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2009 Economy Outlook - Severe Recession, But Not a Depression

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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 02:57 PM
Original message
2009 Economy Outlook - Severe Recession, But Not a Depression

2008 was the year that collatorised debt obligations wiped out the capital bases of the west's biggest banks, which played itself out during September 2008 following the china syndrome chain reaction that followed the Lehman's (LEHMQ.PK) bust that led to the unprecedented actions of capital injections and nationalisation of too big to fail banks that looks set to continue for the whole of 2009 and beyond. The crisis had been festering and growing since the August 2007 interbank market freeze due to flawed and some could say fraudulent mark to market valuation of worthless over leveraged mortgage backed CDOs.

The time bomb continued to tick under the bankrupt banks - how long could the banks hide the truth from the market that they were insolvent? The article of September 9th (BANKRUPT Banks Wiped Out by Tulip Backed Securities, Is China Cheap?) in response to email queries of "should I buy banks now?" , clearly pointed out that banks should be avoided as the banking crisis had yet to hit the financial markets let alone the economies which were also soon expected to fall off the edge of the cliff as the second phase of the credit crisis kicked into gear. Meanwhile the more asset prices fell, the more loss making illiquid positions forced more asset sales and therefore more deleveraging, which culminated in the crash of 2008. Deleveraging is not over and therefore suggests much lower asset prices during 2009.

Key Lesson from 2008

The key lesson from 2008 is that no matter how bad you thought things could get, they in fact got a lot worse in every respect, from the stock market panic of September / October 2008 to the financial system that came to the very edge of armageddon. This leads me to believe that being an optimist during 2009 could prove to be a fatal mistake, whilst the world is not going to end, well hopefully not, what it does mean is that the financial and economic crisis will get a lot worse and therefore which means much lower stock prices during the course of the year.

So no matter how bad 2008 was, 2009 could still be worse!

The Paradox of Deficit Spending Bailouts and Stimulus Packages

I may be wrong in my thinking here but there appears to be a huge paradox at the heart of the stimulus packages and banking system bailouts aimed at generating economic activity and this is that the record amounts of new government debt issued has the effect of soaking up liquidity from the financial system i.e. the US is expected to issue $2 trillion of treasury bonds during 2009, how much of that $2 trillion would have gone into main street ? Therefore this implies that whilst the public expects huge and highly inefficient stimulus packages to impact on the economy. However at the same time the deficit spending is quietly draining the financial system of liquidly, therefore main street by the end of 2009 will be wondering why the trillion dollar deficits have had no impact on the economy. This also implies bond prices will fall, despite deflation.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/116371-2009-economy-outlook-severe-recession-but-not-a-depression

UNLESS....There's a black swan event!

Then there are the Black Swan events of which there were many during 2008, events that cannot be allowed for by their nature that tend to rip forecasts apart. In 2008 one of the key events was the Russian invasion of Georgia that set the ball rolling for a collapse in the Russian stock market that had previously held up remarkably well. Therefore there will be many black swan events during 2009 that will severely impact on financial market trends, which makes forecasting of markets that are more susceptible to black swan events such as crude oil for example being impacted by an attack against Iran's nuclear infrastructure (highly improbable but not impossible). However should it occur, then that would immediately negate the existing forecast.
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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. We must be in a mental depresion then
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. You Heard Phil Gram - Stop Your Damn Whining!
eom
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. I hate that prick
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. "2008 Outlook: Slowdown, But No Recession"

Ah, those were optimistic times, no?

Subprime was "contained," the economy's fundamentals were "strong," and anyone expressing misgivings was an unpatriotic doom-lover who wanted 'Merica to fail.

Yee fuckin ha. :(

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm afraid that's a little sunnier than I think the real situation is.
All the really toxic mortgages written toward the end of the real estate bubble will be resetting through the summer of 2010. Many of them have already defaulted due to plummeting prices and people walking away and mailing the keys to the bank, but quite a few are still out there, homeowners hanging on by their fingernails and paying interest only and teaser ARMs until they are forced to stop by the resets.

The only debate right now is about how heavily that second shoe of mortgage defaults will be when it drops. Institutional investors have been looking at their balance sheets and panicking, not knowing which exotic "structured investment vehicles" are sound and which are bum jumbo loans in Florida and California. In with that is a lot of now uncollectable business debt as businesses go under due to lack of clientele.

By midsummer, 2010, we'll be able to say either it's a depression needing desperate measures or it's a deep recession needing mostly a mopup, a few social programs, and a massive restructuring and heavy regulation of the financial sector. I think we're all hoping for the latter.

However, until then, we simply won't know.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I agree. But I got called a doomsayer for posting something today...
So I thought I'd try to be cheery!

O8)
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You are not a doomsayer...
You're one of DU's most valuable, and I always look
forward to the informative articles that you take the
time to post, and your insightful comments.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. Yep. Joanne98 and Crewleader
Between the two of them I keep up to speed on economics.
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Doomsayer. Not even.
If there is a fire in the gym and you yell fire, you are a hero. And the whole country is starting to burn.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. You couldn't possibly be as gloomy as I am
on the worst day of your life.
:evilgrin:
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. We must remember...
Edited on Sun Jan-25-09 03:41 PM by TwoSparkles
...that the MSM was hesitant about defining our current economic situation as a "recession", until just a few short months ago.

It took them until October 08 to even label it a recession. Don't want to scare the consumers into
stopping their daily trips to the strip malls, now do we?

The people who predict this nonsense have one goal--to shape public opinion about the economy--in order
to keep the worker bees (that's us) from saving their money.

Seventy percent of our US economy is consumerism. We don't make anything any more, because the politicians
have allowed our tax loopholes and laws to favor outsourcing. They don't want to do the hard work of getting
jobs back here and forcing corporations to stay in the US--so they demand that consumer spending to prop
up this house of cards.

They're trying to put a sunny face on a monster, at this point. They want us all out shopping again.

I've grown weary of these manipulations. I've grown weary of our government treating us like slaves
who must fuel their dysfunctional and twisted view of how our economy should run. We're supposed
to work--buy "stuff" and put it on 23 percent credit cards in order to prop up the corporations that
have a stranglehold on this country. We're not supposed to save or make wise financial decisions
for our family and our futures. We're supposed to whore it up and be mall sluts--giving most of
our money to the pimp corporations--as we're left in debt and in chains.

It's exactly like a pimp/prostitute relationship.

I won't do it anymore. I won't listen to the MSM tell me that everything is hunky dory, and then
run out and buy vases and martini pitchers at Pier One--because the corporations have given me the
'all clear signal', "Ok, time to stop saving money and being responsible! Get out there and spend
your future away!"

I want more out of life. I think we all do.
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Agreed
Edited on Sun Jan-25-09 04:52 PM by Hawkowl
Right now the MSM is desperately trying to paint a rosy picture in the false belief that this is a "mental" recession, similar to the last several recessions. If we just buy more and are happy!

This is an old school financial "panic" as they were called in the 19th century, and Panics take several years to sort out with massive unemployment and idle factory capacity.

Hopefully, we won't hit the depths of the 1930's, but look to the Great Depression as a predictive model as to what is happening now. First stock market crashes, then banking crisis (with failed bailout policies), then massive layoffs. The parallels are striking.

Now, I believe President Obama must have advisors who see the same parallels. Hopefully, he can skip ahead of FDR's mistakes of hesitation, half measures, useless tax cuts and pouring money into failed banks. He MUST start at direct job creation and wage support. In essence to prevent Depression, he must put not just wealth back into the hands of the working class, but he must enable small businesses and workers to start producing actual goods and services instead of fraudulent financial instruments.

(And Kudos to Joanne98 who is a treasure of valuable posts!)
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Almost 11 trillion dollar debt and 12,000,000 unemployed.
Big help needed fast.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. You're supposed to be a lemming and keep buying.
:eyes: :)
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
11. I think the probablility of a black swan gets higher by the day. n/t
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I agree..
... this is a mighty rosy analysis IMHO. Just like the rosy analyses we've been getting since 2006. I for one am done with the rosy scenario, since she has failed to show up about 10 times now.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
16. please point me to your "gloomy" posting of earlier
Thanks.
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OnceUponTimeOnTheNet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
17. K&R. I look forward to your articles. (with a smidge of horror mixed in) lol.
It's important to aware of the reality of our horrible economy and what it entails for us.

Thank You!
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
18. I wouldn't say you're a doomsayer--Thing is there's mucho doom around!
Thanks for posting. :hi:




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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
19. a long recession is called a depression...
sooner or later they will call this recession a depression..
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