Solar rising with tax credits, lower costs (PV electric heating in Maine)

[jpak]

http://www.pressherald.com/news/solar-rising-with-tax-credits-lower-costs_2011-10-23.html

ARUNDEL - On the lawn behind the Solar Market offices here, 144 solar-electric panels are mounted across a 100-foot-long run of wooden racks. No surprise, really, to see a photovoltaic system outside a company that sells the hardware.

But this set-up is way larger than needed to run lights and appliances. And therein lies the surprise: These solar panels generated enough power last winter to supply nearly 70 percent of the building's warmth -- with electric heat.

The falling price of photovoltaic panels, along with the advent of special heat pumps and super insulation, is creating an opportunity in Maine that energy experts could hardly imagine a few years ago. Now some of the state's leading solar installers, including Solar Market, have begun installing so-called PV panels on homes and businesses to harvest sunshine for baseboard heaters.

The new economics of PV panels also has some companies moving away from promoting solar-thermal collectors designed to heat water, a mainstay of the business in Maine for 30 years.

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:thumbsup:

[Old and In the Way]

1. Promoting decentralized energy solutions delivers energy and economic security.

A labor intensive, non polluting energy grid coupled with infrastructure reinvestment is the way out of our economic downward spiral....I don't see Page upsetting the Republican Big Oil/Big Coal energy agenda, but maybe our next Governor will be progressive enough to run on such a vision. I'm convinced that the first state which fully embraces a renewable energy future will provide the blueprint to move this to a national priority. Maine would be an excellent state to prove this out. I'd offer significant taxbreaks for Maine consumers who buy solar/wind systems manufactured in the state and taxbreaks for companies who will manufacture a significant level of the product content here.

[jwirr]

2. Here in NE MN we have months in the winter that have nothing but

cloudy weather. How does this compare to the climate in Maine. I would love to see our family convert from gas to electric/solar. We have four houses that are in need of this.

[jpak]

3. Does the wind blow in NE MN in the winter?

If it does - problem solved

[FBaggins]

4. Oh come now. Surely you know better than that.

The wind doesn't blow 24/7.

[jpak]

5. In Maine - and the northern tier - winds are strongest during the winter and at night

where ceramic heaters can store heat off-peak electricity as heat for day use.

Also, PV panels produce 6O% of their nameplate capacity on rainy cloudy days - and work everywhere - even in NE MN in the winter.

sorry to inform you

Also, if you read the article, Maine PV systems produce excess electricity in the summer (during the NE summer A/C peak) and those credits are used in the cold dark winter to heat their building...

renewables rule

nucular sucks

yup

[FBaggins]

7. "Sorry to inform you"

but PV panels don't even produce 60% of their nameplate capacity on the sunniest of days.

[jpak]

8. Then I guess you need to be informed about PV nameplate capacity

Their output (nameplate capacity) is ***measured*** under peak sun irrradiance - not in the dark.

sorry to inform you

yup

[FBaggins]

9. ??? You didn't say "while it's raining" (which also would be wrong)

You said on a overcast DAY.

No PV panel puts out 60% of it's rated output over the course of a day... let alone an overcast day.

Heck... how do you explain Germany's solar CF if a PV panel will put out 60% even during a rainy period?

[jpak]

11. You obviously do not understand how they work or are rated

not my problem

*sigh*

[FBaggins]

13. Let's put it this way.

What capacity factor do you expect on that nameplate capacity over the winter months there?

NE MN has some of the worst insolation numbers in the country.

[jpak]

14. First of all, no one buys or installs a PV system based on a bogus "capacity factor"

They buy and install them to produce X-amount of kilowatt hours per day or year.

Perspective owners use local solar irradiance tables to estimate average daily or annual output - and size their systems accordingly.

FYI - daily solar irradiance is a bell-shaped curve - it peaks at local solar noon.

PV panels are designed and marketed to produce a guaranteed output under peak sun conditions for 20-25 years.

This is what is used to size the system.

No bogus "capacity factor" required

sorry again to inform you

yup

[FBaggins]

16. Entirely dodging the question, eh?

Why is that not surprising? (on edit - not because of your character... but because of the weak position you're forced to defend here)

You don't pay for solar panels by how much electricity you actually get in your location.

The simple fact is that in the winter in NE MN, you aren't getting much electricity from even the best solar panels... and wind alone isn't going to fix that problem.

[jpak]

18. No - you fundamentally do not understand PV systems

and yes - you do buy a PV system based on how many kwh they produce per year.

The size of the system is based, in part, on the local winter minimum system output - not some bogus "capacity factor"

Most people understand they do not produce electricity at night.

OK?

[FBaggins]

20. If that IS how people buy them... why don't you and I go into business together?

We'll buy PV panels up north and truck them to CA/NV/AZ and sell them for more than twice the price.

We'll make a fortune!

[jpak]

25. A 300 watt PV panel produces 300 watts at peak sun in MN and CA

sorry to inform you

yup

[FBaggins]

27. And how much peak sun does MN get on an average winter day?

Sorry to ask the inconvenient questions.

[kristopher]

23. He understands; he just likes to hijack positive threads about renewables...

...and turn them into unreadable pissing contests over made up bullshit.

[jpak]

26. yup - but it's nice to play sometimes

:hi:

[diane in sf]

10. PV panels work just fine in the fog belt of San Francisco.

[FBaggins]

12. What is "just fine"?

What percentage of their rated output over a 24 hour period do you expect?

[jpak]

15. You still don't understand - it's kilowatt hours - not bogus capacity factors that are important

duh

[FBaggins]

17. I don't suppose you could hold to one standard at a time?

First you implied that they still produce a certain amount on a rainy day (which would be measured in kwh)... then when you got called on that, you tried to change the measuring stick to just the peak capacity for the sunniest moment of the day... and now you want to dodge away from capacity back to kwh.

Pick either one. A rainy day in NE MN in the winter isn't going to give you enough generation to make a difference. Period.

[jpak]

19. A PV system can be designed to produce the required amout of electricty for a home or business

on the rainiest cloudiest shortest winter day of the year in NE MN

this you do not understand

yup

[FBaggins]

22. Lol... By putting in 10-20 times as much?

Plus batteries of course.

[jpak]

24. Made-up numbers and grid-tied systems do not need batteries - again a fundamental misunderstanding

of PV systems

yup

[CJvR]

31. Uh...

...you are going to need batteries somewhere unless there are classic power stations around to take up the slack. You might have heard of these things called "night" and "winter", they are quite common - particulary up north.

[kristopher]

32. A renewable grid is only expected to need about 5% of capacity as storage.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=313097&mesg_id=313097

[reggie the dog]

6. they are talking about baseboard heaters

this would reduce other costs of heating your house so 24 7 or not you would be getting a certain percentage of your heating from wind or sun

[FBaggins]

28. A "certain percentage" to be sure. The question is how big a percentage.

My disagreement here isn't with the heating idea outlined in the other thread. I think it's genius. It's effectively "storage" for intermittent power generation. With a grid that's "smart" enough to charge homeowners less when there's excess generation, this make a great idea.

My concern is with the nonsense arguments that attempt to make solar PV seem as logical here as in AZ/NV/etc. The same PV panel will produce much more electricity in those warmer climates and its peak generation will line up very closely with the peaking energy demands of the area (air conditioning in the afternoon). In contrast, that PV panel will produce nothing in the peak energy need hours (electric heating during a cold night) and next to nothing at the next highest demand point (day after day of cold overcast weather after several inches of snow). A few hours of storage in bricks isn't going to get the job done.

[kristopher]

21. Minnesota's wind resource could easily power the state 25X over; then you have...

Solar, biomass, hydro (small scale especially in the river basins) and geothermal.

Minnesota lacks only the will.

[FBaggins]

29. More nonsense.

Why talk about "resources"?

There's enough sunlight hitting the US to power the entire country many times over. There's enough energy in waves along the coast to do so as well. There's enough uranium in the ground to keep the ligts on for centuries. There's enough coal to last for at least a couple. It's beginning to look like gas (and potentially oil) "resources" are stunningly high.

You can go on and on. The "resources" exist. It isn't just "will" that keeps it from happening. There's a cost to be paid as well (financial/environmental/etc).

[kristopher]

30. Poor Baggins, nuclear sucks and renewables work.

Your cries of despair must keep your entire neighborhood awake at night.