New battery technology - verified, tested... 400 mile range, 6 min charge, 90% cheaper

[True Earthling]

Talking to auto companies... Looks promising.

This Breakthrough Will Soon Slash EV Prices Drastically
Published Tue, Aug 30th, 2011 Justin Fritz

But DBM Energy’s new advanced battery – Kolibri – is constructed with a special lithium metal polymer. Early reports suggest this battery will cost 89% less than existing batteries and will only need to be replaced approximately every 20 years.

Plus, it trounces existing batteries in three other important ways…
~ Weight: A Kolibri is reportedly 29% lighter than the battery pack in a Tesla Roadster.
~ Efficiency: A Kolibri has enough power to keep an Audi (ETR: NSU) A2 cruising for an astonishing 400 miles on a single charge.
~ Charging: You can fully charge a Kolibri battery in just six minutes. The Leaf takes closer to six hours.

The potential for this new technology seems very promising and the company’s already in talks with major automakers worldwide. It foresees a mainstream rollout of its superior Kolibri battery not too far off.

http://www.wallstreetdaily.com/2011/08/30/this-breakthrough-will-soon-slash-ev-prices-drastically/

New Test Appears to Back Range Claim for Battery
By SEBASTIAN BLANCO

Which brings us to DBM Energy, Lekker Energie and their converted Audi A2, powered by a Kolibri battery, which — according to DBM — traveled 375 miles without a recharge last fall. If such exceptional range didn’t inspire skepticism on its own, the fact that the A2 test car was subsequently destroyed in a warehouse fire (while sparing the battery used in the test) surely did the trick.

The inspection organization Dekra has done independent tests for DBM and, once again, the pack seems as good as promised. In a press release, DBM said Dekra tested a 63 kilowatt-hour Kolibri battery, which uses lithium-metal-polymer battery cells, in an A2 on a chassis dynamometer. It found that the car was capable of traveling 455 kilometers, about 283 miles, on a single charge.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/new-test-appears-to-back-range-claim-for-battery/

DBM Energy's record-breaking KOLIBRI battery passes government tests

When DBM Energy made its record-breaking drive from Munich to Berlin, Germany on a single charge of the KOLIBRI Alpha Polymer battery, there was a lot of skepticism expressed. Even more so when the technology platform, an Audi A2 conversion, was lost to a mysterious fire. Undaunted, the company has moved forward and submitted cells for testing by the German Federal Institute for Materials Research and Testing (BAM). It has also had the German certification organization DEKRA conduct a range test on the latest converted Audi A2.

The results? The cells stood up to BAM's physical tests – which included burning, high altitude simulation, short circuits and other distresses – quite well. We're talking gold star, A+, definite pass. The range tests results however were not quite as revealing. The pack size in this vehicle was 62.928 kWh (as opposed to the 98 kWhs of the original) and following the ECE-R 101 guidelines was found to be capable of running the A2 on the rollers for 454.83 km (282.62 miles). Extrapolating, they found that if the battery was the original was installed, they would have achieved 714 km (443.7 miles) Not bad, right?

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/04/05/dbm-energy-record-breaking-kolibri-battery-passes-government-tests/

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. VERY interesting news...

Recommended.

[msongs]

2. another goldmine for china inc. nt

[Auggie]

4. DBM Energy is in Germany

One would think there would be strong incentive to build them there.

[Gregorian]

3. This could be the beginning of the new auto era.

Yay.

[rurallib]

5. Maybe I missed this - does it charge on a standard 110 volt system?

I hope so. Won't be much good if you need a 240 volt with a special plug.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. Anything can be adapted...

This is a technology, not a marketed product

[Nederland]

7. Not in 6 minutes it won't

The time it takes to recharge any battery is dependent on two things:

1) The rate at which the battery can absorb energy
2) The rate at which the charging circuit can deliver energy

The fact that this battery can be charged in 6 minutes is awesome, but the type of circuit you would need to actually do that is beyond anything you'll see in a standard residence. It would only be available at a location with 3 phase power, which utilities almost never even offer to residences.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

30. Whatever became of this one from Toshiba???

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/12/toshiba-launche.html

Toshiba Corporation announced the commercial launch of the SCiB—the Super Charge ion Battery—a fast-charging battery that offers excellent safety and a long-life cycle of over 10 years, even under conditions of constant rapid charging. The safety characteristics of SCiB allow recharge with a current as large as 50 amperes (A), allowing the SCiB Cell and SCiB Standard Module to recharge to 90% of full capacity in only five minutes, according to Toshiba.

[kristopher]

31. Judging by the comments at your link, energy density is non-competitive for EVs nt

[Tesha]

10. Not in 6 minutes.

On 120 volts, you'll need about 50 hours to charge
that 63 KWH battery.

If you have a 480 volt, 200 Amp three-phase industrial
circuit handy, you might manage 15 minutes.

Tesha

[TheWraith]

20. You might be overstating it a little.

Assuming a 110 volt system with a 20 amp capacity, that's 2.4 kilowatts draw. 63 KWh divided by 2.4 kilowatts is 26 hours. Now add 50% to account for inefficiency in the charging system, and you've got more like 39 hours off a standard house wire.

If you assume a 220 volt line with a 50 amp breaker, like is used for an electric dryer or hot water heater, you might be looking at more like an 8-10 hour charging time.

[Tesha]

22. The 120 volt plug is almost certainly a 5-15 (a "15 Amp" plug); you can't really count...

...on finding a 20-Amp (5-20) receptacle when you need
one and almost *NOBODY* has a 20-amp extension cord.
UL only lets appliances draw a maximum of 12 amps
continuously on a 15-amp circuit; that's why so
many "heating"-style appliances are rated 1440 Watts
instead of the 1800 Watts you might otherwise expect.


So I based my calculation on 120 VAC, 12 Amps.

That gets us 43.75 hours for 63 KWH at 100% efficiency.
I figured about 80% efficiency was a nice optimistic
guess.

Tesha

[HysteryDiagnosis]

29. A charging station that loads up some supercaps might be developed in the future. nt

[bbinacan]

8. At what speed and on what terrain

was the test done?

[Nederland]

9. Charging in 6 minutes?

I'd love to see the size of those cables. Let's do a quick calculation assuming 100% efficiency:

6 minutes = 0.1 hours
(63 kWh / 0.1) = 630kW
(630000W / 240v) = 2625 amp circuit
(630000W / 120v) = 5250 amp circuit

Given that your typical house has a main service of 150amps or maybe 200 amps, you can see we are not exactly talking about a run of the mill circuit.

The bottom line is that even if they have achieved 100% battery efficiency, charging time at a person's home will not be any different from any other car with a similar size battery pack. The limit has become how much energy the circuit can deliver.

[oldhippie]

16. This engineer isn't buying a 630kW chemical reaction .....

.... over 6 minutes (what it would take for the battery to absorb the charge) without some massive cooling and protective features that would be prohibitive outside a major industrial facility. Certainly not in a residential garage. Even if you could get the 480V 3 phase at sufficient current to your garage, slamming that amount of energy into a chemical reaction in that amount of time just boggles my mind. I wouldn't want it going on in my neighborhood.

Color me skeptical.

[kristopher]

18. Perhaps you should read post 13.

No one is proposing such chargers for home installation.

[oldhippie]

26. And if I can't charge my electric car in my home ....

.... I'm not going to have one. So, even if this 6 minute charging is supposed to be at some equivalent to a service station, I still would want to see a lot more info on the effects of cramming that amount of energy into a vehicle size battery pack, over a six minute span, starting with some thermo data.

[kristopher]

27. Apparently you still haven't read post 13.

[Occulus]

40. Isn't that kind of like saying you won't buy a car if you

can't have your own personal gas pump?

If they charge that quickly, couldn't you just go to a charging station and swap out the battery for a freshie? Charging speeds that are that fast makes a battery swap service commercially viable.

[oldhippie]

58. I don't need a gas pump in my garage ....

... as a couple of 5 gal cans will do nicely in an emergency.

If the battery can charge quickly (6 min) why bother to swap out the battery? I never liked the idea of a battery swap as you don't know the condition or history of the battery you are getting. You could get 50 miles away from the "swap station" and find out that the previous users had abused the battery and it only has 40% of it's rated charge available. Nope, I'd rather keep track of my own battery.

[wtmusic]

19. The battery's probably a hoax, but their PR is golden.

"DBM Energy GmbH is a mailbox company.

DBM’s website states as contact a non-registered entity named DBM Headquarters, which is located in a smallish office building. In that office building, there are several small-sounding firms such as a long-term storage company, a fire-extinguisher company, and a “battery-service” company.

Google DBM and you find exactly two hits. One refers to DBM having won an “Innovation Award of Reason”. Nobody’s heard of that, either."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/10/the-berlin-miracle-or-just-another-ev-hoax/

[TheWraith]

21. Good info, there. nt

[kristopher]

24. I got 33000 hits with DBM Energy GmbH in quotes.

[kristopher]

25. One of those hits is from BAM's website

2010-10-26
Demonstration project of the Federal Economics Ministry sets long-range world record for e-vehicles: 600 km non-stop
Innovative battery technology from Germany close to breakthrough

Federal Minister Rainer Brüderle with Dr. Thomas Mecke, lekker Energie GmbH, Mirko Hannemann, DBM-Energy GmbH, and Stefan Ritter, The Mobility House GmbH Deutschland
© BMWi

The Berlin-based company DBM Energy set a new long-range world record for e-vehicles in the night of 25-26 October 2010 as part of a demonstration project supported by the Federal Ministry of Economics and Technology. Accompanied by Economics Ministry staff, a converted Audi A2 managed to drive from Munich to Berlin (600 km) in roughly 7 hours without recharging. Weather conditions were far from ideal, with temperatures close to freezing point.

Rainer Brüderle, Federal Minister of Economics and Technology, stated: "I congratulate the young technology enterprise DBM Energy on this marvellous success! Our support for this pioneering achievement has fully paid off. The new long-range world record shows that an e-vehicle can cope with distances of 600 km. No other e-car in the world has achieved anything comparable yet. The battery technology developed in Germany has the potential to place our country at the forefront of e-mobility. It is now important for this highly efficient battery technology to go into serial production in Germany and to become available for widespread use in e-vehicles."

The electric car is fitted with a new type of high-performance battery based on a lithium-metal polymer from DBM Energy, as well as a smart battery management system. The vehicle - like conventional mid-range cars - has four proper seats, a boot and normal conveniences (air-conditioning, radio/CD player, etc.). The logistics sector has been successfully using DBM Energy's battery technology for a year now.

http://www.bmwi.de/English/Navigation/Press/press-releases,did=367312.html

[True Earthling]

56. 700V/550A fast DC charger...

charges a 25kWh battery 80% in 10 minutes...

http://evsolutions.avinc.com/uploads/products/2_AV_EV250-PS_061110_public_high.pdf

[hunter]

11. I'd hate to see a 6 minute charging failure.

Ooooops. Sorry. Bad cable. We exploded your car.

Of course gasoline cars blow up too, so maybe this will simply be the new normal.

[Tesha]

23. Remember, that battery isn't charging at 100% efficiency so there's a lot of heat being evolved.

I'll bet there would have to be some impressive cooling
system or you really would see exploding (or at least
"venting") batteries.

Tesha

[True Earthling]

47. It's 97% efficient according to tests...

Charged by a high voltage DC source.

[Tesha]

48. No way José!

Lithium-ion battery cycle efficiency is about 80-90%
(so if we assume it's symmetrical for charge and dis-
charge, that's about 3-6 KWH of heat being evolved
in the recharge portion of the cycle).

If you think this new battery manages 97%, you're
going to need to provide a citation proving that
that's possible.

Tesha

[True Earthling]

49. "97% efficient" says German Federal Institute of Material Research and Testing (BAM)

according to this press release... PDF file download... http://goo.gl/P4tSs


"The peak speed measurement during the 30-minute maximum speed
segment was 100 km/h. The required condition of covering a distance of
300 km within 7 days was met in one session on a roller dynamometer,
indicating a range of 454.83 kilometers with the 62,928 kWh LMP battery.
Adjusted for the battery capacity of 98 kWh at the time of the worldwide
range record, the range would have been 714 km. The efficiency of the
LMP battery was determined to be at 97%."

[wtmusic]

53. No, "97% efficient" says Mirko Hanemann.

Do you have any sources which are not press releases or interviews with Hanemann?

[Tesha]

54. Somehow, I'd like something a little better than a press release from the developers

even if it does claim that someone else did the
measurement; the physics simply don't support
what they're claiming.

Tesha

[madokie]

12. I think what they're saying is that the battery by design is capable of recharging in 6 minutes

I think someone reporting on this took some liberties with some words and came up with the 6 minute figure. Its hard to believe that someone who has developed a battery such as this is supposed to be would make a mistake like that.
So in other words we're discussing anything but the real battery technology

[kristopher]

13. Information to understand rapid recharge capability

Charging stations

Standards
...In SAE terminology, 240 volt AC charging is known as level 2 charging, and 500 volt DC high-current charging is known as DC Fast Charge. Owners can install a level 2 charging station at home, while businesses and local government provide level 2 and DC Fast Charge public charging stations that supply electricity for a fee or free.

The International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) modes are similar:
"Mode 1" - slow charging from a regular electrical socket (single or 3-phase)
"Mode 2" - slow charging from a regular socket but which equipped with some EV specific protection arrangement (e.g. the Park & Charge or the PARVE systems)
"Mode 3" - slow or fast charging using a specific EV multi-pin socket with control and protection functions (e.g. SAE J1772 and IEC 62196)
"Mode 4" - fast charging using some special charger technology...

Much more at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station

Blink DC Fast Charger

The Blink DC Fast Charger delivers the fastest EV charging rate currently available and is capable of providing a full charge in less than 30 minutes. The DC Fast Charger is perfect for high-traffic commercial locations, fleets installations, gas stations, and at locations along major transportation corridors. The Blink DC Fast Charger is classified as a DC (480 volt 3-Phase AC input) charging station. With the Blink DC Fast Charger, EV owners can rest assured they can drive anywhere, without limitations, and charge quickly and conveniently; topping-off as needed, without time constraints...

http://www.blinknetwork.com/chargers-commercial-dc-fast.html

One Size Fits All: A Combo Plug That Can Handle Fast Charging

Everybody knows that electric car charging will mostly be done at home with 240-volt Level 2 units in the garage. At best, it’s four hours, and often an all-night plug-in. But public fast charging at 480 volts promises more—a full charge in half an hour. It’s still not a five-minute gas fill-up, but it’s tantalizingly close.

Some 480-volt DC chargers have started to appear as part of federally supported charging programs, and in state highway corridors on the west coast. If battery EVs are ever going to be for more than local transportation, then they'll need quick charging options along major travel routes--hence the Washington and Oregon programs.

The problem is that we’re still arguing about how fast charging is going to work. The process of choosing between the existing Japanese CHAdeMO standard from Tokyo Electric Power and a new made-in-America solution has dragged out beyond the actual rollout of electric cars. And so by default cars like the LEAF (in the SL version) and the 2012 Mitsubishi i have been equipped with CHAdeMO, and Toyota’s Scion iQ is likely to get it, too. On LEAFs with fast charging, there are separate 240- and 480-volt outlets under the nose flap. The Mitsubishis have the outlets on either side of the car.

But now it looks like the American governing body, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), is going the other way and has unveiled a prototype “combo” plug that updates the standard J1772 connector to also include 480-volt fast charging. One plug for all charging. Ultimately, that will prove the right solution—who wants to remember if the fast charging is on the left or right?

http://www.plugincars.com/one-size-fits-all-combo-plug-can-handle-fast-charging-107655.html

Walgreens Chooses DC Fast Charging Where It Can

DC fast charging is coming to a location near you—and maybe sooner than you think.


If you own a national chain and you’re thinking about putting in electric vehicle chargers, you might want to give Walgreens a call.

The pharmacy has already learned a thing or two about electric vehicle chargers as it continues the process of installing 800 by the end of this year. For starters, the technology doesn’t have to be flashy, because people are using charge station finders in their car or on their smart phone -- rather than driving around aimlessly looking for signs that say “charge here.” Second, it doesn’t have to be right next to the door, but it also gets expensive if it’s too far away from the electrical room. Lastly, 480-volt DC charging is the way to go -- if you can get it.

Even just a year ago, DC fast charging, which can cut a full charge time from about four hours (level 2) to as little as fifteen minutes, seemed like a luxury that would be off in the future while level 2 (240V) would dominate the scene in the short term. Today, the bulk of chargers, both public and private, are 240V. But there are hundreds of DC chargers coming online in the next six months to a year. There will be 400 installed by ECOtality as part of the EV Project, and ABB recently acquired the Dutch company Epyon B.V. for fast charging.

Walgreens first got interested in offering...

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/walgreen-chooses-dc-fast-charging-where-it-can/

[Justina For Justice]

14. Great! Can I Use It In My Cell Phone Too? n/t

[wtmusic]

15. This "news" has been out since April

and is now being re-released by The Wall Street Daily, a product of White Cap Investment Group, LLC?

"What is the inside story of the White Cap Research Group?
The White Cap Research Group is comprised of a team of renowned experts, who boast almost 80 years of stock market experience between them. All have developed their own unique trading analysis and systems, and will teach you how to apply the same high-level (yet easy-to-understand) techniques that the pros use every day to claim profits in both rising and sinking markets.

Their aggressive marketing looks almost counter-productive for a subscription service; it smells more like a boiler-room in disguise."

http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-inside-story-of-the-White-Cap-Research-Group

Do we get to see the Dekra test results, or just DBM's press release? A ripe odor accompanies this entire schtick.

[bvar22]

17. This has potential FAR beyond just Electric Cars.

The Achilles Heel of Solar Panels is the lack of an acceptable energy storage capability.

I would LOVE to see the development of light weight, safe, inexpensive, quick charge batteries to use in conjunction with Solar Panels.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

28. A battery pack on every home feeding into and out of the grid, perrrrrrfect. n/t

[bvar22]

32. I installed a 750 Watt Array on our Houseboat in Minnesota in 2002.

I loved the panels,
but HATED the ton of Lead/Acid batteries I had to put along the keel.

We moved to a cabin in rural Arkansas in 2006.
Our Electric Co-Op has no capacity for Sell Back,
and we're not going to put a bunch of Lead/Acid batteries on our little place,
so we are concentrating on Passive Efficiency,
and planning on installing a Solar Hot Water heater this Fall.

We are eagerly awaiting for the development of inexpensive, environmentally safe, electrical storage
so we can have panels again,
OR for the Co-Op to implement a system where we can sell excess power to The Grid.

I am glad there is some much development activity for Electric cars.
It won't be long before we can salvage something from a wreck.
:hippie:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

33. Might I suggest that you look into either this one or a smaller version of the same.

http://panasonic.net/ha/e/FC/index.htm

[kristopher]

34. A fuel cell is a device to recover stored energy.

Where does the stored energy come from for this $36,000 piece of equipment delivering a maximum of 750W?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

35. It had better not be 36k..... didn't see that they need to bring that down to around 12k

and then people can begin talking about it. The stored energy can come from natural gas and since this will produce both hot water and electricity it is greener than most methods of producing energy. Sorry about the price I thought it was a little more sane than that and 750 watts seems like a misprint, 7.5 kw seems more like it.

[kristopher]

37. It isn't a misprint.

Do you remember the pricing structure of the Bloom Box? They offer some advantages but when it is said and done the balance is (IMO) largely determined by the fact that, like solar, you have a high up front cost - but then with the fuel cell you still have to pay for fuel.

I think we'll see a grid tied solar at all levels and lots of large wind turbines. Both directly produce electricity, which is arguably the most versatile energy carrier of all. If CHP fuel cell units are able to be part of the mix I think it is great, but I don't believe they will be able to compete at the home level. I'd expect to see a lot of them in light industrial and commercial however. They can be a very valuable addition to a distributed grid.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

38. Please see this thread or at least this post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=309923&mesg_id=309931

[kristopher]

39. Perhaps you should read this article

http://fuelcellsworks.com/news/2011/02/09/tokyo-gas-and-panasonic-to-launch-new-improved-“ene-farm”-home-fuel-cell-with-world-highest1-generation-efficiency-at-more-affordable-price/

With greater efficiency in the “stacks” which generate electricity and other improvements, the rated generation efficiency has been raised to 40% – the world’s highest generation efficiency for a household fuel cell co-generation system(1).
The improvement in the durability of “stacks” and “fuel-processing device” which produces hydrogen from the city gas allows the operation of 50,000 hours, up 25% from the conventional model. This enhancement in generation efficiency and durability makes it possible to retain the same energy-saving and CO2 reduction effects as the conventional model, but with the rated generation capacity reduced from 1.0kW to 750W. In addition, the lower limit of the generation output has been changed from 300W for the previous model to 250W for an operation on a basis of the recent trend of lowering standby power consumption in energy-saving home appliances.

The new “Ene-Farm” fuel cell offers a rated generation efficiency of 40% (LHV)(5), representing a further improvement on the existing range of products with over 37% (LHV) efficiency, the highest in the world to date(1). The system configuration of “fuel cell unit” has been greatly simplified and the core components such as the “stacks” which generate electricity have been significantly downsized. These cost-saving efforts have allowed Tokyo Gas and Panasonic to significantly lower the recommended retail price of the new system to 2,761,500 yen (including tax; excluding installation fee), a saving of as much as around 700,000 yen compared to the current models.

Since the launch of the world’s first “Ene-Farm” products in May 2009 through January 2011, Panasonic has shipped a total of approximately 5,000 units throughout Japan, of which approximately 4,000 have been sold by Tokyo Gas. For Fiscal Year 2012 ending in March 2012 (FY2012), Panasonic will set up a production system to expand the annual capacity more than 6,000 units(6), double its production estimate for FY2011. At the same time, Tokyo Gas will aim for annual sales of 5,000 units, double the FY2011 sales target of 2,500 units.


2,761,500 yen at current exchange rate of about 77 yen per dollar = $36K+

Edited to add: not sure how the operating profile looks for this system, but 24/7 eats up 50,000 hours in 5.7 years.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

36. This is better and I hope it is doing well, imagine taking the nations households and

commercial buildings from 44% efficiency to 85% efficiency on energy usage... imagine that if you will.


http://www.plugpower.com/News/PressReleases/09-07-07/PLUG_POWER_RECEIVES_AWARD_TO_OPERATE_RESIDENTIAL_GENSYS_FUEL_CELLS_IN_NEW_YORK_STATE_HOMES.aspx

LATHAM, NY – July 7, 2009 – Plug Power Inc. (NASDAQ: PLUG), a leader in providing clean, reliable energy solutions today announced that they have received a $1.4 million award from the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA) to install and operate three combined heat and power (CHP) GenSys® fuel cell systems in New York State homes. These systems will allow Plug Power to validate and enhance product features in preparation for broad scale product commercialization. The first system is scheduled to be installed this summer with all three units expected to be operational this year.

A residential GenSys unit will be installed in the basement of each home and will operate in conjunction with the electric grid, running on natural gas. The fuel cell will produce electricity and high-quality heat to satisfy the home’s heating and domestic hot water demands. Plug Power estimates that GenSys will save the homeowner approximately 30% on their monthly utility bill.

The GenSys solution is expected to achieve an overall combined efficiency of 85%. Currently, homes utilizing grid electricity and typical heating systems average 44% household efficiency. “This increased efficiency level yields an annual CO2 reduction roughly equivalent to not driving your car for six months,” said Mark Sperry, Vice President of Plug Power’s Continuous Power Division. “The residential GenSys solution will allow for tremendous reductions in monthly energy bills and greenhouse gas emissions.”

[happyslug]

41. Thought about water storage?

Water Storage of electricity is basically using excess electric power to pump water up to a water tank, then releasing that water though a water generator when electricity is needed more than what the Solar panels can produced.

This is done on a large scale in Virginia. The local power company uses excess electricity to pump water uphill behind a dam, then when more power is needed the water is released through generators.

This is based on the fact that the quickest method of electric generation to turn on and off, is water generation (hand generation is as fast, but not that extensive, water is faster then turning on coal, nuclear, or even natural gas generators).

[bvar22]

50. Yes... believe me.

I spend my days figuring new ways to withhold funds from the Corporate Overlords & War machine,
and make our place as independent and sustainable as possible.

The problem with using Solar Panels to pump water into a Stand Tank during the day,
and then using the Stand Pressure to power a turbine at night are many.

*For this to be workable, two very LARGE storage tanks would be necessary, a Stand Tank and a Catch Basin of matching capacity, and the elevation of the Stand Tank would need to be 30' - 60' or so.

A large Solar Array would be required to pump that much water to that height every day.

*The Initial cost of the system is HIGH, even using salvaged parts where possible,
and the system is bulky.

*The Losses due to friction (fluid dynamics), and multiple energy conversions are high.
(You don't get something for nothing.)

*The water freezes in the Winter.
(This is the "biggie".)

*If I add anti-freeze, the water becomes toxic and can't be used for other purposes.

I considered trying this, but after a few minutes making sketches and a parts list,
I talked myself out of it. If I could figure a way around the freezing in Winter problem,
and somebody could give me a 2 BIG galvanized water tanks and the supporting structure,
and the water in the Stand Tank could also be used to pressure the household plumbing,
it might be feasible, and would be very cool indeed.

But until safe, light weight, efficient, long lasting, inexpensive batteries are developed,
or our Rural Grid implements a Buy Back system,
the most practical avenue for us is Efficiency/Conservation and a Solar Hot Water System...
for now.

One of the lessons I DID learn living on a boat with a 750 Watt Solar Array was,
"If everybody lived as if they were on Solar Panels,
we wouldn't need Solar Panels.
Living on Solar Panels is a great way to develop Energy Consumption Consciousness.
Everyone who lives on Solar Panels naturally becomes an Energy Miser.

Solar Clothes Dryer


Cost = 0 (Salvaged parts)

Energy Consumption = 0

Toxic Emissions = 0

Money transferred to Corporate Overlords = 0

Taxes paid to fund Bank Bailouts and More WARS = 0

Satisfaction = Priceless

[hunter]

55. "If everybody lived as if they were on Solar Panels, we wouldn't need Solar Panels..."

Every time I do the math it works out like that.

Once I cut my energy use to the point where I could afford solar panels, there's no point having solar panels.

For ten bucks a month I get the meter, a whole lot of electricity, and I wouldn't have to worry about &^$$^%$#%$# batteries, payments on the solar panels, falling off my roof, or anything else.

Batteries &^$$^%$#%$# suck, and I don't see any batteries on the horizon that don't suck. Maybe we get some batteries that suck less than fossil fuel engines, but that bar is pretty low.

[True Earthling]

42. Charges in 6 minutes using "high voltage DC source"

"The battery uses DBM Energy's KOLIBRI AlphaPolymer Technology said to be 97 percent efficient and chargeable from virtually any socket -- plug it into a high voltage DC source and it can be fully charged in just six minutes according to the car's driver and battery inventor, Mirko Hannemann. "

http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/27/dbm-energys-electric-audi-a2-completes-record-setting-372-mile/

[True Earthling]

43. Interview with inventor... turned down 600M euro offer from Samsung

Translated from German... http://goo.gl/Jguo1

[True Earthling]

44. Will become public company.. x-BMW and x-Daimler execs on mgt team

another German translation...

http://goo.gl/uwB2g

[True Earthling]

45. Press release from DBM with more details...

PDF file... http://goo.gl/P4tSs

[True Earthling]

46. 3 battery converted Audi A2's are being independently tested...

another (rough) German translation... http://goo.gl/nQKlj

[True Earthling]

51. Another Lithium Polymer battery company - SEEO

Some big venture firms backing this one... Google and Khosla Ventures are investors...



Today's lithium-ion batteries use lithium cobalt oxide electrodes and a liquid electrolyte, typically lithium salts dissolved in an organic solvent. The electrode material can release oxygen when overcharged or punctured, causing the flammable solvent to catch fire and the battery to explode. Besides, "the charged electrodes are very reactive with the liquid electrolyte, which reduces power and ," says Khalil Amine, manager of the advanced battery technology group at Argonne National Laboratory.

Seeo's key breakthrough is a solid polymer electrolyte. It is not flammable and hence inherently safer. In addition, the battery will retain more of its capacity over time because the polymer does not react with the charged electrode. "Lifetime data suggests that conventional lithium-ion systems lose about 40 percent capacity in 500 cycles," says Mohit Singh, the cofounder of Seeo. "We get a much better cycle life. We can go through 1,000 cycles with less than 5 percent capacity loss."

For the negative electrode, or anode, the electrolyte also works with lithium metal films, which are lighter than current anode materials. That means the battery can provide more energy for the same weight. Based on the battery's single cell, Seeo has calculated that it would have an energy density of up to 300 watt-hours per kilogram, which is 50 percent greater than lithium-ion batteries that are on the market today.

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22351/?a=f

[wtmusic]

52. Maybe you should check the date on these articles before you post.

I've already got 4,000 miles on my lithium-polymer-powered Nissan Leaf.

[True Earthling]

57. I saw the date...I couldn't find any articles on SEEO that were more up to date.

I was just pointing out the company SEEO has a similar battery in the works.

What kind of range do you get on the Leaf? How long does it take to charge?

[wtmusic]

59. In real-world driving, I get about 70 miles of range.

100 miles would be staying off of highways and using ECO mode, which limits acceleration.

It takes 7 hours to charge at 220V, but I've never run it all the way down. An onboard timer starts it charging at 11:30 PM then stops when it's 80% full, which supposedly extends battery life.

All in all I'm very happy. Great pickup, zero vibration, silent. Like driving a cloud.