Just Drove a Hydrogen Car

[dcfirefighter]

A gen 3 fuel-cell powered electrically driven Opel Zafira. Nice fit & finish, drove much like an electric golf cart. According to the engineers with it, it currently has a range of ~100 miles on a few kgs of H2, though there is nothing other than developmental prudence keeping them from fitting a larger tank. The actual fuel cell was a stack of 200 cells, each at about 1V, outputting up to 98kW. The motive motor was limited to around 65kW. The technology involved a plastic membrane and rare metals including platinum. The membrane is permeable to protons, but not H2, and was described as heavy duty saran wrap.

Currently, the car uses industrial hydrogen, as demand & use isn't great enough to develop it's own pipeline. Specifically, the Hydrogen comes from Canada, from natural gas via steam reformation.

At least one of the engineers was hopeful that solar power would one day provide the primary energy source, though was receptive to my (ahem, at least relative to that conversation) suggestion that nuclear power could be used.

The car was nice, on the other hand, the filling station was, IMO the weak link in the 'hydrogen economy' system. The car could be produced today, and certainly could be affordable within a few years. OTOH, the network of filling stations couldn't and definitely won't. I'm not sure of the social feasibility of harry-homeowner electric hydrogen producers.

[wakeme2008]

1. Things like top speed would be nice.

:)

While not an engineer, hydrogen can be created from water with electricity. I could see a solar panel at an owner's home using the electricity from the panel to create hydrogen. This could be stored and transfered to the car at night.

While I do not see this type car being a long trip car, it would do well for most ppls daily drive to work.

[dcfirefighter]

4. Street Legal

I didn't take it on the highway, but it had the equivalent of a 140 hp motor, so it would certainly go 75 mph or better.

[ToolTex]

2. A danger with hydrogen is that it must be carried in high pressure

tanks which can explode rather violently in collisions. There are other difficult problems with compressing, distributing, and storing high pressure hydrogen. Of course, there are difficult problems with gasoline, also.

[dcfirefighter]

5. or Low Temperature

The biggest hazard regarding them is the high voltage cables. The hydrogen and it's storage is pretty innoccuous. Certainly no worse than gasoline or it's vapor. The version we saw had a 5000 psi tank, apparently .45 ACP proof. The tank was in the center of the car, if the collision damaged the tanks, the occupants would have certainly been killed.

[One_Life_To_Give]

3. More power than a 38 Maxim

And running a fire pump off of an electric motor would have some advantages. In addition to having the refilling station become a municipal item. If the fuel cells can be parralleled it shouldn't be too much of a technical problem. 200KW should be more than enough to move the truck/power the firepump.

[dcfirefighter]

9. environmental efficiency of fire trucks

Because I am a geek on many levels, I've often thought that firetrucks should be diesel-electric a la locomotives, preferably with some sort of storage battery:

1) they typically are started and then run at 100% capacity for the response: A diesel-electric with battery could at least give the diesel motor a chance to warm up and lubricate itself prior to being run at capacity.

2) more times than not, the emergency they respond to does not require the use of the fire pump, but rather the use of halogen lighting, and emergency (red flashing) lights to alert traffic. IOW, a relatively large electric draw, very little mechanical draw.

3) the diesel engine could be located anywhere on the vehicle, rather than in the cab as is usual. (there are mechanical designs that put the engine amidship or at the rear, but they're uncommon). Less heat and more space in the cab.

4) A diesel engine could be run on biodiesel, meaning (near) carbon neutrality

5) A diesel-electric w/batt could be run on battery power while in quarters, eliminating the need for exhaust removal systems.

6) it's not uncommon for specialized fire trucks to have several combinations of PTO, diesel, and hydraulic generators with more than 50 kW of generating power

7) The number of engine-driven accessories is large as well: power steering, large (200CFM - 50 hp) air compressors, (2000 gpm - 175 hp) fire pumps, hydraulic rescue pumps, hydraulic ladders & cranes, winches, generators, etc.

8) fire trucks operate in stop & go driving rather than on the highway - perfect for battery demand smoothing & regenerative braking.

[rfkrfk]

6. platinum is the problem

peak platinum was a long time ago

is the output of the fuel cells,
really 98 kw?

the reason I ask, is that the Honda FX {or whatever it is}
fuel cell car used supercapacitors for acceleration power,
the fuel cells were only a fraction of the claimed power.

[jpak]

7. Not so according to the platinum producers...

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/03-03-2003/0001900950&EDATE=

Platinum is the Only Viable Catalyst for Proton Exchange Membrane (PEM)
Fuel Cells; World Reserves are More Than Adequate for Expected Uses

FRANKFURT, Germany, March 3 /PRNewswire/ -- The belief that clean
efficient fuel cell technology has the potential to replace the internal
combustion engine in the future is becoming more widely held. The Proton
Exchange Membrane (PEM) fuel cell is the technology which is being considered
for this purpose. It uses platinum as the electrocatalyst. The significance of
this fact raises the issue of the availability of platinum.

On the eve of the National Hydrogen Association's 14th Annual U.S.
Hydrogen Conference in Washington, D.C. this week, the International Platinum
Association (IPA), which comprises the world's leading platinum group metals,
producers and fabricators, confirms that enough platinum resource is available
worldwide to meet any foreseeable future demand spurred by the
commercialization of fuel cells.

"The platinum resource industry wants to set the record straight: there is
more than enough platinum to satisfy the widespread introduction of fuel
cells, for automotive propulsion, stationary power generation or other uses,"
said Marcus Nurdin, Managing Director of the International Platinum
Association. Several erroneous media reports have recently suggested
otherwise, potentially causing needless uncertainty among legislators,
regulators, and the general public. "Not only are the platinum miners,
producers and fabricators convinced that enough platinum resource is available
to meet all foreseeable demand, but increasingly, industry-leading automobile
and fuel cell manufacturers agree that platinum availability is not a cause
for concern."

<more>

Pt in auto catalytic converters is efficiently recycled too...

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KWH/is_6_42/ai_n6094733

<snip>

Ashok Kumar, director of A-1 Specialized Services & Supplies Inc., the Pennsylvania-based multi-national recycler that specializes in lot consolidation and dry processing of salvage converters, says 2004 will end with global recycled production of platinum at 730,000 ounces, palladium at 450,000 ounces and rhodium at 120,000 ounces.

By year 2010, Kumar predicts these numbers will more than double, largely because of the sharply increased retirement of converter equipped cars in Western European countries.

<snip>

730,000 ounces is enough for > 2 million 50 kW fuel cells (at 9 grams per fuel cell)...

[dcfirefighter]

8. platinum isn't consumed, though

98 kW is 131 hp, which is the output from the stack of cells - the motor itself was only in the 60's. The next generation will include a small high voltage battery, so that the cell can be stopped at lights, etc.

I am not hopeful that any reliance on cars, regardless of energy scheme, is sustainable for the majority of the world's population. I maintain that land use and property laws should be such that most people live near where they work. A corrollary to this, being that most people don't work in agriculture or forestry, is that most people will live in cities, or at least urban areas (including small towns), where they will walk or bike for the majority of their trips, take public transit for most of the remainder, and only occasionally use an automobile or airplane. The only land configuration that allows for the majority of trip termini to be within casual walking distance is a high density configuration. In most urban areas today, cars take up 50% of the land. In order for such areas to be considered 'livable' e.g. including parks, public places, and the general absence of skycrapers, the space used by cars must be reclaimed. One alternative is to provide for several nearby transit options as well as a network of pedestrian streets, which 1) could take up less than half the space taken by cars and 2) be a quality of life contributer (vibrant pedestrian plaza) rather than detractor (congested and polluted throughway)

[rfkrfk]

10. the platinum will be recycled,

of course.

I'm not sure I believe the 98 kw.

since platinum content seems to be a secret,
I don't believe anything anyone writes about that.

these people have yet to make a case that
there ever would be enough platinum for a reasonable
fraction of the world's cars to be powered by fuel cells

[dcfirefighter]

11. 98 kW = 140 hp

I didn't have a dynamometer, but it accelerated as if there were a very very quiet 4 cyl motor in it.

[NNadir]

12. Why would one wish to substitute a gas with a higher boiling point

for one with one of the lowest known boiling points, and for that matter, one of the lowest known critical temperatures?

It makes no sense whatsoever.

[dcfirefighter]

13. I asked how much was lost vs. put in cars

The answer 'A lot'. In fairness, there is very little usage of the pumps - there aren't many Hydrogen cars around. But I got the impression that a very significant portion of the delivered hydrogen leaked to the atmosphere.

My guess as to your answer?

COAL

We've got it, lots of it, and it could be atmospheric carbon neutral if H were stripped from it leaving the C in nice even piles somewhere, to be used as filters, soil amendments, or just packed back into the ground.

http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/fuels/hydrogen/Hydrogen_from_Coal_R&D.html

Not saying I support it. I actually think that the 'Hydrogen Economy' was concocted to maintian demand for oil for years to come (cui bene?), as well as to extend the reign of the rentiers:
If you 'own' an oil well, you benefit from millions of years of accumulation - you profit from the ownership of natural wealth.
Same goes for Coal, if the population will let you use it.
Conversely, alternatives such as nuclear, solar, wind, etc. are less succeptible to 'enclosure' of the commons.

Put it this way: when you buy oil, you pay competitive rates for refining, shipping, and retail - those jobs are generally done on an open world market, and their costs are minimized through competition. A large part of the oil price (more than half?) goes to pay for the privelege of accessing this bit of natural wealth. IOW, you are paying whoever 'owns' the well. Every dollar spent here allows this entity to 'purchase' more natural weath from which to exclude you.

When you buy nuclear, solar, or wind power, you are paying for things men built: turbines, reactors, collector panels, etc. Every dollar you spend here, after all the parts and labor are paid for, gives that entity to build more and more capital which which to provide more energy.

Back to Adam Smith, and the factors of production: Land + Labor + Capital = Wealth
Fossil fuels are largely dependent on Land, which has no labor input.
Nuclear and Renewable energy are largely dependent on Capital, which, itself, is largely dependent on Labor

One excludes the people, to their expense; the other employs the people, to their benefit.

[Celtic warrior]

14. Hybrids

I bought a Prius last year, very happy with it, virtually no emissions and I get 42 miles to the gallon, not bad