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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 11:03 PM
Original message
Anybody seen this site....?
I'm a gloom and doomer, myself. A friend sent this in response to my G & D. Allwhois.com has no info for me, so I don't know who they are. Eldon Mast seems to crop up a lot.

Any ideas out there?

http://positiveeconomicnews.com/

Recession Over By July?
February 6, 2009
My compadre in reporting positive economic news, Eldon Mast (The Positive News Economist), and a man that delves much deeper into analysis than I posted a very positive report on his blog today suggesting for a few reasons that our recession could begin to wrap up mid 2009. He shares our enthusiasm for positive economic news and does a great job analyzing economic data.
Read the post here:

http://mast-economy.blogspot.com/2009/02/evidence-points-to-recessions-end-by.html




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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Doom and gloom isn't popular for a reason:
It all too often proves to be correct.

Nouriel Roubini is your best bet, he may be nick-named Dr Doom by the NYTs, but he has been pretty on for the past 3-4 years.

Here is his personal site, which has links to everything he has published and where his work shows up:

http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~nroubini/

This is where he posts his daily column, apparently The Economist magazine (for what it's worth) rated it the best Economics website last year:

http://www.rgemonitor.com/
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I know Dr. Doom... he's a friend of mine...
I read him all the time, and he makes sense.

What I'm wondering is, who are the Pollyannas who write on that site. Never heard of them.

Admittedly, after you read Roubini, you're kinda tired and just want to curl into a fetal ball, so I haven't been wandering too far afield these days.

Is there any validity to anything that site has to offer?
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. The "recession over by July" post is a fairy tale of Santa Claus-like proportions
Nothing points to a recovery, even a partial recovery, by then. Public debt will reach 80% this year, the average American household is swimming in personal debt (not to mention a solid percent being upside down on their mortgages); average worker salaries did not go up during record corporate profits earlier this decade, and when the decision becomes "take a pay cut or you're fired," wages will go down even more during this downturn- which leads to a bigger loss in consumer spending, thus feeding the spiral.

The author notes that the Baltic Dry Index "nearly doubled since December." That may seem well and good, but when you take into consideration that in November the BDI went down by 99% since October 2007, a doubling of 2% of what it cost you last year to ship something doesn't amount to much. It is a classic bear-market rally situation, with very few people buying things at crazy low prices, but not nearly what our 70% consumer spending spurred economy is used to.

Many of the biggest hedge funds have declared freezes on their capital, so investors can't withdraw and cause a run on them. That to me doesn't point out "consumer confidence." Citigroup is borderline insolvent currently, with their stock losing 40% of its value in a week last month, and with their toxic asset losses piling up, I don't see them getting off life support for many months down the road.

I reject the idea of "uncertainty shocks." People are not spending money because they might lose their jobs, or already have, not something that is driving the market, as the opening reason proposes. Consumer confidence doesn't deflate at a Wall Street Journal article saying "the economy is crashing," or else we would have seen a gradual decline in 2006 until the day sub-primes melted down. Fact is, consumer confidence was high right until Lehman Brothers went under (Sept. 15, 2008) and you have Bush on television telling us to give him our wallets and reach for the sky, or else the country is going to hell in a hand basket.
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gne1963 Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Santa Claus spins more fairy tails...with supporting data!
Idealism...

Here is the reference in the post... I don't know where you got your 2% number...
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/02/baltic-dry-index-leading-economic.html

This chart clearly shows how the credit freeze affected the Baltic Dry Index and then how the policy action has returned it the levels back in Oct...

Have you checked the Walmart "surprisingly strong January" numbers?
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2161120/

What number are you looking for in
"our 70% consumer spending spurred economy"?

Our number one retailer is now predicting growth in retail sales for their next reporting period... as well as saw strong growth in the period just ended...

I hear that you reject the "uncertainty shocks" theory, but your assertion that "people are not spending money" is just not supported by Walmart's data... or many other retailers currently.

Further do a google of "consumer confidence up feb" for your reading list of polls (just out) that find consumer confidence clearly hit bottom in December and by everyone's polling data consumer sentiment is again on the rise...

Happy Friday,
The Good News Economist
http://goodnewseconomist.com
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. I really don't want to rain on your parade
because I agree, people could always use more good news, and I salute your efforts with this regard. That being said, I value facts over hope when it comes to markets. I know you aren't trying to tell us the economy will recover in a few months, just rather some small hope you have for this outcome, but I don't see any such sunshine.

Here is the reference in the post... I don't know where you got your 2% number...
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/02/baltic-dry-index-le...


http://www.investmenttools.com/futures/bdi_baltic_dry_index.htm

This is what I am talking of. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1258270/baltic_dry_index_falls_93.html?cat=3">The Baltic Dry Index Falls 93% since its high of 11,000 just a few months earlier.

Your number is technically correct, that since the low of 700 or so in December, that the slight rally the BDI has undergone has effectively "doubled the index since December," but that doesn't mean much when you look at how far down it already was (it now sits around 1300, again from the usual 11,000 in June). I assume you know what the BDI is, so I won't go into that, but you don't really talk of what factors could be causing the BDI to marginally rise. My theory is gasoline prices have increased since December (which as anyone can tell you, they have). If it costs them more to fill their tankers up with oil to transport the goods, they will charge you more to ship the goods- which mean the BDI goes up, considering the BDI is the "cost of shipping goods" effectively.

Walmart is one of the few exceptions among retail outlook, because they tailor their products to be affordable. This is exactly what would do well in a recession, if Wal-Mart was doing poorly we should all be shitting bricks honestly. In 1930, the year after the stock market crash, Campbell's Soup was the only stock to end the year on the positive. This is what I would expect from certain companies that build themselves around inexpensive or thrifty goods. The retail market is your best bet for finding future good news, if you look at a category-by-category job loss index since last year, retail has lost the least (out of the big three: manufacturing, retail, and construction). The bright spots are few and far between, and I applaud you bringing these to light, though!

The February positive consumer confidence outlook is a bit misleading, I believe. You can only keep the public gloom and doomed for so long before they start becoming desensitized, for one, but also what happened in January that might give much of the country a "hopeful" outlook? January 20th, In my view, is a big part of this rise, me thinks. But, there is nothing wrong with such a shallow reason, the public is fickle and ill-informed in general- consumer confidence polls are just another example of this. No consumer confidence polls showed any discernible movement downard until Lehman Brothers fell, yet the core of our financial markets were rotting slowly away for a good year and a half (at least!).

The biggest thing your posts omits is the depressed housing market, and the beginning of the second real estate meltdown that is currently underway: CRE. It is quite understandable though; there just isn't any positive data coming out of these sectors. Homes are overbuilt, you have thousands of foreclosures a day, and it isn't getting any better. The FDIC's efforts to curtail foreclosures with "cram downs" has resulted in 6/10 federal judge-adjusted mortgages falling back into delinquency- I suppose we can tote a "40% success ratio!" on these, from a glass-half-full perspective! Maybe there is hope to be had on that, but these cram downs are quite time consuming, and as of now, not very effective.

The CRE market is a totally different animal, and one I have no answer for. Developers, many whom bought at the height of this hysteria are shit out of luck, unable to re-fi property that they are more than likely upside down on, and unable to find any tenets to lease to at even close to what they paid for the property- if they can find tenets at all! The re-fi period for CRE is usually every 5 years, and it is likely that even someone who didn't buy at the height of the market will get screwed because there won't be many banks willing to lend to you this time around! This article is ominous, to say the least:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aUxk2VzFAWjU

Moody’s Investors Service is reviewing the ratings of $302.6 billion in commercial mortgage-backed securities as real-estate values drop and property owners fall behind on payments.

The review encompasses 52 percent of outstanding U.S. commercial mortgage-backed debt ranked by Moody’s ...


And so it begins for CMBS. First the reviews, then the downgrades, followed by the bank write-downs, and then more reviews... rinse and repeat until finally: the realized losses, and more bank failures. Eight banks gone so far this year, and counting.

http://www.cbre.com/USA/Research/Market+Reports/US+Vacancy+Reports/default.htm

The National office vacancy rate increased to 14.7% in the fourth quarter 2008 from 14.1% in the previous quarter and from 12.8% a year ago.


Certain markets, vacancies are more problematic than others. In San Diego, for example, the vacancy rate is reportedly at 19.1%, New York is slightly under 18%, etc.

I hope you can find some good news out of my points!

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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Also...if you are a Roubini fan...
...He has a Facebook site.

Anyone who joins Facebook can add Roubini as a "friend." He gives little reports about his daily meetings and
participation in economic forums. He also comments about articles from the MSM that mention him. He also comments
on the (dis) information on the economy--written by the MSM.

It's a really cool and informative way to keep track of Roubini and his opinions.

It's kinda fun to see him say, "I'm leaving for Davos now...will check in later."

Many respond to his posts and he sometimes responds back.

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gne1963 Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. That would be me...
The Good News Economist...
actually that is the name of the site.
http://goodnewseconomist.com

The goal of the site is to find the "silver lining." It is not meant to be a "balanced" economic view per se.
Most media outlets will admit that if it's not "bad news" it's not "news worthy."

It is just the opposite paradigm under which the Good News Economist operates... if it is "good news"
then it *is* fit to print... folks can get their gloom and doom just about anywhere else...

Thanks for the mention here on this board. Made me want to come on over and check it out....
Any of you are welcome at that GNE site. The site has an open comments section open to all whether you agree
with the positive spin or not...

mmmm Democrats, underground... sounds quite interesting to me...

Can anyone give me the scoop on what to expect here on this board?

Thanks,
Eldon Mast
The Good News Economist
good.news.econ@gmail.com
http://goodnewseconomist.com
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I have no qualms with people...
...trying to find the silver lining.

In fact, I was a journalist, and one of my major gripes with the MSM is that they rely
on bad news for ratings. The old, "The fire that burns another, warms us to the fact
that we're not the victim of the day" adage.

However, when it comes to the economy--I think people just want the facts. They don't
want gloom. They don't want silver linings. They just want the truth.

I suppose their is a market for "good news." People want desperately to hear something
positive. However, if you're in the throes of an economic tsunami--is it really useful
to hear that big waves make for great surfing?

I would also argue that the MSM is hiding the depth of our economic woes. Whenever I turn
on CNBC, I hear "Buy stocks NOW!!". I'm also hearing skewed unemployment data--that definitely
hides the extent of the unemployment problem.

The MSM disseminates unemployment statistics that only count those filing for unemployment; and therefore seeking a job.
Those stats don't count discouraged workers (those who have stopped looking), the underemployed--or those workers
who have been forced to take temporary furloughs or pay cuts. Unemployment stats that reflect these realities
are available, but the media hides them.

I would argue that the MSM is presenting the silver lining...
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. On what exactly would a recovery be based????
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 02:10 PM by CoffeeCat
Consumers are losing their jobs in record numbers. Those who haven't lost their jobs have been
asked to take furloughs or paycuts. My husband was just asked to take a $1,000 per month cut.
If you haven't lost a job, you are still scared shitless.

Our economy is 70 percent consumer spending. Consumers aren't going to start spending any time
soon. Either they don't have the money or they're too scared to spend the money.

Plus, this country makes next-to-nothing any more. There is no big cash of jobs, just waiting for Americans
to take. Manufacturing is dead or outsourced to other countries. We need money in our wallets and
that requires jobs. I don't see this happening.

Furthermore, many banks are supposedly insolvent. This will cause further panic, and more job loss.

There's another housing bubble set to burst in early-mid 2009 that will make the first housing bubble
look like a picnic. This is when those McMansion and upper-middle class, high-end mortgages re-set
Payments will double for many people. Those people may not be unemployed or underemployed or just
simply unable to make those payments.

I'd sure as hell like to know what possible positive economic indicators could possibly outweigh
this current mess--that is getting worse, not better.

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tzugidan Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. none
CoffeeCat,

Sure times are hard. I dont' think anyone, myself included is supposing that everything is great. We certainly have problems here, and abroad. But you must put this in perspective. Certainly it is in your own perspective, and that's OK. Everyone is experiencing different circumstances. However, look back at what this country has come through...the Great Depression, by which in comparison, this recession is a joke. Over 11,000 banks failed, enemployment reached nearly 30%, and if you go back and look at what American's went through, to begin to compare the two insults those that took that mess and rebuilt America....

I was laid off last year, and after months of job seeking, I decided to start my own company. Sure it's hard, and we scrape by, but you know what? That's what American's do CoffeeCat. And the reason for my site was simply that fact that MSM simply refused to report anything good going on in this country. It simply insults me. But that's ME. And apparently there are thousands more like me, and Eldon as their flocking in droves just so they can get the news they don't get from MSM.

I can't speak for Eldon, he does more analysis and editorial. Me? I just scrape news that I find remotely positive. It's up to the reader to do what they want with it. I really don't care. I don't have a dog in anyone's fight. I'm just putting it out there.

Anyway, my company helps forklift dealerships around the country put together and execute marketing programs. And I can tell you this...there is still plenty of stuff manufactured here in the US. Plenty! Why just ONE of my clients works with over one thousand manufacturing companies in his small Southeastern city... It's here, but again, the MSM focuses on all the job shipped to Mex and other places afar. Did you know that Toyota Motor employees tens of thousand of American's? Yes, they shipped jobs HERE. Did you know that more of their parts are sourced here in the USA than most American car companies and that those suppliers employ tens of thousands more Americans?

You see, the more you look into what America IS instead of what it is NOT, and what we CAN do, instead of what we have NOT, the more pride you feel in this country, and the less you tolerate others dissing the efforts of those hard working American's...

Hey, you know...it's a choice. to live life curled up in a fetal position as one poster mentioned he felt like doing after visiting a G & D blog (why someone would choose to do that to themselves is beyond me), or to roll up your sleeves and use your talents to rock this boat forward. We'll get there, we always do.

What's your choice? Imagine what our GGparents went through, and they were here in the end... Let's live up to their expectations, and get off these blogs, and chat rooms where commiseration seems to be the order of the day... It's always darkest before the dawn. Prepare for the worst, live in the moment, and always remember your past...and look for the things in your life you can be thankful for...

I hope you and your family find your way...

Peace to you.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. It will be over for the rich. But for us it goes on until we riot!
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.... callchet .... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Rich are not in a recession, they have never had it better.
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