stupid it boggles the mind. You apparently do not know the groups involved and therefore, you think that makes it valid for you to reject them.

However, the Pew Trust is among one of the most respected institutions in this nation. The Brookings Institute is part of the "power structure" of this nation and is, by no stretch of the imagination, some unknown fringe group.

the original point was that the claim that the U.S. is the best is not true. Your claim is false.

A business woman who raises excellent points about the way in which certain ideological assumptions skew our ability to develop a better way of doing business is not whining. It is truly idiotic to claim that anyone who questions the status quo is whining.

You are the problem because you frame the issue as whining when someone brings it to your attention that your claim is wrong. Rather than looking at the information provided, you are lazy and make yet another idiotic statement that is, again, based upon nothing but your own desire to ignore reality.

by your rationale, we should never have questioned slavery or child labor. what whiners, huh?

[Citizen Number 9]

19. Semantics? Is it about semantics?

Maybe I am missing your (narrow?) point. I could change the statement to read that the US is one of the systems holding the most opportunity for people.

For me, it doesn't make much difference. In the socialized nations, the lions share of the "economic mobility" is accomplished through the taxing structure. I can assure you that Americans as a whole are much less class-aware than citizens in the socialized nations mentioned in your one report.

Fact remains that people come to the US for the opportunity they feel they will have here and not elsewhere.

I think its just plain odd that you are taking me to task on a number of things you are erroneously assuming. Actually it is beginning to give me a measure of the way in which you approach things. You know nothing about me which would include my "desire to ignore reality". I am a scientist by training and I can assure you that I have a greater grip on what actually constitutes reality than most observers of the human condition.

I quite clearly identified the Pew organization as a reputable source. Nevertheless, a single source does not settle the matter for me. I also pointed out that the study did not directly quantify "opportunity" which was my assertion.

And to conclude....what exactly is "my rationale"? ?? Particularly as it applies to slavery and child labor? If you think this is scholarship or even good debate, you're getting lost in your own misperceptions.

[DemReadingDU]

5. evening kick

[leftofthedial]

6. I fear we have reached a point at which the people will need to take back control

of their government by force--including nonviolent "force"--force of numbers, passive resistance, demonstrations and the like.

Sadly though, if it gets any worse, I don't think violence is avoidable.

[Citizen Number 9]

17. "Force of numbers"?

In the US, don't we call that 'an election'?

If it "gets any worse", against which classes are you suggesting that "violence is unavoidable"?

[skooooo]

10. fight for the middle class!