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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:00 PM
Original message
Are Category 4 and 5 hurricanes increasing in number?
The arguments against sea surface temperature (SST) increases linked to increasing hurricane strength are (below) that the measured temperature increases just don't account for enough increase in energy.

It caused me to wonder: what if the effects of SST are being looked at the wrong way? Maybe it's more clarifying to say that lower SST acts as a brake on storm development, and that as temps rise, that brake goes away. It would be related to the "deep vortex" theory that has been proposed to explain the rapid intensifications we say this year. Increasing frequency of storms, and cat-4-plus storms, are happening not because of the increase in heat energy at the ocean surface, but because the ocean surface is passing some critical point, where it fails to act as a brake on storm development. The resulting storm is out of proportion to the relatively small heat increase from the ocean surface.

In September 2005, a paper published in Science magazine reported that worldwide, the number of Category 4 and 5 hurricanes had increased 80% in the past 30 years. The paper, (Webster et al., 2005), titled "Changes in Tropical Cyclone Number, Duration, and Intensity in a Warming Environment", linked the rise in storms to increasing sea surface temperatures and concluded that "global data indicate a 30-year trend toward more frequent and intense hurricanes." The authors, led by Dr. Peter Webster of Georgia Tech and Dr. Greg Holland of the National Center for Atmospheric Research, argued that this was consistent with climate models that have predicted a future increase in frequency of the most intense hurricanes due to human-emitted greenhouse gases. This paper, along with another paper published in August, "Increasing Destructiveness of Tropical Cyclones over the past 30 years", by Dr. Kerry Emanuel of MIT, showing an increase in hurricane power and longevity in recent years, created a huge stir in the media. However, there is a large amount of uncertainty in the hurricane intensity data used by both papers, and their findings should be considered as preliminary evidence that the global incidence of Category 4 and 5 hurricanes may be increasing. There are good reasons to believe that the actual increase in Category 4 and 5 hurricanes is far lower than the 80% increase found by Webster et al.

(...)

The theoretical basis for connecting hurricane intensity and global warming
Hurricanes act as giant heat engines, so it is logical to assume that an increase in sea surface temperatures (SSTs) will make more intense hurricanes. Indeed, there is a general consensus among hurricane scientists that an increase in SSTs due to global warming, should, in theory, lead to more intense hurricanes. Theory predicts that hurricane wind speeds should increase about 5% for every 1 degree Centigrade increase in tropical ocean temperature (Emanuel, 1987). Computer models confirm this tendency, but assign a slightly smaller magnitude to the increase (Knutson and Tuleya, 2004). Given the expected 1.5° to 4.5° C warming of Earth's climate expected by 2100, theory predicts a gradually increasing frequency of Category 4 and 5 storms.

Global warming in the past century has increased ocean temperatures about 1°F (0.5°C) which should correspond at most to about a 2.5% increase in hurricane wind speeds. If this theory is correct, an upper-end Category 3 hurricane with wind speeds of 130 mph--like Hurricane Katrina at landfall--owes 2-3 mph of its sustained winds to global warming. Hurricane wind speeds are estimated to the nearest 5 knots (5.8 mph), and one can get a general idea of what percent increase we've seen in Category 4 and 5 hurricanes due to global warming by looking at the number of high end Category 3 hurricanes (winds of 130 mph) and low end Category 4 hurricanes (135 mph winds). If we assume a 2-3 mph increase in winds of these storms is due to global warming over the past 35 years, one would expect to see a 5% increase at most in Category 4 and 5 hurricanes. An increase this small is not detectable given the current accuracy of estimating hurricane winds, and the relatively few number of of these storms that occur each year. This expected maximum 5% increase is quite a disagreement with the 80% increase found by Webster et al.! So, either the measurements are wrong, or the theory is wrong--or a combination of the two. I believe it may well be a combination of the two. The fact that the originator of the intensity theory (Kerry Emanuel) is one of the scientists who is advocating that the theory may be in error, is reason enough to doubt the theory. The formation and intensification of hurricanes are not well understood, and it would be no surprise if major revisions to intensity theory are made in the future. However, such a wide difference between the theory and the reported trends should make us suspicious of the observed data, as well.

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=327&tstamp=200603
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. YES!
We're due for more this year, in an ever increasing number of months to be included in hurricane season.

Sue
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I predict the first Atlantic T.S. in May this year.
There, I'm on the record.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. 2003 first named storm in april, maybe the longest season
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 05:25 PM by pitohui
in 2003 the first storm, ana, formed april 21 and the last, peter, in december, i believe odette, which also formed in december, was the last killer storm of the season (she killed 2)

in 2005 the season did not begin until arlene on june 9

of course 2005 went on into sometime january but i think they cut it off officially at the end of december so i'm not sure which season is officially the longest

i'm too lazy to actually calculate the exact number of days right now

2005 won all the other records so let 2003 have something is i guess my view but that's not too scientific!

my pick for the first named storm of 2006 would be early june, but i would expect wide, wide variance on a bet like this

my wild-eyed guess is that most of the mess will be later in the season, with storm after storm more in the mid-august to mid-october time frame but more of the late storms we saw last year

this is not any science behind it, more a gambler's hunch that i wouldn't mind seeing proved wrong since i got no real $$ on it
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. Not sure...
About your second point, that is. The impression I had it that it was heat from the sea that fuel TS development in the first place, so it would be more intuitive to say high SST drives storms. :shrug: Maybe just me.

Reminds of a argument (maybe on RealClimate) about whether lowering pH from 8 to 7 was 'more acidic' or 'less alkaline'. :D

I think we can take point 1 as a given.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Another big source of energy is water vapor...
dragged into the system from hundreds of miles around.

In fact, I suspect that water vapor is the larger source of energy. Last year I tried to estimate Katrina's storm energy from the change in Gulf surface temp. I was low, by a factor of 25. It may be that the storm drew heat from a much greater depth than I assumed (I think I assumed 3 feet), but I have a hard time believing it stuck it's roots down to 75 feet. (as if I'd know)
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. what do you do?
is this part of your job or are you just an interested observer? it sounds like you know quite a lot
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I'm a computer scientist, and generic opinionated dilletante.
I read enough to come up with interesting questions (interesting to me, that is). Not to be confused with expertise, that's for sure.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Erm, good point.
I'm looking at the wrong end, I think - the start of a TS maybe drawing on SST, but once it's up & running (which is the bit I'm supposed to be thinking about) it plays a lesser role.

Brain failure. I'll shut up and have another coffee.
:donut:
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. For giggles, I posted my idea on Jeff Master's blog...
maybe an actual hurricane specialist will comment on it.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. let us know what he says!
some of it's a bit much for me on first read, i'll have to come back and review again later

unfortunately we were still guilty of using punch cards that's how advanced computers were when i was in college! i have to take a lot of computer modeling on faith
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. It's certainly worth consideration
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 05:48 PM by Dead_Parrot
I'll check wunderground later and see what happens... It's here for anyone else interested...
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. well i'll have to review that cite again
but the scientists don't seem to be in much agreement on this issue and gray says they are exaggerating the effect and i happen to think that gray knows something abt hurricanes after all these years and beers -- the 80 percent figure quoted may be an exaggeration

it is too bad that all this is happening at a time when the atlantic hurricane cycle would be expected to be on the upswing, it is difficult to separate any global warming effects from the normal effects of the cycle

our satellite coverage even over the atlantic ocean was sadly lacking in the 1930s :-( we are bedeviled by being a young civilization working w. a lack of data

be that as it may, i don't know why humanity should tolerate any more of these storms than we have to, if we CAN change weather, we need a manhattan style project to change it to something decent, there is no question that we are having effects in the artic/antarctic/high mountain peaks and we may do better among scientists pointing to problems where we already have strong science

but if pointing to the hurricanes gets people off their ass and gets better science funded, why not, the time to take action on this was yesterday

so i guess i am saying i am unconvinced that the atlantic hurricane cycle is linked to global warming but if positing such a link gets people moving, it's certainly an issue worth raising
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Boomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Oh sure, let's just change the weather
Let's prevent hurricanes, for our convenience, and damn the consequences to anything else. That philosophy has worked so well for us as a species, no reason to change it now.

But, just for the record, hurricanes are more than just a "nuisance." In the aftermath of a hurricane, ocean waters are cooled, so preventing hurricanes is a bit like jamming the ocean thermostat. And hurricanes help to churn the deeper, nutrient-rich layers of the ocean and bring them to the surface where the nourish sea life. But who the heck cares whether species starve as long as we save our ocean front properties.

There may well be more benefits and more unseen consequences of stopping one of the greatest natural forces on earth, but since when has that stopped humans from mucking around with nature? Let's just do it and see what happens!
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. i take it you live far from the coast somewhere
Edited on Tue Mar-28-06 03:16 PM by pitohui
the hurricanes need to go and if there are consequences we are creative, we can deal

the current situation is completely intolerable

my friends and i should not be at risk of death by drowning for some theoretical benefit that may or may not exist from these huge killer hurricanes

seems to me we did just fine in the 70s and 80s w. few cat 4s and cat 5s, in fact, better than we're doing now

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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Oh dear
It would appear from your comments that you weren't being sarcastic
in your post the other day about "changing the weather" ...

Has it not occurred to you that the reason why you "only" had a
"few cat 4s and cat 5s" was that the planet's energy system wasn't
under as much strain as it is now? That maybe a few decades of
uncontrolled fossil energy consumption and pollution by an ever
growing population might just have something to do with tipping
the scales this way? That anyone even half-way to sanity will
recognise the total fuck-up that humanity has made of this planet
through their "shit we can do it so we *will* do it!" attitude?

> my friends and i should not be at risk of death by drowning for some
> theoretical benefit that may or may not exist from these huge killer
> hurricanes

Your friends and you should move to higher ground rather than playing
at King Canute's advisers ...

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Boomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Me first, world be damned
Edited on Thu Mar-30-06 02:07 PM by Boomer
> my friends and i should not be at risk of death by drowning for some
> theoretical benefit that may or may not exist from these huge killer
> hurricanes

Yup, it's exactly that kind of attitude that has gotten us into our present dilemma. Why should we be inconvenienced by conserving resources, controlling our population, preserving forests when we have the right to cut down every tree in sight, kill every animal, build anywhere we want, yada yada yada.

But I greatly suspect that we have met our match with Cat 5 hurricanes. The amount of heat energy released by an average hurricane is equivalent to the amount of electric energy produced by the U.S. in an entire year. That's not an easy beast to tame.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
16. "Is Global Warming Strengthening The Power Of Hurricanes?"
on UCTV and online:

http://www.uctv.tv/search-details.asp?showID=11247


I saw this recently. Looked like pretty clear graphs showing the increase of Cat. 4s & 5s over the last 30 years.


Also mentioned that 84% of the warming from greenhouse gases is being stored in the oceans.
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