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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 09:09 PM
Original message
What causes a depression !
And what fixes a depression.

You can see what got the Country into a depression in 29 and what got the country out of the depression !

Cutting the upper tax rates causes a depression !

Raising the upper tax rate ends a depression !

Look at this http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

Follow the tax rates and follow the economy ! !Historical rates (married couples, filing jointly)
Table
Tax year Top marginal
tax rate (%) Top marginal
tax rate (%) on
earned income,
if different<1> Taxable
income over--
77 1,000,000
1919 73 1,000,000
1920 73 1,000,000
1921 73 1,000,000
1922 58 200,000
1923 43.5 200,000
1924 46 500,000
1925 25 100,000
1926 25 100,000
1927 25 100,000
1928 25 100,000
1929 24 100,000 Depression
1930 25 100,000
1931 25 100,000
1932 63 1,000,000
1933 63 1,000,000
1934 63 1,000,000
1935 63 1,000,000
1936 79 5,000,000
1937 79 5,000,000
1938 79 5,000,000
1939 79 5,000,000
1940 81.1 5,000,000
1941 81 5,000,000
1942 88 200,000
1943 88 200,000
1944 94 <2> 200,000
1945 94 <2> 200,000
1946 86.45 <3> 200,000
1947 86.45 <3> 200,000
Graph
This graph is a plot of year (first column in the table) against the corresponding top marginal rate (second column in the table) (in blue). Where the top marginal rate on earned income differs (1971--1981), it is also plotted (in red).



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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. What if I told you that the portion of overall taxes collected
from the high income group doubled in the years leading up to the Depression?


I hope you didn't think they actually paid less.


Are you aware of the terms "Cause" and "Effect"?
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Do the patriotic thing and spend !
Just like then, the money by the wealthy is lying dormant

1920 73 1,000,000 Started dropping here at 73 %
1921 73 1,000,000
1922 58 200,000
1923 43.5 200,000
1924 46 500,000
1925 25 100,000
1926 25 100,000
1927 25 100,000
1928 25 100,000
1929 24 100,000 Depression Now the wealthy have all the noney and the economy freezes.

Get off the money and spend it. It is the patriotic thing to do !
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. "Get off the money and spend it" ?
No. Looks like it is time to "Pay the Piper", especially for those who overestimated their personal productivity.

We have one of the highest standards of living in the world, yet judging from so many angry things posted here, it is still not satisfactory.

People demand to work less and get more, more, more. In pursuit of that they spent money they didn't have, much less could possibly earn.

Cautious people warned for some time that it couldn't continue. And guess what? It couldn't.

A few lean years might actually readjust expectations.
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Highest standard if you look in your neighborhood ?
High living for those that have a lot of money. There are 12,000,000 unempoyed now. So yes for those that have it good it is good

but for those that have it bad it is bad. Rather myopic to say the least !
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. The United States - As a whole - average income - median income - individual income
"one of the highest standards of living in the world"

In my neighborhood.

Down the Road.

On the hill.

In the valley.

Even the poorest states are high with respect to the world.
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. to the best of our ability
As you said "few lean years might actually readjust expectations." Do you realize that people will die as a result of " a few

lean years " People will die !
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. You're losing it. Get a grip.
People will die tonight.

If you run down to the worst bar in town and give every intoxicated person a ride home right now, there is a good chance you can save a life.
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. that is a question that
that I would normally pose to you. And you would say that those people cho\ose to get drunk. The people that suffer economic hardship

don't choose to be placed in economic hardship. But then you would say that they chose their economic position.

I am taking a point for this one.

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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Well, that's how people usually get drunk, Chet.
In college I knew a fellow who got kicked out of University.

He didn't choose to get kicked out, but that's what happens when you don't go to class and subsequently fail your coursework. He must have been unlucky in this respect.

On second thought, I distinctly recall a Freshman orientation where this process was outlined to us. Can't exactly remember if he attended, though.
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. He did chose to get kicked out
the same way that a drunk driver can get convicted of vehicular homicide.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Why would you think that?
Ferdinand Lundberg "The Rich and the Super-Rich"..available for free download due to it's copyright expiration here:
http://www.soilandhealth.org/index.html

Tax-Free Fortune Building

Until the passage of the income-tax amendment to the Constitution in 1913, and the subsequent estate tax, the big industrial proprietors were virtually tax free, subject after the Civil War mainly to minor local real estate taxes. The biggest fortunes--among them Du Pont, Mellon, Rockefeller--were all largely amassed in the tax-exempt era. Corporation lawyers, such as Rockefeller's Joseph H. Choate, fought with every legal and political means at their disposal against the imposition of even a token income tax, which they correctly sensed might be the opening wedge to heavier taxes.

What it became, finally, was a siphon gradually inserted into the pocketbooks of the general public. Imposed to popular huzzas as a class tax, the income tax was gradually turned into a mass tax in a jiu-jitsu turnaround. Thus it provided the pubpols with the present stupendous sums for reckless overspending in the areas of defense (Over-Kill) and the letting of lucrative construction contracts in the sacred names of education, medicine, housing and public welfare. Consequently, as far as disposable moneys at their fingertips are concerned, the pubpols are now on a basis of approximate parity with the finpols. Whereas in 1939 only 4 million people paid income taxes, and in 1915 only 2 million did, today more than 46 million do so--truly a case of turning the tax tables on the lowly!

Nearly all of the revenue, moreover--86 per cent of it--comes from the lower brackets, from the initial rate that all must pay, which is the lion's share of the $41 billion taken from individual incomes in 1960. The so-called "progressive" rates leading into the high brackets contribute only 14 per cent. 8 The politicians will never willingly give up this Golconda.

Differently put, the less than 1 per cent of the individuals who own upward of 70 per cent of productive property throw only 14 per cent into the tax caldron as their distinctive, differentiated contribution, while their own publications metronomically salute them as pillars of society. It is truly a piece of sleight-of-hand that would have been the envy of the French Bourbons. In the United States, as it has been said, if you steal you will be hailed as a great man, provided you steal everything in sight.

To get this one-sided tax burden off the backs of the common people will, one suspects, require a political upheaval of first-class dimensions. Nothing less would do it. For the pubpols, with the constant self-sustaining threat of defensive warfare on the one hand (neither Vietnam, Lebanon, Guatemala, Cuba nor the Dominican Republic attacked the United States) and the convenient excuse of profitable open-ended welfare on the other (the Great Society), can now work an oscillating double-pronged assault on the patriotic low-income man. It should always be remembered that the higher incomes pay for little of all this. They merely increase.

In general, the higher the income in the $10,000 and upward class of income receivers, comprising no more than 10 per cent of all taxpayers, the more lucrative tax privileges and absolute exemptions are progressively enjoyed. As one moves into the top 1 per cent of income receivers (the $25,000-plus class) the exemptions become still greater until in the top 2/10ths of 1 per cent (the $50,000-plus class) the exemptions and disparities become boldly and, in a presumably enlightened age, ludicrously profligate. The greater the income, the greater the legal tax exemption--up to 100 per cent. Conversely, the smaller the income the greater the proportion of taxes it pays, mainly through tax-loaded prices of goods and services among very small incomes.

Taxation is a complex subject and will be dealt with here in as compressed and clear a fashion as possible.
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Well, for one thing,
I don't reference books published over 40 years ago for my facts.

Go read up on actual history. Get some facts.

Try to stay away from the long partisan editorials that help you figure out what you should believe. They aren't too well balanced.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Perhaps you should read the book..
Edited on Fri Jan-09-09 10:28 PM by stillcool47
before you start spouting off. I guess you're not familiar with it. Too bad. Funny how you suggest reading history, when you obviously haven't bothered.
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Don't need to.
The quote you selected from it has no real bearing on what you responded to.

You referenced the status of the tax system over 40 years ago when we were discussing 1920's economy. If there is something you feel we should read, maybe you should post that passage for us.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yes...I can see that 'you don't need to'
Edited on Fri Jan-09-09 10:46 PM by stillcool47
where does your information come from, regarding the taxation rate you made reference to? I feel that you should read the entire book..but here's a little something to whet your appetite.

The Statistical Setting

The setting of our story is of necessity statistical. And statistics have the merit of being succinct. I am aware, however, that many readers cannot face statistics, a fact that leads seasoned editors to advise writers to dispense with them or to hide them in the back of the book. Apparently childhood encounters with arithmetic under inferior school conditions have developed in many people (even the cultivated) a distaste for numbers, and when they see them they merely skip. But it will repay readers to study and ponder carefully the following figures.

While good studies have been made for some decades, three recent high-level inquiries have developed the picture in sharper and more exact detail than ever before. They represent a long series of analyses of the extent and concentration of American wealth that was begun by G. K. Holmes in 1893. These analyses, showing greater and greater precision with the passing years, are listed in the chapter notes. 5

The three recent studies were made, independently, by Professor Robert J. Lampman of the University of Wisconsin for the National Bureau of Economic Research, by the Survey Research Center of the University of Michigan as a continuing project in 1947, 1952, 1956, 1960 and 1963; and by the Harvard historian Gabriel Kolko as presented in his Wealth and Power in America (1962). I will touch upon these, as well as a resounding official clincher, in this order.

Running to 286 pages, containing 138 formidable tables and 37 charts (including 13 Lorenz curves) and employing the most sophisticated applicable mathematics, the Lampman study was published by Princeton University Press in 1962. 6

What Professor Lampman did was to obtain basic data from federal estate tax returns for the years 1922, 1929, 1933, 1939, 1945, 1949, 1953 and in some cases for 1954 and 1956; but he concentrated attention on 1953. Such tax returns are required by law of all decedents with estates exceeding the level of exemption, which was $50,000 for 1922-26, $100,000 for 1926-32, $50,000 for 1932-35, $40,000 for 1935-42 and $60,000 after 1942.

With the data in hand, Professor Lampman then employed the established estate-multiplier method. This requires that one multiply the number and property of decedents in each age-sex group by the inverse of the general mortality rate for each such group. One thereby arrives at an estimate of living persons and the amount of estate in each age-sex group and in each estate size.

Professor Lampman illustrates the method as follows: "Suppose that out of a population of 1,000 men aged 40 to 50, two men died in one year with estates of $100,000 or more. Suppose further that it is known that 5 per cent of all the 1,000 men aged 40 to 50 died in that year. Then it may be assumed that the two men who died with $100,000 were 5 per cent of all the living men in the group with $100,000. Hence, to estimate the number of living men with $100,000, we should multiply two by twenty (the inverse of 5 per cent) to get the answer of forty living men with $100,000 or more."7



The Lampman Findings

What Lampman found was as follows:

1. More than 30 per cent of the assets and equities of the personal sector of the economy (about 20 per cent of all wealth in the country being government-owned) in 1953 was held by 1.6 per cent of the adult population of 103 million.8

2. This group of 1.6 per cent owned 32 per cent of all privately owned wealth, consisting of 82.2 per cent of all stock, 100 per cent of state and local (tax-exempt) bonds, 38.2 per cent of federal bonds, 88.5 per cent of other bonds, 29.1 per cent of the cash, 36.2 per cent of mortgages and notes, 13.3 per cent of life insurance reserves, 5.9 per cent of pension and retirement funds, 18.2 per cent of miscellaneous property, 16.1 per cent of real estate and 22.1 per cent of all debts and mortgages.9

3. The following table shows the percentage of national wealth-holdings for the top 1/2 of 1 per cent and 1 per cent for the indicated years.10

1/2 of 1 Per Cent 1 Per Cent
of Adult Population of Adult Population
(per cent) (per cent)

1922 29.8 31.6
1929 32.4 36.3
1933 25.2 28.3
1939 28.0 30.6
1945 20.9 23.3
1949 19.3 20.8
1953 22.7 24.2
1954 22.5 ....
1956 25.0 26.0

4. The estimated gross estate size for the total adult population in 1953, obtained by extension of the same methods, was as follows:11

Gross Estate Number of Average Total Gross
Size (dollars) Persons Aged Estate Size Estate
20 and Over (dollars) (billion
(millions) Percentage dollars) Percentage

0 to 3,500 51.70 50.0 1,800 93.1 8.3
3,500-10,000 19.00 18.4 6,000 114.0 10.2
10,000-20,000 21.89 21.2 15,000 328.4 29.3
20,000-30,000 6.00 5.8 25,000 150.0 13.4
30,000-40,000 2.00 1.9 35,000 70.0 6.3
40,000-50,000 0.80 0.8 45,000 36.0 3.2
50,000-60,000 0.35 0.3 55,000 19.3 1.7

All under 101.74 98.4 7,900 810.8 72.4
60,000

60,000-70,000 0.18 0.1 61,000 10.5 0.9

over 60,000 1.66 1.6 186,265 309.2 27.6

All estate 103.40 100.0 10,800 1,120.0 100.0
sizes

Median estate size 3,500

In this table is found one verification of my initial paragraph. It shows that 50 per cent of the people, owning 8.3 per cent of the wealth, had an average estate of $1,800--enough to cover furniture, clothes, a television set and perhaps a run-down car. Most of these had less; many had nothing at all. Another group of 18.4 per cent, adding up to 68.4 per cent of the population, was worth $6,000 on the average, which would probably largely represent participation in life insurance or emergency money in the bank. Perhaps this percentage included some of the select company of "people's capitalists" who owned two or three shares of AT&T.

Another 21.89 per cent of adults, bringing into view 92.59 per cent of the population, had $15,000 average gross estates--just enough to cover a serious personal illness. This same 92-plus per cent of the population all together owned only 47.8 per cent of all assets.



Top Wealth-Holders

The number of persons in the top 1 per cent of wealth-holders through the decades was as follows:12

Years Number of Persons Percentage Share
(thousands) of Gross Estates

1922 651 32
1929 744 38
1939 855 33
1945 929 26
1949 980 22
1953 1,030 25



But the top 11 per cent of persons in the magic 1 per cent (or 0.11 per cent) held about 45 per cent of the wealth of this particular group while the lower half (or 0.50 per cent) held only 23 per cent.13

Says Lampman: "The personally owned wealth of the total population in 1953 amounted to about $1 trillion. This means that the average gross estate for all 103 million adults was slightly less than $10,000, The median would, of course, be considerably lower. In contrast the top wealth-holder group had an average gross estate of $182,000. The majority of this top group was clustered in estate sizes below that average. Of the 1.6 million top wealth-holders, over half had less than $125,000 of gross estate and less than 2 per cent (27,000 persons) had more than $1 million."14

There were, then, in excess of 27,000 millionaires in the country in 1953--not only the greatest such aggregation at one time in the history of the world but a number greater than the aggregation throughout all of history before 1875 (as of 1966, millionaires numbered about 90,000). If consumer prices had remained stable from 1944 to 1953 there would have been fewer. "In 1944 there were 13,297 millionaires," says Lampman. "In 1953 there were 27,502 millionaires in 1953 prices, but only 17,611 in 1944 prices."15

What of the 1965-67 year-span? As the prices of stocks advanced tremendously in the preceding dozen years, one can only conclude that the proportion of wealth of the top wealth-holders also advanced impressively. For this small group, as we have seen, owns more than 80 per cent of stocks. The Dow-Jones average of 65 industrial stocks stood at 216.31 at the end of 1950; at 442.72 in 1955; at 618.04 in 1960; and at 812.18 in March, 1964. As of May, 1965, it was well above 900. The less volatile Securities and Exchange Commission index of 300 stocks shows the same quadrupling in value, standing at 41.4 in 1950; 81.8 in 1955; 113.9 in 1960; and 160.9 in March, 1964. How many employees have experienced a fourfold increase in salaries in the same period?

The rise in value of stocks, however, surely invalidates one of Lampman's speculations, to this effect: "Our finding that the share of wealth held by the top 2 per cent of families fell from about 33 to 29 per cent from 1922 to 1953, or about one-eighth, would seem compatible with . . . the general belief that there has been some lessening of economic inequality in the United States in recent decades."16 The more recent rise in stock prices and in corporation earnings shatters even that slight concession.

Professor A. A. Berle, Jr., has rushed forward to hail the Lampman showing that the upper 1 per cent saw its participation reduced from 32 per cent of all wealth in 1922 to 25 per cent in 1953; but his celebration was premature and he did not fully report Lampman, who indicated that the participation had been reduced from 1922 to 1949 but thereafter was again increasing.17

The Lampman findings were extended to 1958 in an extremely sophisticated statistical critique presented in 1965 to the American Statistical Association by James D. Smith and Staunton K. Calvert of the Statistics Division of the Internal Revenue Service.18

After reviewing Lampman, revising him in a minor particular, Smith and Calvert conclude that "top wealth-holders owned 27.4 percent of gross and 28.3 percent of net prime wealth in 1953, but increased their share to 30.2 and 32.0 percent respectively by 1958. These data support Lampman's conclusion that the share of top wealth-holders has been increasing since 1949." Prime wealth, as they explain, is total wealth less the value of assets in trust funds and pension reserves.

This is where the question rests on the basis of the most recent data supplied by leading authorities in the field: Concentration of wealth in a few hands is intensifying.

Actually, in view of market valuations, the share of top wealth-holders at this writing is easily the greatest in history. It is my hypothesis that the share of the top 1/2 of 1 per cent now exceeds the 32.4 per cent of this group for 1929. Later studies should show that the proportions for all groups of top wealth-holders studied by Lampman have been significantly exceeded. So much for Lampman although there is much else in his razor'-sharp book that merits attention.19



The University of Michigan Study

Although showing some minor variations, the continuing University of Michigan survey dovetails with the Lampman study and fully supports it.

First, it was found that 3 per cent of spending units in 1953 had $60,000 or more total assets; this compares with 2.3 per cent of individuals in the Lampman study. A "spending unit" consisted of any one or more persons established as a household.

According to this University of Michigan "Survey of Consumer Finances," the upper 11 per cent of the nation's 54 million spending units held 56 per cent of the total assets and 60 per cent of the net worth of all private holdings in the country. "While this group held only 30 per cent of consumer capital," Lampman comments (p. 195), they held 80 per cent of business and investment assets." 20

According to the 1960 University of Michigan "Survey of Consumer Finances," 86 per cent of all spending units in the country owned no stock whatever. Of incomes under $3,000, 95 per cent owned no stock; of incomes of $3,000-$5,000, 93 per cent owned no stock; and of incomes of $5,000-$7,500, 87 per cent owned no stock. The class of $7,500-$10,000 incomes was 78 per cent without stock ownership, while even in the $10,000-$15,000 income class 61 per cent owned no stock. In 1963 a total of 83 per cent owned no stock. Stock ownership, it is clear, was being somewhat more widely diffused as long-term holders gradually unloaded at rising prices. Whereas in 1953 only 44 per cent of the income class above $15,000 owned no stock, in 1960 this same broad class included only 26 per cent without stock ownership.21

For some years the New York Stock Exchange and the Advertising Council, as part of a campaign to show that a "people's capitalism" exists with a widely diffused ownership in American industry, have been busily pyramiding figures. These computations show that in 1956 there were 8,630,000 American shareholders, and in 1962 there were 17,010,000.22 The figure more recently being cited is 20 million .23

Even though the method of their compilation is challenged by statisticians, these computations could all be true and still not after the implications of the Lampman analysis and University of Michigan surveys. For if 17 per cent of spending units owned stock in 1963, as the University of Michigan survey indicates, that would be well over 17 million persons. And anyone would qualify as a stockholder if he owned only one share worth 10 cents.

That most stockholders own trivial amounts of stock is shown by the University of Michigan figures for 1963. The 17 per cent of spending units holding stock broke down in this way: 3 per cent held less than $500 worth; 2 per cent held $500 to $999 worth; 4 per cent held $1,000 to $4,999 worth; and 2 per cent held $5,000 to $9,999 worth. As far as stock ownership goes, these are all insignificant figures. Yet they make up 75 per cent of the households holding stock. Only 4 per cent of all spending units owned more than $10,000 of stock.24 But most of this group, exceeding four million people, also owned little stock; for we are already aware that a group consisting of 1.6 per cent of the population owns more than 80 per cent of all stock, 100 per cent of state and local government bonds and 88.5 per cent of corporate bonds. Less than 20 per cent of all stock in 1963, then, was owned by some 15.4 million people.

Throughout this study, therefore, it is going to be taken as fully established that 1.6 per cent of the adult population own at least 32 per cent of all assets, and nearly all the investment assets, and that 11 per cent of households (following the University of Michigan study) own at least 56 per cent of the assets and 60 per cent of the net worth. It is even possible, as we have seen, that 1/2 of 1 per cent own more than one-third of all productive assets as of 1965-67. It is evident that this leaves very little to be apportioned among 90 per cent of the population. It will be recalled that Lampman showed 50 per cent owning virtually nothing, with an average estate size of only $1,800 as of 1953. This same study, according to my tabulation numbered 4, showed that 89.6 per cent of the adult population had available to it only 47.8 per cent of the assets, while 50 per cent had only 8.3 per cent. The University of Michigan figures and the Lampman figures, in short, coincide rather closely although developed by different methods.



Supporting Studies

Every other serious study supports these findings. The Senate Temporary National Economic Committee (TNEC) just before World War II inquired into the distribution of stock among 8.5 million shareholders in 1,710 major companies as of 1937-39 and found that 4 per cent of all common stockholders held 74.9 per cent of the stock, and 4.5 per cent of the preferred stockholders held 54.8 per cent. 25 Looking into the same situation as of 1951, the Brookings Institution of Washington, D. C., found that in 2,991 major corporations only 2.1 per cent of the holders owned 58 per cent of the common stock and 1.1 per cent of the holders owned 46 per cent of the preferred stock. Two-thirds of all common stockholders owned only 10 per cent of the shares.26 Harvard's J. Keith Butters estimated that in 1949 the spending units (households) that owned $100,000 or more in marketable stock, comprising 1 /5 of 1 per cent of all spending units and 2 per cent of stockholders owned between 65 and 71 per cent of all marketable stock held by individuals.27 None of these studies took into account the beneficial interest of individuals in stock held by institutions for the account of individuals, which swells the percentages proportionately.

The Lampman estate studies do not necessarily reveal the sizes of fortunes. 'This is because many of the fortunes are systematically distributed during the lifetime of the owner, mainly for the benefit of heirs. At the time of death the fortune is reduced.

Again, in extrapolating from the estates to the rest of the population, at least two distortions are discernible. First, only adults are considered by Lampman, whereas a considerable number of children are millionaires owing to having had trust funds settled upon them. Second, the economic position of age groups is not strictly comparable between the affluent and the poor because of an average earlier death rate for the latter.

But, on the whole, the Lampman study came closer than anyone had yet come to showing the asset position of all adult age-sex groups.



Definitive Data from the Federal Reserve

Strongly persuasive though all these studies are, it is possible to be definitive about the distribution of wealth in the United States, on the basis of findings put forth recently under the highest official auspices.

In a complex and comprehensive study prepared for the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System on the basis of Census Bureau data under the title Survey of Financial Characteristics of Consumers, the cold figures are officially presented on asset holdings as of December 31, 1962, removing the entire subject from the realm of pettifogging debate.

On that date the number of households in the country worth $500,000 or more was carefully computed at about 200, 000.28 The number of millionaires at the year-end was more than 80,000, compared with Lampman's 27,000 as of 1953. Only 39 per cent of these 200,000 had no inherited assets. 29 These 200,000 at the time held 22 per cent of all wealth, while 57 per cent of the wealth was held by 3.9 million individual consumer units worth $50,000 or more.

The panorama of wealth-holding throughout the populace was as follows (in millions of units):30

Percentage of
Millions Households
All consumer units
(households) 57.9 100.0

Size of wealth:
Negative 1.0 1.8
Zero 4.7 8.0
$1-$999 9.0 16.0
$1,000-$4,999 10.8 18.0
$5,000-$9,999 9.1 16.0
$10,000-$24,999 13.3 23.0
$25,000-$49,999 6.2 11.0
$50,000-$99,999 2.5 5.0
$100,000-$199,999 .7 1.25
$200,000-$499,999 .5 Less than 1.0
$500,000 and up .2 Less than 0.4

In stating that 200,000 households held 22 per cent of the wealth there is some danger of suggesting that the power of these 200,000 is less than it actually is. The nature of the wealth held is of determining importance here. in general, the lower wealth-holders mostly own inert assets such as automobiles, small amounts of cash and some residential equity, while the upper wealth-holders mostly own corporate equities in an aggregate amount sufficient to show that they are in full control of the productive side of the economic system.

Households in the number of 200,000 worth $500,000 and more held 32 per cent of all investment assets and 75 per cent of miscellaneous assets, largely trust funds, while 500,000 worth $200,000 to $499,999 held 22 per cent of investment assets. The 700,000 households worth $100,000 to $199,999 held 11 per cent of investment assets.31


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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. This is about estate taxes.
I haven't found too much utility in reading long-winded passages from earnest people who have an agenda.


I got my numbers from the IRS source, , but this might work better for you


http://books.google.com/books?id=_0UqxH-5fdkC&pg=PA314&lpg=PA314&dq=treasury+statistics+of+income+1920+1929&source=web&ots=6yhporddMh&sig=YAM7w3hknTpm7WxEDpTLVs36CLU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result

See Table 47
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. No this is about 'taxes'..
and the book you linked to was written in 1963..40 years old and all:crazy: ... and where oh where, is the 'estate' tax, you refer to? You have the agenda. I just have some truth, and a very good book I am recommending. I'm sorry that you did not get the gist of my providing some of the statistical studies that Lundberg used as sources. I mistakenly thought it might clear up your problem with distrusting an accurate portrayal of the tax policies of our country.
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Did you notice that Table 47 was directly from an IRS pub?
That's real data. Hard numbers, not some rambling about putting together some questionable correlations using 1953, 1960 and goodness knows what else.

We were talking about the years 1919 and leading up to the Depression and the effect of decreasing tax rates on the Depression. Feel free to participate.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Give it up...
"We" were talking about "Your" statement that "the overall taxes collected from the 'high' income group doubled in the years leading up to the Depression". You have failed, and you lie.
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Read the table I put right in front of your eyes.
Edited on Sat Jan-10-09 02:27 AM by Citizen Number 9
If you can't do that, see Post #18 for the "summary".
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. percent paid increased
but not enough to pay the bills. That is why we had the depression of 29 and that is why we may have another depression. Credit

liquidity. The money is not being spent. It has to be spent. What is the point of amassing fortunes to the detriment of the country

and the world. What is the point ? Other than inflation, there is a fixed amount of money. If it is piled up in some private

fortunes it had to come from other private misfortunes.
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Chet! In 1920, the lowest income group paid 15% of the total
Edited on Fri Jan-09-09 11:45 PM by Citizen Number 9
In 1929 after decreasing tax rates, that had gone down to 0.45% - over 30X lower!

The highest earners went from paying 30% of the total to 60%!
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. but
the amount of real dollars paid wet down. The total revenue for the government went down. If Obama reduces the amount of taxes paid to zero of everybody but the wealthiest tax payers, then the wealthiest will pay 100% of the taxes, but it ain't enough to pay the bills of the country. You have to raise the taxes on the wealthy to spread the wealth. If you let the wealthiest off the tax hook the economy will become stagnant. Like what is happening now. Bo money for jobs. They put money in the stock market, but this was secondary money. This was trading of stocks between stock holders. It infused no money into the companies. There is no way out of tis mess other than buying out. So maybe Obama is going to do this big tax cut to show that it doesn't work, Then he will have to institute a huge tax increase. Do USAmericans have enough money in savings to pay off the debt and start a recovery. You know the USA debt is everybody's debt. Even the guy's that wants to pack up and leave before they can get his money.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. Citizen Number 9 please return to your basement. We are tired of you defending
bush and the republicons. We have better things to do then read your republicon talking points.

You lost - get over it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. So post a link to support your arbitrary and ridiculous statements.
Or better yet return to the Free Republic and confer with the rest of the McCain and Palin losers.
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Try reading some of the other posts
Edited on Sat Jan-10-09 11:08 AM by Citizen Number 9
before you embarrass yourself again.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. Just ignore Citizen Number 9 he is an escapee from the Free Republic
and does not know what he says.
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. Have never been to 'Free Republic'
We need to think very carefully about exactly which one of us doesn't know what he's saying.
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angryfirelord Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
21. Not quite
It's a bit more complicated than raising or lowering taxes. The main problem that set off the first depression was that the Federal Reserve pumped up the money supply in the 20s only to immediately shut it off in '29 when inflation got to extreme levels. That shock rippled through the economy and set us on a downward spiral. So the first problem is that the Fed played games with the currency. That's why gold was popular in the Depression, partly because FDR banned it and also due to the currency's devaluation.

Second, a lot of DUers attribute Hoover's policies as a failure of the free market. This is simply not true. Hoover cut taxes in the 20s, but ramped them up significantly in the early 30s. If you're trying to stimulate growth, the last thing you want to do is punish success. Even FDR blasted Hoover for his reckless taxation and spending.

Finally, the government simply doesn't spend money as well as businesses can. Subsidies end up going to billionaire corporations while bureaucrats seem to get more stupid each day. The New Deal did put people to work, but it didn't create a permanent solution. It only retained certain jobs in the low end sector. In today's economy, we have a lot more diverse fields along with a lot more people who participated in higher education. Paying someone to dig a hole isn't going to cut it, nor will it ever have any chance of stimulating an economy.

If you want to look at why we're in a recession, it's because business is drying up. Businesses have to cut the load in order to survive. They're getting fewer customers at their doors. What you should look to do is cutting the corporate tax rate or even look to abolishing income taxes altogether for something like a FairTax. You want to make it attractive for businesses to do business in America, not the other way around. Saying that we should raise taxes isn't going to work because the tax code is so damn complex, so you'll just be creating more loopholes. Make the tax code simple, make it easy to understand, and most importantly, make it fair.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Tax rates may just be a sideshow
If it's true that the First Depression was caused by first pumping and then restricting the money supply then we should be doubly worried this time, because that's exactly what's happening again, only on a much vaster scale. The bubble-shaped inflation of the global electronic money supply (aka debt/credit) followed by the current precipitous deleveraging creates exactly the same scenario. Given that this is happening on a global bases, jiggering the American tax rates (though that may assuage some peoples' sense of justice denied) will make precisely no difference to how this all unfolds. It can't affect our entry into the depression, as that's already underway. I doubt whether it can play much role in either mitigation or recovery either, since the problem is global and American tax revenues are of a different order of magnitude from the money at risk.
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angryfirelord Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. True
If the money supply is the problem, then you're right, tax rates won't do a thing. What frightens me is that this time Bernanke has put the gas petal to the floor, so when inflation starts to hit us in a month or two, the sudden impact is going to be quite strong. We may have no choice but to brace ourselves for it and hope that the government doesn't dole out more bailouts. In my opinion, both political parties really don't give a damn about what happens to us.
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. So, exactly What do you think will cause inflation to hit us
"in a month or two"?

Right now, no money is chasing lots of goods. I don't see how people are going to get money that fast.
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angryfirelord Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. The creation of money out of thin air
Running the printing presses is bound to have a side effect, especially with all the money that's been given towards the bailouts. Regardless if it actually does anything with the economy, that extra paper is going to devalute the currency. Gold has already begun to rally from the low 700s to 852 in a period of 2 months, which simply makes the dollar worse against a global market.
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Okay, and a couple months before that, Gold was at $900
And a couple months before that it was poking at a high of $1,000.

So, where do you think Gold is going now?

You do realize that a tremendous amount of wealth vanished recently, don't you?

Do you think we've put much more back than went away?
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Isn't this verging on a conspiracy theory?
I mean, either the money pumpers made this "mistake" after knowing what happened back in the 1920's or they did it on purpose, right?
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
24. Cost of doing business
"You want to make it attractive for businesses to do business in America, not the other way around" The single factor contributing

the most to the of production is environmental regulations. That hurts the USA because nobody else does it to the extent that we do.
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