Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

GRL Article/James Hansen - Arctic Sea Ice "Beyond Point Of No Return" - Der Spiegel

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:12 PM
Original message
GRL Article/James Hansen - Arctic Sea Ice "Beyond Point Of No Return" - Der Spiegel
EDIT

A new study completed by a team of US, Norwegian and German researchers may now provide some clues. Published in the scientific journal Geophysical Research Letters in November, the study posits that a dramatic change in atmospheric circulation patterns has taken place since the beginning of the decade, with centers of high pressure in winter shifting toward the north-east. The new pattern of sudden climate change is characterized by "poleward atmospheric and oceanic heat transport," the authors write in the study, a transport which drives temperature increases in the Arctic. The discovery was made using specialized filters that allow one to follow changes to high pressure centers over time.

Behind the complex language and impenetrable calculations upon which the study is based, however, is a frightening possibility: climate change in the Arctic could already have reached the point of no return. Climate researchers have long been warning of such "tipping points," and that crossing them could mean irreversible developments for eco-systems and humanity. In the case of the Arctic, that could mean a complete disappearance of ice in the region during the summer months. Such an eventuality would then further magnify global warming, due to the fact that bright white ice reflects sunlight back into the atmosphere whereas dark colored land and ocean absorbs heat. "In the case of Arctic Sea ice, we have already reached the point of no return," says the prominent American climate researcher James Hansen, director of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies at NASA.

EDIT

James Overland from the Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory in Seattle agrees. In the scientific journal Tellus the oceanographer, together with colleagues, also points to the new north-south flow patterns in the Arctic. "If the current flows stay the way they are, then we will see the disappearance of Arctic sea ice 40 years earlier than we would as a result of greenhouse-gas emissions alone," Overland told SPIEGEL ONLINE. Even if the Arctic circulation were to return to normal and would switch to the "dipolar" pattern just once in a decade, the situation would look grim, he said. "Each time we would see a loss of so much ice that it would be impossible to return to the initial state." Overland says that the dramatic disappearance of Arctic ice observed in 2007 was no exception. The summer of 2008 was just as bad, he says. The progression is clear: sooner or later the ice cap will become so small that it will not be able to survive the warm summer months.

EDIT

The series of warm winters experienced in the Arctic this decade, it should be noted, is not the first time in recent history the region has been visited by mild weather. In the 1930s, there was a similar "dipolar" pattern that pushed warm air into the Arctic, as researchers now know. Back then, though, it was air from the North Atlantic and not from the North Pacific. Furthermore, says Gerdes, the warm air did not penetrate beyond 75 degrees north latitude, which roughly marks the previous limits of the ice cap. Today, the heat spreads through the entire Arctic. It could be that the new patterns of air circulation in the Arctic are caused by natural climate variations. But given the dramatic ice melt currently being observed, such an explanation is not enough to satisfy researchers. The American scientist Overland, for his part, has no doubts: the dramatic change in pressure systems in the Northern Hemisphere combined with Arctic warming is, he says, "a clear signal of warming."

EDIT/END

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,594461,00.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Understated as always. (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. ..and then some days you have to wonder if we're done for anyways.
We need a nice qualitative mutation pill and quickly :)


Dont know why I smiled but sometimes it feels like thats all one can do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Correct me if I'm wrong, BUT
Wouldn't warming Arctic temperatures increase the rate at which the Ice on Greenland melts....spilling MORE freshwater into the north Atlantic.....affecting the thermohaline current.....leading to.....cooler temperatures in northern Europe....eastern Canada....northeastern US..... Huh? Ms Bigmack
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yes, the north Atlantic would cool, temporarily
There was a study posted here that implied that changing ocean currents would cause Western Europe to cool for a decade or two. After that, the rapidly warming atmosphere would over-ride the local cool-down and temps would spike again even in the North Atlantic region.

Ah, found a link to that study:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aU.evtnk6DPo&refer=worldwide
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. Deniers can STFU
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gullvann Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Jpak
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 03:17 PM by Gullvann
Interestingly enough. The article linked to in post 5 raises the possibility of no more warming in the next ten years.

That could possibly be a disaster to the efforts to curb warming. That is why I think the recent temperatures ARE interesting. Because, they WILL have political implications.

And, if the worst case scenarios are correct. This potential delay in curbing carbon output could prove tragic in the long run.

It certainly bears thinking about, and both more work needs be done in science and in public relations work. IMHO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I agree TOTALLY with you
The Bloomberg post is interesting, and I'm thinking that the number of "unanswered questions" dwelling in the "incomplete realms" of the scientific community is TRULY scary..... No doubt but we're on the road to horrific warming in the long run, and maybe in the short run.....and in norther Europe and northern North America there could ALSO be dangerous cooling in the short run. 'Twould be nice to know the likely timing of all "this." Alas, but screwing around with the old bitch goddess (as Mom Nature is known in our house) is unwise indeed, and failing to "err on the side of caution" is bloody SCARY! Ms Bigmack
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gullvann Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Hey Bigmack...
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 03:38 PM by Gullvann
You almost sound like a "denier" now. Be careful. "fascist hunter" might come after you. :dunce:

The science is very interesting, but as a science trained person I think there is a lack of humility.

There is much the models doesn't seem to catch.

There was no talk about some decade long pause in the warming before this year.

As far as I am aware. Now it is rather common. Why? Because it has been rather cool lately.

Some Norwegian research on the gulf stream and the conveyor belt: The gulf stream is as strong as ever and the conveyor belt seems to be increasing. i.e. the water from the south sinks deeper.

All, I think is that we should be humble. Think about what we are saying when it comes to PR. And, increase the science effort.

Did you see this thread I started?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4463186

?

Anyhow,

have a great weekend.

Best wishes from Norway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. here's an unhumble opinion from the OP
<snip>

It could be that the new patterns of air circulation in the Arctic are caused by natural climate variations. But given the dramatic ice melt currently being observed, such an explanation is not enough to satisfy researchers. The American scientist Overland, for his part, has no doubts: the dramatic change in pressure systems in the Northern Hemisphere combined with Arctic warming is, he says, "a clear signal of warming."

<snip>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gullvann Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. What do you think of Hansen's rhetoric?
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 04:23 PM by Gullvann
Point of no return has been passed.

I don't like it. It seems to imply that we are already doomed.

Perhaps we are?

But, it is not very "change inducing" rhetoric, I think.

Learn from Obama. You need to couple change AND hope.

On edit: Al Gore is better in that respect.

Cheers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I'm just worried that we'll have to listen to bad Kansas from the late 1970s
Now there's a grim outlook!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gullvann Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. lol.
Bad Kansas?

Can you explain to a foreigner?

BTW: Love your avatar.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Kansas and Foreigner suck
just like deniers..

:D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gullvann Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I thought Dorothy liked Kansas.
But, I agree. Foreigners do suck. Unfortunately there are most of us :-)

But, to be serious....

I think language such as "deniers" is not very helpful to our cause.

We have to be responsible and accurate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. No - the BANDS Foreigner and Kansas...sheesh
Have a blessed day...

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gullvann Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Right. I did not know Kansas was a band name
I loved Foreigner when I was little.

Have a nice they yourself, and a great weekend.

Cheers and hugs from Norway jpak :-)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. A Denier?
Oh no. NEVER.

Having spent some years living with a cloud physicist, I have a teeny understanding of the weather research on this issue.

Two things are absolutely known by our strange species -
1. Nature NEVER stops churning around.
2. Alas, we do not yet totally understand the mechanisms and directions of that
endless horrifically complex, churning,

So lastly, like I said, our best protection is to ALWAYS err on the side of caution.

Went to your "thread" and it's right interesting.

And say hello to my dear Norwegian astro-physicist friend.

Best Wishes, Ms Bigmack


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gullvann Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Cool. Cloud physicist....
Then you know how complex things are.

Anyhow, I think this video expresses what we are talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORv8wwiadQ

Who is your friend?

I will buy her/him a beer if I get the opportunity. lol.

Cheers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Watched the Video
and will forward it around to my friends, who probably DREAD seeing my address in their in box, as I have been trying to spread this word for YEARS now! But this chap does it much clearer and better than moi. However he says EXACTLY what I meant by the "err on the side of caution" phrase. If the end of civilization as we know it is at issue, why in the bloody H wouldn't a wise, rational person take steps to minimize the possible risk????????????

As to my Norwegian friend, i doubt he would appreciate my blathering his name on a website! But if you run into an astrophysicist in Oslo, ask him if he lived in the US as a kid....and buy him a beer. He's a cool guy!

And who in the bloody H could LOL after THAT video? Ms Bigmack
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gullvann Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Good morning :-)
I wasn't laughing at the video, but about buying a beer for your friend :-)

I liked the video as well, and has tried to spread it around as well. Heck, do you think it would be a good idea to start a thread with it in the General room?

I guess at the end most people are more worried about their personal well being than the global welfare.

Unfortunately.

So, what scares me and many Norwegians is the scenario that the gulf stream will shut down. It would be quite ironic. Freezing to death because of global warming.

Unfortunately, I am not very optimistic about our global will to do something.

Even if the US gets onboard with Kyoto you still have China, India and Russia.

My own nation depends on the export of oil and gas.

At the moment we are working with the Russians to develop huge gas fields in the arctic.

I have even read that Putin welcomes warming and melting in the north, as then more oil and gas fields can be exploited.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Scary Business
the future. I too am rather pessimistic about "our" collective will to deal with the perfect storm of problems facing us. This is why I so VERY much admire Hansen and Lovelock (the independent British scientist in Devon who developed the Gaia concept). Here are two prominent, respected scientists who continue to attempt to communicate with the "great unwashed" as opposed to "just" their professional colleagues. IF ONLY reason and evidence were the primary motivations for individual and collective action.

I think a thread with that video on the General Discussion page is a great idea.

And about Norway's dependence on North Sea oil and gas....from what I read that has peaked?

Ms Bigmack (Oh, and Good Evening to you, over there!)


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gullvann Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I think our production in
the North Sea has peaked.

Hence the desperate efforts to find new areas to develop in the arctic ocean...

And, elsewhere for that matter.

I think Norway has invested quite a bit in the Canadian oil shales? Is that the word?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. PS
Hansen and Lovelock are two of my ONLY heroes - Ms Bigmack
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gullvann Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Who is Lovelock?
BTW: Hansen must be from Scandinavia with such a name :D

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Here' what the Bloomberg article actually said
<snip>

"Those natural climate variations could be stronger than the global-warming trend over the next 10-year period,'' Wood said in an interview. ``Without knowing that, you might erroneously think there's no global warming going on.''"

<snip>

``If we don't experience warming over the next 10 years, it doesn't mean that greenhouse-gas warming is not with us,'' Keenlyside said in an interview. ``There can be natural fluctuations that may mask climate change in the short term.''

<snip>

The world will become at least 2.5 degrees Celsius warmer by 2100, compared with the pre-industrial period, Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, said in March.

``We thought a lot about the way to present this because we don't want it to be turned around in the wrong way,'' Keenlyside said. ``I hope it doesn't become a message of Exxon Mobil and other skeptics.''

apparently. it has...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gullvann Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I think you did not understand my post.
I know my English is not very good, so that is probably my fault.

``We thought a lot about the way to present this because we don't want it to be turned around in the wrong way,'' Keenlyside said. ``I hope it doesn't become a message of Exxon Mobil and other skeptics.''

I tried to warn about this very thing. And it will only get worse, if 2009 is another cold year, and the polar ice continues to recover.

BTW: Did you get the my post about about the Tamino blog?

I cannot find the thread anymore.

Anyhow. I am very scared that a possible current cooling or stabilizing trend caused by la ninas etc. that has nothing to do with the underlying CO2 enduced warming long term, could derail efforts to do something to really help the situation.

Yesterday, I was watching what I think is Al Gore's latest speech on the issue. It was very inspiring. We have to fight for our environment. But, let's fight "smart", or we might just lose.

And, that does not bear thinking about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC