Deliberate Poverty

[bhikkhu]

The sober predictions of science seem to indicate we are past the tipping point, and in spite of all the evidence accumulated, nothing is done. I think the failure of governmental entities to act rationally is one that we will see repeated over and over as years go by and conditions deteriorate, and I think the problem is that we are looking in the wrong place for solutions. Governments as they are represent the money and interests of industrialism, in all its forms. Industrialism itself is at the core of the problem, and its no mystery why it cannot “solve” itself.

The one solution that I can see is the simplest. Its fairly inevitable anyway, an aspect of our trajectory toward energy depletion, and has historically been a refuge in troubled times: deliberate poverty. We are accustomed to think of poverty as an indication of failure, lack of capacity or education, and as a detestable thing to be used to scare our children into studying with, a shameful thing to hide at all costs if it settled upon our households...

But inherently, it solves so many problems. It reduces energy consumption immediately: wealth and energy consumption correlate almost perfectly with only a few variations in efficiency. CO2 output unfailingly follows energy consumption. Consumption itself involves the redistribution of an individual's wealth to support all the products and endeavors of future industrialism. Wealth stored becomes the capital guaranteeing more wealth and capital, leading to more industrialism and wealth. An individual earning only what is needed, spending only what supports a modest life, hoarding nothing, has a minimal or negative impact upon industrialism.

One of the greatest misallocations of resources in human history (to differ from Kuntstler) is the US military. During the Bush years I was without a job for a time, and ended up with one paying significantly less. My consolation was that I no longer made enough to pay for his pointless wars. Its still a consolation, and as I watch the government both expand our war footing and fail to do anything useful on climate change, its apparent that failure is to be expected. Nothing can be expected from national governments dedicated to the economic growth at the heart of the problem, and to live in deliberate poverty is to remove oneself from the funding apparatus, to exist outside of the machinery in a position of perspective rather than involvement.

If, one at a time, people can make a difference, this is part of what I think it will look like: choosing deliberate poverty, cars are parked and not driven, and people walk and bicycle more. Not hoarding wealth and material objects, economic activity slows and limits to what is useful and local. The mountain of plastic crap shipped around the planet suddenly appears as a mountain of plastic crap, to newly opened eyes. When poverty is a choice made in the best interests of one's society and the planet as a whole, it is an indication of personal initiative, strength and sacrifice, and all those psychological things that drive people to drink and smoke are relieved. As physical demands are made upon the body, health is more important and expensive addictions are easier to be freed from, breaking one more bond of industrialism. The ceaseless activity pursuing wealth and its trappings begins to look like the thing that is destroying our families and our planet, while simplicity is something to relax into. Shopping as close to home and eating as close to the land as possible means using local produce and stores before those of strangers, and producing oneself what can be made at home...

Those are the thoughts of the week, watching all the bad news lately. The writing is a little weak and disorganized, but it is something to think about. To some extent, I don't see that there is really any choice in the matter in the medium-term. I tell my kids “smart people find ways to enjoy the things they have to do”, so I look at it as finding a way to stride through the future with a good attitude.

[cliffordu]

1. K&R. Looking at it from outside the consumer culture

can be really educational.....when, as you describe - it's on a voluntary basis...

I was forced into poverty for years, and not having the choice to get out from under is devastating.

[ananda]

2. Deliberate poverty..

.. I like it.

It sounds positively marxist or communist.

And that would be a good thing compared
to what we have now.

[bhikkhu]

5. I keep hearing how something is leftist, or liberal, or conservative, etc

I like to think that there is a real world which goes on independent of those terms, and they have very little meaning to me. Most of the arguments I hear are completely beside the point, like the old Akkadians arguing over which god to sacrifice to as their fields dried up and their people starved.

As Voltaire said: "People argue, Nature acts".

[TxRider]

25. We are already doing it

Global trade is deliberate poverty for the west.

Wealth transfer to India and China for example, is deliberate poverty.

China and India are already beginning to transfer wealth elsewhere like Africa and South America.

The western world is lifting the third world like China and India out of poverty and into the first world at the direct cost to our economy and our society (cost to our jobs and wages).

Once the living standards which are rising at a rapid pace in China and India for example reach close to ours, the next places in line will be Africa and S. America as China, India and the west bring the standards of living of those places out of poverty.

[potisok]

3. Agree

I haven't bought the government a bullet, let alone a bomb for years, by choice, there is no shame in choosing to be of meager means, most are taught its a bad thing to be poor, they have not tried it.

[eilen]

4. This is an idea I have been thinking of a great deal

I have already gone to part time work. I figure if I have to work until I die, I may as well enjoy my life and do what suits me. Having the time and energy to do it is important to me.

I have thought about how to utilize this idea in a manner that can also protect people from abject homelessness. My thought was to form a corporation of a collective of families. Living closer to land, agrarian or craftspeople (pre industrial) --could be a direct economy within itself. The non-profit corporate structure would give a representative from each family a place on the board (much like coops are run) but also provide cover/protection to its members. I haven't figured it all out yet but I think it is an alternative to going it alone and allowing the "invisible hand" pick us off one by one. Each family's income may be at or below poverty line but will not cause them to suffer what we consider the vagaries of poverty.

[juno jones]

13. I've discussed that with friends as well.

Pooling resources like appliances (such as washers, etc), work, cars, buying power and even a few luxuries (hot tub anyone?) makes sense. Simply eliminating redundancy while still providing decent amounts of personal space seems doable.

I've always loved this pic:

[Gregorian]

6. "Not doing."

The solution to our situation isn't "doing". We cannot engineer our way out of this, any more than we could engineer nature to support our unnatural lifestyles. The answer is "not doing". Not taking that trip around the world. Not having children.

The bottom line is there are too many people taking too much from a finite source.

I tried to not be a hypocrite. I commuted by bike. I didn't have children. I was frugal. By a disappointing series of accidents I made money. I lived in a tiny 19th century cabin in forest with a wood stove. As the hoards invaded the rural areas, I moved. And consequently I made money. Unhappily, I made money. I ended up at my present location which is nothing but trees. I live in a trailer I found on Craigslist. My money sat in the banks. And one by one I got letters from the FDIC, until one day I decided to take my money out and build a real house, which I'm doing. Damnit, it's not what I want to do. I'm doing it without wood. But steel still takes energy, and the act of building is far worse than I had ever realized. Now I do tractor work, and tractor repairs, and tree removal, and grading, and concrete work, and it never ends. All I wanted to say was that I got my first real power bill this week. 38 cents per kwh for half the month, just to have a tiny space heater on. I want my wood stove back. Wood stoves are illegal in most, if not all, of California. And millions of people can't burn wood or we'd have a hell of a mess.

There is only so much we can "not do", and still live lives of even the littlest comforts. In fact, we are now so totally dependent upon the corporations to do what we stopped doing (because it was a shitload of work), that now we cannot help but keep the machine going.

I once owned a farm. One day an old woman came by with all of the pictures and stories about this farm. Even the Fedex driver had stories about when his grandfather would take him to this place to get food. They had fish and fruit and butter that they made.

There is a scenario whereby people can live off the land. And it is a very rare situation. And it's still an unacceptable way of living, if you factor in things like dental care, as one example.

I see answers, but I don't see an answer.

[Warpy]

7. I think my poverty is deliberate these days

although I realize my continuing frugality is imposed by my lack of access to health insurance. I've had to pay for hospitalization and even surgery out of my own pocket for a very long time.

Also, I've gotten quite used to my thrift shop lifestyle, although I'm more likely to contribute these days than take away.

[pansypoo53219]

8. estate sales are awesome.

recycling on a major level. tho, a lot of crap too.
but charities get a lot of the remains as well.

[Warpy]

9. I've always found them unbearably sad

The remains of an entire lifetime to be picked over by disinterested strangers.

All of mine is going to charity, period.

[babydollhead]

24. when I die, I hope everyone goes to town with the stuff of my life

at estate sales I too, am humbled with how it all shakes down to tea towels and screws and bolts and white gloves and recipes. we can't take a thing with us. just the love. that's what we leave too.

[G_j]

10. good thoughts

:thumbsup:

[jwirr]

11. I like this idea and have said that oil depletion will solve as many

problems as it causes. Having said that I also need to say - I have been homeless, hungry, cold and ill. There is only so poor I ever want to be.

To avoid the above I live with my daughter, plant a garden, conserve heating & cooking energy and am desperately hoping that Medicare is not destroyed by either the repugs or the Democrats.

[XemaSab]

12. I'm not a fan of poverty

I think it's a scheme to get people accustomed to the sorts of conditions that would have spawned open revolution a century ago.

As a wise man once said, "We've replaced the economic system that defeated communism with the economic system that SPAWNED communism." :P

[bhikkhu]

21. Perhaps another word would do

many people consider poverty to be a helpless condition imposed on an individual by external forces, injustice and so forth. If you look at the world today, it is perhaps more the rational choice of the wise man, who wishes to take at least one beneficial step into a plausible future.

I never got the fascination of communism, maybe I was born a few years too late. In any case, I've read that Marx never envisioned it as a workable solution for a non-industrial world, and it failed badly enough there. In my book, its one of many old ideologies that are way past being relevant anymore.

[FedUpWithIt All]

14. We recently sold and gave away a large portion of our possessions

and moved to a more rural area where we have purchased 50 acres of inexpensive, very raw land. We have started construction on a small straw bale cottage/shed. In the spring we plan to do some clearing and digging (for a future root cellar and earth berm greenhouse/coop) and continue building.

In the meantime we have moved into a small 2 bedroom over a garage. We no longer use a washer and dryer when we can help it. There are frozen washcloths on the porch as we speak. We have moved to a life with a computer, a tv and dvd player, a stove, a fridge, alarm clock and electric lights and heater as our only electronics. No more crockpot, toaster, straightener...We will eventually more away from electric for heating and cooking. Right now we only run heat in two rooms. We charge our cell in the car and limit our non-work travel.

We have one pre-pay credit card and have avoided banks for years. We bought our car used and paid it off quickly and are now saving to buy a second used vehicle for use on the property. We do not keep cable so the tv is only run when someone is watching a movie. We have a ridiculous number of puzzles, board and card games and books to fill up free time.

We are pretty happy people and we feel rich in ways that it are difficult to explain. The changes, while unusual at first, actually made life feel more rewarding. We also know that, regardless of the reasons for the changes happening, we are contributing less to the destruction of resources needed desperately by so many in the world.

[GliderGuider]

15. I'm on board.

Most of the money and possessions I had 10 years ago are gone, and I find I'm much happier (except late at night when I think about the meaning of Copenhagen). I find much joy now in a circle of close and deep friends, the love of my soulmate, getting to know myself better, and experiencing the world around me as it truly is.

Money is the fish-hook inside the lure of Empire.

Edited to add: Not to mention that deliberate, widespread impoverishment is the only thing that has even a chance of saving this cycle of civilization. Best we do it ourselves rather than wait for others or Mother Nature to dictate terms.

[eilen]

16. Have you heard of The Dark Mountain Project?

Uncivilization? http://www.dark-mountain.net/ They have a blog http://www.dark-mountain.net/blog/
and a manifesto. For those of us in whom "hope" is fast becoming a distraction, an indadequate luxury to the real work of life ahead of us.

Welcome to the Dark Mountain Project: a new cultural movement for an age of global disruption.
We aim to question the stories that underpin our failing civilisation, to craft new ones for the age ahead and to write clearly and honestly about our true place in the world.
Take a look around, and if you like what you see – join us.

[GliderGuider]

17. I sure have. I love it!

Questioning the stories that underpin this cycle of civilization is crucial if we are to create more effective ones to lead us into the the next cycle.

The necessity of questioning our stories is why I feel that personal inner work is so crucial to the unfoldment of our culture. I believe strongly that being able to see ourselves as we truly are as individuals is an essential precursor to addressing the situation we live in as it truly is. Only if we address our inner and outer situations free of preconditioning, cognitive veils, filters, or unconscious reactivity can we truly see what's going on and make effective, useful decisions about how to address it.

[eilen]

18. As do I

Have you had any crack at the reading list? I recently found DMP and thus have had little time to develop anything for their upcoming journal as the deadline is fast approaching. Have you planned anything?

[GliderGuider]

20. I don't write well enough to submit.

I tend to be didactic, pedantic and rhetorical. They are looking for real writers, and my touch is still too heavy for that endeavour. I post on my own web site and, and repost some stuff on Planethoughts.org and Carolyn Baker's email list.

[Dover]

19. Or perhaps we need to redefine "WEALTH", and what it really means.

Abundance as unrelated to 'things' or money.

So rather than encouraging deliberate "poverty" we can simply begin to look at what in our lives is abundant. Not just semantics but a perception of life.

[bhikkhu]

22. Certainly, and I think more about happiness than money

I like the "Gross National Happiness" idea that I heard of in Bhutan, as well as the speech Sarkozy gave earlier in the year about perhaps looking more at quality of life and happiness than GDP as a national goal.

I find life much more enjoyable with a lower-stress job and much less stuff. I have much less money to spend, but I have more time to spend, and learning to spend it well is a skill worth developing.

[BeFree]

23. Indeed: Redefine wealth

I live in voluntary poverty; A conscious choice made long ago that gave me more time and freedom to do as I pleased. Folks who have known me have said that my wealth of freedom is more worthy than money, which is a fleeting thing.

Some have said that they wished they could live like I, and I tell them they can if they give up their fancy cars, houses, clothes and food. Of course that is abhorrent!!

Using some of my free time to participate in democracy has garnered some scorn. Am told others would do likewise but they have to work and keep up their houses, etc.

The only regret in life is that the destruction of the natural world, which continues unabated, can not be stopped by me. So I suffer this witnessing in stride.

And this little saying has affirmed my lifestyle:
The only goods we take with us are do good, be good and feel good.

[Nederland]

26. Voluntary Poverty?

Just curious, do you own the computer you make these posts from, or do you use a computer at a library or something like that?

[bhikkhu]

27. I'm aware of the hypocritical aspect of it

Yes, I have a computer. But I don't have a tv, or a stereo or anything else like that. I used to collect books, but I sold most of them and now spend a lot of time at the library. I do my errands and commute to work by bicycle. The heater warms to 64 degrees in the morning and evenings, and the rest of the time I wear a couple of sweaters, and a good lot of blankets at night. I garden to grow as much food as I can, cook simple things instead of going out, and so on...much of it is the result of not quite making enough money to live on for the past 4 years. Possessions have dwindled, and by habit I'd rather not have the burden of possession over most things anyway. Then in the context of climate change and our energy issues, I realize that I have been going in the right direction and haven't really minded at all.

But I know, and I have often told my kids, that we live in the wealthiest country in the world, in the wealthiest and most comfortable time period that humanity has ever enjoyed. I've lived below the poverty line for years, but the majority in the world have less still. Looking back through history, I think I enjoy more luxuries than many kings and princes of not too long ago.

Which to me is just another reason to enjoy what I have and share what I don't need. I think that the trajectory of this country and the world is more toward my situation, and its better to choose and adapt than to complain and try to hold onto what is unsustainable.

[bhikkhu]

28. ...and about the computer

Its actually a kind of typical story how I came to have it. I bought it originally in 1995 or so, as a good deal from a small builder in LA, as a demo model he wasn't making anymore. It worked more or less well - the old crash and virus prone Windows - until 2000 or so, when it finally died. When the time came that I really needed a computer I dusted it off and took it apart, and read some books on how they were built...then it was a matter of slowly piecing it back together with up to date parts. The motherboard and CPU were gotten on clearance from an online retailer, and most of the rest was from a liquidator I was able to set up a commercial account with through marital connections. The monitor was gotten on a "rewards" program from a supplier we use at my work. I never was able to afford a new Windows program or any of the Office stuff, so I set it up with Linux. Back then, that was a pretty steep learning curve, but well worth it now.

Like most of the things I do have, its cobbled together, mostly old, partly new, and if it breaks I'll figure out the problem and fix it one way or another. I don't think anyone would pay much for it and I would do without it if I had to, but I do get some satisfaction out of having built it and used it well.

[BeFree]

32. Good question

Of course, compared to the rest of the world I am rich beyond most dreams.
But relative to my Americans, I am living in poverty. Computers are cheap.

[silverweb]

33. That seems to be a disingenuous question.

How about if a person owns a decent computer and in exchange forgoes other things -- using it for work (eliminate car/commuting), TV, stereo, library, newspapers, magazines, and even telephone, or any combination thereof?

How about if the computer a person owns is a good one, but was reconditioned and not purchased new?

Do those things count?

[bhikkhu]

36. "True wealth is the ability to be generous"

You might have mountains of stuff, or you might not have much at all, but you're only wealthy if you're not hanging on to it too tight.

[silverweb]

29. Absolutely agree.

I call it "living simply" rather than "poverty," but it's the same idea and I love it.

Great post! :thumbsup:

[TheWraith]

30. So where do you think healthcare comes from?

Do you not understand the innate linkage between existence of a high tech scientific industrial base and things like cures for diseases, increased longevity, and improved quality of life?

[bhikkhu]

31. Good things are essentially separable

and the argument is that as fossil fuels decline and CO2 driven climate change proceeds, we have to choose carefully what we keep and what we do without. The massive industrialization of every aspect of consumption is unnecessary and unsustainable; and as Lao Tzu (I think) wrote - if you don't change course, you will wind up where you are going. For instance, I'd like to stop hearing myself about "developing" countries, as though we are still under the illusion that the lifestyle of the 90's will soon be the lifestyle of everyone, as if that were a good thing, whether even possible or not.

Inasmuch as our high tech scientific industrial base has resulted in the alteration and destruction of much of the natural world in my lifetime, and is projected to do much worse in the lifetimes of my children, I don't feel too indebted to it. Healthcare is good, but subject to the same sane limits and realities as anything else. If we see a worst case scenario on sea level rise, something over 200 million will be displaced by the end of the century. If there has to be a trade off in medical advances to limit that displacement to 1/2, I'd say it was worth it.

[kestrel91316]

35. So, we all have to have iPhones and Hummers and McMansions in order

for there to be decent healthcare????? And we have to eat vast amounts of processed foods and imported out-of-season produce for there to be decent healthcare???

Hmmmmmm. I guess I don't get how that follows.

[kestrel91316]

34. I don't think of it as "deliberate poverty" but rather "simple living".

I forget who said it best: "That man is rich whose wants are few."

[amborin]

37. great post!

in parallel, we need to stop thinking of "development" as something good

there have been some articles about personal "downsizing" and how it not only reduces our 'footprint', but allows us to rediscover human values

[Electric Monk]

38. I prefer the term "Voluntary Simplicity" for essentially the same concept

and I've been practicing it for nearly a decade, and still going strong.

[flow_urgirl]

39. I would be calling this deliberate self worth and holistically minded

Not at all a poverty of any description. Not at all anything bad about that at all.

Self reliant farming is a goal of mine. On a permaculture farm, which also generates its own power source and using vegie oil for a van, or even a car or diesel ute. Not much to pay once you have found good sources to get used oil, such as from cooking at restaurants. Have seen it happen just the other week when I was in my friends van. Totally inspiring.

Plenty more ways other than dumpster diving to be sourcing food from once it is established, maybe even from a friends farm to be gifted with a few seedlings or seeds from fruit etc..

Free living, free of supermarket plastic..that is one thing I am aiming for...

Food co-op for now.


Happy New Yera!!

[GliderGuider]

40. Well said. And may I add,

I absolutely love your screen name. That's multi-layered with a vengeance!

Welcome to this corner of DU.