Economy going to hit environment to survive.

[.... callchet ....]

Hate to have said it, but someone has to. The environment is going to have to take a backseat to recovery. It looks like there is no way around it. To get our labor costs down to compete with overseas jobs, we are going to have to take an environmental hit.

[villager]

1. Because of course our "recovered economy" will thrive on a super-heated, toxic planet!

n/t

[Merlot]

2. you mean continue bushco's policies, right?

[.... callchet ....]

6. Nope

Bush put our jobs overseas for the greedy businessmen.

[bluestateguy]

3. That is outdated thinking

Alternative energy provides numerous opportunites for job creation, as do conservation projects (think of FDR's CCC).

[.... callchet ....]

4. CCC and WPA and TVA

were good, but we weren't competing against China et al then.

[jwirr]

14. China cannot fix our roads, schools or build our alternative energy

projects. They may have the hold on all the material things we think we need but they cannot do our hands on service jobs.

[.... callchet ....]

16. And we are running out of money to do those service jobs.

States are losing money like crazy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. So happened in the 1930s

[tabatha]

5. BS

Green energy, etc - the economy of the future.

[.... callchet ....]

7. 11 trillion dollar debt

and 12 million unemployed can't wait for green jobs.

[TayTay]

8. Oh, I see, it's like this

"Hate to have said it, but someone has to. Healthcare is going to have to take a backseat to recovery. It looks like there is no way around it. To get our labor costs down to compete with overseas jobs, we are going to let some people take the hit and just stay sick or die."

I get, you're a compassionate conservative, right?

[.... callchet ....]

10. My avatar image is of me giving a speech to the teamsters

in Cleveland supporting clean air. If we get health care, which I support for everyone paying or not, we are going to have to pay for it. Massive taxes and competing with the world economy.

[Vincardog]

9. Bull$hit. The economy can not survive without a healthy environment. Be gone

[.... callchet ....]

11. That is the same thinking that got us 12,000,000,

unemployed.

[girl gone mad]

25. Environmentalism is the cause of high unemployment?

Ummm.... yeah. :eyes:

[Vincardog]

26. Bill$hit again. It was flat earth thinking like your OP that got us 12 Million unemployed. Should

you be on this board?

[.... callchet ....]

12. What is your solution?

[Trajan]

13. Not a statement of fact, but an opinion .....

and fallacious at that .... (False Dichotomy Fallacy)

There is nothing here that demands the environment 'take a hit' for any specific reason ....

For instance: What if part of the stimulus was spent to clean up what is already damaged, and to keep clean what is being built ?

Really .... your opinion does not establish REAL limits in a REAL world ... It is a personal fantasy that your possess ....

[.... callchet ....]

15. Why do you think jobs went overseas ?

I don't wish that, it is just obvious. Do you have another explanation why the jobs went overseas ?

[Trajan]

17. Yes ..... easy ....

Slave labor in fascist states with authorities willing to make deals that enrich themselves by selling that labor, cheaply, without regard to the ultimate benefit to the workers OR the consequential environmental damage ...

The environmental costs of US industry is lass than the wages saved by enlisting states like China as huge pools of cheap labor ...

[.... callchet ....]

18. What is your solution ?

What ever the reason the labor is cheaper over there.

[.... callchet ....]

19. Who do you think they sold

" make deals that enrich themselves by selling that labor, cheaply " to.

[.... callchet ....]

20. Solutions ?

This is a post looking for solutions. 12,000,000 unemployed and rising by 500,000 a month.

[Trajan]

22. Wrong ...

You made a specific claim that is demonstrably fallacious .... THAT is what this post was about ... The problems exist, yes, but saying the environment 'must take a hit' was the purpose of this thread : It had nothing to do with 'solutions' ....

I will not post any further replies in this thread ...

[.... callchet ....]

23. What other purpose could it

have other than intelligent discussion of the problem. If you lock your mind against the obvious, then we will have no solution. No matter how many ways the attempt is to disregard the obvious with innuendo or denial, we need a forward looking solution. it is unfortunate that so much time has to be spent in wording a post to avoid irrational attack. And then it still happens. This is not a war of opposite sides. it should be one side against the problem.

[.... callchet ....]

21. The top 14 subjects in the economy forum

are about our collapsing economy. Houston, we have a problem !

[GliderGuider]

27. There's plenty of evidence that "green tech" can be profitable. However,

In general terms, planetary ecological health is incompatible with a constantly expanding global economy. That's what the I=PAT equation is all about.

So, while we may be able to recover economically to some degree while not damaging the biosphere any more rapidly than we are already, healing the planetary ecology while expanding the global economy is an equation that just won't balance. At some point we have to put human ecological impact into reverse, whether by reducing our level of activity, our level of affluence, our level of technology or our numbers.

[.... callchet ....]

28. In year 2300

the population could be 50 billion. Are there figures on what that much body heat could do? That also is consuming a lot of vegetation. Will the planet support and endure this ?