Supercritical Water As A Molten Salt.

[NNadir]

Today I was reading a paper entitled "Activation of biomass-derived charcoal with supercritical water" by a combined team of French and Spanish scientists about the treatment and (partial) gasification of Arawa stones, the pits of a very common Guyanese palm that is widely eaten in that part of South America. The pit accounts for 80% of the volume of the fruit.

The paper is Daniel Montané et al, and is found in Microporous and Mesoporous Materials 119 (2009) 53–59.

From the paper:

Awara is an edible fruit harvested from a widespread spiny palm tree of the Amazonian basin: Astrocaryum vulgare (Arecaceae), commonly named awara palm. The fruit is especially well known from Guyana. The seed is very big, occupying about 80% of the volume of the fruit itself. Viscous oil having recognized medicinal properties may be extracted from awara stones. In addition, fibers from the leaves are also used for manufacturing fishing nets, bags and hammocks in Peru and Brazilian Amazon. Because of the substantial amounts of awara stones produced by South America, giving added value to this material, like other tropical biomass, is meaningful.

One always has to be a little bit nervous when people start talking about how "useful" tropical biomass is, but no matter. The science is interesting.

The point of the paper was to examine the pore size growth in pyrolysis derived chars of the nuts with a view toward certain materials science applications but there was an interesting discussion of supercritical water - which is water above 373^oC, a temperature beyond which there is no distinction between the liquid and gas (steam) phases of the substance.

While they are well known in inorganic syntheses, pressure methods are seldom used in carbon science. Pressure, through different induced effects, allows the preparation of materials that can generally not be prepared in other ways <1>. Pressure increases both the reaction rate and the homogeneity of the resultant materials, and allows the stabilization of metastable phases. Among the various kinds of pressure methods, hydrothermal ones are those using hot and pressurized water (typically at least above 100^C and 1 bar) <2>.

Supercritical water is very remarkable stuff, but what I found interesting - something on which I seldom have thought to reflect - is the change in the self-ionization constant of water, called pK_w which is, for those who haven't taken a chemistry course, a logarithmic term. (The 'p' function is the negative log₁₀ and accounts for the concept of pH.) The pK_w of normal water is 14, meaning that the pH of normal water is 7. By contrast at 25 bar and 600^oC the pK_w is 8.8 meaning that the pH of water under these conditons, neutral water, is 4.4.

This accounts for the corrosive nature of supercritical water. (It's not so corrosive that it doesn't have practical application: Many coal fired power plants generate supercritical water for its energy efficiency value.)

Because the ionization is so high, water behaves in some ways as a salt, a molten salt. From the paper:

...water molecules are more dissociated into H3O⁺ and OH_- ions, thus with an increased trend to behave like a molten salt. Consequently, many reagents are at least partly soluble in such a medium, helping and even making possible a number of reactions that would require much higher temperatures. In a reciprocal way, synthesizing metastable structures is possible in pressurized water at moderate temperatures. Because of the aforementioned peculiarities of supercritical water, it is expected that such a medium has a different activating action towards carbon as compared with standard steam activation. So far, only a few studies were carried out on this subject (see <6> and references. therein). In the present work, a char from awara stone was chosen for conducting the corresponding comparative experiments.

Esoteric maybe, but cool all the same.

[drm604]

1. Most of this is way over my head.

What do they do with these treated arawa stones? I assume it has something to do with energy production.

[NNadir]

2. Biomass gasification is a way of making natural gas and or motor fuels from biomass.

In general these methods are superior to fermentation methods because they are more flexible and can be used in shorter cycle times using a broader range of materials. They also don't depend on fragile enzymes.

I very much doubt however that they will be able to sustain a large industrial scale car CULTure economy, but they have some utility.

Drawbacks to supercritical and high temperature steam gasification have to do with the fouling of catalysts by carbon and other impurities, but I suspect these technical problems are relatively minor. When the price of oil is close to $100 or higher, they are attractive.

Several plants using this type of technology already operate, many using coal rather than biomass. The largest in the United States to my knowledge off the top of my head is the Eastman Chemical acrylic acid plant in Tenessee, which makes intermediates for synthetic polymers, most of which are elsewhere oil based.

[jpak]

3. I note - with contempt - that the NJ molten salt breeder reactor is a fraud

:rofl:

[NNadir]

5. I note with contempt, that as usual you are making stuff up about subjects on which you know...

...nothing at all.

Your understanding of technology is, in my opinion, close to zero, which is the reason your only response to evocations of technology is insipid giggling, consistently, almost 100% of the time, except when you google some distorted spin from the vast circlejerk of self referential anti-nukes.

In general, I do not hang out with weak-minded dogmatic mystics in my personal life, and the likelihood that <em>any</em> such people know anything at all about my personal life is about the same as the probability that solar energy will cause the shutting a single dangerous natural gas plant in the United States: Zero.

I certainly wouldn't have you over for a giant yuppie dinner, because, to be frank, I'm not all that fond of drinking, for one thing, and, for another, it would be impossible to conceive of having a person at your moral level in the presence of my family.

Therefore you and I <em>only</em> know one another in the context of this website, but if one looks at the pathetic body of your posts, about of which consist of dumb giggly smileys, and the other half consists of disinformation, we can recognize that you almost <em>never</em> know what you are talking about.

[jpak]

6. I note again with all due contempt - the charlatan NJ molten salt breeder reactor is a fraud

take your meds

:rofl:

[Systematic Chaos]

7. And solar power in Nevada is still nothing but a dipshit emoticon parenthetical wet dream.

Feast your eyes on that joke of an "Other" column and weep. Or make more doodles out of emoticons. Or just ignore it. My money's on the third option.

[jpak]

8. I feast my eyes on sockpuppets

:rofl:

[Systematic Chaos]

9. I'm not anybody's sockpuppet.

I just know the difference between unmitigated fantasy, falsehood and folly and the simple truth.

Now, how about you go back and address that chart I linked for you, showing that renewables (read: SOLAR) in a state which is blasted with intense sunshine the vast majority of the time account for only the tiniest fraction of all energy used here. I'd really rather have you comment on that than make baseless accusations.

[jpak]

10. In 1955, the number of kwh generated by commercial nucular power plants in the US was ZERO

feast upon that.

[Systematic Chaos]

11. There were two ways to handle this response:

First would have been the jpak way, which usually features spouting gibberish when confronted with anything. But then my rational mind kicked in and I realized that countering gibberish with yet more gibberish is great if you're Penn & Teller.

But since we aren't, and I like to try and turn as much of my time here as I can into a learning opportunity, I chose instead to use "t3h G0ogl3".

http://search.conduit.com/ResultsExt.aspx?ctid=CT1434207&SearchSource=3&q=1955+%2B+pollution+%2B+death

Isn't karma neat? Why, just on the first page of results when I did a search for the year 1955 + pollution + death, I find all kinds of hits talking about the passing of the Air Pollution Control Act, which, of course, was our government's first attempt to save American city dwellers from the filth generated almost entirely by the burning of fossil fuels!

Sure, we had none of those damn pesky noo-kew-lurz back then, but by golly people were dropping like fucking flies from the filth they breathed in every single day! And Congress had to step in and try to do something about it that very year! Cool, eh?

So, how much more of your homework am I going to have to do for you in this thread before you finally make a contribution that's worth a damn? "Sockpuppet" that I am and all, it shouldn't be too hard, right?

Right?

Bueller?



Edit - to fix typo in title

[jpak]

12. There is only one way to handle that response

:rofl:

Your stupid argument is this - solar electricity comprises only a small portion of electricity generated in sun drenched NV *today*, and cannot contribute any more in the future.

If that was true, the status of US commercial nucular power in 1955 was a valid predictor of its contribution today.

and that is just plain stupid.

:rofl:

[Systematic Chaos]

15. No.

My argument is, why do renewables continue to provide essentially diddly squat to our energy profile when I'm in a place where it should be so easy to do? This shit was promised back when I was in diapers almost 40 years ago. So, what's the hold up?

Maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal if the slack weren't taken up by - you guessed it - fossil fuels effectively 100% of the time, but it is.

And the planet just keeps growing hotter.

If they said tomorrow they were going to put a nuclear power facility in Vegas, I'd be thrilled! Tell me another 500 or so solar rooftops have been put up, or another thousand solar pool heaters were just installed and all I can do is laugh. Except I get sick of typing in emoticons because after a while they look pretty "stupid" too.

[jpak]

21. There are NO nuclear power plants in NV but Yucca Mountain will cost NV taxpayers $4B

New Yucca Report: Nevada May Have to Pay $4 Billion

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?s=3730391

Billions of dollars in Yucca Mountain costs may have to be passed on to Nevada taxpayers. The 3.8 billion in estimated public safety expenses should be paid by the federal government, but Clark County planners believe we'll be the ones to shell out the money.

County leaders are bracing for what may lie ahead. The nearly $4 billion is an estimated cost of what Clark County, Las Vegas, North Las Vegas, Henderson and Mesquite will have to spend on public safety during the 24 years when nuclear waste will be shipped to Yucca Mountain.

Clark County commissioners got their first look at the report Tuesday that contains 84 pages of charts and graphs, and one big number -- 3.8 billion.

"Four billion dollars over a course of 24 years is a huge, huge burden." Irene Navis is the county's liaison to Yucca Mountain. This nearly $4 billion is money that is to come from the Department of Energy to be used to bolster public safety programs to handle any Yucca Mountain related accidents. "The DOE's own documents admit and acknowledge there will be accidents that there will be incidents with release of radiation," Navis said.

<more>

Again, there are NO nuclear power plants in Nevada - but NV nuclear advocates think it's OK to shell out $4 billon to take care of SOMEONE ELSE'S spent fuel.

Nevada has a 64 MW solar thermal power plant (Solar One), an 18 MW PV plant at Nellis AFB and another "grid parity" 12.5 MW PV facility in Boulder City, NV.

Nuclear power does squat in Nevada and costs NV mega$.

Solar power makes a real and growing contributiuon to NV power production.

Your argument is just plain....

:rofl:

[NNadir]

22. And of course, the crap from your CAR never ends up in Nevada's air, right?

You and the rest of the dumb fundie anti-nukes are very careful about keeping Nevada's dangerous fossil fuel waste, including but not limited to carbon dioxide in Nevada at all times.

Oh, I see your criteria is arbitrary.

What a surprise!

Used nuclear fuel is the only energy byproduct that can be contained indifferently anywhere.

Giggles, you are really a piee of work.

Why don't you and Mom put duct tape on the windows to keep the dangerous fossil fuel waste and any Kr-85 in the atmosphere out of the McMansion and have another drink?

The external costs of energy, including the stuff used to light up the consumerist billboards of Nevada - many of which use electricity generated at Palo Verde, are the responsibility of all humanity, little whiny retards, and decent people alike.

[jpak]

24. There is only one way to handle that response

:rofl:
:rofl:
:beer:

[jpak]

25. "you are really a piee of work." Series??? That's hugh!!!11111

Get some brains..etc...

:rofl:

[NickB79]

16. In 1952 the number of kwh generated by PV solar, research or commerical, was also zero

http://www.southface.org/solar/solar-roadmap/solar_how-to/history-of-solar.htm

"In 1953, Bell Laboratories (now AT&T labs) scientists Gerald Pearson, Daryl Chapin and Calvin Fuller developed the first silicon solar cell capable of generating a measurable electric current. The New York Times reported the discovery as “the beginning of a new era, leading eventually to the realization of harnessing the almost limitless energy of the sun for the uses of civilization.”"

:shrug:

[phantom power]

4. 4.4 -- I learn something new every day.

[Fledermaus]

13. How many people, do you think, understood what you wrote?

Who do you think your audience is here?

[NNadir]

14. There are some literate people here.

If you must know, I have had some fairly high level conversations in blogs, especially on another website where I write. I've had some such conversations here too, but mostly in the E&E forum these days, there's not too much serious going on. I do like to count the "world's largest" solar plant stuff. After six or seven years it gets even more hilarious, better than Buster Keaton.

But I'm going to 'fess up.

Sometimes I just park ideas here when I'm in libraries so I can access them simply when I get home. On any given day, I might access 20 or 30 papers, sometimes even more, and scan two thirds of them, and read several in detail. I'm often pressed for time, though, and so some of my comments here are sticky notes to myself.

On the other website, I write to clarify my ideas and sometimes I get back meaningful feedback and as always, I like to blow off steam.

Here or over there, if some gets something out of what I write, that's all the better. If the heads of turkeys explode because of what I write, that's also amusing and fun.

No one is compelled to read what I write though.

[jpak]

17. And when you are on the bus back home because you reject "car culture"

do you muse aloud?

:rofl:

[NNadir]

18. Well, I certainly don't giggle like someone having hallucinations, like say,

that Norway is about to shut down its oil fields because of its success on Utsira.

Many delusional yuppies who are unfamiliar with work are unware of this, but time spent on mass transit can be very valuable, giving one time to read, reflect and organize.

[Fledermaus]

28. Um...Everybody here is literate and the audience is the general public.

I would guess, you have failed to communicate with over 99% of the people here.

[NNadir]

23. And pursuant to the point, I was reminded today that I once wrote a diary on a political website

wherein I noted that I did not know the proof of my conjecture that 144 is the only fibonacci number other than one that is a perfect square.

A correspondent in that diary provided a link to the proof of that conjecture, if I recall correctly.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/12/203150/837/20/384408">My Eight Year Old and I Had a Chat Tonight.

[PVnRT]

19. It's also useful in waste treatment

Supercritical water oxidation reduces a lot of otherwise harmful organic pollutants into relatively benign salts that can be disposed of in a landfill. The problem is generating the water in the first place, which requires a lot of energy.

[NNadir]

20. Sometimes the oxidation is quite exothermic and self sustaining.

Supercritical water oxidation has been proposed as a source of energy using waste matrices.

In this case getting to the supercritical phase can be thought of as activation energy.

With recent advances in materials science, SCWO systems are becoming more and more accessible.

[PVnRT]

26. Well, we're building one here,

but this is a government contract, and we're getting rid of waste generated by neutralizing chemical weapons. We have a bit more money to play around with (although they still could cancel the SCW units, they've done it before, shortsightedly).

The self-sustaining nature of this type of process is great for operating costs - I think it is the capital costs (especially to build tanks that can withstand thousands of pounds of pressure) that keeps more companies from building them.

[phantom power]

27. dude, love your new handle.

[NNadir]

29. I think I read about that system somewhere. I also heard there was a lot of opposition.

Personally I think SWO is the best approach to this sort of problem though.

Basically when people hear certain words, they go ballistic. "Nerve gas" is one of them. What seems to be missing from the public understanding, predictably, is that this is a process for destruction. The alternative is keeping the stuff as it is for eternity, or attempting to do so.

Public ignorance is a pretty horrible thing.