So What Are We Progressives Going To Do About Plastic?

[kamqute]

A throwback to an excellent thread on energy..but I think the issue of plastic, particularly transparent/translucent/composite/fibrous/refractively controlled varieties, is really a lot harder to tackle, both in terms of technology and in terms of fighting the entrenched petroleum industry. I know of one site:

http://www.hempplastic.com/newSite/index.htm

anybody know any others?

Plastic is pervasive, and though I hate to admit it, it's done a lot of good. I think I could probably do without any plastic products (with the exception of plastic medical equipment, for which viable alternatives already exist), but our society sure as hell can't, and nobody really WANTS do, do they?

[Clarkie1]

1. What made me just think of "The Graduate?" n/t

[The Straight Story]

2. Plastic is not the problem

It is how we dispose of it without recylycing it that is the problem. Those milk jugs could be filled with water and sent to a 3rd world country, or recycled in other ways.

The problem is how we as the human race use it and reuse it, or don't.

Plastics can last for a long time - so we need to find a way to use them to benefit us instead of screwing us.

Once again, the problem is people and government and how we use tools, not the tools (IMHO).

[chicagojoe]

3. A psycho in the White House, massive budget deficits,

and we're sitting on the verge of a world war, and all you have to worry about is PLASTIC?!?!?!

[kamqute]

6. WTF?!

You think I live in some bunker going 'omigod PLASTIC is going to destroy us'? I do not need to ALWAYS be speaking about THE most important problem in the world. By the way, what is the MOST important problem in the world? You are the arbiter of that, correct? With respect to this 'war', plastic is indeed a major issue. I do not and have not claimed anywhere or anytime that it is the most important issue facing us. Breaking down your 'argument' logically, one is always at fault whenever not talking about the most important issues that face the human condition, or at least injects such discussion into a public forum. Have you ever posted something about something that maybe doesn't have to do with psychos, wars and deficits? I'm willing to bet you have..OH YEAH, LIKE THIS F*CKING POST! Besides, your concern with deficits seems incredibly selfish--why are budget deficits which primarily affect (yes, primarily; I KNOW we have a global economy, so don't bug me) the USA among the three most important problems facing the world? If China had such deficits, which would probably be worse for the world, would you care nearly as much? I think this is indicative of a nationalistic bias infecting certain segments of the progressive community. Don't get me wrong, I don't think you're part of it, I just think maybe you're couching your criticisms in a little bit too much of that language. Yes, I ramble, but you attacked my happy, nice little green, peaceful thread and now I am angry.

Edited to remove the extra 2 asterisks in F*CKING :)

[imenja]

8. each of us need to do our part

Recycle anyway. That's the least you can do. And try to conserve at home. Political responsibility begins with oneself.

[kamqute]

10. Of Course

Being a kid, I don't have as much responsibility for recycling as others on this forum, but I do as much as I can and I conserve.

[chicagojoe]

30. I always recycle. Over 25 years now.

At the moment of my post, it just didn't seem as important as other things going on in the world.

[kamqute]

31. I'm sorry too

I was quite wound up at the time :)

[chicagojoe]

9. Have A Nice Day!!!

[kamqute]

12. You too :)

[imenja]

4. I've given up

my battle against plastic at the grocery store. It's proved impossible. I've instead decided to use the bags around the house and recycle everything I can.

[kamqute]

11. Which battle against plastic?

You mean the grocery bags? Or the packaging? Or what?

[imenja]

15. both

I used to always insist on paper bags when I checked out. The baggers never ask anymore, so I had to always be vigilant to not only tell them, but keep them from putting stuff in plastic even after I had requested paper. Sometimes they would simply put the plastic bags inside the paper ones.

I also tried to avoid buying items packaged in plastic. That, however, has become absolutely impossible.

Plastic rules the earth. Your great grandchildren will be living in a sea of plastic milk bottles and used diapers. No one seems to care anymore.

[kamqute]

17. With regard to the plastic bags, it's very simple; use no bags

If you drive, take your cart to your car and stick the stuff in your car. Then unload at home. My mom does that and it takes about five extra minutes. If you walk, bring cloth bags. They're really very cheap. If you get too many groceries or other items AND you walk, I would suggest using a stroller or buying a shopping cart, or even a baby cart for a bike if you can afford it.

[imenja]

19. I can tell you don't do shopping yourself

stick the stuff in the car? carry items out one by one?
I use the bags for garbage in the house. That's the solution I've come up with. It saves me having to buy garbage bags.

[kamqute]

21. I watch my mom do it every week and it works fine

I don't mean into the store, grab something, into the car, back to the store, etc.

I mean cart to the car, unload, cart to the store, you to the car, leave

[coffeenap]

22. Yes, I really do it every time. (mamaKamqute)

The stores know me because I am the only one. When I explain how I do it, people say, oh, that's a great idea. What I do is put everything back in the cart, take it out and put it all in the car trunk. When I get home I bring 4 or 5 things at a time directly into the house and put them right where they go. No bags. It really isn't a big deal. The idea came to me on Earth Day 2 years ago.I timed it--it takes 5 to 7 extra minutes. Now, I AM lucky enough to have a garage connected to my house. If I had a 1/4 mile walk from my car to the house, I'd use my cloth bags--assuming I remember to take them with me.

[imenja]

26. why don't you help her?

[kamqute]

29. I do! :)

[Zenlitened]

28. Or use canvas bags.

They're often available for purchase right at the grocery store. A one-time investment that will solve the paper-or-plastic debate once and for all. :)

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. Plastics comprise only a tiny fraction of our petrochemical

use. If we could ween ourselves from the internal combustion engine it would leave us enough oil reserves to last for thousands of years. Not to mention that one day we will undoubtedly come up with ways to recycle plastics by reducing them to their original petroleum state, and plastic mining in the world's landfills will be a major industry.

I think the problems with plastics will resolve themselves, if we don't run out of oil feeding our SUVs first.

[kamqute]

7. I completely agree

I just mean that from a tech perspective, it's harder to eliminate oil from those sectors. In the tech world, just thinking about valid alternatives and such, petroleum is dead. Biodiesel and solar themselves would work fine, but with the addition of pneumatics, hybrids, and the connection to central electricity provided by hydrogen cells makes the whole thing easy. But I think that's a great discussion to have too, and more urgent in policy circles.

[Zhade]

13. I think your own link is the answer.

NT!

[Dr Fate]

14. How 'bout we recycle it & re-use it?

That would be a good start!

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. Plastics created from orange peel - no kidding

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4191737.stm

20 January, 2005

US scientists have discovered a way to make plastics from orange peel, using the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide.

Cornell University researchers created a novel polymer using CO2, an oil present in orange peel and a catalyst that speeds the reaction along.

The team hopes CO2 could one day be collected for making plastics instead of being pumped into the atmosphere.

Details of the research in the Journal of the American Chemical Society.

more...

[kamqute]

18. SWEET!!

btw how did you find that?

And do you know where the actual study is published?

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. I saw it the other day

and you're thread reminded me of it.

I check the BBC Science section on a regular basis.

[EVDebs]

24. Hey ! I just posted this too ! Word travels fast....

[EVDebs]

23. I heard there's an orange peel compound scientists have come up with to

replace plastic wrap..."Plastics created from orange peel"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4191737.stm

I also believe your hints about hemp are apropriate for this kind of thing too ! Don't tell Bush, he'll phreak.

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. That's why this peak oil thing

is another pseudo crisis. There are plenty of other fuel sources, it's just some are better than others. If we had an energy race, like the space race we had in the 60's, I'm sure we could come up with all sorts of solutions.

BTW, hemp should be one our biggest crops just because there are so many good uses for it.

[Strelnikov_]

32. The Initial Damage Caused By Peak Oil Will Be To Our Economic System

long before any deep energy shortfalls occur. And the economic impact will be primarily due to the energy, not raw material, component of oil in industrial economies. Only 10% of oil consumed in the United States is used for nonfuel uses (solvents, lubricating oils, petroleum wax, petroleum jelly, asphalt used to pave roads, petroleum coke, and petroleum feedstocks used as chemical feedstock).

Petroleum today has an EROEI (energy returned for energy invested) of 8 to 20 (say 10 on average today, historically in the 40’s or better). The problem as I see it is that all of the alternate energy sources seem to have EROEI’s in the 1.5 to 4.5 range, so we have to come up with a 4% to 13% increase in utilization to replace every 2% decrease in oil supply. We will have to work hard just to replace energy lost due to petroleum depletion. I feel that energy supply will, at best, flatline once peak oil is reached, and political economies that depend on perpetual growth will falter and possibly fail. Basically, it will be back to the seventies, without the possibility of the North Sea, Nigerian, Mexican and Venezuelan oil fields coming on line in the near future.

I used to think like you did, that technology would come to the rescue. That was until I learned more about the one-time energy bounty petroleum provided, and the exponential growth in energy supplies modern growth centric industrial economies depend upon (US 1950: 35.5 Qbtu, 2003: 70.5 Qbtu, average 1.3%/year since 1950).

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0102.html

[zulchzulu]

27. Recycle it

That's what I do.

[Strelnikov_]

33. Recycle It

Oil up the tailpipe is gone.

Oil in a milk jug may, with an energy and additional raw material input, be made into a new product.

The energy needed to manufacture and distribute the plastic product, not the raw feedstock, will be the controlling cost factor, in my opinion.

[kamqute]

34. Here is a good example of the type of problems with making green plastic

http://allafrica.com/stories/200501200730.html

This kind of thing is harder to phase petrochemical crap out of. I am, however, very encouraged by Baxter's ability to eliminate DEHP from IV equipment. Yay!

By the way, I'm not scared of Peak Oil. Global Warming will have wiped us all off the face of the earth by the time it gets really bad.

:)

[seasat]

35. Vegetable oil and starches can be used to make plastics

LINK