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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 09:34 AM
Original message
New Saudi Arabias of solar energy: Himalaya Mountains, Andes, Antarctica
http://portal.acs.org/portal/acs/corg/content?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=PP_ARTICLEMAIN&node_id=223&content_id=CNBP_028434&use_sec=true&sec_url_var=region1&__uuid=e38a6bf8-019a-4eeb-bf14-4439401a1ae1

New Saudi Arabias of solar energy: Himalaya Mountains, Andes, Antarctica

http://pubs.acs.org/stoken/presspac/presspac/full/10.1021/es200635x">Effect of Temperature on PV Potential in the World”
Environmental Science & Technology

Mention prime geography for generation of solar energy, and people tend to think of hot deserts. But a new study concludes that some of the world's coldest landscapes — including the Himalaya Mountains, the Andes, and even Antarctica — could become Saudi Arabias of solar. The research appears in the ACS journal Environmental Science & Technology.

Kotaro Kawajiri and colleagues explain that the potential for generating electricity with renewable solar energy depends heavily on geographic location. Arid and semi-arid areas with plenty of sunshine long have been recognized as good solar sites. However, the scientists point out that, as a result of the limited data available for critical weather-related conditions on a global scale, gaps still exist in knowledge about the best geographical locations for producing solar energy. To expand that knowledge, they used one established technique to estimate global solar energy potential using the data that are available. The technique takes into account the effects of temperature on the output of solar cells. Future work will consider other variables, such as transmission losses and snow fall.

As expected, they found that many hot regions such as the U.S. desert southwest are ideal locations for solar arrays. However, they also found that many cold regions at high elevations receive a lot of sunlight — so much so that their potential for producing power from the sun is even higher than in some desert areas. Kawajiri and colleagues found, for instance, that the Himalayas, which include Mt. Everest, could be an ideal locale for solar fields that generate electricity for the fast-expanding economy of the People's Republic of China.

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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Are we going to build transmission lines from Fort McMurdow to Sydney?
Crisscrossing the Himalayas with transmission lines to China? Really?

Why don't we just say we could solve our fossil fuel shortages by simply importing hydrocarbons from Titan?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Solar energy scares nuclear supporters silly.
That pretty much puts to bed the myth the industry promotes that its support is based on the desire for the best solution to climate change.

700 Climate Action NGOs criticize Japan for promoting nuclear power
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20111004p2g00m0dm048000c.html


The mapping being done in the OP is gravy:

Renewable energy can power the world, says landmark IPCC study
UN's climate change science body says renewables supply, particularly solar power, can meet global demand

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/may/09/ipcc-renewable-energy-power-world


Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Full Special Report on Renewable Energy
Download here: http://srren.ipcc-wg3.de/report/IPCC_SRREN_Full_Report
Dial-up warning - 28MB

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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. This isn't about anyone being scared of nuclear power
It's about how realistic (or unrealistic) it is to talk about getting solar power from ANTARCTICA?

What the OP has to do with nuclear power, I have no idea :shrug:
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. The OP is about mapping global solar potential, not developing it
The nuclear connection is the expected attempt by unwavering NUCLEAR PROPONENTS to deride renewable energy. That is their right, but it is equally valid to contrast their negative view with what they consider to be the positive alternative. Are you saying their history of slamming and providing false information about renewables isn't relevant?

Here is the sentiment behind their posts as expressed by another nuclear proponent:
"I've taken on the real anti-nuke and renewable powerhouses. We're beating back the ones at DOE. Thanks to the Solyndra scandal we got DOE's chief "greenie" Jonathan Silver to resign. If the Congress keeps the pressure on, then we have a shot at clearing out the "renewables rats" that have infested DOE. If we can clear them out, we can shutdown the subsidies to the so-called "greenie" "solutions". We won't be wasting any more of the taxpayers money on "greenie" solutions that are going nowhere. If we can kill their subsidies for a year or two, they'll die on the vine."
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. So we're mapping solar potential in Antarctica and the Himalayas for fun now?
Where is the "expected attempt by unwavering NUCLEAR PROPONENTS to deride renewable energy" in this thread? Pointing out that solar potential in very, very remote areas is unfeasible due to massive transmission line requirements doesn't poo-poo the potential of developing solar energy in areas much closer to populated areas.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Comprehensive (do you know the word?) resource assessments are a fundamental step in a process
Do you claim knowledge of the ultimate value of this information? If not, given your history of anti-renewable pronuclear postings, your ridicule is hard to see in any positive light.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Nah... they really aren't
No more than scoring all the oil in place that no known technology (or anticipated technology) has the ability to recover... let alone economically.

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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. LOL, sure Kris
Edited on Thu Oct-13-11 12:28 PM by NickB79
You have a problem seeing why I ridicule the idea of establishing large-scale solar power installations in ANTARCTICA? Seriously?

And please spare me your anti-renewable, pronuclear accusations again. We've danced this dance before, and you're always failed to substantiate that claim of me (which makes sense, seeing as I'm PRO-SOLAR and PRO-WIND, and have repeatedly stated I'm agnostic on nuclear at best). That's just boilerplate for anyone that disagrees with you.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. You really don't understand, do you?
Anyone who holds any position apart from "100% renewables by next Wednesday" is really a shill for the nuclear power industry whether they admit it or not. It isn't possible to support rapid expansion of nuclear, wind, solar, and hydro and rapid retirement of fossil-fuel generation.

You much be hiding your true motivation.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. No, it is an accurate description of the message you communicate
I don't usually bother with this sort of discussion, but I will this time. You wrote, "...spare me your anti-renewable, pronuclear accusations again. We've danced this dance before, and you're always failed to substantiate that claim of me (which makes sense, seeing as I'm PRO-SOLAR and PRO-WIND, and have repeatedly stated I'm agnostic on nuclear at best)."

Anyone who reads your posts over time knows that is complete nonsense.

I googled "NickB79 Energy" and this is typical of what was in a random selection from half of the first 20 hits:

1) You claim that a distributed renewable grid maintains corporate control over energy just like nuclear. That is false, Nick. The present structure based on fuels creates a bottleneck where competition cannot be brought to bear. The concept is explained fully in the thread, but you don't want to hear it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x104767#104878


2) In 2007 you wrote, " I want meaningful solutions, not greenwashing. Instead of waiting a few centuries for renewables to start making a difference, I agree with many other posters here that we should a) conserve like hell, and b) build more scalable energy-generating facilities (cough, nuclear, cough, cough).
But if you want to be all roses and sunshine about wind producing only 0.6% of world energy demand after 20 years of intense development, be my guest."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x122585

Renewables deploy faster and for less money than nuclear, Nick.


3) You hijack a positive renewable thread about Saudi Arabia installing 5 GW of solar to focus on an obvious typo.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x293083


4) You defending nuclear:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x290797


5) You try to help smear Germany for moving away from nuclear:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x308535#308595


6) And the final sample for the guy that is "agnostic on nuclear at best":
". Nuclear is the only choice we have left
Like it or not, nuclear is the lesser of two evils. That or coal are the only two power sources left on this planet that could replace oil at the moment. I say nuclear is the lesser of the two evils because coal produces more toxic waste per day in this country than nuclear does in an entire year, and the nuclear waste is far more easily contained than the soot, CO2 and waste ash from coal-fired plants. Wind, solar and biomass are all excellent ways to reduce our dependancy on fossil fuels or nuclear, but to put all your hope in them as replacements to oil is sadly overly optimistic. Even if our demand for energy doesn't increase in the future (it more than likely will increase), without massive technological advancements in solar cells and wind farms, they will be unable to supply us with the required energy. This subject has been discussed thoroughly on the Environment Board, and there are numerous threads there to browse through. Honestly, I don't like the idea of nuclear power plants near my home, or anyone else's. My college physics professor told us years ago that by the time we were his age we'd be relying on nuclear for more than 50% of our energy needs, and I scoffed at the idea. But, after reading up on the subject of Peak Oil and life after we no longer have cheap oil-based fuels, there doesn't appear to be any alternative. I only pray they perfect fusion reactors, but they've been saying they're 20 yrs away from a working fusion reactor for the past 40 yrs now.

- NickB79
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x352957


Now lets bring it back to the current thread. The OP is about a global resource assessment for solar that is looking at a landscape that has previously been ignored. It is a basic comprehensive assessment, not a development plan.

In fact, such basic work is crucial to good planning; let me give an example to show why. The US turned to renewables under Carter as a response to the Arab Oil Embargoes of the 70s. The first thing that was accomplished in this effort was a basic, comprehensive resource assessment. The results showed that the US had a good amount of solar potential, but very little wind. We therefore crafted policies designed to promote solar and placed very little emphasis on wind. Progress on solar was slow and come Ronny Ray-gun the entire policy approach was nearly abandoned.

After Ray-gun gutted the renewables program people had time on their hands and around the mid 80s, in reviewing the work that had been done to date, someone noticed that the early wind resource assessment on which Carter's policies had been based was accomplished using the best wind data available at the time. Unfortunately, that wind data was mostly collected at the nation's airports - all located by design in areas of the lowest winds that were locally available.

We had made a substantial blunder. Given the capabilities of existing technologies, if we had focused on wind in those early days of OPEC motivated renewable development, it is very possible that results could have been delivered that would have made abandoning the renewable efforts much more difficult politically.

These types of studies might seem pointless and stupid to someone predisposed to looking at renewables as pointless and stupid, but the fact is they are crucial to our future. Neother you nor I know what might come of this work. But without it, it is certain that any possible good will never materialize.

Your attempt to ridicule it as if it were a mindless development proposal is nothing more than a hijacking of the thread and given your past posting history, seems designed to turn people away from the subject.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Might impact construction costs a bit
Transmission costs obviously "climb" too.

And while cooler temperatures can make PV more efficient... well... I hear it snows there once in awhile and that might be a derate factor.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Those areas are pretty arid and sunny.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. Map of Himalayas and India
The mountains are in reasonably close proximity to high population areas.




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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-11 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thank you for the post, I may use it in some research I'm doing.
Photo-Voltaic efficiency is very dependent of temperature. When designing a PV system the peak power output to design for is not in the summer but winter when its cold.

Many high mountain ranges have a rain shadow....one side will have rain forest and the other will be a desert.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
15. Let's turn the entire Himalaya mountains
into a vast wasteland with some solar panels so that China can take 4 coal plants offline.

Say NO to the industrialization of wild lands.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Hmmm ...
Wonder if the wide-spread application of the OP article stupidity
would eventually lead to a "silicon-gallium anomaly" to be identified
in a further 65 million years ...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_anomaly

This boundary is marked by a major extinction event,
... about 70% of all other species.

:hide:
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