Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Careless science costs lives

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 09:54 AM
Original message
Careless science costs lives
n science, as in much of life, it is believed that you get what you pay for. According to opinion polls, people do not trust scientists who work for industry because they only care about profits, or government scientists because they suspect them of trying to cover up the truth. Scientists who work for environmental NGOs are more highly regarded. Because they are trying to save the planet, people are ready to believe that what they say must be true. A House of Lords report, Science and Society, published in 2000, agreed that motives matter. It argued that science and scientists are not value-free, and therefore that scientists would command more trust "if they openly declare the values that underpin their work".

It all sounds very plausible, but mostly it is wrong. Scientists with the best of motives can produce bad science, just as scientists whose motives may be considered suspect can produce good science. An obvious example of the first was Rachel Carson, who, if not the patron saint, was at least the founding mother of modern environmentalism. Her book The Silent Spring was an inspiring account of the damage caused to our natural environment by the reckless spraying of pesticides, especially DDT.

However, Carson also claimed that DDT caused cancer and liver damage, claims for which there is no evidence but which led to an effective worldwide ban on the use of DDT that is proving disastrous. Her motives were pure; the science was wrong. DDT is the most effective agent ever invented for preventing insect-borne disease, which, according to the US National Academy of Sciences and the WHO, prevented over 50 million human deaths from malaria in about two decades. Although there is no evidence that DDT harms human health, some NGOs still demand a worldwide ban for that reason. Careless science cost lives.

{..}

Motives are not irrelevant, and unselfish motives are rightly admired more than selfish ones. There are numerous examples of misconduct by big companies, and we should examine their claims critically and provide effective regulation to control abuses of power and ensure the safety of their products. Equally, we should not uncritically accept the claims of those who act from idealistic motives. NGOs inspired by the noble cause of protecting our environment often become careless about evidence and exaggerate risks to attract attention (and funds). Although every leading scientific academy has concluded that GM crops are at least as safe as conventional foods, this does not stop Greenpeace reiterating claims about the dangers of "Frankenfoods". Stephen Schneider, a climatologist, publicly justified distortion of evidence: "Because we are not just scientists but human beings as well ... we need to ... capture the public imagination ... So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we have."

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,9865,1417388,00.html

WRT the DDT ban, I suspect racism played a major role. Malaria is only a real threat to black and brown people in the developing world. I doubt the ban would have had much support if white Californians were getting malaria in numbers that black Africans are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. What about what DDT did to eagles?
http://www.indiana.edu/~bradwood/eagles/ddt2.htm

DDT and other toxins have created several lethal problems for Bald Eagles. The most devastating result was a thinning of the eggshells. The shells would become so thin that they would break when the parents sat on them to keep them warm. The control of the use of DDT has played a major role in the on-going recovery of the Bald Eagle.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Eggshell story was debunked ages ago
Edited on Fri Feb-18-05 11:06 AM by TO Kid
Cecil, HC et al. 1971. Poultry Science 50: 656-659 (No effects of DDT or DDE, if adequate calcium is in diet); Chang, ES & ELR Stokstad. 1975. Poultry Science 54: 3-10 1975. (No effects of DDT on shells); Edwards, JG. 1971. Chem Eng News p. 6 & 59 (August 16, 1971) (Summary of egg shell- thinning and refutations presented revealing all data); Hazeltine, WE. 1974. Statement and affidavit, EPA Hearings on Tussock Moth Control, Portland Oregon, p. 9 (January 14, 1974); Jeffries, DJ. 1969. J Wildlife Management 32: 441-456 (Shells 7 percent thicker after two years on DDT diet); Robson, WA et al. 1976. Poultry Science 55:2222- 2227; Scott, ML et al. 1975. Poultry Science 54: 350-368 (Egg production, hatchability and shell quality depend on calcium, and are not effected by DDT and its metabolites); Spears, G & P. Waibel. 1972. Minn. Science 28(3):4-5; Tucker, RK & HA Haegele. 1970. Bull Environ Contam. Toxicol 5:191-194 (Neither egg weight nor shell thickness affected by 300 parts per million DDT in daily diet);Edwards, JG. 1973. Statement and affidavit, U.S. Senate Committee on Agriculture, 24 pages, October 24, 1973; Poult Sci 1979 Nov;58(6):1432-49 ("There was no correlation between concentrations of pesticides and egg shell thinning].")

More at http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm#ref6


Bald eagles were reportedly threatened with extinction in 1921 -- 25 years before widespread use of DDT. (Van Name, WG. 1921. Ecology 2:76)

Alaska paid over $100,000 in bounties for 115,000 bald eagles between 1917 and 1942. (Anon. Science News Letter, July 3, 1943)

The bald eagle had vanished from New England by 1937. (Bent, AC. 1937. Raptorial Birds of America. US National Museum Bull 167:321-349)

After 15 years of heavy and widespread usage of DDT, Audubon Society ornithologists counted 25 percent more eagles per observer in 1960 than during the pre-DDT 1941 bird census.

http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm#ref7

Edit: Durn brackets interpreted as html. Agin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Your Site is NOT the general Conscience of Experts in the field:
Just a causal Yahoo search I came up with citation not only saying DDT caused Egg Shell Thinning but explaining the Mechanism HOW DDT did the egg shell thinning (Through you do have to get through a lot of citation to JunkScience.com and its claims).

http://www.environmentalreview.org/vol01/anderson.html
http://www.math.sfu.ca/~cschwarz/Stat-301/Handouts/node30.html
http://faculty.plattsburgh.edu/robert.fuller/370%20Files/Weeks14Soil%20Pollution/DDT.htm
http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/AVECOL/RohwerCollecting.html
http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/ESSD/essdext.nsf/PrintFriendly/87823E1B7BC4D6DB85256BD6007306AC
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Citing Steve Milloy of FOX news
Edited on Fri Feb-18-05 11:34 AM by Viking12
Isn't going to win you a great deal of credibility.

"Unsuspecting visitors might think that Milloy’s site is devoted to criticizing shoddy science, but they would be wrong. If you look at what he “debunks” you will find that the real criterion for deciding what is “junk science” is not the quality of the work, but the political agenda that it might support. Studies that support a right-wing agenda are endorsed, while studies that don’t are harshly criticized... Milloy almost admits it in his definition of junk science:

“Junk science” is bad science used to further a special agenda, such as personal injury lawyers extorting deep-pocket businesses; the “food police,” environmental Chicken Littles and gun-control extremists advocating wacky social programs; overzealous regulators expanding bureaucratic power/budgets; cut-throat businesses attacking competitors; unethical businesses making bogus product claims; slick politicians; and wannabe scientists seeking fame and fortune.

He no longer uses this definition (too much of a give away?) but archive.org has preserved a copy.
http://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/cgi-bin/blog/2004/02#milloy


or here:

http://www.prwatch.org/node/1478
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. So what about Audubon et al?
Just as a "racist" is someone winning an argument with a liberal, it seems that a "corporatist" is someone winning an argument with a green. Interesting that you attempt to discredit Malloy but don't address the findings of the Audubon Society or any of the other sources he cites. The fact is that there is NO credible evidence that the eggshell thinning was caused by DDT and NO credible evidence that DDT was a threat to birds of prey. Audubon specifically mentioned that the bald eagle population rose while DDT was in use- does that mean they were not bird-lovers at all, but merely tools of the chemical industry?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I don't read Milloy. I don't need to -- he's disqualified himself
Milloy is a RW hack. A well documented LIAR. He has disqualified himself from deserving my time. That you defend him here says a lot about you. Why are you on a progressive website?


That the eagle population rose while DDT was in use doesn't necessarily mean that DDT is harmless. Habitat restoration and other factors played a role as well. That people accept such simplistic, fallacious reasoning reveals much about there intellectual capacity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. So you can refute something you refuse to read?
Jeez, and I though the far-right fundies had closed minds. They've got nothing on you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Yep. I don't need to waste my time with Milloy
Edited on Fri Feb-18-05 03:02 PM by Viking12
At some point, it must be necessary to abandon the case-by-case approach and adopt a summary judgement about people like Milloy. Nothing they say can be trusted. Even if you can check their factual claims (by no means always the case) it’s a safe bet that they’ve failed to mention relevant information that would undermine their case. If you search a little, you'll find rousing refutations of Milloy's garbage.

If you want to have an honest discussion of environmental issues, feel free to introduce one. If you're just interested in defending the PR industry by equating me w/ fundies, I won't waste my time.
I don't need to listen to irrational people like you and Milloy. C ya.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Bollocks. How about these sources??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. First of all, Scheneider did NOT "publicly justify distortion
Edited on Fri Feb-18-05 11:25 AM by Viking12
The quote which your provide is a highly truncated quote taken out of context. Schneider was discussing the problems at the interface of journalism and science. He was pointing out the incompatibility and the dilemma it creates.

Here's what Schneider really said (previously omitted sections in bold):

"On the one hand, as scientists we are ethically bound to the scientific method, in effect promising to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but - which means that we must include all the doubts, the caveats, the ifs, ands, and buts. On the other hand, we
are not just scientists but human beings as well. And like most people we'd like to see the world a better place, which in this context translates into our working to reduce the risk of potentially disastrous climatic change. To do that we need to get some broadbased support, to capture the public's imagination. That, of course, entails getting loads of media coverage.
So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have. This 'double ethical bind' we frequently find ourselves in cannot be solved by any formula. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest. I hope that means being both."
Interview w/ J. Schell, Discover, pp. 45-48, Oct. 1989.


Second, like the misrepresentation of Scneider, the DDT ban myth is equally distorted by the RW think tanks (and Michael Crichton).


See http://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/cgi-bin/blog/2005/02#ddt3

And http://info-pollution.com/ddtban.htm


on edit: fixed code
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Reading the full paragraph,
I have to agree with the original assessment. You see that tension a lot in climatologists, nutritionists and scientists whose ideas might affect public policy (and cosmologists for some reason) all the time. I know they mean well -- trying to be more effective than honest -- but in the long run it leads to a boy-who-cried-wolf syndrome.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. For example? Specifically with climatologists? n/t
I think you may be confusing the scientist's words with the media report of the scientist's words.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Sorry, I don't have links
but as their models have been refined, their predictions have changed. This is entirely appropriate for science, but causes trouble in the public sphere.

If you are pointing out the media's tendency to sensationalize, I agree completely. But the paragraph quoted shows a scientist trying to play that game for a greater good, not just the media's reporting. But media people play that game better: "20 years ago scientists were saying global warming would raise sea levels by 3 meters, now it's just 1.5...what'll they say next?"

Spelling out the uncertainties is a tougher sell than going for the emotional response of the worst-case scenarios, but when the bad scenarios become incresingly more certain, at least they still have their credibility.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. No ,the paragraph shown shows the trouble with
the media's tendency to sensationalize. That you can't provide any specific examples of climate scientists using scare tactics and that you turn back again to the media pretty well illustrates the point I'm trying to make. Scientists do take the resposibilities to be "effective and honest" seriously.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. The DDT argument is stupid.
Using DDT is a one-shot short-term solution. Just like antibiotics, careless use of the substance will result in resistant bugs.

My own experience backs this up. I do not use any sort of insecticides in my house or on my land. As a result I have a great diversity of insect life, and it's very rare I see any sort of insect pests. I like to say the spiders, salamanders, lizards, and mosquito fish eat the pests. (I've counted more than twenty kinds of spiders in my yard.)

My neighbors, who have a monthly contract with the pest control people are left with pesticide resistant insects -- mostly ants, cockroaches, fleas, and flies. Once you start using insecticides it's a vicious circle.

DDT is not as harmless as you suggest. Chicken studies which are commonly cited by DDT proponents are not good models for wild birds like Brown Pelicans.

It is very clear that something was damaging Pelican reproduction on the west coast of the United States, and DDT and other similar pesticides are still very much the primary suspect.

If you are not terribly concerned about pelicans, then the amount of pesticide residues that end up in human breast milk might still alarm you. Levels of pesticide residues in human breast milk are quite astonishing, and the short term effects of these toxins may be quite subtle. The long term effects may be very severe. We don't know.

I do have some concerns about GM foods, but I don't think they will cause as much damage as pesticides have. Unfortunately most GM foods are used in conjunction with a very narrow range of pesticides and herbicides...

In any case, nature will quickly adapt to GM foods, and people who live in poverty will simply "steal" "patented" genes if they find them useful. Widespread patent enforcement such as we have in the United States or Canada will not be possible. It is also very likely that that GM foods will not prove to be as robust as non-GM foods for long term use.

Human populations will be placed in grave danger if GM foods replace non-GM foods under economic conditions that fail to support the agricultural environment the GM foods are designed for. "Heirloom" agricultural varieties have been selected over the ages to grow under a very wide range of economic and environmental conditions, but GM foods have not.

GM foods and pesticides are not the "magic bullet" you suggest. Furthermore it is not "White Californians" vs. "Black Africans," it is wealthy vs. poor. People who are poor will reach for the quick and easy solution, and ignore the long term effects. The long term effects do not matter to people if they don't think it likely they will survive long enough for it to matter. Wealthy people have the leisure of thinking about the long term effects of pesticides and GM foods.

What bothers me most is that we take our wealth for granted. I don't think there are any guarentees that the economy of the United States will maintain our current standard of living. We may very well see a collapse of our economy that brings us face-to-face with those diseases like malaria we see in "developing" countries. If this happens I'm certain that we will turn to "magic solutions" like DDT and GM. This will have devestating consequence on our environment, and in the long term more people will die as a result of this short-term thinking than die from from the first symptoms of a collapsing economy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. This is an excellent post.
If every once in a while I didn't get to read something like this, I would lose all hope.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. "...Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane (DDT) is reasonably ...
anticipated to be a human carcinogen ..."

http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/eleventh/profiles/s064ddt.pdf
(Biennial) Report on Carcinogens, 11th Edition (2003)

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/admin/rocredir.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Jan 14th 2025, 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC