The end of growth is here.

[Gregorian]

http://www.postcarbon.org/end_growth

Perhaps economic growth could still be maintained by smoke and mirrors—in either a good or a bad way. All that would be necessary is a little fiddling with the definition of “growth.” Just look at how the US government has altered its way of defining “inflation” over the years by largely excluding energy and food prices: if the old rules were still in place, the country would be seeing double-digit inflation. The same has happened with “unemployment.” Why not “growth”?

[opihimoimoi]

1. Its all about math

and why we ain't going nowhere

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY

[Esra Star]

2. Thanks for that. Beautilully articulated.....nt

[Gregorian]

3. OMG. And I mean that. Thanks for sharing this.

I am watching Schindler's List tonight.

But, I watched the first fifteen seconds of that video, and all I can say is, you replied to the right person.

What appears to be simple math is actually quite invisible to most people. There is both a schism in understanding a curved line on a page, and the reality behind it. I'm dying to watch that video. And here is why- I can't describe it with words. But I have spent nearly my entire life watching this. Observing. I am dying for a population forum here. I want to discuss this. But it's taboo. It's more about greed and sex than population. In fact, just this morning I lost something that was valuable to me. Lance Armstrong. He joins the ranks with Sarah Palin. Going on his fourth of fifth child, he now fits into the category I title "breeder". My enemy. I won't be rooting for him in this next Tour de France. I know, even weirder. The hell with what people think of me. I'm telling the truth. I'm angry. I'm tired. I see. And most people can't even tell it's happening. They must see it and deny it. Or something. In short, there is a disconnect. And I am more than certain that we aren't going to pull out of it. In order to create a world that utilizes renewable energy we are going to have to manufacture so much stuff that, well, I think you see where I'm going.

I was just describing to someone yesterday how that curve, the exponential, was essentially flat for all of humanity. That was stability. People could have as many children as they wanted, and it didn't affect anything, hardly. But that all changed, and recently. And now, it's vertical. Now, no matter what we do we're making huge changes that affect everyone. Which is why I coontinue to say that it's no longer a "me" world, but a "we" world. And no one listens.

So, have this-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh-hdLKITZA&feature=related

And thank you. Because I can see that when I get a chance to see your video that it'll be of some comfort to know there are a couple of people who get it.

[opihimoimoi]

4. OMG.......OMG......I been here since 2001.....you are the first to respond to hints and clues

in the manner expressed ....I sit shocked and awed.....Forgive me...I had to catch my breath....I think I get it.....maybe a long time ago..

I am hoping to meet someone interested in discussing Altruistic Subject Matter....you seem to be it..

Currently working on a project.

The Project addresses Population and Limitations and how to Set Goals for Optimum Living , Globally....

The Project also addresses the Blueprints of How to Achieve Optimum Living and the means to sustain the Level.

It describes an educational system that works so good, our Military has adapted it in their training manuals.

Its still in the incipient stage of production/implementation.....I have tons of ideas to advance ourselves....

I welcome collaborators to discuss and brainstorm...

Opi

[Gregorian]

5. Really? There are others. But not many.

In fact, I was shocked while out on my daily bike ride when I ran into one of the local doctors who also mountain bikes. We were blabbing away and I mentioned the logging that was planned to take place near our ride. And he started talking about the thing that is unmentionable. Population being the driving factor behind the consumption. And I was shocked. Once in a very great while I meet someone. I am assuming his understanding is due to the biological growth pattern he picked up in premed classes. But most people don't make the leap to humans. Their brains stay in the petri dish.

I'm far from optimistic. In fact I would say that I am hopeless. Well, for my lifetime at least. But I would, or I should say I need, to talk about this. I'm at my wits end. After many years of essentially running from one property to the next, I now own a timber ranch. And I am finding that what was a rural area when I started my journey, is no longer. It is liberal. There are Priuses roaming all over. I'm disgusted that what was such a nice place is, at least to me, undesirable. So you see, this, for me, is personal. I can no longer run. I may have one more move in me. IF there is even a place to go that has what I wanted so much. I started out in Palo Alto. It was a gorgeous little town. That ended. And the journey began.

Just the other day I was telling someone about 1492. Those white guys showed up. This was a continent in it's purest beauty. Some natural human beings lived here. Then a few hundred years later some settlers showed up. And within the time that they began to live, and now, it went from pure beauty to having nowhere to hide from the automobile and developments. I live in a near continuous state of disgust. And rightly so. But it's taking it's toll on me. I watched Shindler's List tonight, and realized how much I've lost. How far from my original soul I have ventured. And I'm not alone. Even if people don't realize it, as the population has increased, the value of a human has decreased. It becomes harder for us to tolerate each other. I sensed that like never before, this Christmas. A cold distance as shopping carts passed each other in the market.

This all happened around 1970, for me. I witnessed the killing of my little home town. I was a kid. And I would give anything to unlearn what I have discovered. I now loathe "breeders". I won't deny it. And it only hurts me.

But like I was saying, I am less than optimistic. And I say that because the part of the curve we are on is vertical. It's that part of the curve that is very difficult to break out of. It requires a complete concerted effort on behalf of everyone. Sure, in 100 years the planet could be devoid of human life if we all stopped having children. Short of that, if we even have one child, we halve the population in around a half century. That's still close to the 1975 world population. Not good. And that's if everyone had one child. That isn't happening. The Palins and Santorums and Sneddons have something like twenty kids between them. Remember Sneddon was the goon attorney who tried to prosecute Michael Jackson. Whatever. They are exceptions. As a rule, people's eyes are a feedback mechanism. Out of everyone I know I would say there are a half dozen children. Pretty slim. But we're on the super liberal side of the scale.

And I'm only looking at American society. In Asia, that's where the action is. Indians cheered that stupid six billion day. I spent it cringing and simmering with anger.

So for me, what is happening now is just a matter of self preservation. I just want to find a place to live, and be happy. It's totally selfish. I give up on the human race. If they're going to change, it's going to be so slow it won't matter. And I partly say that because global warming is a direct relationship to this problem. And it's an emergency. And population is not only not an emergency, it's not something people discuss. So until we can talk freely about your sex life, we aren't even going to get to discuss population. In fact, it's well known that in order to continue the growth, governments fear population growth slowdown. It IS happening. In France I think they're trying to conjure up ways to get people to have more kids.

So I saw Shindler's List. In my heart I know that we are here to love each other. And yet I talk as though we're amoebas. I talk like this because I don't want us to be amoebas. More people means more wars. It doesn't have to, but it does. That is the reality. I wish people would be more vigilant. And responsible.

It's late. I could bore you to death at ad infinitem. But I'll spare you. :)

[opihimoimoi]

6. Me thinks we gonna have fun in discussing this challenge of addressing

the problems plaguing us no end....most of which stems from over pop and poor blue prints....

The Fun lies in finding solutions that work....

My time is short today due to pressures.....we will chat soon enough on many subjects and in varying degrees....

Opi

:toast: Ho Ho Ho

[Gregorian]

8. Part two of that video. Thank you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb3JI8F9LQQ&feature=channel

I didn't want to start replying all over the place. But I can't help but do that.

Part two is like a christmas present. I can't thank you enough for sending this video my way.

It's not raining. And I want to be out on my tractor. But it is cold. And my head is full of glue. And this is fantastic!

I'm blabbing about- the dilemma. For years I felt like Satan. An ogre. A bigot. Everything that we were doing that was good for society was also good for overpopulation. Seatbelt laws. Helmet laws. How on earth could I be so angry at this? But now that the old codger physics man puts it on a page in two columns, it's quite logical. And he reverses things and asks which one do we want to have happen as our choice, versus which one do we want foisted upon us by nature. Now I've been saying this for years. But never has it been stated so that it's not just some angry guy talking. Now it's obvious what is happening. It's not news to me. I've been saying that we choose, or nature does it to us with ruthless abandon. But still, I'm thrilled to simply see it from someone else. I guess it's vindicating.

[Gregorian]

10. Part three

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFyOw9IgtjY&feature=channel

[Gregorian]

11. Part four

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQd-VGYX3-E&feature=channel

[Gregorian]

12. Part six

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-X6EpvWWu8&feature=channel

[Gregorian]

13. Part 7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyseLQVpJEI&feature=channel

[Gregorian]

14. Part 8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoiiVnQadwE&feature=channel

[Gregorian]

32. This is part six. The previous one is part five.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3y7UlHdhAU&feature=channel

I hope I got this one right.

[tom_paine]

15. So very well said, this deserves it's own OP in GD, I think!

And your next to last 'graph, pretty much sums it up.

Ironic, isn't it? If there is a God, She has quite a sense of humor.

If we are here to love each other, and that loving often leads to wild reproduction - it's all tied into the biological and evolutionary necessity of the emotion 'love' as it relates to the reproductive drive, I think - then our loving (I am using it with all it's multiple meanings here) helps create) creates helps lead to the very situation that you decry with such brevity and clarity in your next-to-last paragraph.

She's got a sense of humor. Yes, indeedy.

[Gregorian]

17. We are the creature that didn't know when to stop.

And with the power to make that so.

I've just finished watching all eight parts of the video. It should be mandatory viewing for every person on earth.

I've battled some of my engineering friends who claim that Malthus was wrong. Or that the billions of barrels of oil we'll discover will pull us out of the mess we're in. Or that global warming doesn't exist. Or that we can engineer our way out of this. All of these, mechanical engineers with the same years of calculus that I've had.

Over the last ten years I have physically begun to break down over this. This morning is one of those mornings. I'm sick. My head is like a hangover. I hold my breath at night. And I'm angry much of the time. Listening to the old man, I now see that it's not just me being a nutcase. But like this forum, until I realized politics in America, I had no idea why I was in such a state of frustration over our society. Reagan's era brought yet another layer of frustration for me. And until I realized things like repealing the Fairness Docrtine, I just assumed I was neurotic, and needed to get drunk just to anesthetize myself. Years later I discovered what a mess we are in. No media to speak of. No control mechanism. A country gone wild with Straussian politics. Corruption. No, I'm not nuts. No more than anyone else. I suffer from good vision.

Sheesh, what were we talking about?

By the way, today is the 365th day that I've been without electricity. Speaking of energy. I'm using far more than my alloted American standard of 1.8 liters of petroleum per day. Hopefully planning will come through, and I'll have a house soon. But after having this thread of discussion, I have renewed doubt about what the hell I'm doing. Another house?! Good lord. All in the attempt to escape the hoards.

But I've digressed from whatever it was we werre talkking about. Argh.

:)

[Duppers]

45. I share your angst

there are DUers (from my state who frequently post in the lounge) who openly and zealously deny global warming and who defend the Duggers as if their lives depended on it. They truly think nothing is wrong with people having as many kids as they can financially support! And they believe that they are intelligent! Unfortunately, they are the majority of Americans.

[Lorien]

47. I understand what you're saying completely

I'm one of those people who gets attacked relentlessly if I post anything about my population concerns. I would have liked to have had kids, but I can't, in good conscience, become a "breeder" knowing what I know. It would be unfair to the person that I brought into this world. Besides, my sister has already had two, so that cancels out my opportunity in my book.

Whenever any of us bring up population we're immediately attacked as being "anti-choice" or "anti-freedom", or worse, called a child hater. Nothing could be further from the truth; only those of us who love humankind enough to recognize the reality of our situation will actually speak the truth on this matter and do what we can NOT to cause more suffering. I'm always stunned that so many here on DU can't understand that.

[Gregorian]

7. No wonder people don't get it. This isn't entertaining. But it's great stuff.

The video needs to be watched several times. Even with many years of math, it went too fast for me. I hadn't seen the shortcut 70 rule before. But my math was rigorous engineering math. No shortcuts.

I'm quite out of it today. My head is like glue. And it has been 18 years since I had a math class. I've forgotten a ton.

One thing that keeps coming back is how many different ways there are to look at this subject. That one curve.

We're like infants playing with fire. And yes, we don't know what tomorrow will bring.

He is giving a typical lecture, and it goes way too fast. And as usual I don't like how it's presented. But watching it several times works for me.



For me, the bottom line is this- We live in a modern society. People are either educated or not. And if educated, then we can make educated decisions. Otherwise we are at the mercy of the very thing we modernized to get away from. That being, the law of the jungle. I see people breeding and driving like there's no tomorrow. No wonder my head hurts. I'm furious as I watch this idiocy. And any intelligent person would be. Now that is a subject unto itself. And perhaps I could use some therapy. But the best therapy would be to see every person getting an education. No exceptions. You are alive, you are going to learn math. We're so quick to toss people in a cell. I don't know what could be worse. So when I think of how people tend to react to forcing education down someone's throat, I still say we do it. Lock up the kids and force math upon them.



By the way, even after many years of math, I still needed to see this video. This stuff is easy to forget.


Wow, part 2 is even better. It's all of the stuff I've spent years talking about, and never heard anyone else mention. He's wrong about immigration though, unless he's just talking about US population. And he clearly isn't. But I can overlook that.

[opihimoimoi]

9. Some people get it ....usually those that have made LEARNING an Art Form

having said that...listening is part of Learning...far too many people want to talk instead...worse, they hog the discussion...make it into a bragging session...we see them everywhere...campfire conversation bullies....they can't help it...ignorant...still "grasshopper"....but then that is life as we know it...


now we look forward to change and advancement from the status quo...this is what Obama and others wish us to do...by solving ...via gov't from the looks of it....only because thats his realm....

Our Realm is different...we are individuals with same agenda of wanting to solve for what seems like impossible global problems...and yes, we can do that too...

I have thought of a way to revolutionize education...its kinda hokey but I think plausible/innovative/and fun to puill off. I hope to form a team ...for this is much too big for any 1 or 2 guys...this will need a vast team with many skills and resources...

I am 68 yrs old...not too much left in me...wish to share before I get a friggen stroke or an attack.

Many skills and tools, many concepts/Ideas/models/projects in diversified areas....from fish progagation/marketing to ceramic/glass creations...and now, Global Luaus focusing on Friendship/Education....

I need a Team....so far I got only the beginning basics(about 6 people) ...still in formation phase....

Are you interested in helping by discussing/brainstorming/etc??? No monies....

Opi

[Gregorian]

18. I'll be 53 in two weeks.

And like I was mentioning above in another post, today is the 365th day I have been without electricity. I bought a ranch, and god forbid, I am building a house. It's a very difficult job due to the zoning. I am building to be away from the hoards. But I am building. Something I deplore. What a paradox. Hypocrisy?

I don't know how to answer your question. At least at the moment. I've said that enriching myself would never do much to help comfort me in comparison to living on a sane planet with fewer people using fewer resources. And I already have what I need. Having said that, I know someone who is working on a new website concept. He wants to create a place for education. This could be the proper forum for something along the lines of what you are thinking.

And by the way, my dad started an electronics corporation when he was 67.

I'm disparately searching for some way to diminish the suffering I am going through over the things that are in that video. No amount of money will help. I found that out when I made money. So perhaps this is where I need to be.

I am feeling awful. My head is throbbing. But there is a spark of something. Maybe it's hope. Maybe if I am engaged in actively working to change something that is this important I will find a contentment.

Thanks.

[opihimoimoi]

26. 53...god, I wish I had those years back...so much to do...you are lucky...

no electricity?? what ya got... generators??

Chain saws?

Buck saws?

Hand drills?

OMG...

What is the size of your plot? acre? 10? 10000? a good size for a one man op should be about 20 acres or so,,,just a guess

river? a stream? a well? water source.....

trees? Ash? cotton woods. fir, pine, oak?

Crew? Ya need a crew guy...I hope ya got a crew...at least 1 or 2 guys....1 man is too slow and induces hewadaches an shit

Cement mixer? gravel, sand, rocks??

Send pics...I can help layout, plan if not too late....

How far along are youy???

Opi

[Gregorian]

30. I've got 100 acres of redwood.

And I've been feeling like 100. Mostly because in the last five years I have developed migraines. I never had a headache in my life. This subject we're discussing is more important than anything. I am finding that it has affected my sleep. And thus the agonizing days of searing pain. But I believe I have reached a point where I see that I cannot be so serious. I've managed to lessen the headaches. And I thought they were hangovers. Well, it ends up I don't drink any more. I miss it. But I'll probably never have another beer again. It's weird.

Yes, I've got a diesel generator. I run it a few hours a day. I'm in an RV until I get the house built. I'm building a steel house! It's pretty cool.

I've already submitted plans to the county. But what a pain in the ass. It's in the California Coastal Commission zoning. Which means botany, archeology, etc. It's a massive and difficult gauntlet. And quite expensive.

Yeah, I'm pretty lucky. It's a premier piece of land. And it's a liberal community. Which is hard to find in a semi-rural location. My beef with the area is that it used to be primo rural. Now it's kind of a long distant suburb of the San Francisco area. But hey, what isn't trashed these days? I've moved from place to place, and they're all screwed up one way or another. My last place was a gorgeous farm on the coast of Oregon. Logging noise all night long. I lasted two years before coming back to California. And this is partially why I am so distraught about human growth. I've watched firsthand, the destruction. The vast tracts of land deforested before my very eyes. And ears.

I want to thank you for posting that video series. It has been a major help to me. I've started thinking about the math I took. Calculus, logarithms. I have not used the tools I have in my possession. Fifteen years of running away from the developments after graduating. I can't wait for my house to be started. I might just sit tight for a few years. It's rough, as everything I own has been in storage for two years. I can't find a damn thing I own. Just languishing away in this stupid RV. Fish and Game did their inspection last week. I was told that I'm not even supposed to be living on this property. Screw em. I may get in trouble, but I don't have much longer to go.

Phew.

[Delphinus]

22. I watched that years ago

and the overall picture has stayed with me. Too bad it just doesn't sink in to the heads of our leaders.

[opihimoimoi]

23. Most of them know how to get elected....how to SOLVE is another matter

Nothing promising yet....

[joshcryer]

41. Interesting about the doubling effect.

Especially the part that the period after the doubling uses as much as the *total period before the doubling*. An obvious observation, but sometimes easily ignored. Looks like nature will slow us down regardless.

[bhikkhu]

16. ...one can hope

it is a sad commentary on our species that "the end of growth" is likely to come not from a decision to stop destroying the planet, a wish to end wars over resources, a desire to live happier and more fulfilling lives, a desire to preserve from extinction so many other species, or any other act of collective intelligence...but it will very likely be determined by the physical limits of our planet's geology: it will be a future that far to many will imagine themselves being dragged kicking and screaming into. I enjoy life myself, very much, with very little; for me, an end to growth is the beginning of an unpaved future, the rebirth of this world. On the other hand, it is hard to think of how much suffering is inevitable...

[opihimoimoi]

19. Its called the MISERY PREVENTION DEPT....Them SQUEAKY Wheels cry our for GREASE

BSA......"Be Prepared"

[diane in sf]

20. You can have growth without using more energy or physical matter by embedding more

information. You might enjoy reading Buckminster Fuller--he was on to this 30 years ago. I recommend "Nine Chains to the Moon." Buying music over the internet and never owning a physical record, tape or CD is one example of this.

[Gregorian]

21. I suggest you watch the video that's posted in this thread.

It isn't very interesting unless you find this subject important. And even then, it takes some patience.

I haven't bought a record in decades. In fact today I'm going between listening to KUSF and another radio station. There is a problem with the logic that one can download stuff off the net. It takes a computer. And that requires hydrofluoric acids, and all kinds of resource and energy intensive things. It takes far more resources to get the equipment to download from the net than it does to buy the albums. I can't prove that, but it's well within the range of reason.

Population IS the problem. Growth cannot be sustained. Period. The video is perfect at explaining it. No growth can be sustained. Not even one percent.

[bananas]

39. Yes, Buckminster Fuller coined the term "ephemeralization" to describe that process

and is related to "Moore's Law" for the example you gave of recorded music.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeralization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moores_law

[Waiting For Everyman]

24. Kick, too late to rec.

My father, who is in his 90's now and was a highly-educated school teacher, was on to this in the 1950's, and wrote a book about it for which the Board of Education rescinded a promotion it had given him to principal and any promotions afterwards. He put in 40 years anyway. Just sayin', that's what the education hierarchy thought about his interest in population.

IMO, traveling to jobs and schools is the big problem. We should tremendously increase the number of people who are allowed to do this from home, when possible. Also, how about a credit for hiring workers within a tight radius, and a penalty for hiring outside it? A lot of people work in major cities and live somewhere else altogether - an hour's commute or more away. Instead, we should encourage some companies to locate outside of the cities where those commuting workers are from. This would also relieve the need to build ever-bigger beltways.

It seems to me some of this could be done with policies.

Thanks for the video links.

[opihimoimoi]

25. Your dad got robbed by social injustice...its madness...we like to think our gov't got it but then

along comes the GOP to screw things up to tell us different.

Traveling costs money...we could use a flex system of sorts...good for low and high volume..

Our people got very little imagination to innovate with...sad

Its the system...we need better systems with larger goals..

[Gregorian]

27. This subject is highly threatening to most people.

This is because it addresses LIMITS. Ie, responsible behavior. That translates to thinking rather than just freely doing.

I have suffered the same fate as your father. And worse. What a shame. Shooting the messenger.

Even with five years of engineering mathematics, I have lost so much of it that I am going to have to go back to the books just to get a feel for logarithms. Although the "70" rule for doubling is a great thing. But the biggest problem we face is an ignorant society living a modern lifestyle. I liken it to being a bike rider who commutes along side of cars. It became painfully obvious to me just how much power the average driver wields. It's like all the power that an Egyptian king could have ever asked for. So here we are with what amounts to an amplification of our being, and yet no control system (brains) to go with it. We blab about helmet laws, and yet all the while we're literally melting the planet we live on.

I'm almost saying that to a fair degree we should all have educations in engineering. It sounds stupid. But it's the only reason I know what happens when I flip a light switch. And why I know better than to leave it burning.

But the video takes this all to a different level. One I honestly didn't realize. And that is, even a 1% population growth rate per year would mean that we would be doubling our population every 70 years!!!

And another thing people (sorry, I realize I'm replying to your post and not going on a diatribe) don't get is the significance of the exponential curve, and where we are on it now versus back then. Back then we could do anything. Doubling our numbers did nothing. WITH RESPECT TO OUR LIMITED RESOURCES. But now, when we double... It's a disaster now. And it is because even that one percent growth is adding huge huge numbers to an already dying planet.

I post this as someone who almost can't take it any more. I honestly don't know how to personally handle it. It's why I posted the subject. Every car I hear is like a knife going in to me. I had to leave my home in the San Francisco area because I could no longer tolerate the low frequency rumble of a million cars every morning. That's how it's probably affecting others as well. I probably shouldn't have posted this last part.

[lutherj]

28. When the economy stops growing, it becomes a zero-sum game.

For one person to make more money, someone else necessarily needs to make less. The old rationalization that "a rising tide lifts all boats" will no longer hold. As the economy starts to contract more and more people will be shoved out. The economic elite will try to impose some kind of feudalism or caste system on humanity while spouting empty promises about "fixing" the economy. I predict the mother of all class wars.

[Gregorian]

29. We may actually need negative growth.

I've been sitting here thinking about the beginning of the exponential curve versus the vertical part where we are now. It's funny that I'd be out in a forest on my mountain bike thinking of logarithms and calculus.

This is strictly aside from what you were saying. The economic aspect is something that needs addressing. I think it could be called the humanitarian side.

In the beginning, we could double without any trouble. A million people became two million. It was probably a benefit. The planet didn't notice we were even here. But as we approached a certain size, the planet began to suffer under our strain. Mostly combustion byproducts.

The question I've been asking is, is the planet sustaining us? We're alive, so it seems that it is. But I argue that it isn't. With poles melting, temperatures increasing, fish depleted, it very well appears that it isn't sustaining us. And this has great ramifications. It means that we are already too big, and we cannot grow. It means that if we do grow, we're going to see trouble far greater than is appearing now. These are words. I almost doubt they mean much. But if I could express what I see in my brain, it would be clear that we're actually in much greater trouble than appears to be the case.

1% growth of the human race means doubling in 70 years. 14 billion people in little over a half century. That is scary as hell considering only one percent growth!

We absolutely cannot grow. At all. And in fact, with respect to what you are saying, if we do grow, I would wager that the situation of hoarding would be far far worse. That's because the resources are finite.

[lutherj]

31. True. I've read in various places that the estimated carrying capacity

of the earth for the human species is about 2 billion. So the question is: how to we get there? Obviously, it's unlikely there will be any political solution. Nature will supply the answer.

One idea that occurs to me is a kind of universal opt out. We start to convert existing towns into ecovillages, and offer to anyone who wants to the opportunity to live there, working to create the village, grow food, make the basic necessities. In doing so they get to opt out of mortgages and debt, plus they get guaranteed health care and retirement, and a simpler lifestyle. It would be a new kind of homesteading. However they must also agree to sterilization. Everyone else gets to make do in the shrinking economy.

Try running for president on that platform.

[Gregorian]

33. Try running for president on that platform. I love that!

I had a long discussion this morning about how to bring this issue into the foreground. And your sentence kept coming to my mind. The guy I was talking to is going on 85 years old. He's one of the few who actually see and understand this subject. He said that we need to get people just as fearful as Bush's fear program over so-called terrorism.

I mentioned making this into a movie. And then your sentence popped up. Who cares? Who really is interested in this stupid subject? It's about as exciting as going to church.

I'm going to write Obama's staff. I was on a bike ride the other day, and a local doctor piped up about population. I was stunned. I'll be contacting him. Maybe we can open people's eyes to this dilemma of growth. It's not even a dilemma. It's an impossible situation. One last thought, nothing lasts forever. So I can't save the planet. It's for me. I'm doing this so I can live without the depression and hatred I've had for so long. And maybe even to help out this planet.

Or something... :) Sometimes strong feelings lead somewhere other than the expected.

[lutherj]

34. Actually, I think there's a substantial number of people around who are

aware of the problem, and care about it. I also think you could make a ripping futuristic movie about it. End of civilization plots are standard fare. If you haven't already seen it, I'd recommend the sequence of slideshow movies at Chris Martenson's Crash Course web site.

http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse

It's a good summary of the various crises that are converging on humanity (global warming, peak resources, a bad economic system, and global population). But I agree, the scale of the problem is overwhelming. I see you live in Mendocino. That's definitely a nice place to sit and ride it out.

[Gregorian]

35. Interesting videos.

I see they have an economic context. The funny thing for me is that I'm beyond the economic stuff. Having made enough to not have to have loans, or worries, I have moved beyond it to the next stage. The one where society has shut down. Then what? I see that as being more at the heart of the ultimate situation. It's the pure form of where this is headed, not that we'll ever get there. I'm thinking society, while others are thinking about themselves. And rightly so. I'd be freaking out if I hadn't been lucky enough to have gotten what I wanted. My point is, even if you do have everything financially set, when it hits the fan, that isn't going to do a thing for you. I have always had a vision of the day I go to Safeway and it's closed. People laugh at this kind of talk. And I don't spend my time thinking about it. I think people who do are a bit nuts. I've lived in areas where a financial meltdown isn't hardly going to make a dent. They have their own dairy farm, sheep, crops. In fact, it's an enormously complex subject. That's why I like the topic of growth, and that doubling concept. It is simple, and puts things right out there.

I'd love to do a movie. I know what it would take. And even then it may be a flop. I'm thinking. I don't know where to go. But it has to be done. A global warming, population film that feels like a North By Northwest, or Vertigo.

I hope you don't mind me having extended this blabbing. It's a subject that has been festering in me since around 1972. I got my driver's license and began seeing things outside my neighborhood. What a horrible shock. The developments just killed me. What were dairy farms on the San Francisco penninsula were turned into concrete and 7-11's. And after running for 20 years to find a place to call home, and having tghe developments follow me, I have given up in a heap. Now I feel it's time to say something.

[lutherj]

36. I've wondered occasionally if the current population density isn't partially

responsible for the underlying anxiety that pervades society. One in four Americans are on anti-depressants, and I can't help feeling that the social contract is breaking down. People feel that they have to fight tooth and nail with everyone around them to get what they need. It's the too-many-rats-in-a-cage syndrome.

[Gregorian]

37. I've always thought that.

Although anxiety has been with us since the beginning of time. I know the large increase in population has caused massive problems.

From a recent real estate study I saw, the number one reason people relocate is NOISE. I was surprised as hell to read that. I thought it was job related. Nope. That speaks volumes. It's why I have moved over and over. It's why even my property doesn't satisfy me totally. Occasional jet noise from those heading to Hawaii. I've spent almost a lifetime studying this rotten phenomenon. I had hope to find a home and just start living. However, now that I think of it, it was the frequent moving that helped me accumulate a very good income. I never started my real estate journey for money. I did it for beauty and silence. Half a dozen moves later, and I had money, and little of what I originally intended to accomplish.

[opihimoimoi]

38. Hey, 100 acres in the hinterlands sounds comfy....I hope it got water on it...like a stream

Kinda like Andy and Red settling in at San Juantinaro (Shawshank Redempt)

Please send photos....would love to see it....

I am thinking of making a Blog....will focus on Greening the Planet....

We just got our electricity back after 17 hours....

I was responding to your last post when the lightning hit...lost everything...

Oh well, I will catch up soon

Opi...

[Gregorian]

40. That was a great film.

I've tried photos. They don't work. Although I've got a few. It just looks like a bunch of green.

Here's a recent bonfire-

[opihimoimoi]

42. Hot water during winter...whad ya doing??? Oh well, I guess ya go too much fire wood

to worry bout stumps...lol

Only thing to worry about are bears and those big foot fellas.....

I guess ya gonna make log cabins what with logs everywhere...got them band saws??

You are a lucky dude....

Damnnn...what a life...

Opi

Thanks for the Photo

[The2ndWheel]

44. When the economy grows, it's still a zero-sum game

For one species to take up more space, some other species necessarily needs to have less. Deforestation, pesticides, monoculture crops, etc, etc, etc.

[Gregorian]

46. I'm trying to imagine zero growth.

I had this discussion yesterday. Recycling is one part of it. But I am afraid that zero growth excludes a modern lifestyle.

One thing I've spent years thinking about is how in the early lower population part of our existence, we could do just about anything and not affect the planet. Whereas now we hardly do anything in these numbers, and it's of horrible consequences.

This means in order to live any kind of comfortable lifestyle we absolutely must decrease our population. All of this talk about passive solar homes. Billions of them? No way. Millions? Yes. We could do that. But this subject just goes on and on. In order for an Isaac Newton to be born, we had to have a significant population from which a genius could emerge. Assuming calculus was something we even needed. But in order to have modern "stuff" we needed calculus.

Deforestation happens, as you know, when we remove more trees than the forest can handle. Believe me, I've watched closely as forests turn to monocultures, as well as places where temperatures rise dramatically.

All I'm saying is, we are too big.

I don't know what to do about this. My life is fucked. I am angry. When I watched Vertigo the other night I watched the traffic, and listened to the man in the boatyard discuss how the magic of the city was gone, and it was getting too big. 1958. I saw that city back then. I was a child. And I'm angry. I can't even find a rural place now that is quiet. I've rambled enough.

I don't know what to do now. Thus, this thread.

[tom_paine]

43. Gregorian and opi: check this thread out and the YouTube it links to..

If you haven't already.

It's right up the alley of what this thread is all about.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x180226