GM to spend $750M on the Volt

[wtmusic]

"In the business plan it sent to Congress, GM said it is spending almost $750 million to develop the Volt, much of which is going into battery research.

"The Volt is the first step in a long-term viability plan," said Rob Petersen, a spokesman for GM's electric vehicle programs.

GM executives have said the Volt's extended range electric drive technology will probably not be profitable for the company in at least its first generation. That pushes any return on investment out until at least 2016, GM CEO Rick Wagoner told a Congressional panel on Friday."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/04/autos/bailout_hybrids/index.htm?postversion=2008120518

$25B? I say give 'em a blank check. :evilgrin:

They are expecting too much from the electric car - right now. They could put out one next year with no extended range and sell a million vehicles to families who will use it as a second car.

[YOY]

1. FIRST MOVER WINS in the creation of a reliable electric car.

Mark my words.

[Nederland]

24. First Mover Advantage is vastly over rated

It's a phrase that got used a lot during the internet boom, and almost always turned out to be false.

[YOY]

38. Not in this case.

This is a much smaller group manufacturers all with set distribution channels. They have larger manufacturing capabilities, government connections, and clear marketing fixtures. Substitution products and start ups are not as much of a threat.

Software comparisons are not as apt here IMHO.

[OKIsItJustMe]

46. Witness the continued success of the Prius

One could make a pretty good case that Honda has http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-hybrid/">the better product, but Toyota has the mind share, which has translated (so far) into market share.

[YOY]

47. Yet I have heard rumors that they take a loss for each Prius made.

Prehaps this is an economies of scale situation or simply that they have yet to get all of their input materials nice and efficient.

However, each loss on their Prius model is a greater loss for their competition.

First mover none-the-less. And the first mover to the purely electrical will be the winner in my estimation...especially if their gain can hamper competition's sales in both foreign and domestic.

[OKIsItJustMe]

48. At first they lost money on each one they sold

However, that is no longer the case.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157508/page/2

Get Your Green Motor Running

Japan's automakers are zooming ahead in the eco-car race. Their lead may turbocharge their country.

By Christian Caryl and Akiko Kashiwagi | NEWSWEEK
Published Sep 6, 2008
From the magazine issue dated Sep 15, 2008

…

It's impossible to tally the direct economic effect of the green-car race at this point, but it's huge and likely to grow. The Prius is already the most popular green car in the world, and Toyota plans to raise domestic output of the Prius by 60 percent to 450,000 a year by 2009. By 2015, Goldman Sachs expects the hybrid-vehicle market (including plug-in hybrids) to grow to 2.5 million, up from half a million in 2007, with Toyota and Honda in the lead. Analysts say plug-in hybrids, which run on a battery alone for a short range, are the vehicles that will gradually ease drivers out of the gasoline age and into the electric era. Goldman analyst Kota Yuzawa says hybrid vehicles could account for 5 to 10 percent of operating profits for Honda and Toyota in 2010. And the potential markets look likely to grow as oil prices hit new highs and environmental regulations get tighter.

The focus on green cars reveals the kind of industrial vision that Japan is often criticized for having lost decades ago. Toyota launched the G21 Project, which ultimately produced the Prius, back in the 1990s, when oil prices were low and America's love of SUVs was still growing. The idea was to create a model car for the 21st century, and counter Toyota's reputation for "boring" vehicles. Toyota simply saw the long view before others, assuming that the petroleum-based economy was becoming unviable for a variety of environmental and economic reasons, according to Noriyuki Matsushima, analyst at Nikko Citigroup in Tokyo.

Toyota has since dramatically cut the costs of producing the Prius by achieving economies of scale. Toyota has already reached the break-even point on sales of its hybrids; by contrast, its foreign competitors, like GM, still have years of bleeding red ink ahead of them. Toyota says the parts in its next line of hybrids, due for release next year, will cost about half the current bunch, allowing it to drop prices and raise profits. While the company is estimated to have lost about $10,000 on each car produced when the line was launched back in 1997, "the new Prius is going to be hugely profitable," says Nikko's Matsushima, bringing in thousands of dollars per car. And Toyota aims to cut hybrid production costs over the next decade. With so much more manufacturing experience than its rivals, Toyota will be "the price leader" for the next generation of hybrid vehicles, says Matsushima.

…

[YOY]

49. Well my "economies of scale" theory was right. I guess I was listening at Biz school.

Someone tell Shrub that people can actually use their MBAs to understand fiscal/instustrial/economic situations...like he ever listened in class.

[OKIsItJustMe]

50. And, since they currently lead the market…

…it will be difficult for their competition to develop similar "economies of scale."

[DainBramaged]

2. OK, when do you start your assembly line?

Line up suppliers and have them bid components and then make and deliver those components to spec after sample testing, do validation testing, extremes testing, warranty evaluation, component structure testing for crash worthiness, assembly line integration.....


Shall I go on?

[haele]

3. Having worked government contracts, including R&D, it can be pushed through

in a year and a half with existing technology. The majority of the labor-intensive work will be to re-tool a plant and for existing partners to re-tool theirs. Besides, they've been working on the Volt concept for at least 2 years now, so they've already done some simulation and testing and have built at least one concept car, so that's a great deal of the time that they need to take before they can bring the Volt to market right there. And once the Volt is ready and at least one plant re-tooled, they can start working on other models and cut their to market deployment time in half.
GM already has resources and partnerships the government does not have, nor are they forced by law to bid if they already have an established company like, say, Tesla or Eagle, that is already doing research in mind to work with on the electrical and electronic side of the house.
They can easily do a Wal-Mart and tell the company that has technology they are interested in that if that company wants to make money selling bulk, this is the schedule and costs GM wants them to work.

Maybe not next year, but we should have at least a 2011 model out there by April of 2010.

Haele

[DainBramaged]

4. The Volt will be released in November 2010

You do not understand how large and on how complicated a scale automobile manufacturing is, not by a long shot. You do not even understand what re-tooling means, nor what it takes to begin manufacturing the new engine that will power the new generator that will power the new batteries in the new Volt.

Do you understand liability testing? I'm sure you don't.


Toyota began BEGAN research on the Prius in 1992, what year was the first model released for sale?


It saddens me how most of you think making cars is like making toys. Procurment is far different than production.

[haele]

5. I do understand, they aren't toys.

I work with Government contracts for R&D all the time, I know what it takes to develop vehicle platforms and combat systems and to incorporate emerging technology. The government's own 15 - 20 years aquisition cycle - R&D, systems engineering and logistics, testing, IV&V, fielding etc, etc, etc, has narrowed to 5 - 7 years just in the past decade. And the government don't have a "profit" to think about when deciding to deploy the product out to the fleet.
In the 90's, early 2K, I have worked with plants, yards and suppliers going through major technological re-tools, and have had to estimate the time it took for new technology to come in.

I also had a close relative that worked Crysler R&D back in the 80's and 90's; we used to compare product development, and I can tell you that even then, the commercial R&D took far less time to get into production than government R&D. And at the time, he did his engineering and prototyping without the computers capable of processing the majority of the modeling and simulation as is going on in the business now, which has cut down at least half the time for development and testing.

Volt and the concept of a workable electric car have been on the drawing boards off and on since the mid-90's. The engineering concept is there from what I've been reading in the trade papers and seeing in the conferences, in fact, it's at the "tweeking" stage for the most part. Tesla is in limited production now, and is looking to position themselves as the prototype for the American Electric Car - as they are still doing research to inprove their product. American companies - especially GM and Ford working in Europe have been working on the technology and SE applications, including requirements for factory tooling, suppliers, and manufacturing practices on fuel efficient and alternative fuel vehicles - including electric vehicles, for the past 10 years.

It's called "leverging technology and innovation." Manufacturing has been doing that for a long time, especially since the rise of the mega-corps and their ability to leach technology and innovation off their subsidiaries.

Re-tooling one plant to new technology usually takes a year and a half for major mechanical products. GM - and Ford - have many plants that they can and have in the past re-tool in parellel to speed up deployment of a product.

Sorry for snapping back at you on your high horse, but you didn't read my post very well, did you. I understand where you're coming from at this point, but I do have a good idea what is going on in major manufacturing now, and for the most point, a good quarter of the "time and money" that goes on to get a product to market is sucked up by upper management and corporate gaming. When management decides it's profitable to innovate and produce, it's amazing how suddenly, the processes magically speed up as focus is transferred from profits to the production line.

Haele

[OKIsItJustMe]

6. So, if I'm reading you right

You're comparing commercial production with warranty/liability/marketing concerns to DoD "cost plus" contracting?

How many headlines like this do you think any model of electric car would survive?

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/news/x415864525/Explosioin-injuries-man

Downtown explosion injures man

By MEGAN SCHMIDT
GateHouse News Service
Posted Dec 04, 2008 @ 03:55 PM
Last update Dec 04, 2008 @ 11:14 PM
Holland, MI —

A lithium battery caused an explosion on the top floor of the Lumir Building, 130 Central Ave., Thursday afternoon, Dec. 4, injuring one.

…

Two windows were broken in the explosion.

The battery was sitting on the employee’s desk charging when it defaulted, Niemiec said.

“We don’t know why (the battery) failed in that fashion,” Niemiec said. “I suspect at this point we will be talking to the battery supplier about that.”

…

[DainBramaged]

8. Don't bother, the DOD doesn't understand budget

[OKIsItJustMe]

9. Liability for Fire Caused by Malfunctioning Computer Hardware

http://www.ibls.com/internet_law_news_portal_view.aspx?s=articles&id=FAF777A9-66A3-4781-96FB-F038E94DAC43

INTERNET LAW - Liability for Fire Caused by Malfunctioning Computer Hardware

Staff Attorneys, IBLS Editorial Board

In the United States, individuals have filed lawsuits alleging that recently- purchased computer equipment caused fires on their premises. U.S. courts are willing to consider such claims even when circumstantial evidence is the only evidence available to support plaintiff's contentions.

Previous incidents show that a computer may start a fire. For instance, in the summer of 2006, Dell recalled over 4 million laptop batteries due to the risk of explosion and fire. On October 31, 2008, Sony announced that it supported a voluntary recall of 100,000 Dell, HP, and Toshiba notebooks around the world. The models in question contained Sony's 2.15Ah Lithium Ion battery. Sony's own notebook brand, the Vaio, was not involved in the recall. The action was initiated by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), although most of the laptops identified as potentially dangerous were sold outside the U.S.

In cases such as Fitting v. Dell, Inc., Case No. CV-06-23-S-LMB (D. Idaho, May 21, 2008) and Shaun T. Mian Corp. v. Hewlett-Packard Co., 237 S.W. 3d 851 (Tex. App. Dallas, 2007) plaintiffs sued computer manufacturers claiming that malfunctioning computer ware caused fires on their premises. In deciding these cases, the federal courts relied on expert witness testimony. Typically, in a case involving a fire allegedly caused by a computer, the evidence will include following (1) expert testimony as to the possible causes of the fire and the computer ware location, vis à vis the place that is likely to have been the source of fire; (2) the nature of the computer ware product and whether there were inherent features that might have caused the fire; (3) the potential presence of a manufacturing defect in the computer ware; and (4) if the product is found to be defective, it must also be shown that the defect was present at the time of sale.

…

[haele]

11. That's part risk management - a part of Systems Engineering -

Your scenario is placing risk management seperate from and above Systems Engineering process.
Risk management is a consideration within aquisition and implementation process of both private and public production, and is a criteria tool, rather than a defined critera of production.

The issue with risk management that we are constantly dealing with is the balance - how much risk do you allow to go through innovation and production. Making sure all risks are eliminated means no innovation - you can never insure there are no risks; you make sure risks are mitigated to the best of your ability to do so instead.
Most items we use safely year after year run risk mitigation rather than elimination - and in most cases, the chances of damage from that product are so low as to seem non-existant.
A example of bad risk mitigation estimation was the Goodyear SUV tire problem a couple years ago- there, risk was actually high but internal interests of the supplier falsified it to medium/low; with that falsified estimation, the corporation providing the finished product estimated cost savings to produce was considered to be greater than the risk of blowout or subsequent possible litigation costs. (sorry, editing issues)

As for your example, you're comparing the NIMH batteries used in large electric products with Lithium batteries used in small electronics- totally different chemical balance. Lithium batteries have been known to blow when they get old and have a horrible track record when it comes to re-charging issues.

Also for information purposes - Asian models of the Prius have an "EV" mode, where the drivers can go totally electric under most low-load driving conditions for approximatly a half hour; I've just read that UC Irvine and Berkley, as well as the Institute of Transportation studies are testing EV only Prius in the US since 2006 to extend the electric-only driving range using contemporary Prius technology; which, again, as I said, TESLA, which has been in production for almost 6 months now, has improved to a coupe with a 60 mile range per charge at full speed and driving load.
Hmmm, Toyota is planning on deploying both gen-3 hybrid improved electric with EV technology and "plug in" all-electric Prius models currently being built in Mississippi in early/late 2009. and had already started the testing of 10 Hydrogen fueled Prius (Prii?) in Iceland in 2007. It took them 2 years to both build and tool the Mississippi plant for this technology.

Haele

Technolgy

[kristopher]

12. Exploding batteries???

Surely you can find better misinformation in your effort to undermine EVs, can't you? Why not try the one where they wear out in 3 years? Ooops, that one isn't true either...

http://www.a123systems.com/technology

[OKIsItJustMe]

18. Actually, I'd buy a Volt™ today, if I could

There's a tremendous hazard associates with my "gas tank" (and the one in the Volt™) however, yes Virginia, Lithium Ion batteries are potentially hazardous.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/technology/15battery.html?_r=1

Dell Will Recall Batteries in PC’s

A Dell notebook computer in Thomas Forqueran’s pickup truck caught fire in July, igniting ammunition in the glove box and then the gas tanks.

By DAMON DARLIN
Published: August 15, 2006
Dell is recalling 4.1 million notebook computer batteries because they could erupt in flames, the company said yesterday. It will be the largest safety recall in the history of the consumer electronics industry, the Consumer Product Safety Commission said.

…

Dell has reported to the safety agency that it documented six instances since December in which notebooks overheated or caught on fire. None of the incidents caused injuries or death. Dell said the problems were a result of a manufacturing defect in batteries made by Sony.

…

[DainBramaged]

20. Those batteries were made by Sanyo, the piece of shit company I worked for

in the early Nineties. Of all the Japanese manufacturers, Sanyo was like, let me put it this way, IF JVC, Panasonic (National), Hitachi, Sony, and Mitsubishi lived in houses, Sanyo would be living in a trailer. They, their attitude, and their products sucked raw donkey ass.


And this isn't the first time their batteries were recalled. Not by a long shot.

[kristopher]

21. Different technologies, different risks

The batteries provided by A123 are not the batteries you keep posting about. You're an intelligent person, I expect you already know that. So why the deliberate misinformation?

[OKIsItJustMe]

25. Toyota Prius A123 car fire investigation report 2008

http://wikileaks.org/leak/toyota-prius-a123-car-fire-investigation-report-2008.pdf

…

June 26, 2008

…

Introduction

ETEC was recently retained by the National Rural Electrical Cooperative Association (NRECA) and the U.S. Department of Energy, Idaho National Laboratory to lead an investigation of a fire in a Toyota Prius that had been converted to a Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV) by Hybrids Plus. This document presents the report of that investigation and the determination of the root cause of the fire.

Background

In February, 2008, the Central Electric Power Cooperative, Inc. (CEPCI, Colombia, SC) purchased a Toyota Prius and had it converted to a PHEV by Hybrids Plus (Boulder, CO). This vehicle was designed to be a PHEV-15 meaning that it had a battery pack sized to provide 15 miles of all-electric driving. To effect this conversion, Hybrids Plus replaced the stock Toyota battery pack and replaced it with a higher-capacity pack fabricated using lithium-ion cells purchased from A123 Systems (Watertown, MA).

On Saturday, June 7, 2008 a CEPCI engineer was driving the PHEV Prius. The reported high temperature that day was 98F. After approximately 40 miles of highway driving, The driver noticed a warning light on the Prius’s display screen and simultaneously noticed that the combustion engine was operating at high rpm. He pulled the vehicle to the shoulder, turned the car off and inspected the vehicle. At that time, he noticed an acrid smell but attributed that to the high rpm operation of the engine. The driver restarted the vehicle and pulled back onto the highway, accelerating quickly to achieve highway speed. After another four-to-five miles, the driver again experienced a warning light on the vehicle display (although the engine did not operate at high rpm this time) and noticed a strong odor of burning material. He opened the windows and began to pull over. When the windows were opened, a significant amount of smoke was pulled forward to the driver’s area. The driver exited the vehicle and noted a fire at the right side in the rear (cargo) compartment of the vehicle which eventually consumed the vehicle. Figure 1 shows the results of the fire (See Appendix A for additional images of the fire-damaged vehicle).

…

Summary

A Toyota Prius converted to a Plug-In Hybrid Vehicle configuration was destroyed by fire. The likely cause of the fire is improper assembly of bolted joints with electrical lugs. These joints became loose causing excessive heating which led to the rupture of individual battery cells which resulted in significant short circuiting of the battery ultimately resulting in the vehicle fire.

The batteries were designed so that a spacer should have been placed between the fuse blade and the electrical lug so that the plastic battery cover would not be in compression. Compressed plastic has a tendency to creep which would result in loss of clamp load on the fastener. Inspection shows that the brass washers that were intended to be the spacers were instead installed underneath the bolt head (between the bolt and the lug which served no purpose). Additionally, there was no locking mechanism (lock washer, safety wire, adhesive, etc.) that prevented the bolt from backing out of the nut. It is likely that the bolted joint became loose over time and during regular vehicle operation which resulted in a high-resistance connection causing those components to increase in temperature.

A123 Systems’ design guidelines appear to be violated in several areas which may have contributed to the severity of this incident.

…

While we believe the A123Systems’ Nanophosphate™ cells are the safest lithium ion cells on the market, there remain ways, including improper use or abuse, to make our cells fail, which can lead to potential safety hazards to the end user. …

[OKIsItJustMe]

30. An uneasy silence grips the board.

What!? No put-downs!?

No insults to my intelligence!?

[kristopher]

31. Silence?

You've been posting stories related to a runaway chemical reaction related to lithium batteries. The incident caused by failure to properly assemble the components in the car is a totally different sort of problem altogether, one related not to chemistry at all.

I actually complemented your intelligence, and asked why you would knowingly post inaccurate information designed to cause Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt regarding electric vehicles.

How about answering that question?

[OKIsItJustMe]

34. Pretending there is no hazard is worse

Accidents will happen.

I once worked in "reliability" it was the job of my department to make sure that through sufficient in-house testing, in-field failures were minimized. Right now, the biggest liability GM (and other companies) have with EV's is the Li-ion battery packs.

They may just wear out sooner than expected. (Not terribly dangerous, but potentially a PR nightmare, and a financial liability.)

They may cause fires and/or explosions.


I've been known to say we need an alternate energy "Apollo Project" (rather than "Manhattan Project.")

Well, NASA was in a hurry. They ignored a contractor's specific safety warnings. A capsule burned; and the crew was lost. In that situation, people tend to say, "It's terrible, but the astronauts knew the risks."

Let's say GM does the same thing and customers die as a result. How long do you think it will take EV's to recover? (Seen many zeppelins lately?)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/27/BAG8ANQ2P71.DTL

SAN FRANCISCO

Warming Hut cafe closed by car fire

Chuck Squatriglia, Chronicle Staff Writer
Saturday, January 27, 2007

An electric vehicle parked outside the Warming Hut at Crissy Field caught fire early Friday morning, damaging the popular cafe and gift shop so severely that it will remain closed for several weeks while the National Park Service makes repairs.

Golden Gate Bridge security officers saw a two-story pillar of flame shortly after midnight and alerted the Park Service Fire Department, which extinguished the fire within 30 minutes, said Rich Weideman, a spokesman for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area.

Investigators determined the blaze started with an electrical fire in a nearby Gem electric vehicle. They do not know what went wrong with the vehicle, which was unplugged and parked on the west side of the Warming Hut, Weideman said.

The Warming Hut is among the park's most popular buildings, a place where tourists and locals buy coffee, food and souvenirs. Visitors are now encouraged to visit the Crissy Cafe not far away at the Crissy Center.

Friday's fire was the second time a Gem vehicle has caught fire at the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. One of the DaimlerChrysler-made vehicles caught fire a year ago at Alcatraz Island. That vehicle was plugged in at the time, prompting GGNRA officials to adopt a policy requiring that unattended vehicles be left unplugged, Weideman said.

Park officials will work with the company to determine what went wrong.

[wtmusic]

33. Um, maybe no one responded because your post is idiotic.

Someone found a way to make a powerful battery blow up by violating its manufacturer's standards.

If you light a fire under a gas tank it, too, will explode. Keep trying.

[OKIsItJustMe]

35. Actually, it's rather difficult to get a gas tank to explode

But we're talking about a manufacturing problem here.

So, let's compare it to the Pinto. Ford made a http://www.fordpinto.com/blowup.htm">bone-headed design mistake with the Pinto (because they were in a hurry to get it to market) which made it more likely for a fire to occur in a rear-end collision.

That pretty much did in the model.

[DainBramaged]

45. That's what usually happens when you contradict God TOYHONNISMAX

:hi:

[wtmusic]

13. You advocate outlawing cellphones and laptops then?

One Li-Ion battery fails - out of how many million in service? Gimme a break. :eyes:

How many headlines like this do you think the internal-combustion automakers could survive?

"There have, however, been two separate fire incidents involving 2007 Chevrolet SUV’s. This week, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration officially opened an investigation into whether the 2007 Chevrolet SUVs are susceptible to catching fire. Chervrolet SUVs are made by General Motors.

The formal probe follows two separate incidents where an SUV ignited while the engine was turned off. Both incidents took place while the SUVs were parked in home garages. Two people were injured in one fire, and a great deal of property damage occurred during both incidents."

http://www.productliabilitylawblog.com/automotive_product_liability/fires/

[OKIsItJustMe]

19. No, actually I don't

However, imagine if only one car in GM's initial batch http://www.ka9q.net/ev/ev1fire.html">catches fire or explodes. What will that do to the market?

Just think of how rumors like "http://www.snopes.com/horrors/freakish/poprocks.asp">Exploding Pop Rocks" or even true events like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Chicago_Tylenol_murders">Tylenol murders effect the marketplace.

Heck, consider how many times someone on this board will cite the Hindenburg as a reason to avoid hydrogen!

People are not rational. (Ever hear someone explain that they won't wear a seat belt because they might get trapped in a burning or sinking car?)

[kristopher]

22. So you see it as your duty to encourage the misiinformation?

Odd sort of logic you practice.

[OKIsItJustMe]

27. No, I'm just a realist

When a company is selling a mass-market product, an occurrence which is quite unlikely to happen to any individual item becomes much more likely.

GM is dealing with battery packs which have never been used in a production vehicle before. How much testing do you think is appropriate to avoid a PR nightmare?

[wtmusic]

26. Do you tuck that "EV fire" link in bed each night?

I know you love it, but really - trotting it out in every pro-EV thread is a little silly. It was an issue with the charging port, not the battery, and frankly you're the only one I've encountered who thinks this is a deal-breaker (by the way, the Volt will have a charging port too. Yikes).

I can't account for idiots, they're unpredictable anyway. Maybe GM should aim their marketing towards people who are rational.

[OKIsItJustMe]

28. Do the math

How many EV-1's were there? How many caught fire?

OK, so what if there had been 100,000 EV-1's and the same failure rate occurred?

[wtmusic]

32. I get your point - since the Volt has one of those deadly charging ports

it should be scrapped before anyone is killed. :D

[OKIsItJustMe]

36. No, it won't be the charging port

There are always unforeseen problems with a new product. Some of them are minor, some of them are not.

GM (hopefully) learned their lesson on the EV-1 charging port. What new lessons will they learn with the Volt™?

[wtmusic]

37. Ah, now we've come full circle.

From

"However, imagine if only one car in GM's initial batch catches fire or explodes. What will that do to the market?"

to

"There are always unforeseen problems with a new product. Some of them are minor, some of them are not."

Can I assume from your confusion that there is nothing inherently dangerous about EVs or lithium-ion batteries? You really have quite a quandary here.

[OKIsItJustMe]

39. You can misrepresent my argument if you like

There are always unforeseen problems. Some of them are minor, some of them are not. If GM rushes a prototype onto the market, without extensive testing, failures (minor and major) will be more likely to occur.

There are inherent risks with EV's and Li-ion batteries. These cannot be completely eliminated. (Heck, you could electrocute yourself. Something which is virtually impossible with a conventional car's electrical system.)

Your belief is that you can slap a battery pack and an electric motor into a car, and its perfectly safe to mass produce it! The Prius/A123 fire is a reminder that it's not true. Remember, we're not talking about Uncle Eddie the tinkerer here. That modification was done by http://hybrids-plus.com/pmwiki/index.php?n=Ext.History">Hybrids Plus, a company that's done many similar modifications, and (assuming the others were done the same way) they're all at risk of a similar fire.

GM's talking about shipping many many more cars than Hybrids Plus.

Knowing that they cannot completely eliminate risk, their task is to minimize it to some acceptable level. That means extensive testing.

[wtmusic]

40. Do you work for GM?

Just curious - I notice you use the "™" symbol after every mention of the "Volt". Prius is also a trademark, so perhaps for consistency's sake it should also be Prius™, no?

[OKIsItJustMe]

41. Nope, got nothin' to do with GM (never even owned one of their vehicles)

Volt is a measure of electric potential.
There's no other meaning for Prius (that I'm aware of.)

[wtmusic]

42. Me neither...they're pieces of crap, aren't they?

My dad was a solid Chevy man. Knew the dealer, but had problems with every one of them.

Then they finally make a decent car with the EV1, and crush them all! Go figure.

[OKIsItJustMe]

43. I can't say the EV1 wasn't a piece of crap

My folks had a couple of Oldsmobiles. I guess the first couple were OK.

Now that I think about it, Dad had a Corvair too.

However, after Dad bought an Oldsmobile diesel, I don't think they've even considered another GM.

[DainBramaged]

7. (sigh)

NO manufacturer can 'Wal-Mart' a vehicle today. I did read your previous post. And if you are so adept at your job, why not go work for the auto industry and help speed up development of the new platforms.

You keep holding up Tesla as the beacon. Kit cars out of the range of the population are not the way to introduce efficiency to the masses. And I wonder, if you think they are dong such a good job, why don't you 1) own one, and 2) noticed they are in HUGE difficulty right now.


The Government may have the funds to leverage technology and innovation, but then again, the DOD never worried about funds either.


You sure expect a lot from an industry you probably despise. Oh and do you OWN a Domestic car, or why shouldn't the Japanese be contributing to your war-time program of shove it out the door, we will fix it in the field?

[haele]

14. Smile, you're swinging at windmills instead of at me.

Yes, I own a Ford. Have always owned a Ford. My husband had a Honda once, but the majority of his cars were either Ford or GM. My dad has always owned Dodges. My brother owns a Toyota built in the US, his wife owns an old Crysler LeBaron.

You've been reading my posts through your own filter - I have relatives that work in the auto industry, as well as US aerospace. My Grandmother died from leukemia contracted at a WWII Convair plant where she worked in the paint shop. I may work for the government, but I work in installation. And I work as a commercial government contractor right now as an installation analyst for contracts, aquisition, and systems engineering, having been in the military and seen it from that side as well - I've been working since 1977. I regularly go to both commercial and DoD industry trade shows, because my job, even as "low level" as it is requires I keep on top of the latest technology because I need to evaluate what comes across my desk for implementation risks and test maturity levels as well as the ability of the product or process to be standardized across several diverse agencies and cultures. The company I work for has made an investment to transfer to Green Technologies as part of their development expertise and are trying to position themselves to be experts in providing cost-effective Green R&D and engineering support to manufacturing - including some divisions that focus on re-tooling issues. I have current technology theory, prototyping and innovations at my fingertips on a regular basis.
I understand US manufacturing very well.

We can do it - and fairly quickly, because technology developments grow in an exponential manner - what took 5 years of research and prototyping 10 years ago takes only 2 years now.
But this is only if the corporations want to spend the time and resources to innovate.

Haele

[wtmusic]

15. It was amazing how fast GM pulled together the EV1

when they realized the 1990 CA Zero Emissions Mandate might stick, and the law worked as a spectacular incentive for seat belts and air bags.

Thanks for your input :thumbsup:

[DainBramaged]

16. But they ONLY started on the Volt in 2007 and it will be completed in 2010

I think 3 years give or take a few months from concept to completion is pretty good.


http://www.chevrolet.com/fuelsolutions/

You folks have GOT to let the EV1 go. It's NOT coming back, and I am sure most of you who lament it's demise are buyers of Foreign tin.


Thanks for all of the legal links, that's outside my pay grade.

:hi:

[OKIsItJustMe]

23. To be fair, they got a "leg up" on the Volt™ from the EV1

(That's one reason why development has been relatively quick!)

[DainBramaged]

17. o disrespect, and your resume is impressive, but you aren't an engineer

and if you think you can make a difference, send your resume to one of the Big 3, or is Government work a little more comfortable?

[haele]

29. Ah, the "Comfortable Government Worker" argument...:)

Sounds like there's a bit of a chip when it comes to that.

I could probably make a difference with the Big 3 if I didn't make more difference saving taxpayer money and helping develop innovation and technology working for the Government. Not all of us are cubicle pigs at the taxpayer trough (spell check is not always your friend), you know...
I also only have a lowly PE and INCOSE CSE cert and massive amounts of work experience instead of a degree, because I was too busy getting my edumacation in technical innovation "on the job" as it were. Corporations tend to hire by what's on the paper and narrow it down to people from the right "network" to get the jobs that make a difference in the corporate world.
I have big issues with US manufacturing and the elitist Corporate culture that has been fostered over the 1980's and 1990's - lots of good people lost jobs because they didn't play the game right.

If you're lucky enough to have been able to get a degree and score a nice job in product innovation in a major company, good on you. Not everyone with talent or expertise can do that.

Haele

[DainBramaged]

44. Keep your day job, make a real difference.

:hug:

[kristopher]

10. That is a probable product option IMO

I'd think the engine and charging system for the extended range feature has a fairly high weight penalty in addition to the added costs; so there would be a definite positive trade-off in added miles/charge and lowered costs.

EBox has the extended range system as an option with the basic battery package being able to offer 120-150 miles without the weight of the engine.

I don't know how popular it would be, but I think we will soon find out.