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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 05:04 PM
Original message
Carbon sequestration drilling begins
http://www.union-bulletin.com/articles/2009/01/22/local_news/090122local01carbon.txt
Updated: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:21 PM PST

Carbon sequestration drilling begins

By VICKI HILLHOUSE of the Walla Walla Union-Bulletin

WALLULA -- For the next several months the sensory experience of a drive past Boise Inc. will include sound: the rumbling of a giant drill boring into the ground.

Drilling has commenced on a scientific test at the property to determine whether the area's unique geography can play a role in the reduction of greenhouse gases.

"What you see behind us is the culmination of about five years of effort," said Peter McGrail, the Battelle scientist leading the project, during a visit to Boise's pulp and paper mill Wednesday.

Over the growling of the drill ¬--- a towering piece of equipment sandwiched between Boise's mill and the overpass on U.S. Highway 12 -- McGrail explained how a "germ of an idea" funded with a small lab endowment has grown into a more than $10 million study.

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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is all very well - but it is not an excuse to continue
putting more CO2 into the atmosphere.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Who claimed it was?
Edited on Thu Jan-22-09 09:46 PM by drm604
This is a method of avoiding putting CO2 into the atmosphere, not an excuse for continuing to do so.

Whether or not it's a viable method remains to be seen. I'm somewhat skeptical of it myself.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. This is certainly a positive sign. I hope it works without the customary unanticipated ecological
Edited on Fri Jan-23-09 04:28 AM by tom_paine
side-effects that efforts like this almost always seem to engender.

I am hopeful about this particular technology, though I certainly need to do more reading on it's specific workings, because from what I can see of this technology it is trying to sort of "dircetly reverse the course" of il drilling/fossil fuel burning, and I think in general, trying to reverse what we have done (where possible) is certainly less likely to cause unintended side-effects than opening, shall we say, a new seperate and invasive project (like seeding the oceans with iron or somesuch) trying to reverse what we have done.

Anyway, of the many technologies that have a chance to make a significant impact on our environmental problems WITHOUT causing a whole set of new ones, Carbon Sequestration is among the best.

Hope.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Disagree.
1) Pumping liquid CO2 3000-4000 feet underground (i.e., into a heated
environment) is not the best thing you can do if you want the CO2
to stay there as you are *introducing* thermal cracking to undisturbed
strata (excluding the borehole itself of course), planning on the
migration of the introduced pressurised substance (else it would
simply stop in the close vicinity of the borehole) and still trust
that said planned migration would proceed as desired despite the
unknown nature of the cracking.

2) Determination of when a given reservoir is "full" is non-trivial
and worlds apart from determining when a given fossil fuel reservoir
is "empty". This gives the dilemma of either "not pumping to capacity"
or "attempting to over-pump". Given the commercial driving of any
such company, I would put money on which approach will be taken.

3) The concept of "directly reversing the course of fossil fuel
drilling/burning" only works on the most trivial level as the carbon
concentrations of the original and "replacement" fluids are widely
different.

4) As always, putting in any form of coping measure *before* performing
the necessary reduction in source will NOT achieve the trumpeted result
(reduction to blah ppm CO2) as it will NOT address the ever-increasing
generation of CO2.


The one point I agree with you on is with regard to unintended side-effects
(vs "seeding the oceans with iron") - not because it is less likely to have
side-effects (see above) but because the side-effects will be largely local
problems rather than ocean scale (outgassing kills a village rather than
toxic blooms killing a fishery) and the cost of screwing around is so
different (it is much cheaper to dump iron into the ocean than drill the
hole, courier the CO2 and pump it down).
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. All good point's, especially #4. You know more about the technology than I do.
Edited on Fri Jan-23-09 07:29 AM by tom_paine
4 is the BIG ONE.

I also think you ae definitely right about local vs. global impacts.

And oh yeah, "outgassing". I guess I didn't think about that. I once read about a case of a lake in Africa outgassing a giant bubble of CO2 than settled on a town on the lakeshore and killed many in the 1980s. In THAT context, outgassing could definitely be a major "local" problem.

On 3, you busted me. It was oversimplistic and you called me on it.

Outgassing speaks to 1 and 2. Or should I say, speaks with them.

OK, you have certainly made me think. I imagine that there is a school of thought that says most of our actions should be on the consumption reduction (and therefore CO2 emission reduction) side, and let earth's ecological systems assimilate the added CO2 in it's own good time.

If so, and I am not sure I disagree with that, please elaborate in terms of where the line is drawn.

I'm not saying this to be adversarial, but merely curiously inquiring. Lately, it seems like there has been a clear dearth of clean, clear debate on DU, and thus your civil and thoughtful well-bolstered and disagreeing reply is to me as a glass of water to a thirsty person in the desert.

So, I guess what I am asking is, "Please tell me more." Do you believe all geoengineering is unwarranted here? Is it because of unintended side effects solely, eco-morality, or other underpinning ideas, data, and beliefs?
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. And yet #4 is the one that so many choose to ignore.
Re. outgassing tragedy
The lake you were thinking of was Lake Nyos (in Cameroon) which
in 1986 released over 80 million cubic metres of CO2 and killed
over 1,700 people along with 3,500 livestock (and left many more
of each suffering respiratory problems).

With regard to my original points, the "outgassing catastrophe"
risk is mainly #2 as attempting to force too much into the reservoir
would result in a sudden explosive failure in the operation at or
near the surface whereas the effects of #1 are much more likely to
be much deeper and slower (though they could be devastating in the
longer term).

My concern with #1 is that they are a blatant gamble: they cannot
know exactly *how* the fracturing will occur as they cannot examine
the surrounding/overlying rock in sufficient detail. This means
that it is yet another "suck it and see" experiment where the risk
outweighs the potential benefit.

I didn't mean to pounce on your simplification (via point #3) but
that concept is *exactly* how this sort of scheme is being sold
and Joe Public will go along with it as "it sounds a sensible
thing to do".


> I imagine that there is a school of thought that says most of our
> actions should be on the consumption reduction (and therefore CO2
> emission reduction) side, and let earth's ecological systems
> assimilate the added CO2 in it's own good time.

As always, I can only speak for myself here so the following is
simply one person's opinion. I'm not totally against the idea of
"helping" the natural processes to process the CO2 eventually but
*am* 100% against any "assistance" projects starting off before
we have stopped spewing ever-increasing amounts of CO2 (et al) into
the atmosphere. Anything else would not only dilute the attack of
strategies to reduce CO2 emissions but would actively encourage the
maintenance of the "business as usual" approach (with an added helping
of "give us your money" conmen taking away the already constrained funds
available for the environment).


> Do you believe all geoengineering is unwarranted here?

In the short term, the above means that I am against all artificial
sequestration projects. (I inserted the word "artificial" as replanting
the forests that we've removed would technically be a "sequestration
project" and I am not against that!)

In the longer term, my doubts over the ability for generic humanity
to change its nature suggest that the "short-term" will simply continue
until it is too late.

With regard to other "geoengineering", it would depend on what or how
you classify things as, to a pedant, the mere existence of a human
population is a geoengineering activity: we change the planet to some
extent by every adaptation to events and every exploitation of resources
that we make.


> Is it because of unintended side effects solely, eco-morality,
> or other underpinning ideas, data, and beliefs?

Probably "all of the above". :-)

The "unintended side-effects" reason takes precedence on many of the
current rash of "let's do it" projects. I'm not sure quite what you
mean by "eco-morality" but if it includes anti-dominionism (i.e., not
putting the desires of a few humans over the effect on the rest of
the world) then yes, that comes into it. "Underpinning ideas & data"
come into play with things like the OP and other geology (and the
human interactions therewith) issues. Other beliefs? Possibly but not
in a conscious way (I'm not an adherent of any particular religion,
not a party-line follower for any political organisation, not sure
what else you would include under that heading?).

So yes, I can support my opinions but, ultimately, (as with every other
poster here), it is the opinion that steers my writing (or rambling as
posts like this tend to turn out ...).

(And thank you for your friendly debate too! :hi: )
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. Hey, what could go wrong?
> For the sake of the Wallula pilot test, McGrail said the
> liquid carbon dioxide will likely not be local. He said the
> test requires pure carbon dioxide, which will probably come
> from a refinery in Blaine, Wash. The carbon dioxide can be
> brought in by rail.

It certainly is a "germ of an idea" ... along with all of those
other "germs" masquerading as "carbon sequestration" projects.

Don't play with dumb plans to temporarily hide the CO2 under
the carpet, STOP producing the fucking stuff.
:grr:
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