Excuses for NOT wanting an electric car - and the truths that will change your mind

[txlibdem]

This is an expansion of a post in another thread:

"The Leaf takes 225 to 350 watt-hours to drive one mile

Watt hours. NOT kilo Watt hours such as you see on your electric bill. One kiloWatt hour will allow the Leaf to drive between 2.85 to 4 miles.

So ONE 230 watt solar panel placed almost anywhere in the USA will move the Leaf up to 4 miles per day."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=314041&mesg_id=314334

Some people are frightened about range anxiety. I guess I'll never understand that because I know pretty much how many miles I drive in a day so I can choose the electric car that has a big enough battery pack to go farther than I need.

What are your favorite (or most propagandized) excuses against owning an electric car? And include the answer to it as well if you can...

[buddysmellgood]

1. Most people drive less than 40 miles per day. Lead acid batteries can handle that.

I think people are afraid the batteries will fail and they'll be stranded or it will be expensive to replace them.

[TheWraith]

27. Lead acid batteries aren't very practical.

They're FAR heavier than the alternatives, as well as having a worse performance curve in cold weather than Lithium Ion. And with Li Ion getting cheaper, there's really less and less reason not to use those. Plus, lead-acid batteries preclude having cars with better ranges, meaning that using them would codify electric vehicles as being a "commuter only" item, not suitable to longer trips.

[txlibdem]

31. But you have to admit that it *is* "doable" with lead-acid batteries.

More specifically deep cell such as SLA and AGM batteries which are maintenance free and with a good charger will last longer; a 3 or 4 stage charger will allow all the batteries to come up to the same charge level that is so critical for an EV. Also, the real killer for lead acid batteries, and Lithium, is to discharge it till it's dead. That may kill the battery after just a few occurrences, or it might just take one.

I was on the cusp of buying a hunk of junk off ebay or craigslist and converting to electric using the info described in the above paragraph. Then I got disabled and could no longer work, went through my savings in lightning speed. So that was that on the electric vehicle project.

PS, I wouldn't try a 40 mile commute if your batteries are rated and you've calculated that it would do 40 miles. Better to go for a little overkill like 50 mile range or 60 miles if you can fit all those batteries in there somewhere. Lead acid batteries do not like the cold, either. So you must either provide a battery warmer or accept a reduced range in coldish temperatures.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

2. so how does that compare to the cost of gas? Are they pretty much

out for going on a long trip? It's not like there are "gas" stations for getting electricity.

[txlibdem]

13. Cost of "fuel" is much less

The exact amount you'd pay will depend on how much you pay per kWh versus how many miles per gallon your vehicle gets. I can give you my info and let you see how to figure the costs for you.

1. I pay 11.9 cents per kWh for electricity, the "fuel" for an electric car
2. We drive 40 miles per day or less
3. Gasbuddy says gas here costs $3.33 (lowest cost for regular unleaded)
4. My wife loves to start off fast and not slow to a stop till the last minute (but other than that she drives relatively sensibly)
5. She gets 22 miles per gallon in her vehicle.

So, given all of that, I figure that she will get closer to the 70 miles on the highway and probably close to 85 on the side streets were she driving a Nissan Leaf today. The Leaf has a 24kWh battery pack but you can only use 90% of that, 21kWh let's say (the limit is there to protect the lifespan of the battery). Using those figures 70/30 + 85/10 and 21kWh we can find the exact cost of a day's drive for my wife:

Leaf Per charge:
Streets = 85
Highway = 70
Average = 85+70 / 2 = 77.5 miles per charge on average

Leaf Cost per day:
Cost to drive 77.5 miles = 21 * $.119 = $2.50
Cost to drive 40 miles = $2.50 * (40 / 77.5) = $2.50 * .52 = $1.30 per day

Her gas vehicle cost per day:
How many gallons per day = (40 / 22) = 1.8
Cost to drive 40 miles = 1.8 * $3.33 = $5.99 per day

Gas car is much more expensive to drive, 4.6 times as much. That means that instead of driving her car that gets 22 miles per gallon, she'd have to have a car that gets 101.2 mpg in order to equal the cost savings for "fuel."

[RC]

19. Throw in the initial cost of the vehicle and which costs more over a 10 year life span?

Not being snarky here, but that is part of the cost of operating a vehicle also. I keep my cars for 10 to 14 years before replacing them.

[txlibdem]

25. Snark is okay with me (I can dish it and take it)

To be perfectly honest, I recommend leasing your first electric car anyway so that you can get used to it with no 10-year obligation. The Nissan Leaf 2012 model is now $379 per month as a lease, I expect the other vehicles to be about the same.

Isn't that close to the monthly car payment you would expect for a comparably equipped gasoline or diesel car?

The battery improvements that are expected to arrive by 2015 will make electric vehicles cheaper (or allow them to drive further on a charge). So why buy? Lease it and give it back when you're done saving money.

Saving money? Yes. You saw the post where I calculated that a Leaf would save my wife $4.66 per day. Most people work 237 days per year so that's over a grand a year in fuel savings ($1,104.42) each and every year. But most people will save even more because they still drive their car on the weekends... more driving the electric car equals more saving versus a gasoline car.

[NickB79]

20. And then you have to figure the cost of maintainance

Oil changes, new filters, any other related expenses that come along with the internal combustion engine.

[txlibdem]

30. Correct. Those costs that you will never have to pay with an all-electric vehicle.

Now the Volt, on the other hand, has both electric AND internal combustion so you'll still have a maintenance schedule for it.

You forgot tuneups. Those are expensive sometimes.

Also reliability-related failures (this is really more a factor in an older vehicle).

[wtmusic]

42. The salesperson tried to sell me a maintenance contract

when I bought my Leaf - it was almost comical.

"You sure you don't want this $1,200 contract? Nissan takes care of all maintenance for blah blah years and blah blah miles..."

"What maintenance would that cover?"

"Um...electric windows, seats, coolant pump, audio, navigation, etc. All electronics, telematics."

"Anything else?"

"We inspect the ball joints every 10,000 miles."

"No thanks."

[Kolesar]

40. I expect that state governments are going to start charging $hundreds/year for tags

...for an electric vehicle since the owners won't be paying any "fuel tax".

[txlibdem]

41. I've heard rumblings of that

But it wouldn't be hundreds of dollars per year. Some states charge more and some charge less but let's go with 18 cents per gallon. If you drive 15,000 miles per year (far higher than the typical driver), had a car that got 20 mpg (15,000 / 20 = 750 gallons per year), you'd pay less than $135 (750 * $0.18).

Since you'll save that $135 in fuel savings alone probably in your first month of driving... meh.

Here are 3 states that are probably going through with that EV tax:

Armed with a report released last week by the Congressional Budget Office, Senate Budget Committee head Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) has raised the possibility of a “vehicle miles traveled” tax. In fact, legislation already is pending in three states — Oregon, Texas and Washington — that would impose some form of VMT tax. So owners of electric cars such as the Nissan Leaf (right) and Chevrolet Volt (below), who now pay no or very little gas tax, would get slammed by a VMT. Same with owners of high-mileage hybrids and low-emission cars powered by natural gas, which is generally not taxed now as a motor fuel.

Read more: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/spending/blog/cars-money/new-tax-would-penalize-electric-cars-for-not-using-gas/2612/#ixzz1bhFUh95A

But, the article goes on: "the knee-jerk reaction against any new tax in today’s politics will probably keep this one from happening in the immediate future."

[sinkingfeeling]

3. Lack of money. I have a 1991 Subaru and a 1999 Saturn. Both get almost 40 mpg on the highways. If

you offer me an electric at around $16K, I'll buy it.

[txlibdem]

17. There's nothing I can do to help you with that! I'm probably more broke a$$ than you...

But thanks for the laugh. My wife's Highlander is fully paid off and she doesn't want to have a car payment till we pay off all of the credit cards. Period.
;-)

[Abin Sur]

4. The Nissan Leaf doesn't have enough range for me.

As per:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_leaf#Range

On the highway with the air conditioner in use it has a range of 70 miles. My commute is 34 miles each way. That would be cutting it a bit close, yes?

What's more, it runs about $30,000 to $35,000 or so, I understand. I just purchased a used Honda Civic hybrid for $11000 and I'm averaging 41 mpg, which gives me a range of about 500 miles. A bit more practical...

[txlibdem]

18. The Leaf has heated / air cooled seats, would that allow you to use less A/C?

If so then you'll get closer to 80 miles on the highway. In town you'll always get close to 100 because of the regenerative braking.

In fact, if you did all your driving in town Nissan says you'll get 104 miles per charge.

[Abin Sur]

23. I like my car to be *cold* on a hot day.

Air conditioning to the max if it's over 75 degrees, which is the case in Colorado for half the year.

In any case, there are plenty of times when I drive over 100 miles in a single day. If a relatively inexpensive electric vehicle had a range of 200 miles or more, I'd start to consider it. It doesn't appear likely that will be the case for some time.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. Well...

I often drive 100-150 miles a day for work and I occasionally make long trips

My mother lives 50 miles away and my doctor is 60 miles away and any major shopping is either 35 or 55 miles away

I have an apartment and park in a lot, so home charging is not a good idea

This is largely flat land around here so hills aren't much of a problem, but it does rain and snow a lot, and it gets dark early in winter-- headlights, wipers, and heater tend to greatly reduce range (notice how many reviews of electrics are from southern California)

I get over 300 miles on a 12 gallon tank of gas, and it takes 5 minutes to refill


Eventually we'll get 10 minute charging stations as common as gas stations, but until then I can't imagine an electric as anything but a second car.

[txlibdem]

34. "I have an apartment and park in a lot, so home charging is not a good idea"

Several apartment complexes here in Dallas/Fort Worth area are putting in chargers for electric cars. You might be surprised if you ask them to put in a Level 2 charger (or a few of them).

http://www.multihousingnews.com/news/multifamily-reit-buys-ev-charging-stations-for-dallas-properties/1004020211.html

http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/03/coulomb-claims-to-install-first-ev-charging-stations-bought-by-apartment-builder.html

[kristopher]

6. People don't buy vehicles based on their average usage.

You don't seem to have the idea of range anxiety down. People don't *usually* buy vehicles based on their average usage, they buy them based on the entire range of needs that the vehicle fulfills. Take the purchase of a $40K diesel pickup for the person that, on average, uses it to commute 2 miles each way to work each day. They shell out the extra money because they tow an R/V or a boat once or twice a year.

Range anxiety is the fear the batteries will be insufficient to meet one's needs; that can include needs are outliers to to the average either routinely or irregularly, real or perceived.

There are different approaches to dealing with it. The Volt hybrid system is one example, a two car family replacing one car with an that they justify EV strictly for short hops is another.

[Abin Sur]

7. Exactly right. While I might only drive 70 miles on some days, between work and errands

it's not uncommon for me to drive 150 to 200 miles in a single day. Electric cars still don't have that kind of range, as far as I know...and even if they did, you can buy an equivalent gasoline-powered car for considerably less.

[txlibdem]

14. You're going to have to wait till 2015 or later to get an electric car with that kind of range

Unless you can afford the Tesla Model S, which comes with an option for 120 miles, 200 or 300 miles range. How much money do you have? ;0

[Abin Sur]

16. I certainly can't afford a Tesla!

While I won't be surprised in the slightest if electric cars eventually become affordable, it'll be longer than 2015 before I buy one. I never buy new cars, they're a terrible investment of one's capital.

[Massacure]

33. If I could recommend your individual post I would

This post is more intelligent and thought out that most of the other things you post. I think it deserves a compliment.

[Arctic Dave]

8. My reason is because they don't have an AWD package yet.

FWD is fine but not good enough.

[txlibdem]

15. Do you live where there is a fair amount of snow?

[Abin Sur]

24. AWD eats up a *lot* of energy. n/t

[Tesha]

32. In an electric car, that's not necessarily true.

There's no need for three differentials and the attendant
energy loses.

Tesha

[txlibdem]

38. How about a car that has 8 wheel all wheel drive?

http://thetechnologyreview.net/eliica-the-eight-wheeled-electric-car.html#axzz1bbRRzERs

Unfortunately, It's only in Japan for now...

[abelenkpe]

9. I drive 21 miles a day round trip

so I'd buy one. But I'm currently in love with my orange prius. You trying to break us up?

[txlibdem]

39. Never. I'm currently seeing another vehicle myself right now...

But as a 2nd car once the Prius is paid off... Something to think about.

[Terry in Austin]

10. "Electric car" -- non starter

"Electric vehicle" -- definitely a go.

It's an important distinction. "Car" means the current car system, and there's not much future left in that particular institution. So just dropping batteries into an otherwise-identical Toyota or Nissan seems almost pointless.

The "car" is a cultural construct: it's a personally-owned, two-ton, mile-a-minute lounge on wheels that can go an unlimited distance with only brief stops in a hugely expensive and pervasive service infrastructure.

The places it takes us are all laid out and built to serve its needs and habits. It is an extravagant creature whose evolution was shaped by a temporary abundance of cheap fossil energy.

All that is going to change, of course, and society will be groping around for a workable transportation system. Smaller scale seems inevitable -- infrastructure and vehicles alike.

The Leaf and its ilk are a step in the right direction, maybe, but IMO something like the http://www.gemcar.com">GEM Car is a lot closer to the mark.

[Abin Sur]

21. A top speed of 25 mph? A range of "up to" 35 miles? No A/C?

It's a golf cart!

I'll stick to my personally-owned, two-ton, mile-a-minute lounge on wheels that can go an unlimited distance with only brief stops, thank you very much!

My probable next vehicle purchase:



Jeep Wrangler Sahara Unlimited. *Drool*

[txlibdem]

26. Funny!

Thanks for the laugh
:rofl: :bounce: :rofl:

[Terry in Austin]

28. Mm hm. Kinda nervous funny. -nt

[txlibdem]

29. Nervous about the 10 or so really cold days Austin gets per year (winter)?

I don't understand why.

[hunter]

35. If I was Emperor of Earth I'd set a maximum speed limit of 35 mph.

Only emergency vehicles, civilian space ships, animals, bicycles, and sailboats would be exempt.

Any motorized vehicle or machine exceeding that speed would be disabled by energy beams from my satellite fortresses. Any military vehicle exceeding that speed would be destroyed.

My motto would be, "Slow Down People, Enjoy the Ride."

[Terry in Austin]

36. Exactly. What the heck is the rush?

Higher speed wastes fuel, higher speed raises the death toll, and whatever small amount of time somebody might save by being in a hurry, they'll probably waste once they get there. Pointless.

Oh yeah -- it really wastes fuel. Did I mention that?

B-)

[wtmusic]

11. Right now they're perfect for two-car families in metro areas.

I understand why others wouldn't buy though. Tech will change that.

[txlibdem]

22. I suppose that's a fair "generalized" statement about America as a whole

But I don't live in a metro area and a Leaf would do just fine for our family. As would a Volt, Mitsubishi i, Ford Focus EV, etc., any of the electric vehicles for sale or about to hit the streets that get over 80 miles per charge.

I, too, understand why others might not want to buy one. This OP was really for them as much as for the "EV Lovers" such as myself.

[XemaSab]

12. To continue what some people are saying upthread

It would be useful for trips to the office and the grocery store, but not useful for trips to Red Bluff or Lassen, much less the Bay Area or the coast.

If the average trip is 8 miles a day, and the car we currently have gets 24 mpg, then $3.80 worth of gas will get me to work and back 3 times, at a cost of $1.26 a day.

Our existing car is paid off, so this $1.26 a day represents our typical transportation costs in a day.

Assuming that our future vehicular needs stay the same, and also assuming that the cost of charging the Leaf is free (which it isn't, but I am too lazy to do the math), then it would take 27,936 commutes before it pays for itself. Of course, that's not the only reason to get a greener car, but considering that a Leaf costs $12,000 more than a Prius, I'd like to see something for that money.

[txlibdem]

37. Today's electric cars have a top speed of 90 mph or 100 mph.

I wouldn't call that a golf cart.

This might help you to understand that today's electric cars are not the golf carts of yesteryear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fmy4tWvr8c - Speed records for the White Zombie Electric Car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGQSQAz9v6c&feature=related - White Zombie vs maserati

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrGnsERK3aE&feature=related - Electric Powered Beetle Dragster - Black Current III