Whackjobs cheer N.Korea's nuclear weapons program

[bananas]

I can't believe it, there's actually an internet message board where whackjobs are cheering for North Korea's nuclear weapons program.
:puke:

[jpak]

1. Our Dear Leader is pleased

yup

:nuke:

[joshcryer]

2. Link?

[txlibdem]

3. And the LACK of nuclear weapons was so good for others

Iraq, Afghanistan, Haiti, Venezuela, Honduras, Bolivia, Chile, El Salvador, Fiji, Grenada, ...

Read the entire (long, long) list of CIA backed coups here:
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa01.html

Haiti is such terrible shape after their earthquake because the US spent years destabilizing their country by backing right wing death squads, then the CIA overthrew their democratically elected government and installed a puppet regime in 2004.

Here's an account of the removal of Haiti's duly elected President:

USA forces kidnap the elected president of Haiti, Jean-Bertrand Aristide after destabilising the country and strangling the economy with sanctions and supporting an insurgency. When asked by Eliott C. McLaughlin of Associated Press, if he left Haiti voluntarily, Aristade's reply was:
"No. I was forced to leave. Agents were telling me that if I don't leave they would start shooting and killing in a matter of time."

The USA says it escorted the president out of the country. At the airport he handed a letter of resignation to Luis Moreno, the deputy chief of the USA embassy.
Father Michael Graves, a USA born preacher who has worked in Haiti for 18 years contradicted this account, saying that the president was escorted out of the country at gunpoint after being forced to sign his resignation: "I am outraged that the US has stepped into a sovereign country, a fledgling democracy, and forced out a leader who was elected."

http://www.krysstal.com/display_acts.php?article=2004_haiti

CIA involved in Guatemala coup, 1954

At the end of May, the Central Intelligence Agency declassified 1,400 pages of reports on the 1954 coup it engineered in Guatemala to remove president Jacobo Arbenz from office. Arbenz became a target of U.S. imperialism for threatening to carry out modest land reforms against the interests of produce giant, United Fruit Company. In 1952, U.S. president Harry Truman gave the secret police approval to begin shipping guns and money to opposition forces and training mercenaries.

The released documents show that CIA cops trained assassins to kill 58 people put on a "disposal list." They include a 22-page how-to manual on murder. Secret intelligence officials claim none of the missions were carried out. The list of CIA targets were also subjected to "nerve war," which included death threats, phone calls "preferably between 2 and 5 A.M.," frame-ups, and other forms of intimidation. Less than 1 percent of the CIA files on the Guatemala coup were included in the declassification, with many details blacked out.

http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/guatemala.html

A Timeline of CIA Atrocities

By Steve Kangas

CIA operations follow the same recurring script. First, American business interests abroad are threatened by a popular or democratically elected leader. The people support their leader because he intends to conduct land reform, strengthen unions, redistribute wealth, nationalize foreign-owned industry, and regulate business to protect workers, consumers and the environment. So, on behalf of American business, and often with their help, the CIA mobilizes the opposition. First it identifies right-wing groups within the country (usually the military), and offers them a deal: "We'll put you in power if you maintain a favorable business climate for us." The Agency then hires, trains and works with them to overthrow the existing government (usually a democracy). It uses every trick in the book: propaganda, stuffed ballot boxes, purchased elections, extortion, blackmail, sexual intrigue, false stories about opponents in the local media, infiltration and disruption of opposing political parties, kidnapping, beating, torture, intimidation, economic sabotage, death squads and even assassination. These efforts culminate in a military coup, which installs a right-wing dictator. The CIA trains the dictator’s security apparatus to crack down on the traditional enemies of big business, using interrogation, torture and murder. The victims are said to be "communists," but almost always they are just peasants, liberals, moderates, labor union leaders, political opponents and advocates of free speech and democracy. Widespread human rights abuses follow.

This scenario has been repeated so many times that the CIA actually teaches it in a special school, the notorious "School of the Americas." (It opened in Panama but later moved to Fort Benning, Georgia.) Critics have nicknamed it the "School of the Dictators" and "School of the Assassins." Here, the CIA trains Latin American military officers how to conduct coups, including the use of interrogation, torture and murder.

The Association for Responsible Dissent estimates that by 1987, 6 million people had died as a result of CIA covert operations. (2) Former State Department official William Blum correctly calls this an "American Holocaust."

The CIA justifies these actions as part of its war against communism. But most coups do not involve a communist threat. Unlucky nations are targeted for a wide variety of reasons: not only threats to American business interests abroad, but also liberal or even moderate social reforms, political instability, the unwillingness of a leader to carry out Washington’s dictates, and declarations of neutrality in the Cold War. Indeed, nothing has infuriated CIA Directors quite like a nation’s desire to stay out of the Cold War.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html

So, in summary, do you think I'm crying little alligator tears because North Korea has nuclear weapons? Or am I saddened, instead, because the 20 or 30 countries on the list of CIA coups DO NOT have any nuclear weapons. Maybe a portion of those 6 million people might not have died if their countries had had nukes when the Corporate money started rolling in to fund the death squads and rebel armies just because those people had the AUDACITY to elect leaders who voice opinions counter to the interests of big corporations.

[RZM]

5. So your point is?

Nuclear proliferation is a good thing because it keeps the CIA off of your back?

[txlibdem]

6. My point seems pretty clear

You actually have to READ the comment to fully appreciate the facts contained therein, however.

6 Million people have died as of 1987. Pretty clear impetus, seems to me. I wish every country in this hemisphere gets nukes. That'll shut the CIA-backed murder squads down. Or is it ok to murder 6,000,000 of "those brown people" in your view, just as long as it doesn't get on the evening news?

[joshcryer]

9. There is nuclear sharing, where nuclear states give nuclear bombs to other states for deterrance.

It's entirely confined to EU though. If the US were to share nukes with some South American countries it could be interesting.

[RZM]

13. I did read it

And little there was news to me, except of course the 6 million figure, which I don't buy for one second. Actually I suspect it's been arrived at in a subtle attempt to link the scale of US crimes to that of the holocaust. But defend it if you like.

And N. Korea is not in this hemisphere, though I suspect you knew that. Clearly you don't have much interest in N. Korea, seeing as you have hardly mentioned it in this thread.

So nuclear proliferation is a good thing then? I'm no so sure, but others have made that argument, though usually not on the grounds of defending the world against the rapacious US. From what I know, it's often advanced as a means of promoting stability between states that might engage in large and costly conventional wars otherwise -- with India and Pakistan a prime example.

[XemaSab]

15. We're both in the Northern Hemisphere

:P

[joshcryer]

16. Hemisphere refers to any half of the planet.

Commonly north and south but not necessarily.

[txlibdem]

19. My usage of the term 'Hemisphere' is accurate

"The Western Hemisphere, also Western hemisphere<1> or western hemisphere,<2> is a geographical term for the half of the Earth that lies west of the Prime Meridian (which crosses Greenwich, London, United Kingdom), the other half being the eastern hemisphere.<3> It is also used, mainly in North America, to specifically refer to the Americas (or the New World) and adjacent waters, while excluding other territories that lie geographically in Western Hemisphere (parts of Africa, Europe, Antarctica, and Asia); thus, it is sometimes referred to as the American hemisphere.<4>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere

[txlibdem]

17. North Korea not in this hemisphere

Yes, I think we both know that little tidbit. Does that change the fact that either "Dubya" or some lunatic in the CIA would have started hostilities with N. Korea long before now were it not for the fact that they have a nuclear bomb? I do not think so but perhaps you haven't been listening to the escalating rhetoric over the past decades. In my view, their exact geographic location is inconsequential.

My argument in favor of all countries in this hemisphere having nuclear weapons hinges on the example of North Korea. I'm not sure how you could have read into it that I have little interest in N. Korea when they are a linchpin of my argument.

As to the 6 million deaths figure, you can quibble with that. Would it be less offensive to you if it were only 5 million "brown people," or perhaps you would stop caring if only 4 million brown people were killed as a result of US coups and funding of rebel armies in opposition to their Democratically elected governments. Would you BEGIN to care if it were 7 million? 8? 9? Where is the number that engages your empathy for people who died for no other reason than that they voted to go against the economic interests of one or more corporations?

For me, that number is 0 because I hate the evil that corporations are doing right here in the USA, let alone the fact that even a single person has died to further their profits in other countries. Over 40,000 people die right here in the US each and every year to further the profits of the health insurance industry and/or hospitals who don't want to lose money by providing "those people" with adequate care. Does that strike a nerve? I only ask because you come off as a bit callous about the deaths and other facts presented and chose to dedicate your post to challenging the 6 million figure and then poo-pooing the well documented atrocities of the US against our neighbors in South and Central America.

[bananas]

14. "I wish every country in this hemisphere gets nukes."

What about the other hemisphere?

[txlibdem]

18. I am admittedly biased toward "the Americas" no?

You are right in stating that CIA atrocities have not been limited to South America or Central America, but the frequency and severity of the US' crimes against those areas are positively staggering. My opinion is that there were few "prying eyes" that could bring our actions into the light of day in South and Central America. We were far more constrained in Europe but the coup in Laos is equally disgusting.

The US' empire needs to die. If every nation in Central and South America had nukes we would think twice before trying to destabilize or attack them. I encourage every nation with nuclear weapons to begin supplying those nations with "the bomb" on a humanitarian basis immediately. The CIA needs to be investigated and all persons involved in these actions need to be jailed immediately. There is no second option. Justice. Or no justice.

[txlibdem]

4. Banana massacre, 1928

Banana massacre

One of the most notorious strikes by United Fruit workers broke out on 12 November 1928 on the Caribbean coast of Colombia, near Santa Marta. On 6 December, Colombian Army troops under the command of General Cortés Vargas opened fire on a crowd of strikers gathered in the central square of the town of Ciénaga. Estimates of the number of casualties vary from 47 to 2000. The military justified this action by claiming that the strike was subversive and its organizers were Communist revolutionaries. Congressman Jorge Eliécer Gaitán claimed that the army had acted under instructions from the United Fruit Company. The ensuing scandal contributed to President Miguel Abadía Méndez's Conservative Party being voted out of office in 1930, putting an end to 44 years of Conservative rule in Colombia. The first novel of Álvaro Cepeda Samudio, La Casa Grande, focuses on this event, and the author himself grew up in close proximity to the incident. The climax of García Márquez's novel One Hundred Years of Solitude is based on the events in Ciénaga, though the author himself has acknowledged that the death toll of 3,000 that he gives there is greatly inflated.<12>

General Cortés Vargas, who issued the order to shoot, argued later that he had issued the order because he had information that U.S. boats were poised to land troops on Colombian coasts to defend American personnel and the interests of the United Fruit Company. Vargas issued the order so the US would not invade Colombia. This position was strongly criticized in the Senate, especially by Jorge Eliécer Gaitán, who argued that those same bullets should have been used to stop the foreign invader.

The telegram from Bogotá Embassy to the U.S. Secretary of State, dated December 5, 1928, stated: “I have been following Santa Marta fruit strike through United Fruit Company representative here; also through Minister of Foreign Affairs who on Saturday told me government would send additional troops and would arrest all strike leaders and transport them to prison at Cartagena; that government would give adequate protection to American interests involved.”<13>

The telegram from Bogotá Embassy to Secretary of State, date December 7, 1928, stated: “Situation outside Santa Marta City unquestionably very serious: outside zone is in revolt; military who have orders "not to spare ammunition" have already killed and wounded about fifty strikers. Government now talks of general offensive against strikers as soon as all troopships now on the way arrive early next week.”<14>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company#Banana_massacre

I'm so happy that Columbia didn't have any nuclear weapons, or an armed forces strong enough to repel the US invaders waiting off their coast.

[kristopher]

7. Kicked for visibility...

Wow.

[joshcryer]

8. OP doesn't include a link, what forum are they referring to?

[kristopher]

10. Really...

Just "Wow!"

[joshcryer]

11. I wish I knew what forum you guys were referring to. It's not E&E.

[XemaSab]

12. I, too, would appreciate a link

:shrug: