EV Drivers Adopt Solar Chargers to Wean Themselves Off the Grid

[jpak]

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/11/evs-go-off-grid/

Many Mini drivers accessorize their cars with things like checkered-flag decals on the mirrors or the Union Jack on the roof. Colby Trudeau chose something a little more radical.

When Trudeau’s family took delivery of an electric Mini E two years ago, they gave the little EV a big upgrade: a 4.4 kilowatt solar-power system on the roof of their San Diego home. Going solar offset the Mini’s operating costs and covered most of the household energy costs, dropping the family’s monthly electric bill to around $25. When the Mini went back to BMW after its lease expired earlier this year, a Chevrolet Volt took its spot in the garage.

The Trudeaus are early adopters among early adopters, one of a small but growing number of people who are buying electric vehicles and embracing the idea of true zero-emissions driving.

“Once we had the electric car, going solar made even more sense,” said Trudeau, who grew so evangelical about cars with cords that he started volunteering at the advocacy group Plug In America. “Instead of sending our money overseas to power a polluting vehicle, we are now powering our car on cheap, clean, domestic electricity from the sun.”

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[msongs]

1. "...cheap.." Wonder how much his "cheap" 4.4 kw rooftop system cost him nt

[jpak]

2. With California incentives and Federal (Dem) solar tax credits - not much

yup

[PamW]

8. I recently priced a system....

I recently priced a 4 kW system from Solar Universe. After federal tax credits and a rebate from PG&E, the 4 kW system would require an outlay of about $27,000 net.

So the family with the solar powered car pays as much for the solar arrays for the "free" power as they do for the car.

PamW

[jpak]

9. WRONG PPam - PV systems are now ~$7000 per kW before ANY incentive or tax credits

Try again

:rofl:

[PamW]

12. Put up or shut up

Jpak,

Kindly provide me with your email address and I will send you a copy of
the quote that I got from our local solar power distributor.

It's about $7000 / kw AFTER the PG&E and federal rebates.

PamW

[TheWraith]

13. You'll be hearing crickets for a long, long time.

jpak has the strangest obsession with solar power, even though it's the worst form of renewable energy.

[kristopher]

14. No wonder you two love nuclear, you can't do basic arithmetic

Assumptions:
Stable gasoline price of $4/gal
22 MPG
Miles/year 15,000

15000/22= 682 Gal/yr
682 X $4 =$2728

National Renewable Energy Labs uses 30 year lifespan for solar panels, but they stipulate that 40+ is more likely

Not counting the certain increase in the price of gasoline above $4, in
ten years you've avoided 27,280
twenty years $54,560
thirty years $81,840
forty years $110,120

And even though you make it clear that CO2 isn't a primary concern for you, others might be interested in the 13,000 lbs of avoided CO2 emissions per year.

ten years you've avoided 130,000 lbs of CO2
twenty years 260,000 lbs of CO2
thirty years 390,000 lbs of CO2
forty years 520,000 lbs of CO2


I'm sure that has a monetary value also, but since it hasn't been established with any degree of certainly I'd put the range of value for the CO2 at between $30 to $180 per ton. Meaning an additional $7,800 - $46,800 in added value for the panels.

And the peace of mind that comes with knowing you are not killing the planet?
Priceless.

[TheWraith]

15. Completely avoiding what you were actually asked, as usual.

And attempting to provide ridiculously unbalanced math to "prove" you're right.

Try again to cite solar panels at the price you claimed.

[kristopher]

16. You wrote:

"Completely avoiding what you were actually asked, as usual. And attempting to provide ridiculously unbalanced math to "prove" you're right.
Try again to cite solar panels at the price you claimed.
Posted by TheWraith

I didn't make a post about the cost of solar panels. I only explained a portion of their value.

[NickB79]

23. While your math is correct, I've noticed most people don't mentally operate like that

I've been pricing solar and wind for my home, and while I'm only looking at a 2 kW system, I still can't afford it despite rebates. $15,000+ is a lot of money for most Americans to lay out, even if they can get a low-interest loan, when so many of us are stretched thin already due to the crappy economy. I'm also fighting my own wife, because when I tell her it will pay for itself in 15 years, she looks at me like I'm crazy spending so much money on something that will take so long to pay for itself. The sad thing is, most of my friends say the same thing. I've even done what you just did, breaking it down on paper, and they still don't seem to get it.

It's the same reason so many people will go to Walmart and buy a $2 hammer that they know will break in a year and need to be replaced when there's a $20 hammer right next to it that will last a lifetime. The ability to do truly long-term thinking like that seems to be a dying art for many, unfortunately.

[kristopher]

24. There is a time and place where it is effective, I believe.

A purchase of that magnitude is rare - homes and autos are it for most people. So it isn't surprising me that it would meet a great deal of resistance unless there is a pressing need to consider making the purchase. If, on the other hand, it is combined with one or both of the other big ticket purchases, I suspect people would be a lot more receptive to the long term savings involved. Next time you buy a house or car, consider discussing it as an integrated idea.

[jpak]

18. OK PPam - current US PV module prices are $2.49 per watt - for a 4 kW systems that's $9960

a top 'o the line Sunny Boy 4000 watt grid tied inverter is $2900

we're up to $12,860 for the biggest two items in a grid tied system....

throw in $500 bucks for a meter and we're up to $13,360

even if it took a 5 person crew 5 8-hour days @ $50 dollars an hour each to install (which it doesn't) - that would add $10,000 to the cost of the system (which is way too high).

now we're up to $23,000 and change - before the federal 30% tax credit - and before any CA incentives

care to reconsider your stupid argument?

didn't think so

:rofl:

[PamW]

19. More to it...

PV systems are now ~$7000 per kW before ANY incentive or tax credits
==============================

The above might cover the solar panels themselves.

However, I realize that with your lack of technical acumen, that you
probably don't realize that there is more to a system for powering a
car than just the solar panels.

We want to be able to use the car during the day, and not have the
car be a "garage queen" during the day while it is soaking up the
solar energy all day long.

No - the car won't be home necessarily when the sun is out and the
solar panels are able to do their job. Therefore, part of the system
has to be a way to store the power until evening when the car will
be in the garage for an extended time.

You probably didn't think about that, which is why your estimate
of the needed costs is such a ridiculous low-ball. Or it may
be that you are just thinking with your prejudices...

PamW

[kristopher]

20. You don't anyone to believe that is the system you claim to have gotten a quote on, do you?

Talk about tone deaf...

[jpak]

21. "The above might cover the solar panels themselves." WRONG WRONG WRONG

US PV module prices are currently $2.49 a watt... a 4000 watt system would cost $9960 at that price.

Some thin film modules can be had for $1.25 a watt - or $5000 for a 4 kW system...

http://www.solarbuzz.com/facts-and-figures/retail-price-environment/module-prices

you are WRONG WRONG WRONG Pam

yup

:rofl:

[jpak]

22. Your lack of technical acumen includes pathetic ignorance of the *reality* called "net metering"

where domestic solar systems SELL their electricity by day and BUY IT BACK at night to charge an EV.

again

WRONG WRONG WRONG PPam

yup

:rofl:

[txlibdem]

26. That's not always the case -- much to my chagrin

Here in Texas the "net metering" rules are very different than in California.

My electric company only gives you the "avoided transmission costs" and never pay full price for the electricity sent back to the grid. I've heard that other companies will give you less than that and only a couple give you 100% credit (aka full price) for excess kilowatt hours sent back to the grid. Most have no net metering at all. One gives you 100% up to the first 500 kWh over your "usual" electricity usage (I guess that means pre-solar), then 50% for each kWh after that. It's an idiotic system here that lets the electric utility company decide on its own.

There should be a national standard that requires companies to pay full retail price at the time each kilowatt hour gets fed back into the grid, whatever the cost to you would normally be at that time had you used a kilowatt hour.

[Kolesar]

10. Show your work...eom

[diane in sf]

25. Your pants are aflame.

[kestrel91316]

3. I wonder how many human lives our oil dependency has cost ALL of us.

Care to put a dollar value on that??

[haikugal]

4. Bingo...there's more to the cost than just what comes out of our pocket.

[txlibdem]

27. I've heard of increased health issues if you live within 1/4th or 1/2 mile of a freeway

...or major highway. I'll try to find the source but if anyone has it handy please feel free to chime in.

[Tesha]

5. Make sure you amortize over the at-least-twenty-five-year life of the system.

And it may last a good deal longer.

Tesha

[Nihil]

6. He lives in the right place to do it ...

... not only because of the subsidies available (lucky!) but because of
the sunlight situation - just made for using PV!

> “Once we had the electric car, going solar made even more sense,” said Trudeau,
> who grew so evangelical about cars with cords that he started volunteering at
> the advocacy group Plug In America. “Instead of sending our money overseas to
> power a polluting vehicle, we are now powering our car on cheap, clean, domestic
> electricity from the sun.”

I applaud people who put their money where their mouth is!

:applause:

[diane in sf]

11. You can even get a decent amount of solar in the fog belt in San Francisco.

[madokie]

7. And that is a perfect example of how we get our asses off the oil tit

Rec.

[txlibdem]

17. In 2012, how many electric vehicles can you choose from?

In no particular order and in USA...

Chevy Volt - I include this Series Hybrid only because most people do not drive over 40 miles per day
Nissan Leaf
Mitsubishi i
Ford Focus EV
Ford Transit Connect EV
Toyota RAV4-EV - the second generation of this beloved EV, available in California first
Smart ED - available for lease only

**some info gathered from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_production_battery_electric_vehicles

PS, I recommend leasing this first generation of electric vehicles if you are worried about battery life or if the "EV lifestyle" is really for you.

If you are fortunate enough to live in one of the areas where EV chargers are being setup in large numbers (such as all along the I-5 corridor from CA to Canada) then you will likely have no worries about range. Others, do the math and have realistic expectations.