Plug-and-Play Panels Hit Shelves at Lowe's Energy Center in 21 Locations

[kristopher]

Plug-and-Play Panels Hit Shelves at Lowe's Energy Center in 21 Locations

LOS GATOS, Calif., Dec 10, 2009 (GlobeNewswire via COMTEX News Network) -- For the first time, homeowners can purchase high-performing, easy-to-install solar panels off the shelves of a major retailer, announced Akeena Solar Inc. (Nasdaq:AKNS), a leading installer and manufacturer of solar power systems. The Andalay AC panels are available at 21 Lowe's home-improvement stores throughout California. The panels, which were recently honored with a 2009 Popular Mechanics Breakthrough Product award, are featured as part of Lowe's Energy Center at the stores.

"The PC revolution in the computer industry occurred when new technology made PCs easy to use and affordable," said Barry Cinnamon, CEO of Akeena Solar. "Likewise, with panels becoming plug-and-play appliances, the solar revolution has started. The availability of solar panels in Lowe's stores makes it easy for homeowners to go solar and is a big step toward getting solar on every sunny rooftop."

The Lowe's Energy Center is a one-stop, easy-to-shop destination that empowers customers to create an energy plan that fits their budget and home-improvement goals. An information kiosk offers a touch-screen display to help customers evaluate their home's solar and wind potential, and the Energy Center features products that help them measure their energy use, reduce energy consumption and generate clean energy. Lowe's is the first major retailer to offer many of these products in one place, products that range from power monitors and small solar chargers to a solar panel system. The Energy Center will be in additional U.S. and Canadian stores in 2010.

Breakthrough Andalay AC Panels are Safer, More Reliable and Simpler to Install

Andalay AC panels, developed by Akeena Solar in Silicon Valley, have integrated racking, wiring and grounding -- reducing the overall parts count by 80 percent and protecting against performance-threatening breakdowns that could happen with ordinary DC power systems.

Andalay panels also have built-in inverters that produce household AC power, so there is no high-voltage DC wiring. These safety and reliability benefits are achieved without compromising performance. In fact, Andalay AC panels produce 5 to 25 percent more energy output compared with ordinary DC solar panels. Because of the modular design of Andalay AC panels, homeowners could install a few panels now and gradually add on later, unlike DC systems that require a complete redesign when adding panels.

Ordinary DC solar power systems also require special installation skills. The innovations provided by Andalay's AC solar system deliver simplicity and safety so that for the first time, electricians, HVAC contractors and experienced do-it-yourselfers can install a solar power system without specialized training.

"Buying panels off the shelf at Lowe's offers solar options to homeowners that they didn't have," continued Cinnamon. "Homeowners now can get a system as small as one panel. With Andalay's safe household AC power design, they are the only real choice for do-it-yourselfers."

Participating Lowe's stores will stock the accessories required for installation, eliminating the need for do-it-yourselfers and contractors to pre-order components and enabling them to pick up what they need on the way to the installation.

http://ir.akeena.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=429296

About Akeena Solar, Inc.

Founded in 2001, Akeena Solar's philosophy is simple: We believe producing clean electricity directly from the sun is the right thing to do for our environment and economy. Akeena Solar has grown to become one of the nation's leading installers and manufacturers of solar power systems. Akeena Solar's revolutionary Andalay AC solar panels produce safe household AC power and have built-in racking, wiring, grounding and inverters. With 80% fewer parts and 5-25% better performance than ordinary DC panels, Andalay panels are an ideal solution for solar installers, trades workers and do-it-yourselfers. For more information on the company, visit www.akeena.com. Installers can also visit www.andalaysolar.com to learn more about the Andalay panels.

SOURCE: Akeena Solar, Inc.
http://www.akeena.com/

[lapfog_1]

1. Apparently, Lowes is selling these panels for $893

for a 175 W panel (actual rating 157 W). Not exactly a steal (I've found 200 W mono-crystalline panels for $640 if 12 panels are purchased), but the micro-inverters and easy installation (at least advertised) sounds attractive.

http://guntherportfolio.com/2009/12/andalay-solar-shopping-at-lowes/

[madokie]

2. Can't wait to see them in garage sales

where the purchaser never got around to installing it. Be surprised at the things i've bought through the years under similar situations.

[NNadir]

23. Um, why don't you just go buy some, um, now?

You can add them to all the solar equipment you have on your roof right now, no?

I mean, after all of this, you certainly aren't going to say that you don't own a solar PV system and a few tons of batteries, are you?

[phantom power]

4. The price does include the inverter, though, which Are Not Cheap.

[lapfog_1]

5. Yes, I noted that, as does the OP.

and there is an advantage in having an inverter per panel, it either the panel or the inverter fail, all you lose is the one panel.

OTOH, for a significant installation (16 panels or more), a central inverter is more cost effective.

And yet, if one is buying and adding panels over a period of time (say one panel every 2 months as finances allow), the micro-inverter is attractive.

Trade-offs.

[TxRider]

8. Still the price needs to get down to $150-$200 a panel

For it to really take off.

[tigereye]

3. well, that's pretty damn cool!

[TxRider]

6. Yup it is pretty cool, for a start.

Give it a couple of years for others to come into that market and start competing for "so easy a caveman can do it" solar installations and we'll really be seeing cool.

[Tansy_Gold]

7. In central AZ, these oughta be on every single roof

As soon as I can afford them, they'll be on mine, and I may have to start one at a time.

:yourock: Lowe's and Akeena!!!




Tansy Gold, settin' aside a few pennies a day. . . . .

[TxRider]

9. Interesting

Reading up on them, it seems an internet connection is required for them to report in to the central web server for operation and monitoring.

Not sure I like that.

[kristopher]

10. Where is the reference to an internet connection?

[kristopher]

11. Found it. Not sure you like it, huh?

Why not?

Solar Power Working In Real Time

To help customers monitor the actual benefits of their solar power systems in real time, Akeena Solar, in partnership with Fat Spaniel Technologies, has pioneered remote solar power monitoring for homes or businesses. You can access this information in two ways:

* Web-Based Solar Energy Monitoring System: Access your system’s performance, track net building energy usage, and receive fault notification from any Web browser.
* Dedicated Device: Install a display to monitor your solar energy system performance on a dedicated device or on a Windows-based PC.

Because the dollar value of energy savings is so high, virtually all commercial systems include remote monitoring.

With customized financing as low as 0% down, and up to 50% of your costs covered by limited-time incentives, there has never been a better time to go solar with Akeena! If you want to find out if solar is right for you, and the incentives and rebates for which you qualify, please schedule your free Solar Evaluation today!
http://www.akeena.com/residential/monitoring.php

The smart grid is an inevitable part of the future; this demonstrates one reason why.



Come on, surely you can find something more negative to say than lame claims that it costs too much and an objection that it works with internet monitoring, can't you?

[TxRider]

12. Not really no

It does cost too much, but new tech generally does.

I'm sure that in time energy output will rise, and price will fall, and the right dollar per watt ratio will be reached. Maybe less time than any of us expect.

As for monitoring, I see no reason that it needs to be remotely done on their server. Nothing to do with smart grid, it just doesn't apply. I would prefer it to be on my own server instead. Which may actually be possible, though the literature doesn't mention that as an option. Sounds more like something they want to eventually charge monthly for.

I'm looking at it from more of an off grid perspective. For the vast majority monitoring from a central server will be a benefit not a problem, provided they have a net connection that is stable, for millions this is not the case though.

But it is specifically set up for a simplified on grid urban/suburban use not for off grid use. Maybe they have other options for off grid.

[kristopher]

13. quote

"You can access this information in two ways:

* Web-Based Solar Energy Monitoring System: Access your system’s performance, track net building energy usage, and receive fault notification from any Web browser.


* Dedicated Device: Install a display to monitor your solar energy system performance on a dedicated device or on a Windows-based PC."


It sounds like they have you covered if you want it on your own computer. A lot of people don't want to screw with that, however, and offering a central solution that IS relevant to how a smart grid operates is a good part of the package (unless, perhaps, you tend towards Ted Kaczynski style logic).

A smart grid integrates and manages ALL power sources and demands, even a 2KW home system. Today's grid only manages power at the megawatt+ level.

[TxRider]

15. Yup

The software looks to be very good as well, from what I can see from the videos. As I said it's a benefit for most, but millions do not have broadband internet.

It's also not useful if grid power shuts off evidently.

Nothing to do with Ted Kaczynski to want to get off the grid entirely, that just a cheap insult.

As for smart grid, they don't say anywhere that the management system ties into your electric company or grid operator. Unless it integrates management into the power company/grid operator it's got nothing to do with smart grid tech.

Smart grid is monitoring and control of those distributed systems by the grid operator, as well as control over power usage at your home remotely managing appliances and variable billing where power cost varies by the minute or by the second proportional to overall demand.

They are trying to start going into smart grid technology here, at least my power company is, but the power company remotely managing people's thermostats across the internet doesn't seem to be a very popular idea for many. Applying variable rates where power is 2-4x as expensive in peak load times could change that I guess.

I do like the distributed inverter setup, nice execution for grid tied suburban consumers.

[kristopher]

18. You need to learn or think about how a smart grid WILL operate.

Since they aren't here yet no appliance is tied to one, is it? That is an absurd objection you've posed.

That doesn't mean the technology isn't being configured to allow it to function as PART of a smart grid as such management systems ARE developed and built.

[TxRider]

19. Really

Then you can tell my power company not to call me any more asking to install a digital meter and networked thermostat so they can control it for me then. Since their remote management system doesn't exist and all in your mind, I'm sure they would be interested in your all knowing opinion.

That is here, now, and is part of smart grid. Smart grid is intelligent integration of power sources, centralized and distributed, variable pricing rising with demand during peak load times, and remote management of appliances like my my air conditioner. Here's a picture of it.

http://earth2tech.com/2009/07/09/a-broadband-savvy-energy-retailer-down-in-texas/

These panels we are talking about, are not part of any smart grid tech, just simplified monitoring through their web site. Nothing to do with your power provider or grid management at all.

Smart grid tech is going to be deployed mainly through digital meters and load balancing first and it has been in deployment for some time.

"Since they aren't here yet no appliance is tied to one, is it? That is an absurd objection you've posed."

You need to catch up with the times caveman, there were over 80,000 AC thermostats connected into the smart grid in Austin, Tx. alone by last summer.

"Austin's "Smart Grid 1.0" has deployed 410,000 smart meters, and expects to have all of its customers equipped with a smart meter by late summer, said Andres Carvallo, Austin Energy CIO. The utility has also installed 86,000 thermostats that it can control remotely to cycle off during peak load events, as well as about 2,500 distribution grid sensors across its service territory."

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/top-ten-smart-grid-3605/N10/

I live in Dallas, where we are installing the same type system, with intelligent grid monitoring and smart meters and remote appliance controls so not everyone's AC comes on and runs at the same time, to level out peak loads. My power company has called me 3 times offering to come install a smart meter and a networked thermostat.

Smarter power distribution will come later as it evolves as will variable pricing charging more per KWh in peak load times once they have 100% coverage with smart meters. For now load balancing seems to be the low hanging fruit.

[kristopher]

21. .

I'm curious as to what you think you accomplish with these simplistic, egoistic gyrations you constantly go through? You pop off about something you clearly don't understand, then do a bit of internet browsing to try and fool people. Do you really think it isn't obvious?

I'm glad you now understand what a smart grid is, but your pretense is tiresome. Those things you mention are, as is the monitoring network for the panels, all elements of a smart grid, however, there doesn't yet exist anywhere where there is an integrated "smart grid" beyond very limited trials. This is an example of the *pilot projects* that are out there at this time.

What is SmartGridCity?

Xcel Energy has announced plans to build out an entire community that combines traditional and cutting-edge technology to modernize our energy grid and provide new, innovative ways to provide you with the best service possible. SmartGridCity is the nation's first fully integrated smart grid community and will boast the largest and densest concentration of these emerging technologies to date. Boulder, Colorado has been selected as the site of SmartGridCity.
http://smartgridcity.xcelenergy.com/learn/frequently-asked-questions.asp

You were the clueless tyke trying to make some sort of a paranoid invasion-of-privacy type issue of the internet monitoring capability that goes with the panels offered by Lowes. When it is pointed out to you that designing in this type of IT capability makes sense in light of the *coming* smart grid; you go off on one of your fantasy fugues trying to create a reality where you are ahead of the curve instead of always playing catch-up.

At least you learn something through these exchanges; that's more than a lot of people can say.

[TxRider]

27. Give it up cavemen

"You were the clueless tyke trying to make some sort of a paranoid invasion-of-privacy type issue of the internet monitoring capability that goes with the panels offered by Lowes."

Only about 60% of households even have a broadband connection available to them. I stated I'm not sure if "I" like it, mainly due to that reason. Where I want to implement PV is one of those areas, dialup or intermittent satellite only like tens of millions of households. I never said anything about any invasion of privacy, that's all in your twisted little pimple of a mind, it's purely a technical consideration for me.

As I clearly said, it's a benefit for the suburban homeowner.

And this system at lowes has nothing whatsoever to do with any smart grid, pilot or otherwise, zero, nada zip.

What does have to with smart grid technology is what power companies like mine are doing now, today, working methodically to cover a metro area with smart grid technology, the first of which is load balancing existing power loads. Millions on long term infrastructure investment starting with smart meters.

Here's your "Smart grid city"...

"Assuming it gets regulatory approval, Xcel will offer cheaper electricity prices at night, when demand is low. Its new system will send signals to appliances in the DeStefano house, telling them it is a better time to charge the car, or to run the clothes dryer. DeStefano and his wife will heed these signals, but the larger question hanging over Boulder is what will everyone else do?"

http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2009/10/20/20climatewire-largest-smart-grid-test-hopes-to-shock-consu-92426.html

Doing the exact same thing my city is doing, the same thing Austin is doing, starting with smart meters and remote management of appliances and variable day/night rates. Building out smart distribution over time with distributed power generation, green energy etc.

As for limited trials, Austin power is not a trial, it's their long term program. The city owns the power company and has been deploying for 5 years. They reached 100% saturation of smart meters this summer. Next they can go to phase 2 with variable rates and networking appliances and control, as they have already done for almost 25% of AC systems on all homes in the city this summer. Austin is the first fully operational smart grid system, and the number one in the nation in renewable energy sales. Yup that's a very limited pilot alright... Go crawl back in your cave..

http://www.smartmeters.com/the-news/712-austin-powers-smart-grid-10.html

"Ranked by renewable energy sales (kWh/year), the green power program of Austin Energy (Texas) is first in the nation. Rounding out the top five are Portland General Electric (Ore.), PacifiCorp (Oregon and five other states), Xcel Energy (Minnesota and seven other states), and the Sacramento Municipal Utility District (Calif.)."

http://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2009/679.html

Why do you persist in this silly emotional reactive BS? Especially when you clearly don't know what you are talking about and resort to making ridiculous misinterpretations to make any kind of rational point at all?



I looked at this system, said it's neat, but it's expensive and I don't think I like the internet connectivity that appeared to be necessary to turn it on from the documentation. Everything else is just a figment of your feeble mind making ridiculous assumptions as usual.

[kristopher]

29. You need to do a little more study, you're still letting your ego get in the way...

If you read a bit more you'll come to understand that a smart grid is a key element of renewable energy deployment because of the nature of distributed generation. The smart grid doesn't just manage demand; in order to maximize the value of the power produced by all systems (even small home solar generation) the smart grid is needed to manage power at all levels, including the micro level. In order to do that, home systems will need to be configured to report the same information to the utilities that is being gathered for the monitoring in the panels we are discussing. That is why they are set up with the monitoring package - long term advance planning. It is simply good business sense to design the capability into such a system now instead of waiting and having to redesign and retrofit later.

For a different yet similar example look into how the smart grid and V2G work together. But I suppose you'll say that the push for PHEVs has nothing to do with the smart grid either...

[TxRider]

30. Ok then

Show me where in their documentation they state their long term advance planning goal is specifically to incorporate their specific web site monitoring system into any utility operators smart grid system to allow said utility operator to monitor and control the system.

It's clear what a smart grid is, but to say that this monitoring system for these panels is part of some long term advance planning on the companies part to be part of a smart grid is simply a figment of your imagination as far as I can see. Wishful thinking which has not been stated in any way by the company as a goal of this system as you say it is.

I could be wrong, they may have stated that goal, it may be their plan, but I haven't seen it if it is. Point it out and enlighten me.

Hell you weren't even aware it was monitored remotely at all until I pointed it out to you.

That you can somehow assume that me stating this system is not designed to be part of a smart grid as me somehow being unaware of smart grid technology having distributed power sources such as small PV solar as part of the system is simply your stupidity and ridiculous assumptions showing again.

And you have the audacity to speak of ego?

ROFLMAO

[kristopher]

31. Recognizing functionality by design isn't difficult.

For example, I don't need an owners manual to recognize what the function of a starter on an engine is. I don't need a set of written instructions to tell me that a broom is a device used to sweep a floor.

Similarly I don't need a written testimonial to recognize a self contained solar panel system that is designed to work in a smart grid.

You get more foolish by the day.

[TxRider]

32. So then

You cannot show any example of them saying their system is designed for smart grid integration and your imagination is all there is.

The system was specifically designed to be simple for a homeowner to install and operate. Simplified physical installation, simplified electrical installation, and simplified monitoring installation for the homeowner.

Specifically designed for sale at a box store outlet to consumers, for consumer market penetration and not designed for smart grid integration.

As I said, show me anywhere where they acknowledge that they are specifically designing for a smart grid integration, which apparently you cannot.

Dream on as the systems that really are designed for smart grid integration and are monitored and controlled by the grid operator are installed in cities like Austin.

You didn't even dream up this little smart grid fantasy until I informed you it had internet monitoring.

And on top of it you have shown significant ignorance of what a smart grid is actually composed of, ignorance of currently deployed smart grids and currently interconnected home appliances on city wide scales or even the basic understanding of how smart grids are being constructed on the load balancing end of the integration. Come back when you at least know the basics of smart grid tech and the industry.

[kristopher]

33. Ah the reek of embarrassed ignorance trying to cover its ass.

That's why I love the internet - it records crap by people like you for everyone to see. In your mind I'm sure you believe that your initial bout with paranoia isn't obvious and that no one can tell you had to play catch-up the entire discussion.

You really do believe that.

You're wrong.

[TxRider]

34. Project yeah you do reek

I post...

"Reading up on them, it seems an internet connection is required for them to report in to the central web server for operation and monitoring.

Not sure I like that."

You post..

"why not?"


I post..

"As for monitoring, I see no reason that it needs to be remotely done on their server. Nothing to do with smart grid, it just doesn't apply. I would prefer it to be on my own server instead. Which may actually be possible, though the literature doesn't mention that as an option. Sounds more like something they want to eventually charge monthly for.

I'm looking at it from more of an off grid perspective. For the vast majority monitoring from a central server will be a benefit not a problem, provided they have a net connection that is stable, for millions this is not the case though.

But it is specifically set up for a simplified on grid urban/suburban use not for off grid use. Maybe they have other options for off grid."


No paranoia anywhere in sight, only your asinine assumption that I didn't like their monitoring due to privacy issues, which I never thought nor said.

----

And then discussion devolves into you trying to cover your embarrassingly ignorant statements like...

"Since they aren't here yet no appliance is tied to one, is it? That is an absurd objection you've posed.

That doesn't mean the technology isn't being configured to allow it to function as PART of a smart grid as such management systems ARE developed and built."

So I show you where about 25% of AC systems, the largest appliance, are connected and remotely managed in cities like Austin, are being connected by the thousands in Dallas and other cities daily.

And no it doesn't mean it isn't being configured to allow it to function as part of a smart grid, but it doesn't mean it is being configured to either, one would think if it was they would mention it, or rather shout it from the rooftop in their PR releases.

----

And then you show even more ignorance...

"however, there doesn't yet exist anywhere where there is an integrated "smart grid" beyond very limited trials. "

So I show you the 100% saturation of smart meters in the capital city of Texas, a city wide operational smart grid with 25% of thermostats remotely managed already and climbing. Mention my power provider doing the same, as are many others.

You have shown your total ignorance of how a smart grid works, how many are already deployed and deploying, and the fact they are starting out with a smart meter, appliance management for load balancing and variable pricing to consumers to get the low hanging fruit before moving deeply into distributed power sources.


And your other ridiculous assertion that the company designed this as a long term smart grid strategy when they have said nothing of the sort.


Your reeking pretty badly about now.


I live in a state where energy is our life blood, I have immediate relatives in the coal power industry, the wind energy industry, and the Nat gas cogeneration industry as well as the power grid industry here. I tend to stay up to date with current events in those regards.

I'm a half century old, and researching and planning for 100% off grid retirement on alternative energy and building my own alternative fuel hybrid electric vehicle myself at the moment. I tend to keep up to date on technologies available for those purposes and their applicability to my plans.

It's not hard at all to show up the ignorance of an internet jockey simpleton such as yourself.

[kristopher]

35. Why do you keep trying to deceive people?

You can't even honestly relate the dialog we've had even though it is right there for reference.
You wrote:

I post...

"Reading up on them, it seems an internet connection is required for them to report in to the central web server for operation and monitoring.

Not sure I like that."

You post..

"why not?"


I post..

"As for monitoring, I see no reason that it needs to be remotely done on their server. Nothing to do with smart grid, it just doesn't apply. I would prefer it to be on my own server instead. Which may actually be possible, though the literature doesn't mention that as an option. Sounds more like something they want to eventually charge monthly for.

I'm looking at it from more of an off grid perspective....

It should actually read:

TxRider Mon Jan-04-10 03:38 PM Response to Original message
9. Interesting
Reading up on them, it seems an internet connection is required for them to report in to the central web server for operation and monitoring.

Not sure I like that.

kristopher Mon Jan-04-10 04:11 PM Response to Reply #9
11. Found it. Not sure you like it, huh?

Why not?

Solar Power Working In Real Time

To help customers monitor the actual benefits of their solar power systems in real time, Akeena Solar, in partnership with Fat Spaniel Technologies, has pioneered remote solar power monitoring for homes or businesses. You can access this information in two ways:

* Web-Based Solar Energy Monitoring System: Access your system’s performance, track net building energy usage, and receive fault notification from any Web browser.
* Dedicated Device: Install a display to monitor your solar energy system performance on a dedicated device or on a Windows-based PC.

Because the dollar value of energy savings is so high, virtually all commercial systems include remote monitoring.

With customized financing as low as 0% down, and up to 50% of your costs covered by limited-time incentives, there has never been a better time to go solar with Akeena! If you want to find out if solar is right for you, and the incentives and rebates for which you qualify, please schedule your free Solar Evaluation today!
http://www.akeena.com/residential/monitoring.php

The smart grid is an inevitable part of the future; this demonstrates one reason why.


TxRider Mon Jan-04-10 07:25 PM Response to Reply #11
12. Not really no
It does cost too much, but new tech generally does.
I'm sure that in time energy output will rise, and price will fall, and the right dollar per watt ratio will be reached. Maybe less time than any of us expect.

As for monitoring, I see no reason that it needs to be remotely done on their server. Nothing to do with smart grid, it just doesn't apply. I would prefer it to be on my own server instead. Which may actually be possible, though the literature doesn't mention that as an option. Sounds more like something they want to eventually charge monthly for.

I'm looking at it from more of an off grid perspective. For the vast majority monitoring from a central server will be a benefit not a problem, provided they have a net connection that is stable, for millions this is not the case though.

But it is specifically set up for a simplified on grid urban/suburban use not for off grid use. Maybe they have other options for off grid.

As to your continued insistence that your definition of what constitutes a "smart grid" is correct, well, that just isn't supported by the facts. As the record above shows you WERE insinuating a paranoid state of mind, and you didn't have a clue about what the significance of the monitoring system was. Now you try to hide that by making these bizarre claims that smart meters and remote demand management are not just elements of a smart grid - but an actual functioning "smart grid".

Unfortuntely that claim is just one more facet of your ignorance blazing forth for they are just that - *elements* of what will someday be "a" smart grid. They are not "a" smart grid as the term is commonly used until there is integration of generation and storage.

What you are talking about has not traditionally been called "a" smart grid, it is usually discussed under the heading of 'demand side management programs'.

[TxRider]

36. ROFL

More idiotic assumptions from your twisted little pimple of a mind...

"As to your continued insistence that your definition of what constitutes a "smart grid" is correct, well, that just isn't supported by the facts. As the record above shows you WERE insinuating a paranoid state of mind, and you didn't have a clue about what the significance of the monitoring system was."


No paranoia shown anywhere at all, where you come up with my having any issue with remote monitpring due to some percieved privacy issue is completely in your own mind, certainly not in mine.

My comment simply states this particular monitoring system has nothing to do with any smart grid, anywhere, in any way. This particular system was purposefully designed specifically to gain sales and market penetration in the consumer market from an ease of installation and use standpoint to the homeowner.

And that for millions without a dedicated internet connection, as I may be before long, this persistent network connection requirement as the installation documentation alludes to is problematic.

I am far more clued into smart grid technology and monitoring and management at every level from consumer to grid operator than you will likely ever be. This particular system is not purposely designed with that goal in mind, period.

An idiot who didn't even know these systems have monitoring, who isn't aware of city wide monitoring and management in place today for both demand management and delivery management, is lecturing me on having a clue? ROFL..

---------

Squirm on dude...

"...Now you try to hide that by making these bizarre claims that smart meters and remote demand management are not just elements of a smart grid - but an actual functioning "smart grid".Now you try to hide that by making these bizarre claims that smart meters and remote demand management are not just elements of a smart grid - but an actual functioning "smart grid".

Unfortuntely that claim is just one more facet of your ignorance blazing forth for they are just that - *elements* of what will someday be "a" smart grid. They are not "a" smart grid as the term is commonly used until there is integration of generation and storage.

What you are talking about has not traditionally been called "a" smart grid, it is usually discussed under the heading of 'demand side management programs'."


Coming from the arm chair internet jockey who says no remote home appliance management is hooked into any grid yet..

I never claimed these elements comprised a smart grid in their entirety, quite the opposite.

Of course it is just elements of what the smart grid is compsed of, but exactly how many elements must be present before you can call a grid "smart"? When the system is digitized with system wide hardware and software for two way communication from generation to use point, smart meters reach 100% saturation, demand side management is in place as well as delivery side management? I think most would commonly call that a smart grid at that stage. At best your just splitting hairs and you know it.

I can go into detail about deployed intelligent power switching from Siemens, software systems from GE and other aspects of smart grid management if you wish to be embarrassed further, but it's quite off topic of plug and play panels being available at Lowes.


---------------


Do you want to see the actual real long term planning thoughts going into these panels? The reasoning these panels were purposely designed for? Straight from the manufacturer?

"The technology changes that will get us to this low price all relate to drastically simplifying the sales, design, engineering and installation costs for a system. Plug and play AC panels are the best way to achieve this goal. In the mean time, our industry is likely to continue with three distinct distribution channels: utility, commercial and residential. But it’s also likely that a new channel will emerge to serve the low end of the market – much the same as the personal computer industry grew in the early ‘80s out of the mainframe industry.

The area where low cost easy-to-install systems will have the most impact is for smaller residential and Do It Yourself (DIY) installations. Because of the dangers and complexity of high voltage DC systems, DIY solar has traditionally been inconceivable. But when a 1kw “solar in a box” product becomes available, it will open up the low end of the market just as PCs brought computing to the masses.

There are two types of companies that are likely to serve this new channel: traditional electrical or HVAC distributors, and big box hardware stores. They are both characterized by convenience and low prices, and are where the solar installers of the future are likely to shop. For years the solar industry has attempted to sell through these channels, but the parts count, design requirements and mounting systems have made it unfeasible to stock traditional DC panels and inverters. What used to take days to design, permit, order and receive should now fit in a single standardized retail box that a contractor loads in a truck in the morning on the way to the jobsite – like standard electrical supplies.

From an installation and a cost standpoint, most qualified electrical or HVAC contractors will have the right skills. Many “handy” homeowners will also take the plunge; perhaps they’ll just hire an electrician for $250 to install a dedicated PV branch circuit to the roof. The remaining work should not be much more difficult than installing a ceiling fan.

What’s extraordinarily significant about this new “contractor-retail” channel is that, because of the inherent safety and ease of installation of plug & play systems, there will be very little motivation for customers to go through the existing blizzard of permitting paperwork and interconnection documents. As a result, the indirect costs related to this paperwork will be eliminated, with negligible (or in the case of DIY) zero direct labor costs. Ironically, a professional solar contractor may still need to be hired to help with the paperwork to get the incentive – because that is the only remaining complicated part of an installation.

In this new channel – with labor and paperwork costs effectively reduced to zero, net system costs will be lower than the fully loaded costs of current utility, commercial and high-end residential installations. These lower net costs, coupled with typically higher marginal electric rates, will create short paybacks and lead to rapid market adoption. Customer buying habits may also change: small, simple PV systems will be purchased on a credit card. Need more power? Buy another 1kw of panels with your next paycheck.

Just as the availability of affordable home computers created the desktop software and add-on components industry, this new low-end solar channel is also likely to spawn an ecosystem of related companies and services. Naturally, electrical and HVAC contractors will participate in the solar boom. Supplemental services such as monitoring, panel cleaning, troubleshooting and energy management capabilities are likely to find a market."

http://www.akeena.net/community/blog.php

As I said, it is designed for ease of installation and use specifically to gain market penetration. Not specifically designed to be integrated into any smart grid. Squirm on dude.

And he is stating exactly I assumed, that this monitoring is looked at as a potential service to charge you monthly for, not some long term advance planning for smart grid integration. Get it yet?

"Supplemental services such as monitoring, panel cleaning, troubleshooting and energy management capabilities are likely to find a market."

And go catch up on currently deployed state of smart grid tech while your at it. Us ignorant racist rednecks in Texas are a bit tired of the ignorance rained upon us as we lead the way into wind and solar and smart grid deployment with the largest deployment of wind, smart grid and soon to be solar in the nation.

[kristopher]

37. I can just see you scurrying around google frantically trying to rehab yourself...

You know all about the smart grid, renewables and monitoring yet at your Glen Beckish best you wrote:

. Interesting

Reading up on them, it seems an internet connection is required for them to report in to the central web server for operation and monitoring.

Not sure I like that.

They *are* watching you while you try to play catch-up.


Now let's take a look at your "find" from the Akeena blog:

"The technology changes that will get us to this low price all relate to drastically simplifying the sales, design, engineering and installation costs for a system. Plug and play AC panels are the best way to achieve this goal. In the mean time, our industry is likely to continue with three distinct distribution channels: utility, commercial and residential. But it’s also likely that a new channel will emerge to serve the low end of the market – much the same as the personal computer industry grew in the early ‘80s out of the mainframe industry.

The area where low cost easy-to-install systems will have the most impact is for smaller residential and Do It Yourself (DIY) installations. Because of the dangers and complexity of high voltage DC systems, DIY solar has traditionally been inconceivable. But when a 1kw “solar in a box” product becomes available, it will open up the low end of the market just as PCs brought computing to the masses.

There are two types of companies that are likely to serve this new channel: traditional electrical or HVAC distributors, and big box hardware stores. They are both characterized by convenience and low prices, and are where the solar installers of the future are likely to shop. For years the solar industry has attempted to sell through these channels, but the parts count, design requirements and mounting systems have made it unfeasible to stock traditional DC panels and inverters. What used to take days to design, permit, order and receive should now fit in a single standardized retail box that a contractor loads in a truck in the morning on the way to the jobsite – like standard electrical supplies.

From an installation and a cost standpoint, most qualified electrical or HVAC contractors will have the right skills. Many “handy” homeowners will also take the plunge; perhaps they’ll just hire an electrician for $250 to install a dedicated PV branch circuit to the roof. The remaining work should not be much more difficult than installing a ceiling fan.

What’s extraordinarily significant about this new “contractor-retail” channel is that, because of the inherent safety and ease of installation of plug & play systems, there will be very little motivation for customers to go through the existing blizzard of permitting paperwork and interconnection documents. As a result, the indirect costs related to this paperwork will be eliminated, with negligible (or in the case of DIY) zero direct labor costs. Ironically, a professional solar contractor may still need to be hired to help with the paperwork to get the incentive – because that is the only remaining complicated part of an installation.

In this new channel – with labor and paperwork costs effectively reduced to zero, net system costs will be lower than the fully loaded costs of current utility, commercial and high-end residential installations. These lower net costs, coupled with typically higher marginal electric rates, will create short paybacks and lead to rapid market adoption. Customer buying habits may also change: small, simple PV systems will be purchased on a credit card. Need more power? Buy another 1kw of panels with your next paycheck.

Just as the availability of affordable home computers created the desktop software and add-on components industry, this new low-end solar channel is also likely to spawn an ecosystem of related companies and services. Naturally, electrical and HVAC contractors will participate in the solar boom. Supplemental services such as monitoring, panel cleaning, troubleshooting and energy management capabilities are likely to find a market."


Now the product is on the shelves, it has a "scary" system that monitors the output and performance of the unit and is ready for integration at a central site.

The makers are clearly forward thinking and that describes a unit configured to be ready for integration into the smart grid. Your claim is silly on its face - the capability for performance and output monitoring are going to be required for such systems to operate as part of a smart grid. These systems are designed with that in mind. It isn't complicated and you have provided no evidence that they were not designing with smart grid requirements in mind.

None.

[TxRider]

38. It just goes right over your head.

I don't need to research smart grid tech, but I did need to research these new PV panels and how they work. I may want to buy some as the distributed inverter per panel approach could have obvious advantages.


"Now the product is on the shelves, it has a "scary" system that monitors the output and performance of the unit and is ready for integration at a central site."


Nothing scary, I'm looking at technologies and vendors for my own system to be installed in a rural home on 15 acres.

I like the sound of this system, so I immediately want to look into the technical details of how it connects into a home power system, how will it relate a to storage battery systems since it's AC output. I found to my pleasure, that it ties right in through the home's breaker panel as a two pole 240V breaker, awesome!

Then I see this..

Envoy Installation Preparation
Before installing the Envoy, make sure that your site meets the following minimum
requirements:
- Broadband is always on with a reliable Internet connection
- Web browser to view Enlighten is available
- Router / LAN with Ethernet port is available
- Standard AC electrical outlet is available

I think to myself, hey self, I don't know if I will actually have access to "broadband that is always on with a reliable internet connection" 15 miles from the nearest town out in the country at my site in few years. Hmm.. I go post hat it seems to require an internet connection and I'm not sure I like that... As in "undecided", as in maybe there's a way around that, I have to investigate more.

That to you means I'm some Ted Kazinski Luddite paranoid weirdo that someone might see how much solar power I make? Your an idiot my friend.

Of course, in your irrational kneejerk mind, anyone who says anything that could be remotely skeptical of any solar or wind system must be a)irrational and b) unfounded.


The device in question is called an "envoy", a communications gateway device for the inverters used in these panels. I have researched it further, and yes I can actually use it without an internet connection, though you get only a bare bones text output for display. Fine by me as I can program my bells and whistles for it. So now I am decided about it, and it's not an issue.

The next issue is off grid installation, and power storage.

Off grid installation seems iffier, so it may be right out for me due to the micro inverter itself, I have to research more..

"Can Enphase Microinverters work in off-grid environments?

-- Enphase Microinverters have only been tested to work in grid-tied installations.

Do the Enphase Microinverters automatically disconnect when the grid shuts down (e.g. for power company repairs)?

--Yes. Enphase Microinverters are CSA-listed to the UL 1741 standard for utility-interactive applications. If the utility voltage source is out of voltage or frequency spec, or if the utility is disconnected, the inverter will not feed current or voltage to the grid side terminals. This functionality is implemented with any grid-tied inverter, so it will not "island" and potentially hurt line workers."

And I will continue to research this last aspect of their product.


--------------


"The makers are clearly forward thinking and that describes a unit configured to be ready for integration into the smart grid."

ROFL the makers are clearly forward thinking alright, for their own back pockets. The plan is to make you -pay- for it. They could give fark less about a smart grid.

They have a simple RMON device that grabs an IP address through DHCP protocol from your broadband router and pop a simple update packet via HTTPS protocol to their web server every 5 minutes and sets it's clock via NTP protocol to a time server, that's it, that's all.

The nice forward thinking is to charge you a subscription based charge to show you what your own PV system is putting out, and e-mail you if it alerts that a panel has stopped working.

You don't believe me? Here read this on the Enphase site, the company that makes the monitoring gateway and runs the monitoring site and service...

All purchases of the Enphase Microinverter System (both residential and commercial) include a 90-day subscription for Enlighten. Subscription extensions are sold at an MSRP of US$2.00 per inverter per year. Subscription extensions may be purchased at the time of initial microinverter purchase or anytime thereafter. Enlighten system owners will be sent email notifications within 30 days of expiration with instructions on how to purchase extensions. System owners may also log in to Enlighten and visit the “Subscription” page to view their subscription expiration date and to purchase extensions. Purchases may be made by check or money order. Credit card purchasing will be available shortly. (Note to installers: you may purchase Enlighten subscriptions from your distributor; please contact your distributor for appropriate pricing.)"

So you get 90 days, then you pay per panel. Recurring revenue stream, forward thinking indeed.


------


"Your claim is silly on its face - the capability for performance and output monitoring are going to be required for such systems to operate as part of a smart grid. These systems are designed with that in mind. It isn't complicated and you have provided no evidence that they were not designing with smart grid requirements in mind."

Of course they are gong to be required for such systems to operate as part of a smart grid, it's simple RMON IP capability that everything electronic has these days, new TV's have it, your broadband router has it, your cable box has it, and is being added to modern appliances of all sorts.

Remote monitoring is also required for me to monitor and manage 70 servers here in Dallas, that doesn't make my servers part of any smart grid.

An engine is necessary for an airplane, that doesn't mean a car with an engine is designed to fly.

All the evidence you need is quite clear that they were thinking about their own wallets and how to get you to pay them a subscription fee per panel every year forever, increasing their revenue. It's all in the fact they give you a 90 day trial for monitoring, and then cut you off if you don't start paying them a subscription on a per panel basis just as I initially suspected.

A subscription charged per panel for monitoring software they could have just as easily given you on a CD to install on your PC along with the product, or possibly even embedded within the device itself if it has enough memory.

Not sure I like that... was pointed at that exact issue, getting it yet moron?

God your thick. Show me any evidence whatsoever they had any thought of designing this with smart grid in mind, or even the word smart grid in any page on their site or any press release and not just a clever play to feed their bank account. You have shown zero evidence, I have shown direct quotes from the developer and the actual subscription terms from their site.

[kristopher]

39. You've shown squat and you are arguing against yourself.

You've been touting every demand side management device out there as "a smart grid" that you falsely believe already exists, yet you reject that this one particular piece of equipment (that is clearly designed with load management in mind) is intended to be part of the actual yet to be integrated future smart grid. It actually makes me dizzy...

That is a perfect example of ignorance blended with and ego trying to play catch-up.

[TxRider]

40. ROFL

I've just been educating you on the facts of current smart grid tech, and the facts of these panels that your posts show clearly you are totally ignorant of.

You should have a decent idea what they each are about now.


You still don't get it though, this panel system isn't a load to manage, and there's no management capability involved with it's monitoring system, it's simply the panel reporting it's output.

And it's not for a smart grid, it's to provide a permanent income to the panel manufacturer in the form of a subscription.

Millions of devices have remote monitoring and management, nothing to do with smart grid tech.

You are simply too technically backwards to comprehend the technical differences.

[kristopher]

41. More egoism eh?

You still don't get it though, this panel system isn't a load to manage, and there's no management capability involved with it's monitoring system, it's simply the panel reporting it's output.

Of course the panels are "a load to manage". Any generating source that is connected to the grid will be a load to manage when we've integrated it into a smart grid.

And it's not for a smart grid, it's to provide a permanent income to the panel manufacturer in the form of a subscription.

Are you taking lessons on logic from 'nnads? Making money on one use of a system doesn't disqualify it from being used for another use. In this case there is GOING TO BE a requirement for panels that can integrate into the load management side of the grid. Designing that capability into the system and making a buck on it in another way is simply good business sense.

Millions of devices have remote monitoring and management, nothing to do with smart grid tech.
Well that certainly isn't what you said before. In fact, I've had to explain exactly that to you several times. When grid connected equipment is integrated with load and storage, they WILL BE working elements of a smart grid, but for now they are just isolated demand side management programs

[TxRider]

42. Looks like you need more schooling

"Of course the panels are "a load to manage". Any generating source that is connected to the grid will be a load to manage when we've integrated it into a smart grid."

The PV panel is not a "load" at all, loads consume energy, they do not produce it. Balancing loads is balancing the demand for consumption by devices. An Air conditioning system is a load, remotely managing it is managing a load.

-----

"Are you taking lessons on logic from 'nnads? Making money on one use of a system doesn't disqualify it from being used for another use. In this case there is GOING TO BE a requirement for panels that can integrate into the load management side of the grid. Designing that capability into the system and making a buck on it in another way is simply good business sense."

Yes there is going to be, in fact already is, a requirement for panels that can integrate into the management side of a smart grid, unfortunately these specific panels and their gateway are not capable of this function.

It requires two way communication to the system, and management capabilities built into the inverter system that simply do not exist in these panels. If you had any clue about electrical grids and load/demand management concepts you would have realized this from my earlier explanations.

If you had even a modicum of knowledge you would have realized they actually constitute a direct threat to the load management side of the grid. The capability needed to integrate into the load management side of a grid is absent from these devices... And as an internet armchair jockey your too ignorant to even see it and just keep on ranting your ridiculous egoistic crap.

-----

"Millions of devices have remote monitoring and management, nothing to do with smart grid tech."
"Well that certainly isn't what you said before. In fact, I've had to explain exactly that to you several times. When grid connected equipment is integrated with load and storage, they WILL BE working elements of a smart grid, but for now they are just isolated demand side management programs"

It certainly is what I said before, I build networked distributed systems for a living. You haven't explained anything at all, you have had to have every little detail explained to you from the fact that a city exists with a smart grid deployed and 100% smart meters remote monitoring of every single household's usage in real time, as well as 25% of AC thermostats remotely managed by the grid operator turned on and off and temperature set remotely by the utility. You had no clue.

In a city with 100% smart meters, and 25% of thermostats remotely managed, the grid operator sensing peak demands, and remotely simultaneously adjusting 80,000 thermostats 5 degrees warmer on a summer day ARE working elements of a smart grid TODAY.

-----

Since your obviously too ignorant of even basic smart grid technology and issues, I'll educate you a little bit more.

You claimed that this panel system is....

"That is why they are set up with the monitoring package - long term advance planning. It is simply good business sense to design the capability into such a system now instead of waiting and having to redesign and retrofit later.

Now here is reality.

This is a dumb system with one way communication with no capability to be controlled by a utility, it is equipped with a simple "non islanding" protection circuit that simply disconnects and stops outputting power if it senses grid voltage or frequency is out of spec.

Meaning the inverter simply shuts off power to the grid if it senses voltage or frequency that is out of spec and literally dumps the entire load the house is drawing onto the grid instantaneously.

Lets assume these sell extremely well, and a small city's homes are 20% powered by these panels on a hot summer day.

If homes on a grid were receiving say 20% of their power from these panels, any blip in voltage or frequency could cause grid instability or start a cascading failure chain, which nobody could stop.

Any grid voltage sag would trigger a significant number of these panels simply shut off en masse, instantly increasing grid load with an instantaneous 20% load spike, causing more extreme voltage fluctuations over a wider grid area and more inverters to shut off, etc. etc. No communication capability exists in these panels to communicate with the inverters and tell them to shut down, or tell them not to shut down remotely from a utility.

Not to mention lack of storage capability, and the associated implications for a smart grid that lack of both local and remote storage management integration in the inverters represents.

If this were truly designed with the long term planning and capabilities for smart grid integration it would have the capacity to be utility controlled, so the grid could communicate to the inverter to shut off in case of grid faults or to ride out voltage sags and be able to be manipulated to prevent transients in changing load conditions. The very basics of what the grid will need if we approach more then 10% PV distributed generation levels.


So your statement...

"It is simply good business sense to design the capability into such a system now instead of waiting and having to redesign and retrofit later.

Is 110% BS, just an ignorant egoistic rant.

There are systems with this type of planning and design going on, this panel system is not it. These panels will have to be replaced or the inverters retrofitted to be integrated into any smart grid as part of it's distributed power management system.

Getting it yet? Or do I need to school you further in remote power management -basics-??

[kristopher]

43. I stopped with the first line...

I wrote: "Of course the panels are "a load to manage". Any generating source that is connected to the grid will be a load to manage when we've integrated it into a smart grid."

You wrote:
The PV panel is not a "load" at all, loads consume energy, they do not produce it. Balancing loads is balancing the demand for consumption by devices. An Air conditioning system is a load, remotely managing it is managing a load.


http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=define%3A+load&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Definitions of load on the Web:

* weight to be borne or conveyed
* a quantity that can be processed or transported at one time; "the system broke down under excessive loads"
* cargo: goods carried by a large vehicle
* an amount of alcohol sufficient to intoxicate; "he got a load on and started a brawl"
* fill or place a load on; "load a car"; "load the truck with hay"
* the power output of a generator or power plant
* provide (a device) with something necessary; "He loaded his gun carefully"; "load the camera"
* burden: an onerous or difficult concern; "the burden of responsibility"; "that's a load off my mind"
* transfer from a storage device to a computer's memory
* lode: a deposit of valuable ore occurring within definite boundaries separating it from surrounding rocks
* put (something) on a structure or conveyance; "load the bags onto the trucks"
* warhead: the front part of a guided missile or rocket or torpedo that carries the nuclear or explosive charge or the chemical or biological agents
* corrupt, debase, or make impure by adding a foreign or inferior substance; often by replacing valuable ingredients with inferior ones; "adulterate liquor"
* electrical device to which electrical power is delivered

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


A person who works with a/c or washing mchines will most often refer to /load/ as related to a device, those who usually work with the grid and more escalated conceptualizations of the energy system usually see it in terms of generation - as in /base/ + /load/.

[TxRider]

44. Of course you did

Because if you had read further you would have embarrassed yourself, so you hide in a meaningless terminology trifle and ignore the reality that these panels are anything but smart grid ready.

Here is a simple description of electrical load that clears up your confusion Padawan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_load

[kristopher]

45. It isn't meaningless.

It is a fundamental bit of knowledge, the fact that you don't properly understand such basic concepts as /baseload energy/ means your understanding of more complex arrangements like a smart grid cannot be sufficient to inform your discussion.

You're a bright guy and I admire your zeal in educating yourself - I can recognize an effective learning strategy when I see it; but, I'd suggest that the mental model you end up with is going to be too shallow to build on. For example, the final iteration of your proposed "series hybrid" is fatally flawed but I'm not going to go through an antagonistic back and forth to help you appreciate why. Since I have that knowledge and you don't your approach makes you the loser.

But it is your choice - more formal study also comes with considerable opportunity costs.

[TxRider]

47. It is in your usage

The common term is baseload demand.

In other words, the minimum amount of power needed to satisfy the load demand.

A term you seem unfamiliar with by your description.

And you ignoring the fact that a dumb inverter with only a simple anti island system is a threat to any grid smart or not, and not something capable of smart integration is simply stunning.

Keep squirming away from the facts caveman.

[kristopher]

49. Right...

I wrote: "Of course the panels are "a load to manage". Any generating source that is connected to the grid will be a load to manage when we've integrated it into a smart grid."

You wrote:
The PV panel is not a "load" at all, loads consume energy, they do not produce it. Balancing loads is balancing the demand for consumption by devices. An Air conditioning system is a load, remotely managing it is managing a load.


http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=define%3A+load&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Definitions of load on the Web:

* weight to be borne or conveyed
* a quantity that can be processed or transported at one time; "the system broke down under excessive loads"
* cargo: goods carried by a large vehicle
* an amount of alcohol sufficient to intoxicate; "he got a load on and started a brawl"
* fill or place a load on; "load a car"; "load the truck with hay"
* the power output of a generator or power plant
* provide (a device) with something necessary; "He loaded his gun carefully"; "load the camera"
* burden: an onerous or difficult concern; "the burden of responsibility"; "that's a load off my mind"
* transfer from a storage device to a computer's memory
* lode: a deposit of valuable ore occurring within definite boundaries separating it from surrounding rocks
* put (something) on a structure or conveyance; "load the bags onto the trucks"
* warhead: the front part of a guided missile or rocket or torpedo that carries the nuclear or explosive charge or the chemical or biological agents
* corrupt, debase, or make impure by adding a foreign or inferior substance; often by replacing valuable ingredients with inferior ones; "adulterate liquor"
* electrical device to which electrical power is delivered

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


A person who works with a/c or washing mchines will most often refer to /load/ as related to a device, those who usually work with the grid and more escalated conceptualizations of the energy system usually see it in terms of generation - as in /base/ + /load/.

[TxRider]

50. Yes right

baseload, base load, baseload demand

Most commonly referred to as baseload demand, this is the minimum amount of power that a utility or distribution company must make available to its customers, or the amount of power required to meet minimum demands based on reasonable expectations of customer requirements. Baseload values typically vary from hour to hour in most commercial and industrial areas.

http://www.energyvortex.com/energydictionary/baseload__base_load__baseload_demand.html

The generator is not a load, it -has- a load.

This load is expressed as a value, the generators load.

The minimum amount of power a generator has to supply to satisfy the load is a value expressed as it's baseload.

Geez.

[TxRider]

51. Now back on topic.

You claimed that this panel system is....

"That is why they are set up with the monitoring package - long term advance planning. It is simply good business sense to design the capability into such a system now instead of waiting and having to redesign and retrofit later.

Now here is reality.

This is a dumb system with one way communication with no capability to be controlled by a utility, it is equipped with a simple "non islanding" protection circuit that simply disconnects and stops outputting power if it senses grid voltage or frequency is out of spec.

Meaning the inverter simply shuts off power to the grid if it senses voltage or frequency that is out of spec and literally dumps the entire load the house is drawing onto the grid instantaneously.

Lets assume these sell extremely well, and a small city's homes are 20% powered by these panels on a hot summer day.

If homes on a grid were receiving say 20% of their power from these panels, any blip in voltage or frequency could cause grid instability or start a cascading failure chain, which nobody could stop.

Any grid voltage sag would trigger a significant number of these panels simply shut off en masse, instantly increasing grid load with an instantaneous 20% load spike, causing more extreme voltage fluctuations over a wider grid area and more inverters to shut off, etc. etc. No communication capability exists in these panels to communicate with the inverters and tell them to shut down, or tell them not to shut down remotely from a utility.

Not to mention lack of storage capability, and the associated implications for a smart grid that lack of both local and remote storage management integration in the inverters represents.

If this were truly designed with the long term planning and capabilities for smart grid integration it would have the capacity to be utility controlled, so the grid could communicate to the inverter to shut off in case of grid faults or to ride out voltage sags and be able to be manipulated to prevent transients in changing load conditions. The very basics of what the grid will need if we approach more then 10% PV distributed generation levels.


So your statement...

"It is simply good business sense to design the capability into such a system now instead of waiting and having to redesign and retrofit later.

Is 110% BS, just an ignorant egoistic rant.

There are systems with this type of planning and design going on, this panel system is not it. These panels will have to be replaced or the inverters retrofitted to be integrated into any smart grid as part of it's distributed power management system.

Getting it yet? Or do I need to school you further in remote power management -basics-??

[kristopher]

52. Right...

I wrote: "Of course the panels are "a load to manage". Any generating source that is connected to the grid will be a load to manage when we've integrated it into a smart grid."

You wrote:
The PV panel is not a "load" at all, loads consume energy, they do not produce it. Balancing loads is balancing the demand for consumption by devices. An Air conditioning system is a load, remotely managing it is managing a load.


http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=define%3A+load&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Definitions of load on the Web:

* weight to be borne or conveyed
* a quantity that can be processed or transported at one time; "the system broke down under excessive loads"
* cargo: goods carried by a large vehicle
* an amount of alcohol sufficient to intoxicate; "he got a load on and started a brawl"
* fill or place a load on; "load a car"; "load the truck with hay"
* the power output of a generator or power plant
* provide (a device) with something necessary; "He loaded his gun carefully"; "load the camera"
* burden: an onerous or difficult concern; "the burden of responsibility"; "that's a load off my mind"
* transfer from a storage device to a computer's memory
* lode: a deposit of valuable ore occurring within definite boundaries separating it from surrounding rocks
* put (something) on a structure or conveyance; "load the bags onto the trucks"
* warhead: the front part of a guided missile or rocket or torpedo that carries the nuclear or explosive charge or the chemical or biological agents
* corrupt, debase, or make impure by adding a foreign or inferior substance; often by replacing valuable ingredients with inferior ones; "adulterate liquor"
* electrical device to which electrical power is delivered

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


A person who works with a/c or washing mchines will most often refer to /load/ as related to a device, those who usually work with the grid and more escalated conceptualizations of the energy system usually see it in terms of generation - as in /base/ + /load/.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=224464&mesg_id=225101

[TxRider]

53. Getting it yet?

You claimed that this panel system is....

"That is why they are set up with the monitoring package - long term advance planning. It is simply good business sense to design the capability into such a system now instead of waiting and having to redesign and retrofit later.

Now here is reality.

This is a dumb system with one way communication with no capability to be controlled by a utility, it is equipped with a simple "non islanding" protection circuit that simply disconnects and stops outputting power if it senses grid voltage or frequency is out of spec.

Meaning the inverter simply shuts off power to the grid if it senses voltage or frequency that is out of spec and literally dumps the entire load the house is drawing onto the grid instantaneously.

Lets assume these sell extremely well, and a small city's homes are 20% powered by these panels on a hot summer day.

If homes on a grid were receiving say 20% of their power from these panels, any blip in voltage or frequency could cause grid instability or start a cascading failure chain, which nobody could stop.

Any grid voltage sag would trigger a significant number of these panels simply shut off en masse, instantly increasing grid load with an instantaneous 20% load spike, causing more extreme voltage fluctuations over a wider grid area and more inverters to shut off, etc. etc. No communication capability exists in these panels to communicate with the inverters and tell them to shut down, or tell them not to shut down remotely from a utility.

Not to mention lack of storage capability, and the associated implications for a smart grid that lack of both local and remote storage management integration in the inverters represents.

If this were truly designed with the long term planning and capabilities for smart grid integration it would have the capacity to be utility controlled, so the grid could communicate to the inverter to shut off in case of grid faults or to ride out voltage sags and be able to be manipulated to prevent transients in changing load conditions. The very basics of what the grid will need if we approach more then 10% PV distributed generation levels.


So your statement...

"It is simply good business sense to design the capability into such a system now instead of waiting and having to redesign and retrofit later.

Is 110% BS, just an ignorant egoistic rant.

There are systems with this type of planning and design going on, this panel system is not it. These panels will have to be replaced or the inverters retrofitted to be integrated into any smart grid as part of it's distributed power management system.

Getting it yet? Or do I need to school you further in remote power management -basics-??

[kristopher]

54. Right...

I wrote: "Of course the panels are "a load to manage". Any generating source that is connected to the grid will be a load to manage when we've integrated it into a smart grid."

You wrote:
The PV panel is not a "load" at all, loads consume energy, they do not produce it. Balancing loads is balancing the demand for consumption by devices. An Air conditioning system is a load, remotely managing it is managing a load.


http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=define%3A+load&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Definitions of load on the Web:

* weight to be borne or conveyed
* a quantity that can be processed or transported at one time; "the system broke down under excessive loads"
* cargo: goods carried by a large vehicle
* an amount of alcohol sufficient to intoxicate; "he got a load on and started a brawl"
* fill or place a load on; "load a car"; "load the truck with hay"
* the power output of a generator or power plant
* provide (a device) with something necessary; "He loaded his gun carefully"; "load the camera"
* burden: an onerous or difficult concern; "the burden of responsibility"; "that's a load off my mind"
* transfer from a storage device to a computer's memory
* lode: a deposit of valuable ore occurring within definite boundaries separating it from surrounding rocks
* put (something) on a structure or conveyance; "load the bags onto the trucks"
* warhead: the front part of a guided missile or rocket or torpedo that carries the nuclear or explosive charge or the chemical or biological agents
* corrupt, debase, or make impure by adding a foreign or inferior substance; often by replacing valuable ingredients with inferior ones; "adulterate liquor"
* electrical device to which electrical power is delivered

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


A person who works with a/c or washing mchines will most often refer to /load/ as related to a device, those who usually work with the grid and more escalated conceptualizations of the energy system usually see it in terms of generation - as in /base/ + /load/.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=224464&mesg_id=225101

[TxRider]

55. So all your left with is a google cut and paste

A cut and paste from of one sentence google definition you don't even comprehend the meaning of.

And no response to the reality you were dead wrong about the panels being "smart grid integration ready"...

Such is the last refuge of an armchair internet jockey in over his head.

Later caveman..

[kristopher]

56. Right...

I wrote: "Of course the panels are "a load to manage". Any generating source that is connected to the grid will be a load to manage when we've integrated it into a smart grid."

You wrote:
The PV panel is not a "load" at all, loads consume energy, they do not produce it. Balancing loads is balancing the demand for consumption by devices. An Air conditioning system is a load, remotely managing it is managing a load.


http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=define%3A+load&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Definitions of load on the Web:

* weight to be borne or conveyed
* a quantity that can be processed or transported at one time; "the system broke down under excessive loads"
* cargo: goods carried by a large vehicle
* an amount of alcohol sufficient to intoxicate; "he got a load on and started a brawl"
* fill or place a load on; "load a car"; "load the truck with hay"
* the power output of a generator or power plant
* provide (a device) with something necessary; "He loaded his gun carefully"; "load the camera"
* burden: an onerous or difficult concern; "the burden of responsibility"; "that's a load off my mind"
* transfer from a storage device to a computer's memory
* lode: a deposit of valuable ore occurring within definite boundaries separating it from surrounding rocks
* put (something) on a structure or conveyance; "load the bags onto the trucks"
* warhead: the front part of a guided missile or rocket or torpedo that carries the nuclear or explosive charge or the chemical or biological agents
* corrupt, debase, or make impure by adding a foreign or inferior substance; often by replacing valuable ingredients with inferior ones; "adulterate liquor"
* electrical device to which electrical power is delivered

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A person who works with a/c or washing mchines will most often refer to /load/ as related to a device, those who usually work with the grid and more escalated conceptualizations of the energy system usually see it in terms of generation - as in /base/ + /load/.

[joshcryer]

57. Thanks for alerting me to these, seemingly IP based panels. Will avoid them.

Amusing how you got caught in a circular loop with our local copy-paste bot. Don't worry, I do the same thing.

[TxRider]

58. It's ok, It's kinda funny

When a google warrior starts accusing people of being a google warrior.

I like the panels design principle, but the subscription for monitoring is a bit much.

It isn't necessary though, there is a web server built into the unit, it's just rather sparse and you only get raw text data and not pretty graphics.

The only people it presents a real issue for is people who want to be off grid.

The tech savvy can make their own pretty monitoring system for it.

It is great for it's intended purpose, a very easy to install plug and play system that anyone who can install a breaker in a panel can install to gain market penetration. Nice execution of that goal IMO.

[madokie]

59. And that is the important part

It is great for it's intended purpose, a very easy to install plug and play system that anyone who can install a breaker in a panel can install to gain market penetration.

[conscious evolution]

46. South Carolina had it in the early eighties

The electrical contractor I worked for at the time got the contract to install the controllers.Granted,they were pretty simple and not very 'smart' but they did allow the power company to turn on and off water heaters and AC units at peak hours if the grid demand became to high.
Personally,I don't care much for the new smart meters the utilitys are installing.They allow the utility co to tell haow much power a building uses on an hour by hour basis instead of how much is being used on a monthly basis.This ability will allow power companies to have different rates for differant times of the day.People will end up being charged more for power for cooking dinner than for a late breakfast.

[kristopher]

14. This is the system I'm waiting for...

Look carefully at the photo and note that it is a set of tubes, not panels:

http://www.solyndra.com/Products/PV-Systems

The best information can be found reading their history through press releases.
http://www.solyndra.com/News/

[NNadir]

24. Um, you're waiting?

I think you've been here for a couple of years telling us all how wonderful solar is.

You mean you don't already have a huge system?

Um, while you've been "waiting" how many tons do you think, of dangerous fossil fuel waste have you released?

[joshcryer]

16. One step closer to solar shingles. But, alas, still quite a far way away.

[kristopher]

17. They make solar shingles.

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/dow-unveils-solar-shingles/

[TxRider]

20. I wouldn't call them ready for prime time yet though

The most exciting news I have heard recently is new cells that can make power from a wider frequency range of light than current cells do, possibly 3-4x the power per square meter.

That alone would tip the scales in my book, everything else remaining the same. Cost per watt per sq meter is the issue, once either power output goes up by 2x+ or price comes down by about 1/2 or more, it's going get real nice for solar.

I think it'll likely happen within the next 5 years.

[joshcryer]

25. Context = solar shingles at same cost as regular shingles.

Sitting on a Lowes shelf that any small time contractor (and in the summer they are everywhere) can knock on doors and bid to install on peoples houses.

Will be an amazing time in our history when that is possible.

[tinrobot]

22. Do they qualify for tax credits/rebates?

Many states/municipalities offer significant incentives to install home solar.

If these panels qualified, the rebate could make them pretty competitive.

[kristopher]

26. I just glanced at that section of their website.

It seemed pretty deep and thoroughly explored all available incentives, but I don't know how many states the company is doing business in.

[TxRider]

28. I'm sure they do

But it may require it be installed by a certified company.

It varies a lot from place to place, best to check with your city and state and power company.

[conscious evolution]

48. They should

The research I have done on solar does not seem to make any distinction between AC or DC solar.
Some states,however,require a minimum size in output to qualify.Georgia,for example,requires a minimum of 1.5 Kw output up to a maximum of 10.5Kw.
Many states also require the system to be grid tied.Sounds like these panels meet that qualification.