Honda Motors, the fuel economy "leader"?

[Kolesar]

We had to go to some new car dealers to shop for a replacement automobile. I read the Honda Accord V6 sticker to see what fuel economy is gets. It specifies all of 21 city/30 highway. I purchased a 1989 Chevrolet Celebrity and still recall its fuel economy specification: 19/29. So, in sixteen years, the world's greenest automaker has managed to engineer an equivalent vehicle that gets all of 10% better fuel economy in the city and a pitiful 3% improvement in highway fuel economy.

One might respond that the new vehicle has more power, but the Chevrolet was not lacking. I transported four adults, a canoe, and a week's supply of food on a road trip to Canada with that Chevrolet and we made it with that humble push-rod V6. It had adequate power.

What do I need 240 hp and 212 ft.lbs of torque for anyway? I am not planning to drag race.

[LTR]

1. Honda's fuel economy average is a bit skewed

Keep in mind that the reason Honda is held in high regard as far as fuel economy is concerned is because they don't do much in the truck department. Meanwhile, Chevrolet is loaded with them, as they do them well and there's demand for them.

Have you looked at the new Chevy Malibu? You can get the one with the 2.2 I-4 motor. Not as strong as the 3.5 V6 option, but the 2.2 will yield 35 MPG on the highway and get you to where you want to go. The V6 is rated at around 30-31 highway. The redesigned model is a great car, and I'd put it up against the Accord or Camry anyday. Otherwise, there is an Accord hybrid (if you can get it) with fuel economy pushed up to the upper 30's on the highway.

Keep in mind that these are EPA estimates, and can vary wildly depending on your cargo, driving habits, quality of gasoline, etc.

Fuel economy for cars hasn't changed an outrageous amount (and most of it has come about by making the cars less heavy), but there have been some serious strides in horsepower gain. Remember when cars struggled to get 100 hp out of V8's back in the '70's?

[ochazuke]

2. They're getting worse

My 1977 Honda Civic got 50 MPG. My 1990 Honda Accord (also 4 cyl.) pushes 30. Now, if I got another Accord, It'd be that 6 cyl. guzzler 'cause I want th' POWER.

No, actually I won't get a new car because in 15 years, they haven't improved enough.

[midnight armadillo]

3. There have been improvements

Your chevy: 130 hp, 170 ft-lbs of torque, 2.8L engine. 20/29 mpg.

The Honda: 3.0L, 240 ho, 212 ft-lbs torque: 21/30 mpg. Plus that Honda is a ULEV engine with vastly lower emissions than the Chevy. Increasing the engine power by such a large margin, lowering emissions, and getting better mileage indicates a far superior engine design. That doesn't mean Honda engineered it solely for mileage - that's what their 4-cyl is for. The upcoming new Civic will have much better mileage than the current ones.

It's not that Honda's mileage kicks ass necessarily, it's that everyone else largely sucks by comparison. They also have a corporate policy of having the mileage leader in every market segment they release a car.

VW is releasing a Europe-only golf that's turbo & supercharged, has a 1.4L engine at 170 hp, and is expected to have mileage competitive with the VW diesels. There's lots of room for innovation in efficiency since really, not many people can safely drive a 300 hp car, much less actually need it.

Of course, your chevy was probably 1/15th the cost of a new V6 Accord :-)

[htuttle]

4. You're all driving too much car

I've been getting to work every day for the last 3 years on a vehicle that weighs 250 lbs, has a 9 hp engine, had has a top speed of 55 mph. I get 105 mpg. It's a cheap scooter from India.

Why anyone needs more than 20 hp just to drive themselves somewhere, I'll never understand. Think about it. Do you really think you'd need a wagon with TWENTY HORSES attached to it to go to the store? Now think about how ridiculous it would be to have a wagon with 240 horses attached to it, and only a single rider in the empty wagon?

Crazy, crazy, crazy.

And stupid.

[Massacure]

5. I'd like to see your ride your scooter when it is 30 below out.

And there is a foot of snow on the ground, with more falling.

[htuttle]

7. I live in Wisconsin, and I do!

I will admit to taking public transportation about two weeks worth of days last winter when it was too icy, but other than that, mere subzero temperatures were not enough to stop me from riding. I just bundle up.

If I had a trike instead of a two-wheeler, I'd have no qualms about riding on icy roads.

[LTR]

6. So...

You can haul a family on the back of your scooter?

Cruise down the interstate?

Take out dates?

Haul groceries? Go shopping?

What do you do when it rains? How about snow?

Scooters are probably practical if you live in a big city like New York or Chicago, or a college town and have a short commute. For many, your idea is not practical. Hence, we drive cars. Don't insult us because we have different needs.

To each their own.

[htuttle]

8. Do you take your family with you everywhere you go?

Do you always haul 500 lbs of stuff everywhere? If so, why?

I sit there at stop lights every day and see that literally 90% of the cars driving by during rush hour have only one person in them. There is NO excuse for driving a 200 hp, 4000 lb vehicle around if you are just driving yourself.

In answer to your other questions, I ride in the rain and subzero weather, but do take public transportation the week or two that it's icy here in WI. I have a raincoat and rain pants. They're cheap.

I do haul groceries and other items all the time. If I needed to haul more, I'd get a sidecar (which I've considered, but at $1200, haven't taken the step yet).

Of course there are other transporation needs from time to time, but MOST of the time, I see people driving way too much car.

Let me put it this way. At 9hp and 108 mpg, I get a top speed of 55mph. Not enough for the freeway nowdays, but fine for state highways. Other people drive vehicles with 200+hp and a fraction of the gas mileage, and legally, they can only drive TEN MILES PER HOUR FASTER! How much is that extra 10 mph costing you, really, and how badly do you need to go 10 mph faster?


on edit:
I forgot one of your questions. I don't take dates out on my scooter, because it would annoy my wife. I do take my wife around on it, however. As a matter of fact, the slogan of the Bajaj scooter division is: "Seats two, Carries a nation". They advertise their scooters as 'good family vehicles' in India.

[Massacure]

9. So how much was the scooter itself?

Edit: Oh, and does it need insurance like a car?

[htuttle]

10. It was $2000 brand new in 2002

They're up to about $2500 MSRP right now, but are bit lower in reality at the dealer. 'Stella' scooters are a similar value, also from India, but pollute more because they are two cycle (mine is a 4-cycle, 4 speed).

They also have street-legal three wheelers often used as mini-taxis and delivery vehicles around the world and can seat three people, but are closer to $6000. I don't need one right now. The three wheelers (which have 12.5 hp engines) only go 40 mph without modification, but still get almost 100 mpg.

http://www.bajajusa.com

I really don't want to be preachy about it, but imagine how much gas, and how much less pollution (and how much more parking) we'd have if most people who could commute on scooters, actually did.

on edit:
Collision insurance is EXTREMELY cheap for a scooter.

[Massacure]

12. Still a bit out of the price range of a 17 year old without work.

Plus with college level math and english as well as high school advanced placement science and history I don't think I will be having time for work once school starts.

I guess I'm stuck with the cars my parents use.

[Kolesar]

13. I suppose I could commute with scooter like I sometimes do w/ my road bike

...For the five suitable months out of the year. It's too cold and snowy between October and April. We got 100 inches of snow last year. I'll bet you didn't. One problem would be that I ride my bike on the sidewalk near the busy roads and on a bike path in the Metropark. I also ride on the beat up shoulders because I don't want to play toro' toro' with the hurried commuters in the driving lane.

Then I could leave the big beast in the garage and save a lot of gasoline. I don't think it would pay for itself very soon, though.

[happyslug]

14. And for the other months you could use a velomobiles

http://www.velomobiles.net/

[AndyTiedye]

17. Looks Beautiful, But

I'd hate to pedal that thing up a hill. How much does it weigh?

[happyslug]

20. Go to its website.

http://www.leitra.dk/

The technical specifications on the LEITRA are:

* Length: 195 - 205 cm (depending on the length of the legs)
* Width: 98 cm
* Height: 120 - 140 (depending on the riders height)
* Weight: 18 - 20 kg without fairing, with fairing and accessories: 28 - 30 kg
* Payload: 100 kg
* Luggage box: 100 liters
* Size of wheels: 406 mm (20")
* The seat is approx. 30 cm above the ground

Brakes: If you choose the very efficient Hope brakes the suspension (carbon fiber) is made extra strong because of the torsion forces on the front wheels. Also the angle of the steering axle are made so the tire runs in the right track.

The front mudguards are made in two different sizes: the small an cheap that protects from splash and the bigger that fully enclosed the wheels and gives an aerodynamic advantage. When driving, the top of the front wheels are moving forward in twice the speed you are driving, so by making the mudguard closed the wind resistance is minimized.

The back mudguard is enclosing the wheel on the chain side so water and mud don't dirty the chain. Leaving the other side free makes it easier for fixing a flat tire.


The luggage box is opening at the top. It can contain luggage for a vacation or for every-day shopping.

The LEITRA fairing is made in 3 different sizes:

* a normal size for people up to 1,75 meters tall
* one extra long for people with long legs, but not taller than 1,95 meters
* one extra long and extra tall for bigger people

The velomobile is delivered like this:

* Suspension: carbon fiber on the front wheels. Suspension on the rear wheel is also available.
* Brakes: drum brake on the front wheels. Hydraulic disc brake on the front wheels also available. Rim brake on the rear wheel. Here you can also get a hydraulic disc brake.
* Speed: SACHS 3x7 speed. Good in the city and a wide variation for longer trips. Other speeds, for example Rholoff's 14 speed is an alternative.
* Ventilation for removing the steam from the windscreen and cooling the rider in hot weather.
* Convex rear-view mirror.
* Strong light for driving on dark roads. Rechargeable battery.



Leitra has developed a more sporty fairing, which fits the standard Leitra trike.
It is available in middle size (for people 170 -190 cm)

Here are some pictures, witch describes it better than words:

The nose is slightly longer ...

.... and the tail is also longer and sharper.

Faster with a more aerodynamical shape -but still comfortable and practical.
(End)

30kg = 66 pounds
To convert metric to English go to:
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/weights_and_measures/index?p=weight_and_mass

[AndyTiedye]

22. Looks Nifty

Everywhere except uphill.
66 pounds would make steep hills pretty brutal.
It would get pretty hot inside there pedaling uphill anyway.
Those vents won't do much at 3 mph.

[AndyTiedye]

16. They Are Small Horses

I think they used very small horses when they came up with the unit known as "horsepower".

Nice mileage though. My venerable Moto Guzzi gets worse mileage than
my Civic Del Sol and only slightly better than my Ford Escape Hybrid,
or at least it did the last time I had it running.

It would be interesting to see what can be done with hybrid or electric
bikes and scooters.


Better stick to surface roads with that scooter.
Try going 55 on the freeways around here and you'll end up as a hood ornament on a semi.
The truck lane goes 70-75 and the other lanes are faster.

[htuttle]

21. I think horses are just geared very low -- lots of torque

...But poor acceleration compared to an internal combustion engine.

There's no way I could pull against 9.5 horses with just my scooter, but I could easily outrun them at a stop light.

[happyslug]

23. What Horse was used to define one Horsepower?:

"What type of horse was a brewery horse? In England at the time a work horse most likely would have been one of the three British "heavy breeds" – the Suffolk punch, the shire horse, and the Clydesdale."

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhorsepower.html
(Which gives a Definition of Horsepower).

Given that horsepower is a definition of POWER and the Metric definition of power is the WATT, your scooter uses 7087 watts (Or almost 71 100 watt light bulbs).

Other definitions of "Horsepower":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

[pstans]

11. Toyota's get better

I think Toyota's get better gas mileage, but Honda's are pretty good.

You could also check out VW. They have diesel cars that could run on biodiesel. They get good gas mileage anyway and with Biodiesel you use less of that damned Foriegn oil and it is more environmental friendly. They have diesel versions of the Golf, Jetta, and Passat.

https://biodiesel.org/

[rfkrfk]

15. how does a three liter Honda, only get 30 mpg highway?

I get almost that, in my V8 Mustang.

Did Honda, supersize the car's body,
to fit fat Americans?
Is this thing for sale, in Japan?

I'm sure this car is nice at the drag strip,
with most of the weight on the drive wheels.
I just don't like FWD.

[kestrel91316]

18. Hell, my 1988 Accord STILL gets over 30 mpg highway if I inflate the tires

properly and keep my speed under 70 mph.

Get-up-and-go has faded noticeably, and city mpg is poor, but I still love the old gal and when I let her go this fall it will be a sad day.

[Pooka Fey]

19. We were talking about this over in the the Peak Oil group

See my post #18 for Consumer Reports Top Ten most fuel efficient cars

Link to thread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=266&topic_id=1366&mesg_id=1366

I RARELY see cars these days getting good gas mileage like my '78 Datsun B210 sedan used to get -- I remember getting 50 mpg hwy (Yes HappySlug - it WAS 50 mpg hwy :-)!). Plus I got 168,000 miles on the original engine. Sorry everybody, who is sick of me talking about my 1st and most beloved car "Blue Lou" - named after the great tenor sax player Blue Lou Marini from the original Sat Night Live cast and the Blues Brother's band.

I don't understand why automobile fuel economy went out the window as a selling point after the problems with the "oil embargo" were "solved". Well, unless Big Oil has never REALLY had our best interests at heart...:eyes:

Then again, some guy on the "Visionary Chrystler" thread started by hatrack was saying, as of August 12, 2005 with gas at $2.50-2.60 gal/reg, and I quote here (see post #10): "The market isn't ready for fuel efficient cars just yet" :wtf: !!!