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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 11:37 AM
Original message
What does Gaia want
It just occurred to me (OK, been reading Ouspensky) that it's the other way around. We are not using Gaia, She's using us. For billions of years She's been storing solar power into fossile capital, now in century or couple humans unleash that energy back into the system, starting a chain reaction of unknown consequenses called "climate change". She's larger whole, inclusive of us and everything else about Her, how can we know what she wants and what place we have left in Her plans if any? For all I know, it's still best to go along with the best idea I've met so far - ecocommunities. Maybe also our wishes and prayers of Paradise on Earth also matter to Her - and why wouldn't they, as also We are part of Her. Let's just hope that Gaia loves Herself, also during her agony of Change.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. We have no environmental problem
We have a people problem. No matter what happens, Gaia will have an environment. Whether that environment includes humans remains to be seen.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. Biospheres do not have desires. They have basins of attraction.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I think
it's not up to us to tell Biospheres or Planets what mental characteristics they have or don't. That would be hubris.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. No, it would be science.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Mostly yes
Edited on Tue Dec-23-08 03:04 PM by tama
but there is also science (fringe, "kooks") that is not hubristic. That kind of science tends to get kicked out from academic hierarchies and nominated "best candidates for book burning" etc.

Can you spot the Eye in this Ponzi scheme aka pyramid fraud?

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Science IS hubris...
Edited on Wed Dec-24-08 07:51 AM by GliderGuider
Charles Eisenstein says it a lot better than I ever could in his remarkable philosophical book, The Ascent of Humanity:

Together, the Scientific Program and the Technological Program form a defining myth of our civilization. The two are intimately related: technology, our ability to control the world, arises from science, the means by which we understand and explain the world. Technology in turn provides the means for science to probe even more deeply into the remaining mysteries of the universe. Technology also proves the validity of science—if our scientific understanding of the world were no better than myth and superstition, then the technology based on that science wouldn't work.

Philosophers of science will protest that it is already well-established, even in conventional circles, that perfect knowledge and perfect control of the universe is probably impossible (due to such things as mathematical incompleteness, quantum indeterminacy, and sensitive dependence on initial conditions). Be that as it may, this information has yet to filter down to the level of popular consciousness, even among scientists. What I am talking about is the faith encapsulated in the saying, "Science will surely explain it someday." It is the faith that the answer is there, the answer is accessible to science, and that science itself is well-grounded in its primary principles and methods. The technological corollary to this faith in science is our faith in the technological fix. Whatever the problem, the solution lies in technology—finding a way to solve the problem. Science will find an answer. Technology will find a way.

Underlying the Technological Program is a kind of arrogance, that that we can control, manage, and improve on nature. Many of the dreams of Gee Whiz technology are based on this. Control the weather! Conquer death! Download your consciousness onto a computer! Onward to space! All of these goals involve controlling or transcending nature, being independent of the earth, independent of the body. Nanotechnology will allow us to design new molecules and build them atom by atom. Perhaps someday we will even engineer the laws of physics itself. From an initial status of subordination to nature, the Technological Program aims to give us mastery over it, an ambition with deep cultural foundations. Descartes' aspiration that science would make us the "lords and possessors of nature" merely restated an age-old ambition: "And God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth" (Genesis 1:28).

Yet a contrary thread runs concurrently through the world's religious traditions, a recognition of the hubris of our attempt to improve on nature. Greek mythology has given us the figure of Daedelus, who arrogated to himself the power of flight in violation of ordinary mortal limitations. The power to transcend nature's limitations is for the gods alone, and for his temerity Daedelus was punished when his son, Icarus, soared too high in his desire to attain to the heavens. In the Bible we find a similar warning in the Tower of Babel, a metaphor for the futility of reaching the infinite through finite means. Have we not, through our technology, attempted to rise above nature—sickness, uncertainty, death, and physical limitation—to attain to an immortal estate?

Of course this doesn't mean science is useless by any stretch of the imagination. However, we in the West have a tendency to see science as the only means of arriving at "valid truth". Unfortunately, as Eisenstein points out, science is necessarily incomplete. Worse, from a philosophical perspective, it defines as valid only those things within its domain, rendering its reasoning circular, or at least guilty of an inherent selection bias: Its success at proving hypotheses that fit the system (i.e. can be measured by a skeptical observer) prove the validity of the system, while any hypotheses that don't meet that criterion are simply discarded.

In our culture science is assumed to be the only framework of inquiry that can identify truth. However, the twin shibboleths of objectivity and determinism reside unremarked at its core like worms in an apple, regardless of the insistence of quantum physics and chaos theory that both assumptions are delusional. To the extent that any truth is subjective and contextual (as most truths are, to the average human being) science has less place as a tool for interpreting "reality" -- much to the dismay of hard scientists, but to the delight of social scientists who know an opening when they see one.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. To be flip, George Carlin figured she wants "plastic"
Edited on Tue Dec-23-08 12:01 PM by GliderGuider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

To be serious, I think Gaia simply plays whatever hand she's dealt. Our actions, the actions of other life forms and physical processes damage or doom living species, not Gaia Herself. If Gaia (whether she is in some sense "real" or just a human projection) simply changes character as her elements change.

We are the moral agents who must live with the consequences of our actions. Let's hope that we can forgive ourselves and learn to love ourselves as part of the web of life during the coming changes.
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. ..
Until today I respected Carlin. There's no denying one species has sped up the extinction of others that should have been strong enough to survive almost anything.
I know the planet will survive, no kidding George, and someday there will be new animals, but humanity's big F-up is something I will never laugh about.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. You might have noticed that Carlin wasn't laughing
He induces laughter in his audience as a calculated way to get them to lower their guard. Then when it's down he slips in the shiv.

Don't misunderestimate old George. Everybody that saw that routine laughed, and then went home thinking very serious thoughts indeed. That monologue was a very effective act of eco-revolutionary propaganda.
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. i react
I'm not even reasonable about it.. I just lost it when he started putting down environmentalists and got the crowd cheering. You have it right though.

If I don't have a little patience I might as well disappear tomorrow because the next few decades are gonna be murder. I keep telling myself to laugh
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. One other thing -- Carlin singled out a particular kind of environmentalist to skewer
His target in that monologue was shallow, light green, sleepwalking environmentalism -- a style of environmentalism typified for me by the likes of David Suzuki. I think it's an embarrassingly egocentric stance. I rather suspect Carlin might have been a bit of a Deep Ecologist, and might have supported spiking trees in old growth forests or ramming Japanese whaling ships. Changing light bulbs to save the planet, maybe not so much.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Yup
That's how I see it also, partly - reciprocity between inclusive whole and it's parts. But Gaia Herself is also part of larger inclusive wholes - solar system, Galaxy etc.

So what I'm thinking right now is that in 2012 AFAIK stellar alignments will go so that Earth will be receiving some galactic attention IIRC from the galactic center. Dunno what that means but I'm thinking about the fact that in Earth's history, magnetic poles have flipped many times. We don't know the reasons why they flip, but we know that has happened and it has not meant the end of life on Earth. If in 2012 the magnetic systemic becomes unstable and stabilizes let's say in 2014 the other way around, those will be interesting years, to say the least. I presume the electro-magnetic global communication networks would basically shut down - and maybe that would not be such a bad thing in the long run. Couple years without TV etc., maybe people would wake up... and think again how dependent they want to be from high tech.

Of course there are many possible futures and we cannot know with certainty which will be realized.

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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. I've never been religious, but
.. our species wiping out so many others is so cosmically wrong. Us killing coral reefs and blowing up mountains and tearing down forests for farms and suburbs has me convinced we're the embodiment of pure Evil . That's the most I know of anything that's not physical.. that the human race is essentially dirty/wrong, stupidly Evil.
So then I have to admit that Evil does exist. So maybe there's an opposite force of good, but it sure is failing.. the BIGTIME failure.

At least we can't kill the planet, we can rape her and turn her into a pile of trash but she can wipe us out too. Then she might have a use for what's left of us someday! :) That's more stuff I'll never know.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hippies.
Can't live with them. can't kill them.

oy vey.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. What a dilemma n/t
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. The only problem with hippies is
that they were right.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Patchouli is NEVER right
x(
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. ROFL. I had a buddy in college who said it smelled like "hippie dirt".
Funny thing was (and this had nothing to do with individual hygiene, apparently patchouli DOES have sort of a dirty undersmell all by itself) I used to like how patchouli smelled until he made that comment.

Because then I actually noticed the "dirty" undersmell that I hadn't noticed before, and I could never enjoy patchouli again.

That's OK, though. My incense days are LONG behind me.

But your post made me remember...and laugh.

Thanks. :hi:
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. That's why they are so hated. That, and the enslaved loathe the sight of a Free Person.
Agree or disagree with the Rainbow Hippie Lifestyle, the hippies have been right abour AT LEAT two thrids of issues since they came around in the 60s.

Being right that much, eswpecially about things that can't make anyone any money, invites near-universal hatred. I wish much of life wasn't that way, but it is.

Jesus was a Liberal Hippie, look what he did in the temple to the moneychangers, the lousy socialist.

The World, well at least the part of it that became the Christian World, HAD to figure out a way to worship someone whom they would personally to a person would loathe and despise and hammer the nails in themselves, if they had never heard his name before.

How to do that? Turn Jesus from a Liberal Hippie into a Murdering Monster with a gram of Phony Hippie Lip-service to fool the Rubes with Plausible Deniability.

Jesus was a Liberal Hippie. But people KILL Liberal Hippies throughout history, they don't worship them.

So Jesus had to be made into a Bushie, in spite of the fact that is the literal opposite of near everything the man said.

So what? When it comes to humanity, nothing has to make sense to be effective.



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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. Insofar that the Earth can "want", she wants what any other sick person wants.
To be free of infection. To be well and whole again.
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. that reminds me of this video:
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Thanks
great video that everyone should see.

So we project and perhaps can't stop projecting, perhaps can, but as long as we project, we have some freedom of choice concerning what we project.

A good friend told me a story about friend who was diagnosed with a terminal cancer and given just few weeks to live. The woman with cancer decided not to spend her last days in misery and self-pity, blaming the cancer for her bad mood, but decided to love and cherish her last days, her self, in all, including the cancer. She talked kindly to the cancer, sang to it, loved it just like she loved all life. After a while when she went to see a doctor, the cancer had disappeared.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Wow. Just wow. VERY conscious and self-aware video.
Pretty much says it all.

I find it quite amazing how close to "transient human truth" science and the pyramiding of ideas has gotten us. I shudder to think that this vast knowledge with which to understand human beings, the mind and the world, is now being used by State Criminals like CheneyBushRoverer, with all it's attendant power and success.

Think about it: They are sauntering out the front door, having just gone on basically an eight-year crime spree that cannot be truly understood outside the Third World. Trillions of dollars stolen, tens of millions of lives ruined, a couple million dead who would not have otherwise been, including over 4,000 American Soldiers who gave an oath to defend liberty, not expand unConstituional Bushie Tyranny.

And they are laughing their way out the FRONT DOOR, with the fucking M$M band playing them off on a wave of champagne lies. KNOWING they will NEVER be prosecuted, the same way Grandpa Prescott ALSO committed high treason and was not prosecuted.

Success? That's they very definition of it. Sucker the whole town, then walk boldly, laughingly out the front door after EVERYONE KNOWS what you did.

Sorry, I got off on a tangent. Maybe I will post this as an OP. (minus the thanks for the video part)
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