California Economy

[Hardrada]

At a forum with IA governor B he referred to the CA economy. I believe it is bad because they cut taxes back when they did Prop 13. His point seemed to be they spent too much or had a bad taxation policy that did not encourage business. Of course he is trying to lower taxes and not pay for public education. I think that is exactly what California did with Prop 13 and do you think that is part of the reason for their economic woes today?

[izquierdista]

1. That was the start of the long, rocky road down

Instead of having a sane readjustment of property taxes in a time of high inflation, voters fell for the right-wing shit shoveled out by the landlord guild. Those greedy fucks were basically slumlords, caring nothing for people as long as they could collect rent. Prop.13 was everything that Reagan was prevented from doing as governor, so California had no chance to recover from his disastrous two terms.

[mike_c]

2. Prop 13 deified the notion that raising revenue is an unfair burden on the people...

...and then extended that notion to corporate land owners as well. I think it has been an utter disaster for California, despite the obvious personal benefits to everyone who didn't have property taxes raised. Howard Jarvis was a self-serving fool.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

3. I don't even want to contemplate what California would look like without Prop. 13

Unless a state of transient feudal renters and the wealthy might have been a desirable outcome. Prop 13 didn't come out of a vacuum. The intentions behind including commercial properties was to protect industrial sites and associated jobs from redevelopment pressures.

[mike_c]

4. that might have been the justification, but the intention was to protect corporations...

...from taxes. Plain and simple. Prop 13 has been horrible for California.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

5. It protects everybody, corporations too.

Somebody had to impose stability on the property tax situation in California, if that had to be Jarvis - so be it. Real Estate speculation was resulting in preposterous tax assessments for both residential and commercial property. And that was very, very bad for everyone.

Was Prop 13 ideal? Absolutely not. Was waiting for the legislature to do something a better alternative? Also absolutely not. They had thirty years to address this problem before Prop 13 was passed.

[bemildred]

6. He's just spouting generic "Free Market" dogma and blaming it on us.

The problem is NEVER the government spending too much, as such, the problem is when they waste it. If it's well spent, it's as good as any other spending. Prop. 13 was right in wanting to limit taxation for old and soon to be dead people, but wrong in treating corporations like they were old people.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

7. So factories closing left and right was a good thing?

A problem in much of the US is the entire property tax system is based on residential dwellings and poorly reflects the intrinsic value found in other land uses. Such as say... employing 10,000 taxpayers.

[bemildred]

8. Outsourcing sucks. All those job went to Asia, and it was US gov'ty policy to facilitate that.

And that has diddly squat to do with prop. 13. Did you know they have great problems with labor shortages in China? I mean, I don't want to defend the US tax system, or the California property tax system, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with deindustrialization in the USA.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

9. What the hell are you talking about? Prop 13 passed in 1978

The issue was that the tax policies of California from the 1950's till 1978 were extremely harsh to both residential and commercial/industrial land owners in that they were based on the whims of land speculators. Taxing an industrial site based on what a land speculator had just paid for one to build houses on is a good way to get factories to close. Ford for instance had factories in both Richmond and Long Beach, rising property taxes in the 1950's drove replacement factories into what was then the middle of nowhere: Milpitas and Pico Rivera. Eventually suburbia caught up with both plants as did property taxes and they closed too. The same thing happened to all the industries around Santa Monica Airport where in the mid-50's 45,000 people were employed and by 1960 nearly zero. The same thing happened everywhere else in the state where industry was run off the land either conciously to facilitate redevelopment or inadvertently by "market" property taxes.

[bemildred]

10. I live here, I voted for it.

That's what I'm talking about.

Just to be clear: I'm saying the job losses had diddly squat to do with Prop. 13, California has bled jobs ever since Prop. 13 was passed.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

11. I'm saying Prop 13 protected existing land owners from a phony market

and for that it is commendable, if only it happened sooner.

[bemildred]

12. Like I said, I voted for it, but it has nothing to do with job loss.

I think it shoud be amended to not treat corporations like Granny, Chevron is not Granny.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

13. It had everything to do with jobs

Prop 13 protected industrial sites from being taxed out of existence by encroaching suburbia driving up land value. It wasn't just granny - it was any "resident" that was being turned on their head by a frenzied speculators market, that includes businesses large and small. Ford ultimately said screw it and went back to Michigan where for all its faults there was some passing recognition that industry is important and not just ugly buildings to be replaced with tract housing.

[bemildred]

14. We disagree. nt