Jump-Starting the Hydrogen Economy: AFC Energy Takes a Back to Basics, Commercial Approach

[OKIsItJustMe]

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/11/10/jump-starting-the-hydrogen-economy-afc-energy-takes-a-back-to-basics-commercial-approach/

Jump-Starting the Hydrogen Economy: AFC Energy Takes a Back to Basics, Commercial Approach

November 10, 2011 By Andrew Burger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbk_FEVfWhg

…

In most cases, longstanding challenges to wide-scale commercialization remain, however, due to one simple fact: production costs remain all too high, putting large-scale commercialization off in the distant future.

The UK’s http://www.afcenergy.com/">AFC Energy is intent on changing that, and as quickly as possible. On the verge of announcing its first commercial-scale installations with an industrial partner, AFC founder Howard White talked with Clean Technica about the company’s laser-like focus on taking the basic, time-tested and proven alkaline fuel cell technology invented in the 19th century and updating it through the use of modern materials and manufacturing processes.

The result is a modular, low cost-high-performance alkaline fuel cell system that if not commercially viable today soon will be, certainly in specific industrial sectors, according to White.

If AFC succeeds, White sees its success as opening up a global market for hydrogen that in large part is viewed and treated as a waste by-product in industry.

…

[drm604]

1. How are they producing the hydrogen?

That's the all important question when you're talking about fuel cells. The specific fuel cell technology is really secondary to that.

Hydrogen is not a source of energy. It's a way of storing energy.

[OKIsItJustMe]

3. “Hydrogen is not a source of energy. It's a way of storing energy.”

Yes, yes… (Just like any other renewable fuel you would care to mention.) :eyes:

There are many ways to produce hydrogen, however, as the article points out, currently hydrogen which is produced as an industrial by-product is simply being treated as waste. (Why not recover it, and use it in a fuel cell?)

[drm604]

17. Sunlight and wind are renewable and are sources of energy.

Hydrogen is only renewable if the energy you use to obtain it is itself renewable, and if it's source is renewable. So it is important how that hydrogen is obtained.

Currently the most common method for obtaining hydrogen is to remove it from hydrocarbons. These are not renewable, and the process releases carbon.

And the roll eyes are not necessary. We're having a conversation here.

[OKIsItJustMe]

19. I apologize. I just get tired of the "Hydrogen is an energy carrier” meme.

It seems like whenever there’s a discussion involving hydrogen, someone will weigh in with, “hydrogen is an energy storage medium,” as if it’s some sort of crushing new revelation.

Every fuel is a form of energy storage.

In the case of fossil fuels, they store solar energy from eons ago. In the case of hydrogen, it may store solar energy from 5 minutes ago.

Heck, even uranium stores the energy from some ancient supernova.


Take the electricity from a wind turbine or a solar panel, or any other renewable source of electricity and you can produce hydrogen. Or, you can take “biomass,” and use it to produce hydrogen.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/production/biomass_gasification.html


Today, hydrogen is typically made from natural gas (and, therefore, not renewable.) By the same token, today’s electric cars run on electricity primarily generated by burning coal.

[kristopher]

2. A "hydrogen economy" isn't going to happen

the future is an "electric economy". Hydrogen has a small but important role to play but we are not going from a "fossil fuel economy " or even a "petroleum economy" to a "hydrogen economy".

[OKIsItJustMe]

4. Now who’s playing with words?

The phrase “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy">Hydrogen Economy” has been in use for 40+ years now.

[kristopher]

5. Apparently you are (at least you're trying to)

A hydrogen economy has a very specific meaning; from your link:
"In the current hydrocarbon economy, transportation is fueled primarily by petroleum. Burning of hydrocarbon fuels emits carbon dioxide and other pollutants. The supply of economically usable hydrocarbon resources in the world is limited, and the demand for hydrocarbon fuels is increasing, particularly in China, India and other developing countries.

Proponents of a world-scale hydrogen economy argue that hydrogen can be an environmentally cleaner source of energy to end-users, particularly in transportation applications, without release of pollutants (such as particulate matter) or carbon dioxide at the point of end use. A 2004 analysis asserted that "most of the hydrogen supply chain pathways would release significantly less carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than would gasoline used in hybrid electric vehicles" and that significant reductions in carbon dioxide emissions would be possible if carbon capture or carbon sequestration methods were utilized at the site of energy or hydrogen production.<3>"

[OKIsItJustMe]

6. A bit disingenuous (if you ask me)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy#Perspective:_current_hydrogen_market_.28current_hydrogen_economy.29

Hydrogen economy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The hydrogen economy is a proposed system of delivering energy using hydrogen. The term hydrogen economy was coined by John Bockris during a talk he gave in 1970 at General Motors (GM) Technical Center.

Hydrogen advocates promote hydrogen as potential fuel for motive power (including cars and boats), the energy needs of buildings and portable electronics. Free hydrogen does not occur naturally in quantity, and thus it must be generated from some other energy source by steam reformation of natural gas or another method. Hydrogen is therefore an energy carrier (like electricity), not a primary energy source (like coal). The utility of a hydrogen economy depends on issues of energy sourcing, including fossil fuel use, climate change, and sustainable energy generation.

Rationale

A hydrogen economy is proposed to solve some of the negative effects of using hydrocarbon fuels where the carbon is released to the atmosphere. Modern interest in the hydrogen economy can generally be traced to a 1970 technical report by Lawrence W. Jones of the University of Michigan.

…

Proponents of a world-scale hydrogen economy argue that hydrogen can be an environmentally cleaner source of energy to end-users, particularly in transportation applications, without release of pollutants (such as particulate matter) or carbon dioxide at the point of end use. A 2004 analysis asserted that "most of the hydrogen supply chain pathways would release significantly less carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than would gasoline used in hybrid electric vehicles" and that significant reductions in carbon dioxide emissions would be possible if carbon capture or carbon sequestration methods were utilized at the site of energy or hydrogen production.

…

[IADEMO2004]

7. Harry Braun disagrees

http://iowacaucus.com/2011/07/27/obama-challenger-pushes-for-democracy-hydrogen-economy/

Cut:

The short version electricity of Braun’s solar hydrogen economy is using electricity generated by wind and other solar technologies to extract hydrogen from water, which then can be stored as a universal fuel to power any existing engine or power plant.

Braun is quick to point out that a car with a hydrogen-powered internal combustion engine was first introduced in 1807.

He advocates shifting to the hydrogen economy “at wartime speed” in the same way as American industry shifted direction when the U.S. entered World War II.

The transition would create millions of jobs in wind turbine construction, wind farm development and modernization of the electric grid, Braun said.

end cut:

He has been in iowa for months. He has no delusions about winning but is serious about hydrogen.
http://www.braun2012.us/

[kristopher]

8. He is wrong.

Hydrogen is an inefficient energy carrier that only justifies the increased energy required for its use in very limited, specific applications.

[OKIsItJustMe]

9. (In Kristopher’s opinion at least)

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/fuels/hydrogen.html

Hydrogen

Hydrogen has the potential to revolutionize transportation and, possibly, our entire energy system. The simplest and most abundant element in the universe, hydrogen can be http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/fuels/hydrogen_production.html">produced from fossil fuels and biomass and even by electrolyzing water. Producing hydrogen with renewable energy and using it in http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/vehicles/fuel_cell.html">fuel cell vehicles holds the promise of virtually pollution-free transportation and independence from imported petroleum.

…

[kristopher]

10. There is a reason hydrogen is on the back burner.

It is an inefficient energy carrier. It makes a great PR vision where you just move from petroleum to hydrogen and life is better than ever, but the economics, the competing technologies and the nature of a distributed *grid* make that vision a wasteful exercise in simplistic daydreaming for the less-than-well-informed.

[OKIsItJustMe]

11. That is not the stated reason for Chu’s opposition to FCEV research funding

His primary reason is immediacy. BEV’s are available today, FCEVs are years off. So, where should he put his limited R&D budget? It’s not an unreasonable stance, although it’s not one I agree with.

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1392&doc_id=210168

Engineering Materials

Hydrogen Cars Get Thumbs Down From Steven Chu

Doug Smock
5/22/2009

In his 2003 State of the Union address, President George W. Bush, requested $1.2 billion in spending on hydrogen-powered cars. This month, the Obama administration announced that U.S. Energy Department funding for hydrogen-related projects would be cut by 60 percent to $68.2 million next fiscal year. That concurs with what I felt was the overall consensus at a seminar on hydrogen power at last fall’s Society of Manufacturing Engineer’s annual conference. The remaining federal funding will focus on hydrogen power for buildings. ”We’re going to be moving away from hydrogen-fuel cells for vehicles,” Energy Secretary Steven Chu said. “We asked ourselves, is it likely in the next 10 or 15, or even 20 years that we will convert to a hydrogen car economy? The answer, we felt, was no.”

…

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-14/obama-hydrogen-fuel-failure-conceded-by-chu-paring-budget-cars.html

Obama Hydrogen Fuel Failure Conceded by Chu Paring Budget: Cars

By Alan Ohnsman and Brian Wingfield - Tue Jun 14 04:00:02 GMT 2011

Energy Secretary Steven Chu, whose mandate includes getting more fuel-efficient cars on U.S. roads, is disregarding advisers in his own department and seeking to cut almost half the federal funding for hydrogen-powered autos.

…

“Secretary Chu has firmly set his mind against hydrogen as a passenger-car fuel,” Mary Nichols, chairwoman of California’s Air Resources Board, said in an interview with Bloomberg Government. Her agency’s regulations affect more drivers than any other state’s. “Frankly, his explanations don’t make sense to me. They are not based on the facts as we know them.”

…

Chu is “hostile to hydrogen,” Robert Walker, a former member of the Energy Department’s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technical Advisory Committee, said in an interview. Walker, executive chairman of Wexler & Walker Public Policy Associates, a Washington lobbying firm, and a former Republican House member from Pennsylvania, resigned from the panel in April over the budget proposal.

‘More Likely’ Options

Chu, 63, has advocated battery cars and biofuels as options more likely to meet U.S. energy and environmental goals in the near term. Discounting hydrogen means the U.S. risks falling behind Japan, Germany and South Korea in the technology because those nations are moving ahead with plans for extensive fuel- station networks to serve buyers of the cars.

…

[kristopher]

12. Look, I've spent years studying the energy system at the nuts and bolts level.

Chu is "hostile to hydrogen" for good reason; it is largely a dead end for the uses it is being hyped to accomplish and its pursuit distracts attention and wastes resources.

If you want to keep believing that hydrogen is something that it isn't go right ahead. But when you start posting hyperbole about a "hydrogen economy" or "Bloom Box" miracles I'm probably going to be there to rain on the parade. You'll note that when the applications are actually justified, like the other thread today, you read very positive feedback from me.

[OKIsItJustMe]

13. Perhaps your opinions were formed using old data?

http://newscenter.lbl.gov/news-releases/2010/04/30/inexpensive-catalyst-for-generating-hydrogen-from-water/

Berkeley Scientists Discover Inexpensive Metal Catalyst for Generating Hydrogen from Water

April 30, 2010
Lynn Yarris [phone] [e-mail]

Hydrogen would command a key role in future renewable energy technologies, experts agree, if a relatively cheap, efficient and carbon-neutral means of producing it can be developed. An important step towards this elusive goal has been taken by a team of researchers with the U.S. Department of Energy’s (DOE) Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) and the University of California, Berkeley. The team has discovered an inexpensive metal catalyst that can effectively generate hydrogen gas from water.

“Our new proton reduction catalyst is based on a molybdenum-oxo metal complex that is about 70 times cheaper than platinum, today’s most widely used metal catalyst for splitting the water molecule,” said Hemamala Karunadasa, one of the co-discoverers of this complex. “In addition, our catalyst does not require organic additives, and can operate in neutral water, even if it is dirty, and can operate in sea water, the most abundant source of hydrogen on earth and a natural electrolyte. These qualities make our catalyst ideal for renewable energy and sustainable chemistry.”

…

“The basic scientific challenge has been to create earth-abundant molecular systems that produce hydrogen from water with high catalytic activity and stability,” Chang says. “We believe our discovery of a molecular molybdenum-oxo catalyst for generating hydrogen from water without the use of additional acids or organic co-solvents establishes a new chemical paradigm for creating reduction catalysts that are highly active and robust in aqueous media.”

…

Long says, “This metal-oxo complex represents a distinct molecular motif for reduction catalysis that has high activity and stability in water. We are now focused on modifying the PY5Me ligand portion of the complex and investigating other metal complexes based on similar ligand platforms to further facilitate electrical charge-driven as well as light-driven catalytic processes. Our particular emphasis is on chemistry relevant to sustainable energy cycles.”

…

[kristopher]

14. Perhaps you are just trolling to kick this garbage.

[OKIsItJustMe]

15. And there we have it!

If you cannot make a point, use ad hominem.

[kristopher]

16. You haven't made the case, OK. There are no developments that ...

...have increased system efficiency by anywhere near the amount needed to make H competitive in personal transport. The same lack of progress applies for any sort of widescale use for mass storage when it is looked at in light of the alternatives I mentioned above. Your method of argumentation is too nebulous and imprecise to be much more than being contrary for the sake of being contrary.
The proof is in the eating of the pudding, however, and the world is moving with alacrity towards a system where te primary energy carrier is electricity. And as your own posts show, H is a rather small niche technology.

[OKIsItJustMe]

18. OK, let’s get this straight

You agree that hydrogen fuel cells make sense for moving (big) things like trains, buses, tractors, tractor-trailers, etc.

On the other hand, you feel that battery electric vehicles make more sense for personal transport (presumably short-haul, light-weight.)

It’s a matter of balancing advantages and disadvantages. Right?

At some point, on the continuum between run-about and heavy-hauler, the balance tips, and you accept that FCEV’s become preferable to BEV’s. (Right?)



OK, maybe I agree with you when it comes to a small “town car.” A battery-electric vehicle is appealing for my daily commute, except… I don’t know about where you live, but around here, it’s starting to get cold out, and that reminds me that Lithium-Ion batteries still don’t like http://www.thecarelectric.com/content/electric-cars-in-cold-climates.php">cold weather… On the other hand, http://www.nrel.gov/news/features/feature_detail.cfm/feature_id=1497">batteries are clearly improving…

At the same time, fuel cells are still too expensive, but costs are improving.


And, then, there’s the pesky matter of my neighborhood hydrogen station… I don’t have one (yet.)


Generally, I think we’re in agreement on principle. Batteries clearly don’t work in heavy, long-haul vehicles. Batteries work best in short-haul, light vehicles.

Where we disagree is where the transition takes place.


However, as food for thought, how about a forklift as an example of a small vehicle?
http://www.iuvmag.com/eNewsletters/2010_10.html#1

Fuel Cell Forklift Fleets – Catching on in a Big Way

By Sandra Curtin, Research Director, Fuel Cells 2000

Coca-Cola, Walmart, Whole Foods, and other nationally recognizable companies have discovered the substantial benefits provided by deploying fuel cell power in their materials handling fleets. These firms report saving tens of thousands of dollars in labor costs and hundreds of thousands in electricity costs annually, while also reducing carbon emissions by hundreds of metric tons each year. Sixteen of these companies, including seven in the Fortune 500, are profiled in Fuel Cell 2000’s new report, “The Business Case for Fuel Cells: Why Top Companies Are Purchasing Fuel Cells Today.”

Why fuel cells?

“The cost and productivity savings that we have gained have been so significant that we have already converted a large number of our material handling vehicles, even in this economy. As OorjaPac takes less than one minute to refuel and supplies enough power for an entire shift, this greatly impacts our 24/7, 365-day operation.” Tom Hughes, Warehouse Manager, Super Store Industries

“With these fuel cell materials handling units, we will be able to maintain productivity, decrease operating costs and lower greenhouse gas emissions by 30%. We assessed many different technologies for our materials handling fleet and believe the Plug Power fuel cell units give us the best overall solution.” Lauren C. Steele, Spokesman, Coca-Cola Consolidated

…

Several studies support these findings. Argonne National Laboratory estimates that fuel cell lift trucks produce 63 percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions than battery-powered systems, while Battelle indicates that fuel cell forklifts on a lifecycle cost basis require approximately 48 to 50 percent less investment than battery-powered competitors in high-throughput applications. Batelle also found that while fuel cell-powered forklifts require a greater initial investment they provide significant savings in operation and maintenance.

…

[wtmusic]

20. Looks like you copied that graphic and added your own text.

This one - that you saved to your account at Photobucket:



bears a remarkable resemblance to this one, from a group which gets half of its funding from hydrogen and fuel cell industry groups:



www.fch-ju.eu/sites/default/files/documents/.../martin_linder.pdf

Except, of course, you've filled in the boxes with your own colorful propaganda (if your fuel cell claims are representative, 1 in 10 has a basis in fact).

Busted. :blush:

[OKIsItJustMe]

21. Ah… No… Hey! But thanks for the ad hominem!

I copied that graphic from this PDF.
http://www.zeroemissionvehicles.eu/uploads/Power_trains_for_Europe.pdf

I used it here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=316467&mesg_id=316781


If you’ve got a better way to post a graphic from a PDF, I’m all uh… eyes.

[wtmusic]

22. Oportet linguam intellegere antequam utatur. But I digress.

My question is: why are you posting fuel-cell industry hype as if it were fact? You seem to have much more confidence in it than even the sponsors:

"None of the companies and organisations listed above guarantee the adequacy, accuracy, timeliness or completeness of the document’s contents. Said companies and organisations therefore disclaim any and all warranties and representations as to said contents, express or implied, including any warranties of fitness for a particular purpose or use."

[OKIsItJustMe]

23. It’s not industry hype

It’s a perfectly rational analysis. You simply don’t like the results of the analysis.

So, you attack the source, rather than the substance.

http://www.europeanclimate.org/index.php/news/35-a-portfolio-of-power-trains-for-europe-a-fact-based-analysis-launched-today-

'A portfolio of power-trains for Europe: A fact-based analysis' launched today

The study 'A portfolio of power-trains for Europe: A fact-based analysis' was launched today in Brussels by a consortium of around thirty organisations including global companies across the passenger car value chain, an NGO and Government Organisations. The analysis compares the economics, sustainability and performance of four different types of vehicles in helping achieve the overall 80% decarbonisation goal by 2050 set by the European Union.
http://www.europeanclimate.org/documents/Power_trains_for_Europe.pdf">The document can be downloaded here.