SS: Dazed and Confused

[phantom power]

The GOP understands the concept of "low info voter" very very well. The Dems... not so much.

I think we are all going on the assumption that they won't be able to (dismantle SS) because the people won't allow it. But I'm here to tell you that the people may not understand that's what they are doing. I had a conversation yesterday that will make you hair stand on end. (I swear this actually happened.)

I was at the local Albertson's yesterday, very crowded. The check out guy, aunion member who went out on strike with all the other grocery workers in LA a couple of years ago, was chit-chatting with a woman who was checking out about $400.00 worth of items. So they had a long time to talk. The woman was saying that there's no money left in the social security system, that they'd spent it all. The clerk said, "Yeah, I heard that too, there's nothing left." The women went on to tell this horror story about how her mother died and when she went down to sign up for her mother's social security, they told her she wasn't entitled to it because she was over 18. (She was in her 40s.) The clerk and the two people ahead of me gasped and said "you're kidding" and "what happened to all that money she paid in then?" The clerk sagely replied, "it went into the congressmen's pockets that's what happened."

At this point I couldn't take it and I interjected that nobody has ever been entitled to inherit their mother's social security and they all insisted that you used to be able to do it. All three of them. I wasn't going to get into that absurdity in the grocery store, so I just said, "Look, the most important thing is your social security and it will be there for you unless you let your representatives mess with it right now. You should tell them you don't want them to do anything to social security." The clerk looked at the other customers and sort of wryly laughed, saying "I don't think that's right. It's not what I've heard." The woman whose mother had died recently said, "It's not true. When I went down there to collect my money they said there wasn't any left in the system. I want to know what happened to all my mother's money." The other person (also in her 40s) said, "all I know is that everybody says there won't be any money there for us."

If people are really this misinformed, I see no reason why the deficit scolds can't convince them that they are saving social security by cutting it. They're already there. At a time of economic insecurity, people are getting panicked about all sorts of things and the right wing media machine is using that panic to advance their agenda.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/dazed-and-confised-conversations-with.html

[blue sky at night]

1. the "truth" and "reality".....

you know stuff like "facts" are NO LONGER needed to live ones life. I only "know" what I heard the other day on fox....scary fucking place we live in nowadays.

I am in awe of you for even taking a swing at those folks, you have real guts.

[mrcheerful]

2. People have been told since 1980 that SS was in dire condition and going broke

People are easy to fool when they know nothing about the system or how the cons have went out of the way to claim SS is bad. You'd be surprised at how many people believe that SS money is used to pay for SSI and all a person has to do is go down to the SS office, claim they have a mental disability and walk out was a $1,600 check. The woman in the story is misinformed about surviviors benefits that pay out to wives with children under 18 and disabled children that were disabled before the age of 18 who can claim parents SS after the parent died no matter what age they are when the parent died.

[CountAllVotes]

6. correct

My late mother told me that I shouldn't take a job that required I pay into SS. Because of this, I ended up working for the Federal government for 10 years. I quit when Reagan was reelected as the word was he was going to mess with the Federal pension system (which he did). I drew out my contributions at that time (1985) and took a job where I paid into both SS and their pension system. My paychecks were small, believe me.

As for my late mother, well she drew a small Federal pension that was >$800.00 a month after 20 years of working for them. As for SS, all she was able to collect was >$200.00 a month. She was really pissed about that. To make matters worse, when my father died, she couldn't collect his SS because she was a Federal retiree and at that time the law was you couldn't collect a dead spouse's SS if you were a Federal retiree (that law has since been changed).

So, my late mother was wrong wasn't she? It angers me that I believed it. Those 10 years I worked for the Federal government are basically lost on the retirement/SS clock. :(

Oh well. I learned something. SS here here to stay, no ifs ands or buts about it!!

:kick:

[customerserviceguy]

3. If you believe the money's there

Then where is it?

[Hawkowl]

4. Ahhh...

You must be the aforemention low information voter? No?

[customerserviceguy]

5. Nope, I know exactly where that money's 'at'.

It was lent by the Social Security Administration to the rest of the Federal Government to finance low taxes and high spending budgets that were not in surplus. The SSA got back pretty pieces of paper, that while nominally Treasury securities, they are not tradable on the open market like a regular T-bill or T-note.

Also, Congress really doesn't want to have to raise taxes and cut spending in order to produce the budget surpluses that would actually be able to pay off those securities, and all of the other borrowing that the Gov't does. That's why Simpson's commission was formed, to be able to push that date off to a time when its members are all dead.

Here's an analogy for you: You refinanced your house a few years ago for $500K when it appraised at that value. I bought the note and mortage from your bank. Now, that house is worth only about $125K, and while I still have a piece of paper telling me that you still owe $500K (minus whatever little principal you've paid so far), my ability to collect on it is only as good as your word in paying it.

Of course, you've lost your job, but you figure that you can jack up the rent on your roommates, cut back on maintaining the house, and try to skate for awhile, either hoping that house goes back up in value, or that we'll both be gone by the time it has to be paid back.

[Crazy Dave]

7. I do see the full retirement age being raised to 75....

...and the payroll contribution amount increased by three times.

[jtuck004]

8. That would be a tragedy.

We have 30 million people unemployed and underemployed, likely to be nearer 40 million by next year, and that does not include those who are so discouraged they have not looked in 4 weeks. About 4 million open jobs.

Several million are older workers who have worked the last job they will ever have. Social security is their only hope. And unless something new comes over the horizon, it won't matter if they just do this to people that are 40, or 50. It will mean taking our older neighbors back to the levels of poverty we had in years past.

There are certain things on my agenda that are non-negotiable, and that is one of them. I am through voting for people that work to save the wealthy at the expense of the rest. And I really don't care what their excuses are.

[Crazy Dave]

10. Our lawmakers only have to serve one term to get a government pension

So don't ever expect any changes that will benefit the average American. If they had to depend on the same retirement and healthcare plans that we do then you can bet your @** things would be a whole lot different.

Wasn't it members of congress 3 - 4 years ago pitching a fit because their co-pay was going to increase from $5 to $10?

[customerserviceguy]

11. That's a bit pessimistic

but I do see it going to 70. I've advocated a five point scale for jobs based on physical difficulty (worker's comp board figures would be helpful here), and you would lower the age for full retirement benefits back to 65 for the most demanding jobs. You would also raise it to 70 for desk-sitting pencil pushers like myself.

As we more fully move from an agricultural/manufacturing economy to a service economy over the coming decades, you will have a greater proportion of workers using 70 yrs of age as their full retirement guideline. I know that if I had it to do over again, I'd have been a lot more diligent about putting that 401K and IRA money aside. We need to incentivize that behavior for younger people.

[Crazy Dave]

13. I've heard from many sources that it will definitely be 72 by 2024

What can or will anybody do if it goes even higher? But rest assured it will never go away. The government isn't going to let their main slush fund get taken from them. They will continue to make us pay into it or go to jail.

[customerserviceguy]

14. Wow, that would be folks born in 1952 and since

I rather doubt that it would apply to people who have already seen the jacking up from 65 to 67, being as those folks who were imminently going to retire. But I do agree with your conclusions about the slush fund, they have zero intention of ever redeeming those specialized Treasury securities that are in the Trust Fund.

[Crazy Dave]

15. This will be the 2nd but not the last time it has been bumped up for me

1st from 65 to 67, now from 67 to 70. I can't remember which show it was on but it was on NPR where two guests stated it is already set in stone that it will definitely be 72 by 2024 or sooner but they have to ease it up there little by little and figure ways to sell it to the public. Frog soup is the term many use for it. As the old story goes, you can't put a live frog in boiling water because it will jump out of the pot so first you put it in slightly warm water, after it gets used to it and starts to like it you can turn up the heat, at first it's uncomfortable but eventually the frog gets used to it again, then again and again and then....you have a boiling dead frog and you make frog soup.

Please try to remember our conversation 10 - 14 years from now and you'll see how accurate I've been.

[customerserviceguy]

16. It's not officially 70 - yet.

I'd be interested to know who those guests were, perhaps you might recognize something from the NPR website, no doubt they'd have some writings that could be found.

And I agree that this coming winter will not see the last of the 'fixes' that will be applied to Social Security. If we don't bounce back out of this recession/depression soon, we will have another liquidity crisis in the system. All of the other recessions since the SSS was established have been relatively short-lived, and the system was able to get back to the usual hand-to-mouth existence that it has used.

In any case, I'm making my plans as if it won't be there for me, if I'm wrong, then it's a bonus.

[fasttense]

9. It's in Social Security treasury bonds.

Unless the federal government defaults on these bonds, the money is there collecting 5.5% interest.

The federal government would have to specifically default on these bonds for Social Security to go away. Now is defaulting on Treasury bonds a show of good faith and confidence on the part of the US? I think if we default on these bonds, we need to default on ALL Treasury bonds.

[customerserviceguy]

12. Or, they could raise payroll taxes, and cut benefits

and never have to deal with the problem. That's what I see happening.

And it's not just me, here's an interesting political cartoon I found recently:



Show that to your friends who are under 40, and see what their reaction is.

[fasttense]

17. So if they raise taxes and cut benefits, what are they going to do with the $3 Trillion?

There is about $3 Trillion in the Social Security Trust Fund that was suppose to pay for our retirement (after we paid for our parent's retirement of course). So, once they claim they have saved Social Security by destroying it, what will our useless leaders do with our money in the Trust Fund? Give it to banks/Wall Street/Insurance corporations?


Social Security is the best damn program the government ever created. And it has never failed. If the damn politicians would keep their mitts off our money, then Social Security will continue to succeed.