Climate Change Denier - proving his case?

[upi402]

*After calling me names instead of refuting my support, and trying to sidetrack the debate - these climate change deniers may have proved a point against climate change regarding Antarctic ice.*
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You stated:
QUOTE
Antarctic ice is not growing -that's just false

Not according to The National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC). Their most recent report (March 3rd) states:
QUOTE
"Overall, the Antarctic is showing small positive trends in total extent. For example, the trend in February extent is now +3.1% per decade."


You might do better if you read what the scientists are currently saying rather than rehashing tired old factoids from the Global Warming Alarmist's Toytown Book of Rubbish.
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*God I hope these guys are wrong. Anyone know if that is valid?*


My support, in part;
The Antarctic ice sheet is really 3 areas; east, west, and Antarctic peninsula. The west and peninsular areas are losing ice. The east area is unchanged, or growing a bit - most studies show.

[petronius]

1. Was this supposed to be a reply somewhere?

:shrug:

[upi402]

2. I was tired of seeing these climate change deniers bully other posters on another forum

So I posted this, which was refuted as above;

Antarctic ice is not growing -that's just false. The Antarctic ice sheet is really 3 areas; east, west, and Antarctic peninsula. The west and peninsular areas are losing ice. The east area is unchanged, or growing a bit - most studies show.

Senator James Inhofe (R-Okla) (climate change denier) published a report with the headline: "Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007." Inhofe was citing Duncan Wingham who said the Antarctic ice sheet if growing. For only the eastern area is this true or partly true. And he fails to mention that the increased snowfall in that area is induced by climate change. Wingham said parts of the Antarctic ice sheet are growing, and that must have been missed.

That was in 2007 too IIRC. And many of his "prominent scientists" are actually just economists, unknowns, unpublished, and hired-gun climate change deniers. Things are heating up. It's getting hot in here.

journal Science, Antarctic Ice Sheet Is Melting

World's largest ice sheet melting faster than expected
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 22 November 2009 18.00 GMT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009...-ice-sheet-nasa

The East Antarctic ice sheet, which makes up three-quarters of the continent's 14,000 sq km, is losing around 57bn tonnes of ice a year into surrounding waters, according to a satellite survey of the region.

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Collapse Of Antarctic Ice Sheet Would Likely Put Washington, D.C. Largely Underwater
ScienceDaily (Feb. 6, 2009)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90205142132.htm

The catastrophic increase in sea level, already projected to average between 16 and 17 feet around the world, would be almost 21 feet in such places as Washington, D.C., scientists say, putting it largely underwater. Many coastal areas would be devastated.

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Melting of West Antarctic Ice Sheet may affect Earth's rotation
May 22, 2009
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/272938

A study in the journal Science has found that the melting of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet would change the focus of the planet's gravitational field and sea levels would rise disproportionately around North America and the Indian Ocean.
The West Antarctic Ice Sheet, along with the East Antarctic Ice Sheet and Greenland, is one of the three great ice sheets of the world. Of the three, the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is believed to be the most unstable, because much of its base rests on rock that is below sea level. It’s thought that this fact makes it vulnerable to melting and relatively rapid disintegration.

[OKIsItJustMe]

3. Press Release - Lasers from space show thinning of Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets

http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/press/press_releases/press_release.php?id=989

Press Release - Lasers from space show thinning of Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets

Issue date: 23 Sep 2009
Number: 09/2009

The most comprehensive picture of the rapidly thinning glaciers along the coastline of both the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets has been created using satellite lasers. The findings are an important step forward in the quest to make more accurate predictions for future sea level rise.

...

The authors conclude that this ‘dynamic thinning’ of glaciers now reaches all latitudes in Greenland, has intensified on key Antarctic coastlines, is penetrating far into the ice sheets’ interior and is spreading as ice shelves thin by ocean-driven melt. Ice shelf collapse has triggered particularly strong thinning that has endured for decades.

...

New comprehensive maps of Greenland and Antarctica show extent of glacier thinning - copyright BAS

...

[Birthmark]

4. Extent

Take a blob of peanut butter on a knife. Carefully measure how wide it is. Now spread it on a piece of bread. Measure again. Congratulations! You've greatly increased it's extent...but there isn't any more peanut butter.

Now use less peanut butter and try the same thing. You'll find that you can have just as great an extent with LESS peanut butter. This is what is happening in Antarctica.

Antarctica is clearly losing its peanut butter, er, ice.

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2009/2009GL040222.shtml
http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v1/n2/abs/ngeo102.html

[upi402]

5. Thanks so much folks!

I was getting knee deep in google mud and getting nowhere. This helps a buttload <--which is an actual unit of measure for climate change deniers.

[Birthmark]

6. No problem.

Facts won't help with a denialist, of course. But it's nice to know you're right. :)

[upi402]

7. At least someone challenged these guys

and they've returned to just name-calling and smearing my posting method. I call that a budding win for mother earth!

Debunking junk science sites are harder to find than the debunking global warming ones.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11462

[Birthmark]

8. I have an extensive (get it?) set of bookmarks

...just for the purpose of the science deniers. It's mainly AGW and evolution, of course. But there's a smattering of other stuff in there, too.

A few of the most useful:
http://www.talkorigins.org/ (evolution)
http://www.pandasthumb.org/ (evolution)
http://www.badastronomy.com/ (general science)
http://www.realclimate.org/ (THE authoritative climate change site)
http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php (common denialist arguments refuted)
http://tamino.wordpress.com (climate change)

And you can PM anytime. I may not know the answer off the top of my head, but I by god know where to find the answer. :)

[upi402]

12. bookmarked! And one from a DUer's sig line

http://zbob.net/climatechange/
Starting a file again, thanks for those.
These guys were such bullies it just renewed me- after years of knowing it was pointless and letting them go.

[Chemisse]

9. Perhaps that is simple enough for the deniers to understand nt

[Birthmark]

10. If I could work in...

...beer, breasts, NASCAR, and wrestling somehow, I'm sure they'd get it.

[Chemisse]

11. ROFL - great plan! nt

[jman0]

13. more ice

Actually, i've read there IS more ice forming however it is NOT a result of COOLING.
This is site that debunks the deniers and it takes aim at the denier article.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/Watts-Up-With-That-ignorance-regarding-Antarctic-sea-ice.html
Scientific Peer-Reviewed papers sourced and linked.


If the Southern Ocean is warming, why is sea ice increasing? There are several contributing factors. One is the drop in ozone levels over Antarctica. The hole in the ozone layer above the South Pole has caused cooling in the stratosphere (Gillet 2003). A side-effect is a strengthening of the cyclonic winds that circle the Antarctic continent (Thompson 2002). The wind pushes sea ice around, creating areas of open water known as polynyas. More polynyas leads to increased sea ice production (Turner 2009).

Another contributor is changes in ocean circulation. The Southern Ocean consists of a layer of cold water near the surface and a layer of warmer water below. Water from the warmer layer rises up to the surface, melting sea ice. However, as air temperatures warm, the amount of rain and snowfall also increases. This freshens the surface waters, leading to a surface layer less dense than the saltier, warmer water below. The layers become more stratified and mix less. Less heat is transported upwards from the deeper, warmer layer. Hence less sea ice is melted (Zhang 2007).

[Viking12]

14. You're both right, sort of.

On the surface, it looks like the denier is referring to Antarctic sea ice, which has been increasing to a small degree at certain time of the year.

Meanwhile, you are referring to land ice, which is decreasing in mass as you've identified.