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marketcrazy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:24 PM
Original message
banks may need more than 1 TRILLION!!!
Stimulus Battle May Signal Tough Sell for Bank Rescue (Update1)

By Matthew Benjamin

Feb. 8 (Bloomberg) -- President Barack Obama’s struggle to push an economic stimulus bill through Congress may seem easy compared to what he’ll encounter when he returns to Capitol Hill for additional funds to rescue the banking system.

Obama will likely need to ask Congress for more money to recapitalize banks, as much as $1 trillion on top of the roughly $300 billion remaining in the current Troubled Asset Relief Program, according to an estimate by former Federal Reserve economist Ward McCarthy. That will be an even tougher sell for the new president than the stimulus plan, which is headed for a Senate vote this week after passing the House with no Republican support.

That package, at least $780 billion of spending and tax cuts aimed at boosting consumer demand and creating jobs, is just a part of what it will take to pull the economy out of the 14- month-old recession. The stimulus will be effective only if credit markets, currently frozen by illiquid assets clogging banks’ balance sheets, begin to function again.

“It will take an enormous effort to build broader public support” for another bank rescue plan, said Thomas Mann, a congressional scholar at the Brookings Institution in Washington. “Had the stimulus gone through swimmingly it would have made it easier.”

Geithner’s Speech

New steps to be outlined this week by Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner will include fresh capital injections into banks and ways to deal with toxic securities still on their balance sheets, according to people familiar with the matter.

Geithner’s speech has been pushed back one day to Feb. 10 to avoid distracting attention from the economic-stimulus bill, White House economics director Lawrence Summers said today. That is the same day the Senate is scheduled to vote on the bill.

“There’s a desire to keep the focus right now on the economic recovery program, which is so very, very important,” Summers said today on ABC’s “This Week.”

Treasury will probably propose a combination of buying toxic bank assets, providing guarantees for other assets, and making additional capital infusions to banks, said McCarthy, now a principal at Stone & McCarthy Research Associates, an economic research firm in Skillman, New Jersey.

“The remaining TARP funds are not going to be enough for the job,” said McCarthy, who estimates that up to $1.5 trillion in government aid will be needed to save the banking system. “If they want to get the job done, they will have to scrape up more cash,” said McCarthy.

Tangible Benefits

New funding for the banking system will be all the harder to justify because the original TARP, which so far has provided almost $400 billion to more than 360 banks, hasn’t shown much in the way of tangible benefits.

“They continue to assume that if you do something and it hasn’t worked, you have to continue to do more of it,” said Representative Darrell Issa, a Republican from California. “That’s the definition of insanity.”

Obama and his staff struggled last week to win support for the stimulus package from several moderate Republicans in the Senate, including Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe of Maine and Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania.

Support for another round of cash for ailing banks may be even tougher to win after reports last week raised new questions about the cost and effectiveness of the assistance provided already.

$78 Billion Overpayment

The chairman of the TARP’s Congressional Oversight Panel told the Senate Banking Committee that Treasury paid $254 billion of TARP funds for bank equity worth $176 billion, an overpayment of $78 billion. And even after the infusions of taxpayer funds, a majority of U.S. banks still made it tougher for consumers and businesses to get credit at the end of 2008, a Feb. 2 Federal Reserve report showed.

Such findings give ammunition to lawmakers such as Utah Republican Senator Bob Bennett of Utah who say they were misled about how the TARP would work.

“Can we believe what we are told next time?” Bennett said at the Senate committee hearing. “Those of us who decided we were going to take the political risk of voting for this the first time will be faced with a constituency that will say, ‘Fool me once, OK, but don’t fool me twice.’”

Bonuses and Perks

Other lawmakers may balk at the idea of providing more rescue funds after hearing of banks that took billions in taxpayer money and continued to provide bonuses and lavish perks to employees.

New York financial institutions doled out $18.4 billion in bonuses last year, the sixth-biggest haul in history. A Merrill Lynch & Co. executive spent $1.2 million to redecorate his office while the company accepted $10 billion in government funds. Insurer American International Group Inc. hosted a $440,000 conference at a California resort in September after agreeing to a federal bailout.

“It will be harder for Obama to keep all the Democrats on board,” said Washington-based political analyst Stuart Rothenberg.

Not only will they resist the idea of additional money for banks, Rothenberg said, “but there may be some sort of hangover from the stimulus bill, with Democrats feeling as though the Senate compromised too much to get two or three Republican votes.”

The original TARP legislation failed to pass the House by a dozen votes on Sept. 29, sending the Dow Jones Industrial Average down 777 points. It was approved on a second attempt after several lawmakers changed their votes.

Blue Dog Democrats

This time around fiscally conservative Blue Dog Democrats, troubled by another piece of legislation with a price tag in the hundreds of billions of dollars, may be the biggest obstacle for Obama.

“Blue Dog Democrats and Republicans will line up to tell Obama, you’ve got to do better than to say, ‘give us the money and trust us,’” said Representative Issa.

Obama has already begun a public-relations push to build popular support for additional bank bailouts. Last week he introduced new executive pay guidelines for financial institutions needing government help to remain solvent. They included a $500,000 cap on executive pay and new disclosure rules on perks like corporate jets and holiday parties.

In addition, he continues to ratchet up his rhetoric on extravagant bank compensation and perks.

“For top executives to award themselves these kinds of compensation packages in the midst of this economic crisis is not only in bad taste, it’s a bad strategy, and I will not tolerate it as president,” Obama said when he announced the new restrictions on Feb. 4.

He’ll also have to make any new financial rescue plan look starkly different from TARP, said Stan Collender, a former analyst for the House and Senate budget committees, now at Qorvis Communications in Washington.

“The new plan has got to have a different goal, a lot more for homeowners and individuals,” said Collender. “It’s got to be more than banks holding on to the money.”

To contact the reporter on this story: Matthew Benjamin in Washington at mbenjamin2@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: February 8, 2009 11:49 EST
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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Shit if they keep dragging their feet, I'M gonna need more than a trillion!!!
:(
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Fool Me Once .... Don't Get Fooled Again!" Best Thing Bush Ever Said
eom
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. "gynecologists can't practice their... can't practice their LOVE with women"...
Edited on Sun Feb-08-09 07:31 PM by BlooInBloo
Will always be my #1.

Unfortunately it bears no relevance to the current convo.
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Chuckles!
eom
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. just say no to the banks nt
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. It will be a really hard sell
I am not thrilled about it. It seems every economist I read has a different opinion on it. I don't know enough about it to make an informed decision. It seems to me it would be better to let the big ones fail and divide up their assets among healthy banks.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'll be watching the Repukes as they ooze sincerity....
And the goofbags on CNBC, as well. I remember before the TARP was approved Larry Kudlow was saying that a little bit of socialism is needed every now and then.

Mark my words, there will be enough R's on board to be models of bipartisanship like never before.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. Banks should have been nationalized with the first bail out and should be
with any subsequent ones. We can't make the same mistakes over and over again.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just nationalize the biggest failing banks?
And can't nationalization be done without Congress having to stick their nose in it?

Nationalize the big fat, failing welfare queen banks. Let the small failing banks fail.
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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. For that number we better own them. Period.
Nationalize the banks.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. Let's make sure we don't get anything for our trillion dollars!
Edited on Sun Feb-08-09 07:57 PM by kenny blankenship
Like ownership, oversight, return on investment.
Don't nationalize! Don't intrude on the sacred rites of capitalism!

Let's just gift a TRILLION DOLLARS to them.
After all, they've earned it right?
I mean they just DESERVE this money because of who they are.

My GOD, when is somebody with a D after their name going to state the obvious fact that the banks of this country and others have been run by and are still being run by the biggest crooks that ever took money from widows and orphans??
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mckara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. We NEED to Let Some Banks Fail
Edited on Sun Feb-08-09 07:42 PM by mckara
Citibank is insolvent and other banks are teetering on the edge of implosion. Save JP Morgan and allow the market to decide the fate of others.
Another plan could be placing all CDSs into one company, and letting it declare bankruptcy to allow the $1.2 quadrillion of derivatives to die a harmless death, except for spectaculars who will take it on the chin. Simultaneously, outlaw further betting on derivatives and regulate investment banking until it becomes completely transparent.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. How about making GOOD investments & EARNING it for a change?
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
14. Either nationalize the banks, or dole out the $1T direct to consumers
....to pay off their existing debt.

Paying off the existing debt removes the "bad debt" from the books of banks, is more effective in getting the balance sheets of the banks healthy, and also frees up the consumers to spend again.

Washington is focusing too much on just giving these crooks direct bailouts and keeping the same bank executives who caused this crisis in their jobs, which doesnt help the economy to get money moving again.

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marketcrazy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. they WILL get the money moving again
it will move from the Treasury to the FED to the banks and finally to the hedge funds and it will all be financed by us!! and when the bottom falls out the taxpayers will end up eating ALL the losses!!! NICE!!!!!!
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
15. Never happen. Not after they blew the first and second TARP funds.
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marketcrazy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. if they do not get the money
they will say the system will collapse, paychecks will stop, millions will lose their jobs and then EVERYONE on this board will be SCREAMING for the government to bail them out!! just like the last time!
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. The system has already collapsed, paychecks have stopped in California
and they will stop in other states as well even with the stimulus, millions have already lost their jobs and everyone on this board screams about something everyday.

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marketcrazy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. good point!!!
:evilgrin:
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The Brethren Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
19. I have an idea for our economy and our banks......

I say instead of the new stimulus plan, that according to the Rocky Mt. News for yesterday, Feb. 7th, stated: "Dems, GOP agree on $827 billion in tax cuts and new spending" that our government should've used a million dollar-per-American citizen-stimulus package instead. I'm not kidding.

According to U.S. Census Bureau http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html, we have 305,7777,521 million legal citizens in the our country, that is approx. 306 million of us here of all ages. So let's say that of that 306 million, 2/3 approx. or so are 18 and older.

If instead of the $850 billion plus wasted of taxpayers monies in Oct. on the Wall Street scam, plus the now $827 billion dollars to be handed out, all in the excuse to save and stimulate our economy and our economic infrastructure (banks, wall-street, etc.,) why not instead give every adult American citizen, age 18 and older, one million dollars to use any way they want -- of course as long as it's legal. And it doesn't matter whether you still have a job or not. The only 2 requirements are that you prove you are an American citizen and that you are 18 or older.

Everyone of all financial levels gets exactly the same one mil. You can use it if you're unemployed to support yourself and your family for as long as you wish. If you want to go to college, great, you pay for it out your one million. If you're house is about to be foreclosed, again, you use your money to pay off your balance.

In fact, with this stimulus/bail-out plan every American has more than enough money to pay off all their debts and still have money to spare, unless you owe over a million dollars in debt, or you blow through that much money right away. And most likely not only will every American use that money to take care of themselves one way or the other - many for the rest of their lives if they know how to budget money, but they'll also inevitably spend that money on something: a new car, a new house or houses, clothes, whatever they want.

They'll also need to store (bank) that much money somewhere unless they expect to stuff it in between their mattresses and hope that their home doesn't burn down at any point. LOL Which means they'll have to use the banking system. Likewise, if a business owner wants to pay off their debts and keep their business going -- buy new machinery, supplies, etc, they can. And if motivated entrepreneurs want to start new businesses, they now have collateral to do so -- assuming that it matches or is below their million dollar "gift" from our government (which really means all of us). And many Americans will also likely go back to investing in Wall Street again. And Wall Street will probably jerk around with their money management again and continue to hand out millions upon millions of "bonus" money to it's employees. They're still doing that anyway, so no difference there on their selfish wastefulness.

One final clause with this plan -- that there is to be a moratorium on any additional funding coming from our government for any further "bailout" or "stimulus" type handouts for the next 10 yrs., possibly longer.

And the total expense for this million dollar-per-American citizen-stimulus plan is....drum roll please: below 306 million as apposed to....how many billions upon billions of taxes dollars now given away??????

I realize that my stimulus idea has about as much usefulness of actually accruing anytime in the future in our government as a fart in a jam jar. However, I just wanted to share my 2 cents worth on our economic crisis...rather, make that my under $306 million dollar input on the matter. :-) And personally, I don't think our government should be handing out money to it's citizens like this to begin with, but since it's decided it "must" start throwing around billions of taxpayer's monies, then I think this is a better solution.
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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
20. I don't want to bail out any banks anymore and no one else does.
I'm pretty much convinced that things are frozen for awhile. People don't want to go out and spend. They don't want more debt. If companies can't manage day to day operations without borrowing, they don't deserve to be in business. I'm getting any money I have in the big banks and putting them in the credit union.


Granted this will mean more layoffs etc. but honestly, I don't see anything but more layoffs while corporations don't show growth (which they won't) and they will lay off people anyway, whether they can borrow or not.

Besides, the banks don't need the money. They have enough to give out big bonuses and big flashy expensive parties and retreats-- extra. They don't. need. it. Don't give it to them. They are squandering arrogant greedy mofos. Screw them.

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The Brethren Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You're a smart lady.
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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. thanks, I had to vent a bit
I am so tired of our government selling us out.
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The Brethren Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You're not alone.
There are a lot of us out there who are very worried and fed up with things. And it's not just one problem, it's layers onto layers of them with economics at the center. I also believe we've been sold out as Americans, including by our government for awhile now. And with the economic melt down it's starting to become more obvious.

And please keep venting whenever you want. You never know when what you have to say on the issue might be helping others. :-)
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