If You Drink Wine, You're Killing The Environment!

[BearClaws]

For about ten years I lived on a 400 acre cattle ranch in northern California.
During my stay, the property teemed with wildlife.
I was able to see herds of Blacktail deer, numerous Coyote, Fox, Bobcats,Golden Eagles, wild Turkeys and even mountain lions on two different occasions.
Near the end of my stay, the property changed hands.
The new owners switched the property from a cattle operation to a grape growing vineyard.
In came the Mexican workers, who shot all the deer (does and fawns included) They then dozed the entire place, erected eight foot high deer proof fencing and planted grapes.
The once thriving ecosystem is now completely sterile.
ZERO WILDLIFE.
This is the way ALL grape growing operations work in the Napa Valley region of northern California.
I know that cattle operations and hunters get a real bad rap from environmental groups, but they are absolutely benign compared to the giant wine growing operations in Northern California!
I've seen it with my own tear filled eyes.

[BR_Parkway]

1. There are a number of eco friendly wines and vineyards out there, please

don't paint us all with a broad brush.

[lonestarnot]

2. It's not vineyards that are causing a clearing of rainforests but ag and

cattle industry.

[BearClaws]

5. I politely disagree !

Yes there may be a few nature friendly vineyards out there, but I have spent the last 44 years of my life in the Napa Valley region.
The deer fencing looks like concentration camps in Nazi Germany.
The large expanses of green vineyards is very pleasing to the eye of the tourist, but if you walk through the enclosure, the only wildlife you will see is the occasional jackrabbit that slipped through the fence.
Yes cattle ranching has a somewhat detrimental effect on the environment, but there are MANY species that can coexist on the ranch with the cattle.
For the most part, Vineyards are comparable to strip mining or extreme logging.
Not to mention the huge amount of chemicals they dump into the ground water.
It makes me sick.

[da_chimperor]

10. Grape production is just like many other agricultural activities

It can be done in a way that's harmful to the environment, or it can be done in harmony with the environment. I'd say it's no better or worse that a number of other agricultural industries. Why not single out pig farms instead? The huge amount of pig manure that gets into the Mississippi has resulted in a massive dead-zone in the gulf of Mexico. Sure, there are problems with how things are going now but that doesn't mean it will always be like that. Work is being done, here's an older article you might be interested in.

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=0EAFEC5E002F604C&p_docnum=1&s_dlid=DL0105021514292805712&s_subterm=Subscription%20until%3A%2012%2F31%2F2010%2011%3A59%20PM&s_subexpires=12%2F31%2F2010%2011%3A59%20PM&s_username=santarosa">Link

Rather than demonizing the industry, why not articulate precisely what you think the problems are, and what can be done to fix them? Hmmm?

[NickB79]

16. And that has what to do with his point?

Yes, indiscriminate clearing of the rainforests has been done primarily in the tropics by ag and cattle industries. That has very little to do with sustainable, well-regulated grazing in the continental US.

[demnan]

3. Big is the key word here

I've seen plenty of small vineyards and wineries in Virginia that don't destroy the environment and make limited amounts of very good wine.

[AZCat]

4. I guess you've never been near a large feedlot

Then you might not be so quick to use the word "benign" to describe cattle operations.

[BearClaws]

6. wrong

A feedlot is not a cattle ranch.

[AZCat]

7. But a feedlot is "cattle operations"

Perhaps we need to define exactly what we are discussing here - are you arguing that the totality of wine operations are more damaging to the environment than cattle operations? Because otherwise we are comparing apples and oranges.

I could use some clarification please.

[BearClaws]

9. Yes I Am

On Cattle ranches throughout the west, the ranchers contain the cattle with barbed wire fences about four feet high.
Deer and Elk easily jump these Pronghorn Antelope can slither under(yes a few animals will get tangled and perish) coyotes, rabbits, badgers, fox and other small animals also easily get under the fences.
Sure the native grasses get grazed off by cattle, but there is usually enough forage for the browsers to make a living.
A deer proof vineyard fence is impenetrable to virtually all wildlife and prior to the erection of this barrier all wildlife is removed (shot, trapped ,poisoned etc.) Never to inhabit the land ever again.
A vineyard manager was recently prosecuted by the department of Fish and Game for killing 39 deer while making way for a "Beautiful Vineyard" He wouldn't have been busted if he had applied for the proper depredation permits. (barf)

[AZCat]

11. I'd love to see a source for your deer kill claim

The problem is that the "wise use" movement has had a great deal of success with spreading false or misleading stories about certain issues. I have grown skeptical of any tale that doesn't have a hard reference. If you could provide some documentation it would put my fears to rest.

Back to the issue at hand - I am worried that you have such a narrow view of environmental damage. Have you not considered the other effects of a particular use of land? What about runoff or energy used or biological contamination? Do these not figure in your calculation?

Native grasses being overgrazed is a serious issue, for more reasons than a lack of forage. Here in southern Arizona we have suffered from a century of public lands ranching and I have seen the damage first-hand.

[BearClaws]

12. I Don't

The TRUTH is that MANY species can co exist with cattle on a large, sometimes huge tract of land.
NO it is not perfect,and it would be better without the cattle.
In virtually ALL vineyards the property is completely sterile.
NO WILDLIFE!!!!!!!!
EVER!
What irritates me most is that because the vineyards are aesthetically pleasing to the eye, and are such a boon to the economy, they get away scott free!
I'm not going to try to research a link for you.
All I can say is that I have seen this (DE Evolution) over a period of 40 + years.
Enormous tracts of wildlife habitat destroyed.
It is a cover up of huge proportion.

[XemaSab]

17. Cattle and grazing

In California, most grasses are introduced, non-native species. Cattle grazing can keep down these invasive species and allow native plants to flourish. Cattle grazing can be bad, but it can also accomplish many positive land use objectives.

[mistertrickster]

8. Well . . . breathing air hurts the environment . . . we use the O2 and

exhale CO2. So stop jogging.

That 400 acres that is now in vineyards might not have deer and fox on it anymore, but I live in Kansas, and we've got millions of deer that we'll loan you whenever you want them.

I think the only thing that will really make much of a difference is set aside park land--everything else is going to get exploited by humans one way or the other.

And since Bush wants to exploit public park land, the need for private conservation plans is even more pressing.

I don't see switching from grape-growing to cattle ranching as much of an improvement, one way or the other. Sorry.

[Deb]

13. What a shame

We don't see deer or wild turkey in larger orchards/vineyards here but they do share grazing pastures along the woods. I honestly thought it had to do with protective ground cover and preferred food sources.

It's a local joke that turkeys spend the winter scratchin' (eating) cow shit so some "out-of-towner" can pay to bag and eat him during hunting season. :-)

[hunter]

14. Wildlife adapted to western style cattle ranching

The environment in California (and much of the west) is very much changed from what it was before Europeans brought cattle here. Native California grasses did not survive except in rare places; they were replaced by European and Asian grasses that have been co-evolving with cattle for thousands of years.

Some native wildlife adapted very well to cattle ranching, and that's what we see today as California's "natural" environment.

California has its share of feedlot style cattle and dairy operations, mostly in the California's central valley, but those are not the kinds of places that are cleared for vineyards. Most large scale commercial vineyards are very sterile places surrounded by deer fencing, and are not at all comparable to the cattle ranches they replace.

In my own experience, many of the "wild" places I knew as a kid have been replaced by suburbs. Some of these wild places were put aside as parklands, but these parks are heavily used and abused by the increased human population.

[Kolesar]

15. hunters *don't* get a real bad rap from environmental groups

The environmental groups I work with include hunters. As for cattle, I quit that sort of food a decade ago. Tonight I am going to probably have a Reisling with my veggie burger. Bon appetit'.

[amazona]

18. if you eat any fruit or vegetable you're killing the environment

Ever seen a soybean field? It makes a vinyard look like a walk in the park.

Cattle present their problems but at least they can partly share the environment with others. Some crops are just pure agricultural desert. Don't know what the answer is, as people must eat food and drink liquid.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Kolesar]

19. I know what the answer is

Live simply so that others may live. Vegetarian diets are much more environmentally friendly than meat diets. It takes a huge amount of fuel, water, and land to support the meat industry in America. Most of the cornfields in this country are used to produce feed for livestock.

[ChemEng]

20. Why not reduce the population instead?

A U.S. with a population of 100 million would reduce the impact on the land much more than having 300 million switch to a vegan diet.

[Kolesar]

21. You are probably pretty close on the impact of omnivore humans

I would expect 300 million vegetarians have about the same impact as 100 million omnivores. As for population reduction, I am not having any children, so I am doing my part on that account, too.

[ChemEng]

24. It is more than just agriculture impacts,

but also other land uses (roads, homes, factories) and energy use.

[GumboYaYa]

23. Permaculture is the answer, but it requires a fundamental

shift in the agricultural industry to acheive that.

[kineneb]

22. We are in a NorCal wine region

and yes, the vineyards do kill off the wildlife. Just heard comments on it at the Rotary meeting today. The poisons used to kill the rodents also poison the raptors. Then there are the fences, etc. Local Audubon Soc. isn't fond of what the vineyards do to the songbird population either.