The New Light Bulbs Lose a Little Shine

[phantom power]

CFL longevity (or lack of it) has been a pet peeve of mine since they came out. I don't think I've ever gotten 5 years out of a CFL, much less 7 or 9.

California's utilities are spending $548 million over seven years to subsidize consumer purchases of compact fluorescent lamps. But the benefits are turning out to be less than expected.

One reason is bulbs have gotten so cheap that Californians buy more than they need and sock them away for future use. Another reason is the bulbs are burning out faster than expected.

...

As a result of these and other adjustments, energy savings attributed to PG&E were pegged at 451.6 million kilowatt hours by regulators, or 73% less than the 1.7 billion kilowatt hours projected by PG&E for 2006-2008.

One hitch was the compact-fluorescent burnout rate. When PG&E began its 2006-2008 program, it figured the useful life of each bulb would be 9.4 years. Now, with experience, it has cut the estimate to 6.3 years, which limits the energy savings. Field tests show higher burnout rates in certain locations, such as bathrooms and in recessed lighting. Turning them on and off a lot also appears to impair longevity.

http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704259704576033890595565026.html

[itsrobert]

1. I put two brand new $6.00 bulbs

in the outlets on my porch. The outlet has sensors to turn the bulbs on when it gets dark. At dusk, the sensor would cause the lights to flicker on and off. The bulbs did not last a hour. Out $12

[lfairban]

49. Could be the location of the photo-sensor

If the sensor gets some direct or enough bounced light from the bulb, it will turn itself off as quickly as it turns itself on. Then it just goes around in circles turning itself on and off

[Statistical]

67. Can use a normal photo sensor w/ CFL. As you discovered they will kill them.

They make special CFL compatible photo sensors.

The problem is most photo sensors aren't an on/off switch. As it starts to get dark the sensor starts to sllow more and more power to flow to the light. So it is more like slowly turning up the volume on a radio as opposed to on/off.

CFL must operate at a fixed voltage and amperage. More or less damages them. Home Depot & Lowes sell CFL compatible photo sensors which have no "ramp up" effect they are either completely off or completely on.

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. I tried/used them in my bathroom - no more

Each time you turn them on, they start out yellowish and then get a little whiter after 5 or ten minutes of burning, they last LESS than regular incandescent bulbs and cost a whole lot more. I also tried them in the living room and cannot read on them for the first ten minutes until they heat up, and the dimmer no longer works.

Not ready for prime time.

[Maine_Nurse]

4. And they don't put out useful heat. nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

8. Actually, they get quite hot

Maybe not quite as hot as the incandescents, but too hot to handle, that's for sure. And when they burn out, sometimes the glass gets brittle and they break easily, releasing mercury into the air.

[Tesha]

13. Glass gets brittle"???

You'll need to provide a citation for *THAT* ridiculous
claim.

(It's true for some other lamp types, more-or-less, but
you're the only person I've ever heard make that claim
for a CFL.)

Tesha

[madmax]

18. Sorry I don't have a link

but, I read that an apartment fire was caused by an 'exploding CFL light bulb. :shrug: I hate losing my mind. :(

[Tesha]

24. Oh, there've been incidents of CFL integrated ballasts catching fire.

But "exploding bulbs" was probably sloppy reportage
and CFL glass embrittlement is figment of somebody's
imagination.

Tesha

[madmax]

32. Thanks for clarifying.

I've wanted to switch but, I hate the light it gives off. Weired, or it's my eyes ;)

[Cronus Protagonist]

28. Cite one yourself for your claim that it's "ridiculous"

After that, I'll think about providing one for you. My experience. They break easily once used, particularly at the bends in the stems where they enter the ceramic which gets way hot.

[Tesha]

39. As you well know, I can't cite instance of occurrences that don't occur.

And you clearly can't provide a citation for exactly
the same reason: the scenario you're proposing
*DOESN'T OCCUR*.

Tesha

[Cronus Protagonist]

53. Tesha, you amaze me

Not in a good way. I have my own personal experience. I don't need to look it up or find a cite.

Now you claim my experience is NOT happening.... lol.... although they do break very easily at the stems and the folds, by my personal experience. They get hot - no human can handle one bare handed if it's been on for more than a couple of minutes. They don't last anywhere near as long anywhere in my loft as incandescent - the longevity claims by the manufacturer just don't show up here, don't know why. And they're decidedly yellower than incandescent light, they flicker, I have one in a lamp right now that's flickering while turned off.

Let me ask you a question. Am I a liar? And if so, why would I lie? I mean, really. I've bought twenty or more of these things over the last few years, earnestly tried them out and I've switched back to incandescent for these reasons. Now ask yourself, why would someone lie about such a thing? Why?

[InvisibleTouch]

61. I can corroborate. I have had them break too.

Not often, but I've had it happen. Once while trying to tighten a loose bulb - it just shattered.

[wtmusic]

69. Happened to me

They're not designed to be twisted.

[joshcryer]

75. I got some of the originals that came out in the late 90s early 2000s and one *blew up* on me.

I called the people to complain because it was supposed to last 5 years at the minimum, but the girl on the phone was a ditz. I asked her where I could send it because I assumed they'd want to do QC on the component and figure out what went wrong. Again, her answers were very airheady.

The smell from that bulb blowing up was pretty alarming, but I haven't had any problems since. It was a Phillips, I've used GE ever since.

[Maine_Nurse]

21. Not heating kind of hot, unfortunately

Electricity is way too expensive to heat with up here, but if you are using it for light anyway, a few 60w incandescents burning do actually contribute useful heat to your home, especially in a smaller room.

We also use them to keep pipes from freezing or fuel from gelling. Flouro's don't cut it for those uses, especially when it is in a location that is 0 degrees F. Common CFL's are not particularly cold-friendly.

[Tesha]

12. For the living room, buy a higher-wattage CFL.

For dimming uses, buy a dimmable CFL.

And frankly, I don't believe you when you say
they took "ten minutes" to warm up; the slowest
CFLs we've seen are more like two or maybe three
minutes, and most are more like 30 seconds.

Tesha

[Cronus Protagonist]

30. Tell you what, I'll just buy a reguar wattage regular bulb.

You can keep your mercury filled, slow to brighten, easy to break CFLs.

[Tesha]

37. Sure -- burn three to four times the electricity.

No problem; it's only our one-and-only planet.

Tesha

[Cronus Protagonist]

38. Yeah!

Until something better comes along, I have no problem with that. We can always make more electricity.

[Statistical]

82. "We can always make more electricity."

Sad.

[GliderGuider]

3. Between the short lifespan, the abysmal light quality, the mercury and the switching power supply

They are just not worth the trouble. I've pulled all of them out except for a couple of basement bulbs, and gone back to incancdescents. Maybe LEDs will light the way to the promised land, eventually.

[Tesha]

14. And that Nuclear electricity you buy is "too cheap to meter!" anyway, right?

Or at least not worth conserving.

Tesha

[GliderGuider]

17. The problem is that there's more to the life cycle than the electricity.

I put them in at first to save electricity, but I found I was paying in unexpected ways (like mercury, high material costs and short lifespan) that offset any operational electricity savings several times over. The key to being an ecologically effective consumer is to understand life cycle issues, so as not to get snookered by the "single factor brigade".

[Tesha]

25. So how was the mercury in the CFL affecting you...

...and how did that contrast against the reduced mercury
emissions from coal-fired power plants?

Tesha

[GliderGuider]

29. Mercury is a neurotoxin, of course.

The mercury from coal plants is captured in scrubbers (http://www.epa.gov/ttnatw01/utility/hgwhitepaperfinal.pdf). In any event the electricity I use is largely from hydro and nuclear, which has a much better mercury profile than even well-scrubbed coal plants. My province of Ontario gets 74% of its power from nuclear, hydro and renewables, and only 18% or so from coal. (http://www.canadaenergy.ca/index.php?hydro=future&direct=of&electricity=electricity) The coal plants all use scrubbers, so the mercury they produce is negligible.

My decision to revert to incandescent bulbs was perhaps not politically correct, but it was ecologically, environmentally and economically sound.

[Tesha]

36. And the mercury in CFLs is "captured" within a sealed glass tube.

Or do you ritually smash every CFL before you
dispose of it?

Tesha

[GliderGuider]

42. Not sure what your issue is?

The mercury itself was really a non-issue. Unfortunately its presence forced me to recycle the bulbs, which required the use of my car to deliver them to a recycling center. That life-cycle requirement was a much bigger factor than the mercury itself.

I made a multi-factorial decision to go back to using incandescent light bulbs because I felt they had, for me, a better balance of usability, environmental friendliness and cost. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

[Cronus Protagonist]

52. You're so much nicer than I

Why, one wonders, would your or my personal choice matter to anyone on here? For me, it's greener to use incandescent. Same for you. Why that would get under anyone's skin is a mystery to me.

[GliderGuider]

56. As my sainted mother used to say

"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." Though why anyone would want a lot of dead flies was a mystery she never explained. I only learned much later that all the shit on the interwebs attracts a lot of them, and that her advice would come in handy.
:thumbsup:

[madokie]

46. Amazing I changed all ours out three or four years ago and have replaced two

I wouldn't go back to incandescents for them. When we first switched over our electric bill dropped by 20 bucks a month. They've more than paid for themselves even if I had to replace all of them right this minute.

Methinks someone is full of baloney myself. :hi: And I'm not talking about me either :-) I'm well on my way to having this someone, unnamed, figured out like I do a few of the others who regularly post here. again :-) a smilie for you.
peace and have some smoke for me too. k

[GliderGuider]

48. It could be that the duty cycle on mine has been too short

I put 12 of them in my new place two years ago, and then replaced three or four in the first year. Oddly enough, the two that I put outside on motion detector porch lights are going strong in their second Canadian winter. I've used CFLs since they hit the market, and I've never been happy with the level of infant mortality or the mismatch I got on the light quality. I've been a photographer for over 40 years, so I'm very sensitive to light colour issues. As far as lifespan goes, I suspect that the problems I've had are not so much that they don't last, but that the failure distribution is bimodal. A fairly high proportion of them seem to fail early, but the ones that don't fail seem to last very well. It doesn't take too many failures like that turn me skeptical on a technology, though.

I'm off to make some sandwiches. Do you want mustard on yours?

ETA: I don't mind whether you agree with my positions or not. The world is plenty big enough for all kinds of opinions, attitudes and approaches. I tend to be contrarian, because I deeply distrust received wisdom. I always look for holes in any gospel I'm presented with. This instinct causes me to make some mistakes, because sometimes gospel is gospel for good reason. What I have found though is that by and large most gospel has holes in it. The purveyors get a little heated when that is pointed out. It happens in economics, energy policy, politics and it a lot in environmental circles. I don't do this just to be a shit-disturber, though because I'm a contrarian I do get a kick out of getting a rise out of people.. And I especially don't do it because I want to talk people into my particular position. I do it because it invites people to think more deeply about the issues, and to clarify their positions by defending them, and it affords me the same opportunity.

[joshcryer]

58. You have to stop the "turn off the switch" behavior when you leave a room with CFLs.

I was taught to do this as a kid. A 10 cent lightbulb was far cheaper than leaving my bedroom light on when I went outside to play. I went through my first CFLs in about a year because I would turn my light off every time I got up to do practically anything, get a cup of tea, light off, go to the bathroom, light off.

CFLs last longer if the light is kept on for those brief periods.

LEDs shouldn't have this problem (and we'll likely be able to set them up to only come on if we are present), but yeah.

[joshcryer]

57. That's very very odd, I'm going on 4 years for my latest batch. I figure 5 years is reasonable.

[InvisibleTouch]

5. I use them, and they last a reasonable amount of time...

...but they don't give as much light as the incandescents. The biggest problem I see with the CFs is safe disposal, because of the mercury content. Presumably there are disposal options for them, but who knows about them or can find them? The vast majority are just thrown out with the trash.

I'm not dissing CFs, but the technology and disposal options still need work. Meanwhile we can't dispense with incandescents completely, because sometimes you do need a bulb that gives off heat as well as light, for instance when you're heating a terrarium.

[txlibdem]

15. Disposal of CFL bulbs -- Home Depot takes them

I agree with you about the disposal concerns of CFL bulbs. The Home Depot takes them back; there's a box for them right inside the door of my local Home Depot. They offer a 1:1 replacement of CFL bulbs, once they even offered to replace a bulb that I told them I did not even buy at Home Depot but I didn't feel right about doing that.

[InvisibleTouch]

60. That's great to know, thanks!! n/t

[LiberalEsto]

6. Some CFLs do wear out faster than expected

but I've had others going strong for several years. The ones in the carport and on the front porch worked for at least 5 yearsif not longer.

We use CFL bulbs everywhere in the house except in one bathroom, which has a dimmer, the dining room, also on a dimmer, and the light in the fan over the stove, which has a lighter and darker setting.

If they phase out regular incandescent bulbs, I hope someone comes out with alternatives for appliance bulbs. I've never seen a CFL appliance bulb.

[liberal N proud]

7. I hate the quality of light from the CFL

I cannot read under the lights of CFL lights that fit into the screw sockets.

[joshcryer]

72. So use a halogen lamp for reading.

I admit that they do emit a much "cooler" light for me, but I am currently sitting under two bulbs that consume 30 watts each but put out 2100 lumen's (each). My room is bright.

[Nihil]

79. The "daylight" CFLs are also good for that if you want a bright room.

Our "dining room" (i.e., the room with a table!) is used by the kids for
their homework and they found that a "standard 60W equivalent" CFL wasn't
bright enough for them and that the yellowness of the light was a pain
for colour-related things (art, textiles, etc.) so we decided to try one
of the "daylight bulb" versions of CFL - from a craft shop FWIW - more
expensive but worth a go.

It turned out to be the best "upgrades" I've tried: it is such a clear
bright light that it is a real wake-up room (ideal for breakfast-time
with teenagers on a school day!). (It also seems to help if you suffer
from SAD at all - my wife gets a mild form - so double bonus there.)

:hi:

[Kali]

9. glad I'm not the only one

they really don't seem to last any longer than regular old bulbs

I still buy them on sale but have a pile of dead ones I don't know how to dispose of (rural county with no real recycling/hazmat abilities)

[Tesha]

16. How far is it to the nearest Home Depot/Lowes/etc.?

They all take 'em back!

Tesha

[Kali]

20. thanks!

didn't know that (mostly bought them local - Ace, Safeway, and wallyworld)

now to remember them next trip to Tucson!

[tularetom]

10. I have 40 burnt out CFL's in a bag waiting to go to the e-waste dump

I'm not convinced they even last as long as conventional incandescent bulbs and with the added replacement cost I doubt if they save any money at all.

My wife swears she can perceive the flicker and gets a headache from trying to read by the light of a CFL. I don't have the same experience but I've heard that others do.

All in all, they're a rip off as far as I'm concerned.

[hedgehog]

11. The article suggests to me that the bulbs are saving energy.

It's the savings attributed to PG&E that are below expectations. Since some people bought the bulbs on their own, PG&E isn't credited with the savings from those bulbs.

At 6.3 years, the bulbs still outlast incadescents, and the price has come down considerably.

When purchasing a CFL, go by the lumens, not the equivalent wattage. Check the package on your 60 watt bulb to find out how many lumens it generates, then buy a CFL bulb that matches or exceeds that number. I suspect that a lot of people who can't see with the CFL have actually installed bulbs that out out the same lumens as a 40 watt incandescent.

As for the porchlight going on and off, I suspect that for some reason, light from the CFL is hitting the sensor.

[Tesha]

23. The porch light...

It's probably more complex than the light from the
lamp exciting the sensor.

We've seen cases where the CFL can activate using
just the current that "sneaks through" active electronic
controls. For example, we operate a lot of our lights on
X-10 remotely controlled switches. When we try to use
ordinary X-10 wall switch modules (that don't have any
connection to the neutral wire), we get exactly the symptom
reported by the poster: CFLs inserted into the sockets
controlled by those X-10 switches flicker when off. (And
LED Christmas lights controlled by such switches stay
noticeably lit albeit dimly lit even when "off".)

We found we needed to use the style of X-10 wall switch
that also connects to the neutral wire so less power is being
run through the load (the lamp) when the lamp is supposed
to be off.

Tesha

[txlibdem]

31. CFLs do not last in dimmer switches

Most dimmer switches in homes today are incompatible with CFLs. I've replaced the CFLs in my dimmer-switched rooms to (more expensive) Dimmable CFL bulbs and have had no problems since then. With one exception: some 4" ceiling cans over the kitchen sink burn out CFLs within a month or two so I gave up and put incandescents back in those. The "regular" ceiling cans work just fine with dimmable CFLs.

[qb]

19. I hope this accelerates the development of better LED options.

[hedgehog]

34. I'm waiting for the LEDs myself. Right now there are some out there,

but they're still rather pricey:

http://www.ccrane.com/lights/led-light-bulbs/geobulb-led-light-bulb.aspx

Someone up-thread complained about flicker from the CFLs. When I see LED Christmas lights, the blue ones have a weird look to them. Anyone else notice this, and if so, is it due to the blue cover or the LED bulb itself? I'm halfway thinking the problem is that the LED Christmas bulbs are so bright, they mess with your night vision.

[Tesha]

40. LED Christmas lights mostly use cheap "half-wave" rectifier circuits and...

...therefore flicker *VERY* noticeably. That's almost certainly
part of what you're noticing.

Tesha

[hedgehog]

43. Thanks! I didn't know about that!

[hunter]

51. I've got some full-wave commercial grade LED Christmas lights...

... but they were expensive.

I use them for full time yard lighting, not just for Christmas.

The flicker is much less annoying. They have special water tight power connectors too.

[txlibdem]

54. 2012 will be the year of the LED bulbs

Mass production begins in earnest in 2012 for LED bulbs from GE, Philips, Sylvania, NEC, Toshiba and Sharp (among others). Those "in the know" say they will be $10 apiece by 2015. I am biased towards the Philips bulb (it looks so damn cool: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20004766-54.html ). It uses blue LEDs and the yellow glass changes it into a "normal" light color. How cool is that?


BTW, +1 to *forgot their name, sorry* for pointing out the need to compare the Lumens for each bulb before you buy. Here, NEC states that their "60 watt replacement" bulb puts out 350 Lumens verus the 800-ish Lumens for a 60 watt incandescent bulb --http://www.robaid.com/gadgets/nec-announces-led-light-bulb-production.htm-- so you'd need twice the number of fixtures (twice the number of bulbs) to achieve the same lighting level in your home. The GE bulb that is targeted as a "40 watt replacement" bulb puts out 450 Lumens --http://www.robaid.com/tech/ge-announced-production-of-energy-smart-led-bulbs.htm-- and does not cost any more. Shop around! ... Sub-BTW, if you've got $40 for each light bulb, many of these LED bulbs are available now (but I'm waiting till the prices come down via mass production).

[qb]

55. Thanks for the info! I'll keep my eyes open.

:bounce:

[GliderGuider]

22. Here's a look at some of the issues with CFLs

http://therealtimjones.com/truth-compact-fluorescent-bulbs/

[jeff47]

27. He's got several things wrong in his post

Most notably the requirement for CFL-rated fixtures and the cleanup procedure. Both are drawn from early CFLs, not the current ones.

[jeff47]

26. CFLs do not work well everywhere

So if you're having trouble with them, make sure you're using them in the right place.

There's two common places where they fail to perform well:
1) If they don't run for at least 5 minutes, the ballast breaks much sooner than expected. So they're not a good choice for a bathroom or closet where you only turn the light on briefly.

2) If it's cold. If it's near freezing or colder, the bulb will take a very long time to warm up, and again suffer a premature death.

[localroger]

33. Buying extra for spares isn't an issue

...assuming those spares will be used, it's zero-sum.

You cannot use CFL's with dimmers, including such things as X10 switches which are dimmers as well as remote controls. You also shouldn't use them in short duty cycle applications (bathrooms, closets) or where they might have to come on in sub-freezing conditions (outside north of wherever).

OTOH for many applications they are far, far better even if you don't count the energy costs. I've removed the X10 dimmers from all of my ceiling fans so I could put CFL's in them; the vibration just kills ordinary bulbs, even the special "hardened" ones made for fans. (The filament of an incandescent bulb gets quite soft when it's on, and it doesn't like vibration.) I have 40 or 50 bulbs in my house and I used to change at least one every week or two (free bulbs from Walgreens were the shiznit). Now I replace one every few months, and I use the very cheapest bulk packed bulbs for the most part.

Also, the whole mercury thing is a red herring. The amount of mercury in a CFL is too low to be dangerous to you personally if you break one (I used to actually play with the stuff, as lots of nerd kids did, back before the Big Safe Nerf World movement got going). And the aggregate effect of disposing millions of them is no worse than that of disposing of millions of computers -- less, actually, considering sizes and lifespans, and the way to deal with it is the same, with an effective reclamation program.

[hedgehog]

35. Don't have time to look it up right now, but I read that the mercury

in the CFL is far less than the mercury emitted to burn coal to power incadescent bulbs over the life of the CFL.

[GliderGuider]

45. It depends on the amount of coal in your local generation mix

as well as how up-to-date the generation plant scrubbers are. In the province of Ontario where I live only 18% of the electricity is from coal, and the plants are all large, modern facilities that have good scrubbers. The total mercury emission from coal generation in Ontario (pop. 13 million) is 500 kg/year. That works out to 40 mg of mercury per person per year, the amount contained in 8 CFL bulbs, for about one fifth of all our industrial and residential electricity.

Thankfully, for me mercury is a non-issue. YMMV.

[Tesha]

41. A clarification about X-10...

All CFLs work fine on X-10 "appliance modules" (the ones
that have the relay in them).

Dimmable CFLs work fine on X-10 "lamp modules" (the ones
with the Triac switch).

Even ordinary non-dimmable CFLs work okay on lamp modules
but *YOU* have to remember not to try dimming them; attempting
to dim them more than one or two steps may produce too-high
peak currents in the input rectifier/filter of the CFL.

CFLs may be problematic for X-10 wall switch lamp controls for
the reason I cited in another reply: the "sneak path" current through
a wall switch module that doesn't have a connection to the neutral
wire can cause the CFL to flicker while it is supposed to be "off".

But within these constraints, X-10 and CFLs coexist fine.

[localroger]

87. Lamp modules are quite picky

Lamp modules and wall switches really don't like powering anything other than an incandescent filament. I have burned out several using them to power things like desk lamps that have transformers in them. It's true that they work fine with appliance modules but they don't make wall switch form factor appliance modules, and if you have any of the automation controls that do things like blink the lights they won't be treated as light sources.

[arachadillo]

44. CFLs

Based on the amount of virtual ink spilled on the issue of CFL utility in such a short period of time, it appears that almost as many people share a fondness for light bulb discussions as the amount of people who enjoy light bulb jokes.

On the one hand, the leading article noted,

"California's utilities are spending $548 million over seven years to subsidize consumer purchases of compact fluorescent lamps. But the benefits are turning out to be less than expected.

One reason is bulbs have gotten so cheap that Californians buy more than they need and sock them away for future use. Another reason is the bulbs are burning out faster than expected."

Left unsaid was the issue of the lightbulb brand(s) included in the CA study. Were the majority of the subsidized lightbulbs produced by familiar brand name companies, or start-ups seeking to earn a quick "subsidized dollar"? It could be the fact that some lightbulb producers produce longer lasting bulbs. OTOH, it could also be a fact that the entire light bulb industry over promised and under delivered in their zeal for earning a quick "subsidized dollar".

Other issues such as the use of mercury in CFL manufacturing, need to be taken more seriously than they have to date.

Other issues such as the "poor light" produced by CFLs need to be taken with a grain of salt. It does come across that opponents of energy saving lighting devices push the idea of poor lighting quality as a way to downplay their utility. The fact that CFL production spans the light spectrum, from soft light to daylight (6500K) means that there's a CFL for every lighting need.

IMHO, LEDs represent the light of the future. With the ability to produce light above the 6500K mark, they also span the lighting spectrum from soft light to daylight. Mercury is not one of their basic components. They last longer than incandescent lights and CFLs, making them a perfect addition to the energy neutral homes of the future.

What concerns me is the possibility, that as LED prices decline, creating a surplus of CFLs, developed states and their brand name producers will think it's a good idea to dump a bunch a mercury laden CFls on developing states, without providing the necessary funds for recycling the mercury once those CFLs burn out. That's no lightbulb joke.

[Kennah]

47. Well, I am perplexed

I started switching to CFLs back around 1999 or 2000. I literally still have some CFLs from back then that are still in use and still work just fine. I have used them in both indoor and outdoor fixtures.

Cheapest I ever paid for CFLs was 50¢ a bulb. Average these days from Costco is probably $1 to $3 a bulb.

I won't say the mercury does not concern me, but I don't lie awake at night over it. When the bulbs go bad, I replace them, set them aside, and recycle them at the local hardware store. The big box chains and the locals recycle them.

Dimmable CFLs, IMHO, are not quite ready for prime time. Perhaps LEDs will fill this void.

The heat issue is very noticeable. CFLs produce far less heat than do incandescents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp#Environmental_issues
http://www.epa.gov/mercury/consumer.htm

I think the real issue with mercury comes down to whether the additional energy produced from using incandescents generates more mercury waste in the environment than does the use of CFLs. CFLs only dump mercury into the environment if they break rather than being safely disposed of in an appropriate facility.

[NNadir]

50. Still, low watt light bulbs are generally a good idea.

Long ago and far away, I did some analysis of this situation in a work called, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/8/185552/4950">Um, My Compact Fluorescent Bulb Is Hot. (Places and Times NOT to Conserve Electricity.)

In winter, the "savings" can be an environmental loss in some places, but those places are limited. As I calculated it back then, the only state in the United States where it would be a net environmental loss to use CFL's would be Vermont, although anti-nukes are hard at work trying to destroy Vermont's dangerous fossil fuel free electricity infrastructure.

I still have CFL's in all of my lighting, and I am generally satisfied with them, although I do subjectively feel that they do not last as long as advertised.

I really hope for an affordable LED future though.

[joshcryer]

59. That was a nice non-ranty personal story, thanks for it.

Reminds me of the person who posts here and has been using incandescent to heat a pipe in his well house for like 20+ years.

[Kaleva]

62. They don't seem to last in areas where they are turned on & off often

So I've gotten into the habit of installing the lowest watt CFL bulb possible, usually the 13 watters and just leaving the lights on all the time in the evening in the places in the home where we are in and out of many times.

So, most likely, I'm not saving any energy but am replacing far fewer cfl bulbs.

[Elasg]

66. Correct me if I am wrong, but...

...don't incandenscent bulbs also wear out faster in places they are turned on and off frequently? I seem to recall reading that as well.

[Kaleva]

68. They did but are much cheaper

So, it's pretty much of a wash as far as what I'm doing. I can replace cheap but energy consuming bulbs which I turn off and on frequently or leave on the more expensive but less energy using CFLs.

[joshcryer]

71. A 5 minute on off cycle simple reduces their life by half.

In rooms where you need light most of the time, just continue to use regular on off behavior, such as bedrooms, living rooms, etc. It will not appreciably affect the life of the bulb. In closets or bathrooms you probably are better off with incandescent (unless you spend an inordinate amount of time in the bathroom), incandescent will also warm the bathroom a bit so it's nice and comfortable before you get in the shower and after, etc.

I assure you a switch to CFL saved me more than 20% on my electric bill. Turning off all appliances (when not used) except the fridge and clocks saved another astonishing 30%. It shocks me that electronics and the like still draw copious amounts of power while "off."

[Kaleva]

73. Thanks!

I'll start doing what you suggested. Altough it may be hard to get the rest of my family, especially the remaining teenager at home, to get into the habit of shutting off all appliances when not in use.

[joshcryer]

76. I use power strips, basically, when I go to sleep, I switch them off.

My computers are plugged into it, and I don't watch TV anymore (I use the computer for video entertainment). So it might be somewhat of a pain to do it with TV because people like their TVs on in the background, etc.

But yeah, with a power strip it's really easy. I also don't turn anything on until I get home from work, so my mornings are often spent without a computer on.

[Nihil]

63. Casting my mind back to previous episodes of this discussion ...

One point that hasn't been mentioned much upthread (but which has
gained implicit support from the provided anecdotes) is that CFLs
seem to be very susceptible to power supply quality.

If you are in a rural area then your power supply will be worse quality
(in terms of spikes and voltage variations from the norm) than someone
in a suburban or urban environment(*). The people who said how far they
have to drive to recycle the dead CFLs safely tended to match quite a
few of those having problems with short-lived CFLs so I suspect that
this is coming into play.

:hi:


(*) Unless they are near a factory with intermittent high power draw ...
we used to play gigs at a club near a shipyard and you could not only
see the "switch-in" effect on the lighting but hear it ... we really
didn't like risking our gear on that one!

[txlibdem]

64. $40 for an LED light bulb seems like way too much to pay --or is it?

I just did a spreadsheet calculation to find out if the "expensive" LED light bulbs that are coming on the market are worth the outrageous cost, or are they a waste of money. My first thought was "There is no way I'm spending $40 on a light bulb." But when you do the calculations, the answer may surprise you as much as it surprised me.

I made a couple of assumptions: Philips LED bulb (12 watts) versus 60 watt bulb, 10 cents per kilowatt hour from your power company, use the light for 5 hours per day, average 30 days per month, LED bulb costs $40, incandescent bulbs cost 50 cents apiece (I've paid more than that but just for the sake of argument). I did not calculate the replacement costs of the incandescent bulbs (which last 1000 hours).

I used the following calculation to find the per-month energy cost of each type of bulb: # of watts divided by 1000 (to find # of kilowatts per hour of usage), multiplied by cost per kWh (.10), multiplied by 5 (to find cost per day), multiplied by 30 (to find the cost per month). Then I ran that calculation for a number of months till I arrived at the number of months needed for the energy cost of the incandescent bulb to exceed the cost of the LED bulb (plus the energy cost of the LED bulb).

Results:

• The LED bulb costs 18 cents per month, the incandescent bulb costs 90 cents per month.
  
• The incandescent bulb's energy cost alone will exceed the purchase price plus energy cost of the LED in 56 months
  
• The LED bulb will last for 166 months under this scenario (25,000 hours)
  
• 166-56 = 110 months to enjoy the savings from this "expensive" LED bulb over using the "cheap" incandescent bulb
  
• 56 months is 4 years and 8 months, the time for this LED bulb to have paid itself off by the energy savings

I have changed my mind about waiting till 2012 to start buying LED bulbs. Those in the know say they'll cost $10 apiece in 2015 --pays itself off in 14 months.

[Statistical]

74. One thing to watch out about LED is the wattage comparison.

The wattage comparison is often "optamistic".

I bought a 12 watt LED (60 watt) equivelent. I would compare the light output to be more like 40 watts. Calling it a 60watt replacement IMHO is somewhat deceptive. Your mileage may vary but I returned it to Lowes. I think the high cost of LED is making manufacturers "stretch" the claimed light output. Likely to get 60 watt equivelent would have required the 100 watt equivelent LED (which costs 30% more).

[txlibdem]

77. It's actually the Lumens that needs comparing

A standard incandescent 60 watt bulb pumps out 800 Lumens. Some of the "60 watt replacement" LED bulbs on sale today list their Lumens as 300 or 350. But your eye is the best test equipment ever invented so you did the right thing by returning that bulb that didn't live up to its claims.

[Statistical]

78. LUMEN!!! That is it. Yeah some serious deceptive marketing going on.

"Normal 60watt light bulb" - 800 lumens. - $0.50 ea

13 watt CFL (60 watt equivalent) - 800 lumens - $1.50ea
http://www.amazon.com/GE-13-Watt-Energy-SmartTM-replacement/dp/B000NISDNU/ref=sr_1_1?s=lamps-light&ie=UTF8&qid=1295584529&sr=1-1

4 watt LED (claimed 60 watt equivalent) - 303 lumens - $24.95 ea
http://www.ccrane.com/lights/led-light-bulbs/geobulb-led-light-bulb.aspx

Honestly the LED in more like 30 watt equivalent. Nearly 15x the price for half the light output.

I think we need some truth in advertising laws.

[txlibdem]

80. As with all products, you need to become an expert to avoid ripoffs

(too bad there isn't a governmental agency whose job it is to prosecute fraudulent or deceptive advertising practices)

The Philips LED that is coming out this year (the link is in one of my other posts here) is said to output the full 800 Lumens.

PS, check out my other post where I talk about the surprising economics of paying $40 for a Philips LED bulb versus using a 60 watt incandescent. It might surprise you...

[Statistical]

81. Well if/when there is a $40 800 lumens LED that is a game changer.

CFL still comes out cheaper but LED has a lot of non-economic advantages (extreme life - 25+ years, no mercury, better life quality, etc).

Yeah LED is the inevitable future it is just sad the offerings right now are deceptive. 300 lumens isn't "60 watt equivalent" and it would be nice if the FTC prevented that deceptive marketing.

The other cool thing about LED is prices will drop similar to what Moore's law did for CPU. So $40 in 2011, same bulb will be $20 18months later, and $10 18 months after that. So by 2015 or so there really will be no good reason to be use anything but LED.

Still for me CFL is a good stop-gap solution until LED "gets there".

[txlibdem]

89. Moore's Law

I expect that you're right.

A bit off topic perhaps, but hopefully the same thing will happen with electric vehicles. I have a Nissan Leaf on reserve but I can't go through with the purchase because I recently became disabled so our income just got cut in half.

[arachadillo]

91. Cost of LEDs

Hi txlibdem,

I enjoyed reading your calculations and basically agree with them. Could I quote you on it?

Taking into consideration that the average porch light might be lighted for 2-3 hours/evening, under the $10 cost scenario it would only take a little over two years for the bulbs to begin paying big dividends. It's a pleasant though for everyone who enjoys sitting on the porch during warm evenings, chatting and drinking lemonade.

Also, was just remarking yesterday on political cycles, the TX Rs going bust and the high probability that in the not too distant future, TX will once again be organized and managed along txlibdem rules:)

[txlibdem]

93. You're talking about Rick Perry's $25 bn deficit, none of the RW pundits talk about that

What a joke. I remember when Texas was a Democratic state. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll see it become Democratic again before I die.

[freeplessinseattle]

65. Those things are horrible for the migraine prone

hate then with a passion. since my landlord replaced all the lights in the hallways and outside with them I have been seriously considering getting some transitions lenses, when I can afford them.

[JohnWxy]

70. Seems like mine last about half as long as incandescant.

[happyslug]

83. I notice no one ask if their local Utilities has problems with wattage?

West Penn Power, In Western Pennsylvania, has been and is noted for very bad Wattage control over its lines. When I was growing up we would go through Incandescent lights constantly do to the fact the power from West Penn was that variable. Rural Co-ops suffer from the same problem. The main reason West Penn had such a problem was it started as a Streetcar line in the Rural Coke Region of Western Pennsylvania. It then expanded from those lines into rural western Pennsylvania. The problem with any electrical line is the demand for electricity over the line varies over time. In Urban Areas these tend to average out so wattage can be kept within a very tight range, but it rural America that is hard to do for demand on a line may be from one customer and when that customer cuts usage, no one else is on the power line to draw that power to average the power demand out. Thus you get more spikes in wattage on such rural lines then urban lines.

These power peaks hit any light bulb hard, and if you have a light bulb that can NOT handle the surge of power, the bulb will "break" i.e burn out. In urban areas, if you are on the same line of a high demand electric device, you will have similar problems (For example electric engines such as an elevator). If you are further away from such devices, then things tend to average out and such wattage spikes are rare (and that seems to be the norm in most urban/suburban areas).

Just a comment on why CFL bulbs may be failing, it may be as simple as you being on a power line with excessive changes in electrical demand. No problem with the bulbs, no problem with how you are using the bulbs,the problem is the source of electricity and most people have any control over the actual source of electrical power coming into their home (And for you people who can "choose" you source of electricity, the actual source is still the provider of the power line into your home NOT the electrical generator). CFLs are more picky on wattage then incandescents and LEDs and thus the electricity wattage variation affects CFLs harder, but it is just s problem we all have to live with given the variation of wattage in any power line.

[Statistical]

85. If someone does have a lot of bad surges in the area a whole house surge protector is a good idea.

They run about $150 to $200 but you need an electrician to install it (I don't recommend messing w/ house mains) so more like $300 to $400 installed.

Can improve the lifespan of whole house of electrical devices (especially motors; fridges, washers, driers, etc).

[happyslug]

90. Surge protectors only work to a limited degree

I remember watching the light on my surge protector going constantly off and on, indicating that it was "working" (When the light was out, the surge exceeded the capacity of the Surge Protector). A whole house surge protector help some, but even after one was installed you still had a lot of surges. My parent's house was at the end of a power line and as such, even being in an urban area, the line would surge constantly.

Just pointing out that CFL bulbs seems to be a little bit more picky as to surges (i.e. wear out quicker) then LEDs (and that is from my experiences with a LED headlight powered by a generator on my bicycle. LEDs tend to be more tolerate of high voltage and wattage surges). Incandescents are cheap so most people accept the fact you have to change them.

[GliderGuider]

84. Why CFLs are important

I consider the impact of changes in residential lighting on overall electricity consumption to be so small as to be a lame reason for forcing such a change as mandatory CFLs on everyone. After all, lighting consumes only 9% of residential electricity, which itself is only 37% of total electrical consumption in the US.

This means that changing 75% of our lighting from incandescent to CFL would save at most 2% of our electricity consumption. If we extrapolate this to a global level, it might save 400 TWh per year - if we could get full compliance. To put this 2% into context, world electricity consumption has increased about 3% per year every year for the last 20 years. Changing three quarters of the world’s residential electric lights to CFLs would save us one week’s worth of global electricity production. And keep in mind that this is a one-time saving, while global electricity consumption (and the coal used to generate most of it) keeps going up year after year.

So is putting all this effort towards changing light bulbs pointless in the big scheme of things?

I used to think so.

Then one day I realized that the real value of this change is not the physical effect of saving electricity. The true value is psychological. I illustrate it with the saying, “Every time you change a light bulb, the light bulb changes you.”

One of the problems the environmental movement has always had is simply to get people to think about the issues. This isn’t rocket science, the problems are all around us and the causes are easy to grasp, but most people get so caught up in their daily lives that they just don’t think about them.

That’s where compact fluorescent bulbs come in. Every time you go to a store and are faced with a decision of whether to buy a CFL or an incandescent bulb, you have to think, however briefly, about the reason that choice exists. You may decide to buy the incandescent bulb, but you have thought about it and had to justify that choice to yourself somehow.

Then for many people there comes a moment when they say, “OK, from now on I will only use CFLs as my standard bulbs.” With that decision, their life changes. They have consciously or unconsciously accepted the underlying environmental rationale for this one change. Having made that change, it becomes easier and easier to see the environmental rationale behind a host of other potential choices.

CFLs turn soccer moms into environmental activists. And that kind of grass-roots shift in values is what provides any long-term hope there may be for mitigating the global environmental clusterfuck.

[phantom power]

86. What do you think...

about the competing argument, which goes more or less like: "tidbits like CFLs just allow us to continue fooling ourselves that we can solve this problem while continuing business as usual" ?

Like most things, I don't feel like I know the answer to that.

[GliderGuider]

88. "Solving the problem"

I think that thinking of this as a "problem" that has a "solution" is an error. The situation reflects the operation of a very large, complex adaptive system that is unfolding according to its own dynamic, in which our personal choices play a small part. I don't think it matters what we think or believe about problems or solutions, or whether we are telling ourselves the truth or fooling ourselves. What matters is what happens.

Some people are predisposed to see problems and solutions, others want to ignore the whole thing and go have a beer. Will things turn out "better" if there are more of the first kind of people in the world? We have no way to know, so I've decided to be the kind of person for whom questions are more interesting than answers.

[Kablooie]

92. I bought some California subsidized bulbs a few months ago. 2 have burned out already.