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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 09:29 AM
Original message
The Left was right about the economy

It was us on the left who saw this coming. While 'conservatives' were doing everything they could to keep the lie going and the credit cards a' swiping.

Too many people put faith in the republican spin, and now they see how that spin allowed spending to get out of control.

And they now are beginning to see how the republicans lead the way dumping trillions of cash into overseas infrastructure while ignoring the problems at home.

And do they even thank us? No.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. The "left" is becoming more and more irrelevant in this country. The sooner we realize this,
the better off we will be as we abandon the futile efforts to shift the policies of the nation.

Better to simply concentrate on our own, individual lives.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. That's funny
that was satire, right?

I mean the Left just beat the pants off the pubbies in the last two (honest) elections!

We now control the policies of this nation. It is up to the Left to save this country, because the 'right' has abandoned it to cheap credit and foreign trade.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Who controls the policies of this nation? Certainly not the "left." Obama and his
center-right coalition will bring minimal improvement. If you think that liberals are going to have any significant say in the new administration, I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Already?
You are giving up, already?

We finally have our friends in power.
We finally have our friends in power.
We finally have our friends in power.

Don't give up, the fun is just beginning.
We, after 8 long years will finally be listened to with respect.


We finally have our friends in power.
We finally have our friends in power.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Come back to me when the troops are out of the ME; we ALL have health care; the economy
is structured for the benefit of all, not only the rich; ALL Americans have civil rights; the rule of law has been returned and the Bushie criminals are in prison and/or hanged.

Ain't gonna happen. "Our friends" have given every indication that they have no intention of accomplishing anything but a minor slowdown in the march toward full-blown fascism. They have really "listened to us with respect" so far, haven't they?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Heh
You remind me of the childrens' story about the one who was building a boat and could get no help.
But by Gawd, when the boat was built everyone wanted a ride.

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. "Obama is center-right" MY ASS.
I guess you missed that Atlantic Monthly article "The New Liberal Order" I posted about a month ago that mentioned that Rubin and Summers have shifted to the Left. Or maybe you are just a Naderite distruptor.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Why are you on DU?
You seem like you want to convince everyone to just give up. Concentrating solely on ourselves and not being politically involved has been the problem. Change can come if enough people get involved. We need more involvement, not less.

What you're suggesting is not what DU is about.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Let me be totally explicit so you will understand - I see no prospect for change by working
within the corrupt system that now runs this country. Especially with the center-right, or worse, group that is being created to run things after Jan. 20.

They will not push single-payer healthcare. They will not hold the Bushistas accountable for their crimes. They will not immediately end the war against the Middle East. They will not back full civil rights for all Americans. Even though the "left" contributed greatly to Obama's victory, our views are being ignored as Obama reaches out to those who actually voted against him for input and support. Will the fundies EVER accept gay Americans as full partners? Will the financial world ever accept limits on their actions to rip off the rest of us? Etc., etc., etc.

But Obama continues to kow-tow to the right wing, both in his own party and outside of it, in creating his administration.

If the left does not have a seat at the table, you do not get to make a request to the chef.

What I think can be done is for each of us to live our own lives according to the values we believe in. We can have no impact beyond our immediate existence. To waste time in empty and useless pursuits within the political realm is stupid and only legitimizes the system that does not respond to "the people" but only to those with wealth and power.

Blindly following the new boss will get us nothing because he has already cast his lot with the DLC and the GOP.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I do understand. You're saying that we should give up on trying to change things.
That's what I understood you to be saying the first time. I respectfully disagree.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. An individual can only change their own life, and the lives of people they directly interact with.
So, treat all people fairly. Be caring in your interactions with others. Act environmentally responsible. Do NOT contribute to the corrupt economic system to the limit of your capability (which means, you do not have to totally drop out (or die) to have a positive impact on energy and other eco areas).

But please do not have any illusion that the bosses in DC and on Wall Street will ever listen to you about how to run things. Does Barack take your phone calls? You DO NOT MATTER to them except for what you contribute to maintaining their control.

Now, if you are intending to really activate for real change, that is another matter.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. I almost agree.
The USA, and the world, faces a situation where the powers that be are inextricably woven into the fabric of our civilization. The degree of control they exercise is broad and deep, but the extent of it is largely imperceptible. Like fish in water, we swim through a social medium of hierarchy, power and coercive control without even recognizing it.

For those with a taste for the big picture, here's what I'm talking about. It's an excerpt from an article entitled Political Will, Political Won't. I wrote it initially about the global failure to address environmental concerns, but it's even more applicable to the financial crisis.

Guardian Institutions

As always happens with hierarchies, power flows uphill. Along with it go the perquisites of power, the most important being the right to higher levels of material abundance than those lower in the pecking order. To ensure that this comfortable situation is maintained, part of the accumulated social power is used to protect the situation. This is done by strongly defending the three preconditions set out above. The people to whom this power flowed quickly realized that the status quo is most easily maintained if the rest of the community sees this situation as the only possible way life can work, and any suggestions to the contrary are the result of either some nefarious agenda or outright insanity.

Over time an interlocking system of guardian institutions grew up to protect and defend the three key ideas of ownership, growth and hierarchy:

* Economic and financial institutions cooperate with business and industry to set the value of work and control the money supply (thereby controlling access to food). In this role it doesn't make any difference whether an economy is capitalist, socialist or communist. The core beliefs it guards are always the same: ownership and growth.
* Educational institutions teach successive generations how the system works, giving them the tools to integrate into it and manipulate it, while at the same time training them to see this as the only possible way the world can work.
* Communications media reinforce this message by enlisting people in the growth paradigm. They do this both through overt messages like advertising and covert messages embedded in the story lines of entertainment.
* Religious institutions (as distinct from the religions they purport to enshrine) are primarily normative social structures. Many incorporate an overt message that we should be content with things as they are. There are often injunctions against questioning authority, as all authority is seen to devolve from the supernatural – just as it did for the shamans of the early agricultural era.
* Legal institutions enforce the norms of ownership and hierarchy in ways too numerous to count. These range from the protection of privilege (one law for the rich, one for the poor) to the preferential defense of property rights over human rights.
* Political institutions sit at the tip of the pyramid. Political institutions encode, enshrine and manage the application of social power. Politics is the institution that legitimizes all the others. Because of its unique ability to make laws and its access to legalized violence to defend those laws, politics is the fullest expression of the power hierarchy of modern civilization.

Politics is the problem, not the solution

Politics, regardless of party or ideology, is part of the problem and can never be part of the solution. While it may be easier for the average person to live under the rule of a more humane parcel of rogues, at its heart politics is the primary guardian institution of modern civilization. The role of all politics is to manage power, and power is always managed for the benefit of the holders of power. It doesn't matter whether the power managers are Democrats, Republicans, Tories, Grits, Social Democrats, Communists or a military junta. They all fulfill the same role in service of the same beneficiaries.

In order to fulfill that role they unite with the other guardian institutions – the economic, industrial, legal, religious, educational and communications organizations. Together they create, maintain and guard a noetic milieu (a globalized intuitive, non-rational consciousness) in which any values that challenge the two fundamental preconditions to modern civilization are seen as incomprehensible, self-evidently absurd, dangerous or even insane. Since the primary value system these guardians protect is the paradigm of continuous material growth, the most dangerous of all radical ideas are any proposals to limit, halt or reverse that growth.

The guardian institutions are so firmly embedded in our global culture that it is ultimately fruitless to try and remove them from power by either direct or indirect confrontation. The penalties for trying this are severe and ruthlessly applied.

Conclusion

In light of this rather dismal assessment, is there any hope for a return to a sustainable, egalitarian, interconnected, considerate and just civilization? I strongly believe that there is, but getting there will be neither sure nor easy.

The institutions that stand between us and such a future are trapped by their dependence on the very paradigm they are sworn to protect. They defend the belief that permanent material growth is natural, possible and inevitable. While they defend that belief with laws, guns and television, ultimately their power comes from people who accept that premise. If people stop believing that such growth is possible the institutions' power declines, no matter how many defense mechanisms they engage. If growth falters, the people lose faith and the institutions crack and crumble.

Look back at the list of wicked problems. Every single one of them is the result of our growth encountering limits. While we may be able to figure out ways to temporarily circumvent some of these limits, the pattern is now clear. The growth of modern civilization is slowing down, and is even showing evidence of coming to a halt. For the guardian institutions that depend on growth for their very survival, this is like a diagnosis of terminal cancer.

What that means is that our guardian institutions will inevitably start losing their monolithic top-down power. This dis-integration will leave "cracks in the sidewalk of civilization". And just as grass grows through cracks in real concrete, small communities and individuals will start to appear through the metaphorical concrete of our industrial civilization.

No one can predict when, where or how the dis-integration will appear. It will take different forms in different places. The response of the guardians will probably be violently draconian in most cases. But there are places where communities have already formed in anticipation of such an opportunity. Like "Gaia's antibodies" they will work to heal the wounds, widen the cracks, and let the sunshine and fresh air revitalize the hidden earth. As the seed stock of the next phase of civilization they will spread their values on the wind.

I don't think we should ever stop pushing, but I do think that we should be realistic about our situation. If we are recognize the realities around us, we are more likely to find ways to shift them -- ways that are more effective than trying to battle an entrenched and well-organized enemy on its home turf by its own rules.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Trained as a sociologist, now doing behavioral cancer research, I appreciate your post.
I think for most Americans, the "system" is so unfathomable that they either (a) ignore its presence or (b) naively think they can influence it.

Evolution is, well, evolutionary. Only as each generation dies out and is replaced does incremental progress happen.

Revolution is the only method to bring about rapid change, especially in such a complicated and entrenched system as now exists. But that will not happen here unless conditions deteriorate to a disastrous degree. We are not there yet.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. I sadly agree
Nobody in DC has the slightest intention of making any real changes. It's all about who gets to be the money man with the US Treasury. None of them want to rock the party boat.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-08 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. He sure didn't take my phone calls
or emails about his voting for Condi Rice for Sec of State. (What was he thinking? ) I did not feel he was responsive as a Senator.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Heh
I've been told so many times that I was wasting my time trying to change things.
And I have proven them wrong again and again.

And then, when the change has come, they all wanted to share in the credit.
Such is life in the Left lane. That's ok, we can do this, with or without you, but we do it for you, too.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Stopped the wars, did you? I didn't notice. Unsnark response - maybe my pessimism and
cynicism is the yin to your blind faith yang that Obama will bring about a liberal heaven in America.

But, unlike the original Blind Faith, "God" is not in the new band.

Now, if Obama does turn around, listen to liberals and govern from the left, I will be the first to apologize. But I have no faith that he will do that. He has told us what he intends to do. A liberal agenda it ain't.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Uhm, yeah
We stopped the war on the Vietnamese people.
We kept us from launching a war on Russia.
We kept us out of Iran.
We put a lid on the Israeli/Palestinian problem.

Who do you think did all that? The right? Hah

What you have to realize is that we, the people on the left,
if we are successful, will make Obama bring on a liberal haven.
Just like Obama has said: "Make me do it".

And we will never give up trying. Right?
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. She may not have "stopped the war"...but she and those like her...
are the reason why that "arc of the moral universe" always
bends towards justice.

Hey, we do what we can.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. I think you can WORK to cause changes...
Edited on Wed Dec-24-08 02:22 PM by TwoSparkles
...while accepting and dealing with the reality that the poster is discussing.

I won't give up. Never.

However, anyone who has their eyes open--can clearly see that there are Dem neocons (DLC) and Republican
neocons (right-wing conservatives), and that a neocon cancer has infected and metastasized in our government.

They are beholden to their corporate masters--who enrich these politicians. It's a parasitic agreement. The
politicians churn out corporate-friendly legislation and the corporations reward the politicians with
money, power and campaign contributions. All of this, at the expense of the American people.

Many Democrats are aghast at how lily-livered the Democrats are, "Oh Harry Reid! Why are you so weak? Why
are you so afraid to stand up to George Bush?".

Hello. They're all playing for the same team. They've got different colored shirts on, but they are all
neocon corporatists. They're probably all blackmailing each other, and I'm sure the threats fly through
the air when one of them steps out of line.

The Dems have their hot-button social issues such as being pro choice, pro environment and pro education
and healthcare reform. However, these issues are used to cull votes and to create the appearance of differences
between the two parties. The conservatives have their religious issues, their pro-life advocacy and lower tax
stances. This red meat keeps the minions interested and duped into believing that we have a two-party
system. They think that if we're busy arguing about "God in schools" and "baby killers" that we won't notice
that our President has the legal authority to snatch us from our homes, detain us indefinitely, declare us
an "enemy combatant" and torture us. They think if we're busy slinging shots at Free Republic --that we won't
mind being illegally wiretapped in the name of patriotism.

They're all in on it, except for a handful of Democrats who are powerless and not allowed in the inner circle.

As for Obama, I think there's a strong possibility that he's an actual Progressive. He was in DC just long
enough to see the handwriting on the wall--but not long enough to be inextricably intertwined and bought off.

He may just be our saving grace. His appointments are mainly DLCers, but as I see it, the only way to eradicate
this malignancy is to deal with it head on. Political chemotherapy. Change comes from "the bottom up" remember?

Obama can push for change from within, but we've got to push for change from without--in order to squeeze this
disease out of our government.

It's likely that this is the reality--but facing it does not mean that you "give up" or sit on the sidelines.

It means you just fight harder.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. That is pretty much what the boomer generation did after
the antiwar movement disintegrated. Yippie=>Yuppie. Worked out well, huh?

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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Most did bail on "the movement" after the war ended and their asses were no longer on the line.
But maybe they were the more honest ones.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
25. You're in for a very taxing time. Get used to the idea.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think us Lefties have been right on just about everything:
energy policy, rights of gays and women, the war in Iraq, the role of government, health care, plus the economy.

I get really tired of being "right" and watching the world get destroyed.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Cheer up!
Some of us fought our asses off to get an honest vote, and the last two elections showed we are gaining on Diebold.

We now are in control for at least the next two years, or rather, our fellow Dems are. So, all we have to do is get our friends to listen to us.

And they will listen, because they recognize we do have the correct policy angles and foresight to
make our country become stronger and more peaceful.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. The democratic socialist left, in its various forms,
has been pretty much right about everything for the last 100-150 years or so. Not that this has mattered much. Being right, and being able to do anything about your right thoughts are two very different things.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. C'mon, don't be stupid (pun)
We have been successful. Very.

And now we have these tubes.
Remember the saying: The pen is mightier than the sword.
Well, these days we could say: The Internet is mightier than the sword.
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
20. Here we are
in the command economy I predicted two years ago and more.
I said the only thing that would drop the price of oil was a worldwide economic collapse.

Now, let's see if we can avoid a hot civil war.

I want to be two for three.
That's still winning.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
29. Reality has a Liberal bias. n/t.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
30. screw the left. get over it.
shut the fuck up.
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