RETAIL DISASTER IS THE NEXT PHASE - RETAIL NEEDS URGENT GOVERNMENT HELP

[Morpheal]

Keep in mind that retail needs an urgent bailout.

Late autumn and early winter sales statistics are what keep the retail sector alive
during the dismal after Boxing Day mid to late winter traditional slump.

Without solid revenues in November and December, coming into January means
total disaster, with no hope for many to meet their fiscal obligations to get
through the traditional slump. Those stuck with excess inventory, and having
to sell off at below cost, simply to reduce debt, are in even worse shape to
weather through the latter part of January and most of February and March.

In many parts of the country that also means the highest costs for heating,
which adds to the cost of keeping retail doors open.

Government will have to step in to help the retail sector survive this one.

Right now there is no other way.

Robert Morpheal

[Idealism]

1. I don't think they'll get much help

No one will be keen on bailing out a WalMart-esque organization. Some of those stores shutting down wouldn't be a bad thing, the supermarkets would be fine because people always need to eat, but must we have a Best Buy every mile down the road, or a Starbucks on every corner?

[Art_from_Ark]

68. You think supermarkets would be fine?

Not in my home town, at least. In the 1960s, when the town's population was less than 10,000, there were 6 supermarkets. Today, with the population 5 times higher than it was then, there is, excluding Wal-Mart Supercenter, one supermarket (which seems to be teetering on the brink), and another food market that doesn't quite make it to "super" status. Lots of regional and national supermarkets have tried to make a go of it there, including Kroger, IGA, Consumers, Piggly Wiggly, and Safeway, but they have all gone by the wayside.

[Donnachaidh]

2. you are talking about Canada, yes?

Because quite frankly, I don't want to see the US get into the business of bailing out everyone who has lost money.

Perhaps something for smaller businesses, but I think if we see money being ladled out to Big Box stores, because they didn't make the same profit they did last year - you're going to see an ugly situation.

[notadmblnd]

3. PUT PEOPLE TO WORK AND PAY THEM A LIVING WAGE!!!

That is the only thing that is going to save all these markets. The rich will do nothing for no one but themselves.

[Citizen Number 9]

6. I am curious

About what you consider a living wage right now.....

[notadmblnd]

9. for a single person, 15.00 an hour.

[Citizen Number 9]

10. What about

two married working people?

And two married workers with a child?

[notadmblnd]

11. i would think 45-50k

for married w/children. 35-40k working couple. Now keep in mind that this doesn't allow for an extravagant lifestyle. But earnings would allow people to meet their needs and possibly save for their retirements.

[abelenkpe]

17. Not here

45,000 a year for a couple with children? Enough to live and save for retirement? Where? What is that four grand a month? So after taxes that would be like 2800 dollars. No way.

70,000 would be a living wage and that's all it would be. You'd get no retirement and no college for the kids. Wage slave until you die.

[Citizen Number 9]

21. Why not just

say an even hundred grand so there's some for college and a good retirement and maybe a Hawaii vacation every other year? :eyes:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

23. Why not just ask what the average CEO has done to deserve his compensation?

Probably a lot less than the average wage earner in the U.S. At least the working class person can't claim to have driven a company into the ground.

[Citizen Number 9]

24. Their job

is to make money for the shareholders.

Business is inherently risky.

Really, we just pay them a lot because they are fun to golf with. :eyes:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. From what I understand, that has a lot more to do with it than you think.

The Old Boy Network is alive and well and many CEOs still have bars in their offices.

[Citizen Number 9]

33. Ha ha.

Yeah, there's always a reason you just can't do something in America, isn't there? :nopity:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

36. There's always some asshole defending the status quo too.

The plutocrats can always count on easily-deluded people like you to carry their water.

Like I said, Free Republic is that way ------------>

I don't know how your post count as high as you have.

[Citizen Number 9]

38. I'm a lifelong Dem - Major Party supporter

Wake up.

You may find it chic to attack the status quo, but not all of it needs to be torn down all the time.

Usually just a mark of someone who has never done anything substantial and doesn't know what it takes to build something that has value for members, citizens, whatever.

Review my posts. Discuss what has actually been said as opposed to what you hear echoing in there.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

39. "...just a mark of someone who has never done anything substantial ..."

You do realize that the Democratic Party is supposed to stand up for "the little guy" don't you? They probably didn't teach you that at those DLC seminars.

[Citizen Number 9]

40. Yeah, but we're not against the little guy

becoming a big guy. Big guys who have been little guys more often make better big guys.

And while most of us believe in making sure that opportunity is the most important thing we can promote, at the same time, most of us realize that it is important for folks to value and work for the things they dop get.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

42. And "little guys" who never become "big guys"?

Which accounts for oh, I don't know, 98% of the population? What about them? They can just fuck off, right?

[Citizen Number 9]

47. Not at all

Not everyone wants to make the effort and that is just fine. But it takes some pretty blind and self-absorbed folks to make that decision and then whine about how "things are so unfair" and take aggressive postures towards those who have worked hard for what our society might consider "more". Moreover, the whiners want to act like those rich folks are all privileged white men who got all the breaks and that just ain't so.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

49. Yet so many of the "rich folks" just so happen to be "privileged white men who got all the breaks"

Ain't it funny how it so often works out that way? I guess I just don't understand "meritocracy". :shrug:

[Citizen Number 9]

77. I'm not too worried about it

And never was.

There is no question that having privilege can make your life easier. However, if you worry about what other folks are doing all the time, you'll never be free to follow your own path. AND, I have to say that I see a lot of people, having made a comfortable life for their family, in the process of ruining their children's chances for success by handing them everything.

I have seen too many examples of people from all walks of life who have achieved their dreams in spite of setbacks to run around whining about someone else's privilege. It is important that we keep the playing field as level as possible. I think we have been relatively successful in doing that. If you are concerned only with running out and squealing about the uneven spots, you run the risk of missing the opportunity to actually make a difference in the big picture.

Did you notice that the President-elect grew up in what was essentially a poor single-parent household and that he is a citizen of color?

[amandabeech]

44. If you are a major party supporter,

then I'm off to form another party where your money will not be welcome.

Alternatively, I'd be happy to escort you to the Republicans, where your condescending attitude toward those who are less fortunate than you would be welcome.

[Citizen Number 9]

46. The condescending attitude

is reserved for those who have deliberately chosen to make less and then whine about it. Or possibly for people who try to act like everyone who is needy has been "less fortunate".

And good try, but my check has never been rejected.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

50. I'm sure the DLC never rejects your checks. nt

[amandabeech]

65. I should have stayed more involved.

Then I might have the pleasure of rejecting your checks.

Seriously, I think that you need to get some medical help because your heart isn't functioning properly.

Good day.

[Citizen Number 9]

66. Thanks

But the ticker is fine.

I think it would do you some good to go back and examine what it is, exactly, that I've said, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't warrant the personal attacks you are dishing out.

Use exact quotes, I've noticed some of you aren't too polished at either paraphrasing or perception.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

29. Why not?

What do you have against working people? Free Republic is thataway --------------->

:thumbsdown:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

15. The same. Combined wage of $30 an hour.

Plus the tax deductions and credits they get for the child. It's not a lavish life, by any means, but it's enough to provide for the basics and maybe put a few dollars away.

[anigbrowl]

12. Doing what?

For sure we need more jobs, but when I see 'put people to work' I think you need to be more specific about where you think that capital and labor should be invested. The USSR had full employment but it was still an economic failure because they ignored the concept of productivity while trying to maintain an autarky.

[notadmblnd]

13. we have the solar and wind industries coming to fruition

We have an entire infrastructure to rebuild. Bring those IT jobs back to this country. I don't see a problem creating work to be done in this country.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

16. There's plenty of work to do.

We have infrastructural issues that will keep us busy for decades. We have millions of empty homes that could be refurbished for low income residents. We have blighted communities that could be cleaned up and made livable. We have communities in desperate need of transporation alternatives such as light and commuter rail. We have nuclear power plants that need to be refurbished - they keep getting recommissioned because the money isn't available to make sure they are safe. We need more teachers and doctors and nurses. We have lots of smart-as-a-whip innovators who have great ideas about how to break our dependence on fossil fuel and they need the capital to make it happen. We have artists and musicians and writers and poets who don't mind starving a little bit for their craft but would appreciate a renewed commitment to supporting the arts in this country. We have millions of people who may not be artistically gifted or scientists or geniuses but they want to work and have dignity and they would be invaluable to accomplishing great things.

If this country really committed itself to a massive public works project, productivity would be the least of our worries for the next few decades, IMHO.

[Citizen Number 9]

14. What would the minimum qualifications for a living wage be?

Wouldn't there be some workers whose labor just wouldn't be worth that much?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

18. So they can just die then?

Then can just work their fingers to the bone for a pittance until they are worn out, at which point they can beg on the street?

What are you saying?

[Citizen Number 9]

20. Strictly speaking,

I don't think that's what "living wage" means. It would be nice if everyone got what is considered a living wage, but the truth is that some workers aren't worth what that would be. They need to develop skills or get more education and it would be necessary to have a lower wage during that time.

WA state has the highest minimum wage in the country at $8.55 starting Jan 1, 2009. That's more than some workers are worth.

Have any of you actually had to make a payroll?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

22. When have you actually had to live on $8.55 an hour?

And when you were "making that payroll" did you ever consider the lives and needs of your employees?

[Citizen Number 9]

25. Actually,

I not only lived on it, I paid for college, although back then it was much less than $8.55. After a year, I decided I wouldn't make it the whole way working at simple jobs so I tripled up and took additional training so I could move up to a job that paid more.

and yes, you consider them nearly every waking minute, but I suspect that you, having very little actual knowledge and a blinding attitude to boot, will find that hard to believe.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

30. Oh jesus, you've got your own Horatio Alger story too.

Well, I guess you can be anything on the Internet. :eyes:

BTW assuming your tale were true (which I don't), have you looked at the cost of college lately? If you think someone making 8 bucks an hour could pay for it and live, you are high.

[Citizen Number 9]

32. Maybe, if you're "lazy" you can't

But, as usual in life, better results generally go to those who are willing to work hard to achieve them.

Anyway, you either aren't well educated about what you are posting or are dishonest.

At $8.55 an hour you could make about $16,000 a year.

More than 50% of US college students pay LESS than $9,000 a year in tuition and fees. That leaves $7,000 for living on and dorm plans cost less than $5,000 including board.

I daresay that without other resources, you might be eligible for some loans or other financial aid to take whatever edge there is left off.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

35. Fuck off, Rush.

"Lazy"

Fuck you. Seriously.

[Citizen Number 9]

37. Ha ha, that's one of the rudest things ever said to me on any of the Internets

Congratulations.

Hey, everything is relative. I'm lazier than someone else, there's someone lazier than me. Relax. There's always someone smarter or worse off than you.

Rush. Ha ha. :dunce:

[fasttense]

54. So everyone who has NOT been LUCKY enough to make tons of

money to hold them through this coming Republicon Great Depression 2.0, are evil, shiftless, lazy people? Right? Have you read the Grapes of Wrath? Did you notice how lazy all those starving people were?

Only the rich are good people cause they know how to make (or steal) a buck. If you don't like, want or are able to make money then you are simply lazy, shiftless, ignorant or god hates you.

So my husband, who went out and worked 12 to 16 hour days, seven days a week for 2 years, who lost his job because the company lost the contract was just lazy, right?

He's lazy because he has put out thousands of resumes and every single one turns him down. He's lazy because he's overqualified and too old?

So tell me, when are the rich sanctimonious idiots going to fight their own wars, clean their own toilets, protect their own property and teach their own children?

[Citizen Number 9]

56. Whoa, do you really

want to hear the answers I have to your questions, or are you just ranting in general?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

59. Oh gee, how might you answer that?

"Pull yourself up by your bootstraps!"

[Citizen Number 9]

60. As you get older

I can see how it gets harder and harder for people to do that.

Because I grew up with relatively little in the way of financial advantages, I realized that being able to take care of my family and having a financial safety net right from the beginning was important to long term stability.

[Art_from_Ark]

69. Several big problems with your figures

First, $8.55/hour jobs are not easy to get in most parts of the country for most college students.

Second, you are assuming working full-time, 40 hours/week to earn that $16,000 gross. The problem is, most college students cannot work full-time, for one reason or another. Twenty hours a week is probably closer to the norm. That would knock your figure down to $8,000 gross, at $8.55/hour. But most student jobs pay closer to national minimum wage, so figure $6 to $6.50 for the average student. Working 50 weeks per year at $6.50/hour for 20 hours a week (assuming two weeks off for vacation periods) would gross a whopping $6500/year. Working full-time during a three-month summer might cover the FICA, income tax, and other deductions.

[Citizen Number 9]

70. Hey, I'm glad someone cares enough to comment.

$8.55 is the new minimum wage in WA state. The new Federal minimum is $7.25.

I realize that many college students can't work a full schedule because they are too busy partying, but I'm not too impressed by that. Similarly, I'm not too interested in working out a schedule to "prove" that they just can't swing enough work to pay for college.

Listen. I went to college. I went to all different types of schools and I saw everything. I saw students who carried everything from a full work schedule to none at all, so I know it can be done. It's all about how much you want it.

Vacation? When you're carrying 1.3 load equivalents in hard courses, going to work IS a vacation. Maybe you mean school break. I loved those because I could get on with local industry at labor rates and they loved me because I would work any shift any time.

I think your 20 hours a week is weak. There is 16 hours to work on the weekend alone. I loved night shifts because it didn't interfere with class.

[Art_from_Ark]

71. Once again your figures are wrong

The current US minimum wage is only $6.55/hour, and that has only been in effect since July of this year. Before that, it was $5.85. The $7.25 wage you quoted does not go into effect until the middle of next year.

As for college students only wanting to party, that is no doubt true for some of them, but there is also such a thing as studying, writing term papers, becoming involved in campus activities to expand one's horizons, which eat up a lot of free time. There is also the fact that there are relatively few full-time jobs available for college students because being college students, they likely leave that job as soon as they graduate, if not sooner, so employers would rather hire people who will likely stay with a full-time job.

And claiming that "going to work IS a vacation" is pure bullshit for most of the student jobs out there, certainly in my experience. I had plenty of shit jobs during my college days, and they were anything but a vacation. The work was denigrating, and the bosses (and co-workers) made it clear that they didn't appreciate having a "college boy" in their midst.

[Citizen Number 9]

72. Read the posts

We were talking about the new minimum wages - the ones starting next year.

You have a very limited knowledge of the types of employment students might take.

As an employer, I am happy to employ college students, for all the following reasons; it helps them out, they are bright and interesting, they want part-time and they can take the shifts that regular workers try to avoid, namely nights and weekends, and they don't qualify for bennies. I have no doubt that there are employers who would rather hire full-time workers, but that would be only a piece of the great big pie out there.

Denigrating? What job did you have that was denigrating? I think I am beginning to see what is wrong here........

My co-workers always liked me. I did my share of the work. Ha ha. Actually, I can still hear the union guys saying "slow down, kid; there's plenty of work for everyone that way.....". Their wives would send along extra pie or something at lunch and they were always inviting me to their barbecues or hunting.... If I were you I might reconsider as to the reasons why you felt unwelcome in your work experience. While you're at it, try and expand your mind to understand that your experiences were apparently quite limited. That might generate a little restraint the next time you are going to make yourself foolish calling BS.

Many kids in my community can't be bothered to work at all. Maybe it's too denigrating for them. Maybe they don't need money because their folks give them everything. My kids will go to college with two or three work skills that can command part-time employment at high rates. Think about it. It's a good plan. I know a girl who makes $30 an hour plus tips walking dogs. Oops. Maybe that's too denigrating for you, too.

What the hell did you study in College? I got an engineering degree and a hard science degree. Cleaning up in the Operating Rooms was a pleasure compared to PChem problem sets.

[Art_from_Ark]

75. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about

Have you ever had the pleasure of doing a REAL shit job? I mean, one that involves REAL SHIT?
It sure doesn't sound like it. I have, and it was no picnic. Shit jobs were what was available, during the middle of the goddam Reagan recession. You obviously have absolutely no idea what denigrating is.

And perhaps where you are, it would be easy to find people who are too lazy or too rich to walk their own dogs, but in Arkansas, there are few places, even in college towns, where people would pay 30 bucks an hour (plus tips, no less!) for some college student to take Rover for a stroll.

So come down off your high horse, Bellerophron, before Pegasus throws you into the brambles.

[Citizen Number 9]

76. I think I've shown that I have a much broader approach to work than you have

All you have for us is some four letter descriptions of what you have presumably done. Lets have it. We're waiting. What have you done that is a real shit job and why was it the only work you could get? You remind me of some employees I was training once who refused to say "Yes Sir" and "No, ma'am". Apparently they felt that was too denigrating, so I put on a uniform and got a $50 tip from my first client and $100 from the next one...

Interestingly enough, as a biology lab assistant, I did earn work-study money to process owl pellets between semesters one year. That would properly be called a "shit job", I believe.

And, in just another indication of how little you actually know about work and working, one doesn't receive $30 per hour from one owner to walk dogs. The big money is earned from organizing and scheduling the dog walking so you are taking care of multiple clients and doing multiple things at one time. That is how someone manages to prosper even in a small town of 25,000 residents with tens of thousands of other students. BTW, she learned that and saved a huge amount for college in her farming community of 7,500 residents.

I think it supports the point that you are in no way qualified to school me on these things, although I do have to say that your command of Greek Mythology is admirable. I like folks who have made an effort to educate themselves.

[GliderGuider]

4. This is what a depression is all about.

The retail sector is consumption-based, and falling consumption is one of the things driving us into this depression. Saving the stores won't help if the consumers can't buy.

Also, the money for government bailouts can come from one of only two places: out of taxpayers' pockets or created de novo as PixelBucks™. In a severe depression (which I think we're entering) there will be little additional taxpayer money available, especially given the American consumer debt situation. Creating money obviously fuels inflation, potentially leading to hyper-inflation. In any event, the current financial crisis was triggered by a loss in confidence in the value of exactly such forms of "money" -- electronically created debt masquerading as assets. Let's not go there a second time, even with the government running the money computers. It was a bad idea the first time.

We're far better off in the long run to let the fur fly and the chips fall where they may (to mangle some metaphors).

[Citizen Number 9]

5. I don't agree that retail needs help

it is the easiest economic sector to reconstitute. It literally appears out of nowhere, compared to manufacturing and transport networks.

Now, what might need help is commercial real estate after all the retail outlets close their doors, but that is a topic for another thread.

[Warpy]

7. The best way to help the retail sector

is to double the minimum wage over the next two years. Oh, yes, they'll howl about it at first and there will be a short spike in unemployment, but increased demand for goods and services will soon eclipse those higher labor costs.

Have you ever heard any merchants clamor for a rollback of a minimum wage hike six months after it occurred?

Neither have I.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

19. When there was a minimum wage increase on the ballot in AZ in 2006

A surprising number of small business owners supported it. They obviously did the math and realized that it was in their best interest to have more money in the pockets of working people. BTW, it passed.

[mentalslavery]

8. No, Its the hedge funds

Retail will come thereafter

[sendero]

26. Retail is toast..

.. and the gov't isn't going to do anything directly about it, nor should they.

[marketcrazy1]

27. living wage calculator

http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/ --- calculate the living wage where YOU live.....

[mrreowwr_kittty]

31. Put people to work and raise wages.

Stop giving tax breaks and incentives to the Walmart-type stores and make them reimburse the government for the health care their employees use.

[sendero]

34. There are lots of things..

... that could be done to make things fairer and better. And the only bright spot in the coming depression is that we'll finally have the critical mass of political will to do something.

[Citizen Number 9]

41. If you're going to raise wages,

I'd be more inclined to make sure they have basic health care first. They prolly need that more than money in their pocket.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

43. How about both?

And yeah, they do need money in their pocket to buy stuff from you Masters of the Universe. The bubbles only last so long, you know?

[Citizen Number 9]

45. What is it about

Dems that make them act like money grows on trees?

I gotta say that some of the people in the party I stay the farthest away from are the ones who have no money of their own but are happy to spend everyone else's.

They get very indignant when they eventually get their funding cut off.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

48. How, um, very Republican of you to say that.

Seriously, how have you managed to get such a (relatively) high post count here?

[Citizen Number 9]

52. Managed?

It looks like I can push the 'Return' key as well as lots of other posters here.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

51. Oh and what IS it about you Trickle Down worshippers?

Where DO you get the idea that depressing wages will lead to the continuation of an economic system that is based on continued GROWTH? I mean, don't people have to be able to BUY whatever it is you are SELLING?

[Citizen Number 9]

53. What a silly question.

Your premise shows you have very little actual understanding of how things work. I don't depress wages any more than consumers force down the price of shirts. It's a market force.

Get some better training, do some more specialized (valuable) work and "someone" will "have" to pay you more.

I realize it's very popular here to talk about all these things as if someone was at the reins of a great machine, but that's simply a refusal to recognize the real causes of how things actually work. Human nature. You can't overcome it except by taking one person at a a time.....

[mrreowwr_kittty]

57. Yes, it is possible to depress wages.

I'd suggest you start educating yourself about it, instead of being smug and condescending while spewing corporate talking points. Start by reading the many, many informative and elucidating posts on DU about that very issue. No one is buying the "retrain yourself" bullshit anymore.

[Citizen Number 9]

61. Theories abound on DU,

but only a portion of them have any substantial basis in reality and even fewer yet are probably true.

You employ a lot of drama and an abusive mouth quite freely, but I haven't seen much real or quantitative substantiation of your statements.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

64. Yeah, why should you consider other theories when Uncle Miltie already explained everything to you.

BTW, it's kinda silly for you to talk about people being "abusive" when the tone of every one of your posts on this thread has been sneering and condescending and you call people "lazy". If we're so abusive and dramatic and have nothing substantive to say, then why don't you beat feet out of here?

[Citizen Number 9]

55. Hey, I just had an idea

Why don't you start a business and offer those high wages everyone always talks about?

No really. Pick a product or a service, and make it your life's work to pay all your employees a living wage.

Seriously. Why don'cha?

ALong the way you might develop some ideas or concepts that could really show the rest of us how to do it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

58. Okay, I get it, you're a Titan of Industry

You still haven't addressed what happens to the 98% of people who don't "make it". I mean, other than "It's the invisible hand of the free market!" "They should retrain themselves!"

Why don't you stick a sock in it with the corporate talking points? Pretty much no one here is drinking that Koolaid. If you want sound like a Republican, then be one.

[Citizen Number 9]

62. Get a grip

You don't know me. You would do better to spend more time discussing the issue and less worrying about what you imagine others are.

It would help if I knew what 98% you are referring to, exactly. It's my personal belief that substantially more than 2% of the American population is happy with what they have and do, and I think that would be easy to support using numbers readily available.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

63. You're right, I don't know you.

Just like you don't know the people you are calling "lazy". I am observing your behavior on this thread and concluding that you have some Republican attitudes.

[Citizen Number 9]

67. Again,

The term "lazy" must mean something pretty bad to you. I will reiterate that all the descriptive terms; lazy, smart, rich, stupid, tall are relative. There is always someone more and less something than you. About that there can be no disagreement.

Feel free to point out specifics so we can discuss them rather than using that broad brush you seem so fond of.

[neverforget]

73. What does lazy mean to you?

lazy from Merriams: disinclined to activity or exertion : not energetic or vigorous b: encouraging inactivity or indolence <a lazy summer day>.

[Citizen Number 9]

74. Let's try this....

"Lazy" means not doing enough to cover your personal responsibilities, whatever they are.

See that first part "disinclined to exertion"?

That's everybody to a degree, at least it describes me and I think it goes for others, too. But you deserve to actually get the label when you willingly fail to follow through on your responsibilities.

How about that?