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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 07:14 AM
Original message
My thoughts on carrying capacity, resource depletion, and overpopulation.
Greeatings to all!

I have composed this somewhat lengthy writing on the environment. I ask you to please read it, and then offer any polite comments that you wish to say, whether you agree or disagree. I would be interested in reading any specific comments in your own words where you explain specifically why you agree or disagree. I realize that this essay challenges much of the "conventional wisdom that everyone knows is true," and so I invite responses to hear whatever opinions you may have of it.

* * * * *

Over the years, I have heard a large number of environmentalists say things along the following lines:

"The earth's carrying capacity has been exceeded. The earth is overpopulated with too many human beings. We currently use 3 or 4 planet earths to maintain our current lifestyle. Our present population and standard of living are not sustainable. In the long run, the earth's carrying capacity cannot support the current population. As the population grows in the future, we will be forced to face lower standards of living. Overpopulation causes poverty, famine, water shortages, energy shortages, and depletion of natural resources. As the population continues to grow, and as more people try to obtain a higher standard of living, these problems will continue to get worse. The earth cannot continue to take this. If everyone was willing to cut back on their consumption of natural resources, the earth might be able to support 3 or 4 billion people. But if everyone wants a first world standard of living, then the earth can only support 1 or 2 billion people. Anything above that is unsustainable."

Such a statement is based on the mistaken belief that human beings are parasites who consume resources.

The truth is the opposite. Human beings are creative beings who use their minds to increase the supply and availability of resources.

In fact, I would argue that the very term "natural resource" is meaningless, and I would like to offer some real world examples to explain why.

As one example, please consider petroleum. For most of human history, petroleum was worthless. In fact, it had negative value, because it was a nuisance that got in the way of people who were digging water wells.

But in the 19th century, a human being with a brain figured out a way to use the petroleum as fuel, and all of a sudden, the petroleum acquired value.

So what is the real resource in this case? Is it the petroleum, or, is it the human brain that figured out how to use the petroleum?

And today, with thermal depolymerization, we can turn garbage into oil at a cost of $15 per barrel. Imagine that! We can turn garbage into oil! Wow! Again, this is because of the human brain.

Another example is that today, we take worthless sand, and we turn it into valuable computer chips that are worth trillions of dollars. Again, what is the real resource? Is it the sand, or it is the human brain?

Several decades ago, telephone signals were carried on copper wire. But today, we use fiber optic cable instead. Compared to the copper wire, the fiber optic cable carries more information, but it uses fewer atoms of material. Again, what's the real resource here? Is it the physical material in the fiber optic cable, or, is it the human brain?

Of course, not every country is doing these kinds of things. The human mind functions best when people are free. As a general rule, the freer the people, the more the people will use their minds to improve the quality of life.

As an example, please compare South Korea to North Korea. The two countries have similar geography and climate, similar cultures, similar "natural resources," similar population densities, etc. But South Korea is a rich country with a first world standard of living and all of the modern conveniences, while North Korea is a third world country whose people are suffering from famine, water shortages, energy shortages, etc.

The explanation for why South Korea is so rich while North Korea is so poor is because of the differences in the two countries' legal and economic institutions. South Korea is a free country with private property rights, the rule of law, enforcement of contracts, and a free market pricing system to encourage efficient use, allocation, and distribution of resources. North Korea does not have these institutions.

I would now like to point out some of the past predictions that were made regarding the subject of "overpopulation," and explain *why* these predictions failed to come true. When I use the term "overpopulation doomsayers," I am referring to people such as Paul Ehrlich and Lester Brown, and the millions of people who share their beliefs. These poeple aren't "stupid." On the contrary, many of them are highly intelligent, and they tend to have high I.Q.s, and many have college degrees. However, they are misinformed, and many of their beliefs are mistaken. I would like to explain why their beliefs are in error.

The "overpopulation doomsayers" who predicted a worsening of third world famine as the world's population doubled from 3 billion to 6 billion were wrong. Despite what Paul Ehrlich and other "doomsayers" predicted in the 1960s and 1970s, the truth is that over the past few decades, per capita food production has increased in China, India, Latin America, the developing world in general, and the world as a whole.

The "doomsayers" were wrong in their claim that the Chinese famines of the 1960s were caused by "overpopulation." And the "doomsayers" were wrong in their prediction that as China's population got bigger, its problem of famine would get worse. In reality, China's famines of the 1960s were caused by bad economic policies, not by "overpopulation." China's switch from collective farming to private farming in the late 1970s caused a tremendous increase in per capita food production. Today, China's population is much bigger than it was in the 1960s. And today, the people of China are much better fed than they were in the 1960s.

Despite what Paul Ehrlich and other "doomsayers" want us to believe, Africa actually has a low population density, and its land is very rich in many valuable "natural resources," and it has many large tracts of fertile land that are sitting idle, unplanted, with no crops being grown. The real cause of African famine is bad economic policies, not "overpopulation." Collective ownership of farmland discourages farmers from planting crops, because the person who plants the crop is not necessarily the person who gets to harvest it. Government price caps on food discourage farmers from growing food.

Poor countries remain poor because of corrupt government, bad economic policies, and a lack of strong protections of private property rights. Whenever a poor country adopts strong protections of private property rights, free market pricing, and free trade, combined with a strong rule of law, and enforcement of contracts, and holds on to these policies, the country experiences tremendous increases in its standard of living. Recent examples of poor countries transforming themselves into rich countries include Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, and South Korea, and all of this happened while these countries experienced substantial increases in their populations. Paul Ehrlich said this was impossible, but real world experience proves that Ehrlich was wrong.

In the rich capitalist countries with a first world standard of living, the air and water have been getting cleaner. Once per capita GNP in a country reaches about $4,000, people can start to afford worrying about protecting the environment. And the richer the country gets, the better off its environment becomes. Just as richer people have better access to food, housing, clothing, education, and health care, they also have better access to a cleaner and healthier environment.

On privately owned timberland, the greedy landowner is concerned about the future resale value of his land, so he usually plants more trees than he cuts down.

On privately owned fish farms, fish populations keep getting bigger and bigger. Overfishing is not a problem at all on privately owned fish farms.

Government price caps on the price of water keep the price artificially low. This artificially low price encourages people to waste water. Also, this artificially low price prevents many water suppliers from being able to afford desalination plants. 70% of the world's surface is covered in water, to an average depth of 2 miles. Water "shortages" are caused by bad economic policies, not by an actual lack of water.

The "doomsayers" who predicted that before the year 2000, the world would run out of oil, copper, gold, iron, tin, and aluminum, were wrong. In a free market, with private ownership of resources, and free market pricing, it's impossible to run out of a resource. Scarcity of a resource leads to higher prices. Higher prices encourage users to conserve. Higher prices encourage suppliers to look for more of the resource, and/or to find a cheaper substitute. The "doomsayers" don't understand the function of prices in a free market economy, and that's why their predictions of "running out" of resources have been consistently wrong.

The "doomsayers" of the 18th century who worried about running out of candle wax and whale oil never realized that things like petroleum and electricity and light bulbs would come along. The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones, and the petroleum age won't end because we run out of petroleum.
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premjan Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. yaaayy!!
you're a philosopher who has managed to find a positive slant to things. Congratulations. You have about as much chance of being right as anyone else. As to what will really happen, we shall have to wait and see.

Sorry for not being more positive than that.
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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thanks.
Yeah. I too am curious to wait and see what happens.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. With that kind of money-centric world view
...I doubts about yours being so passive a role.

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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Money is simply a tool for measurement.
Money is a tool. Money makes it so that people don't have to barter. Money makes it much easier to weigh the costs/benefits on one policy vs. another. Prices make it much easier to judge one course of action vs. another.

Every day, you make a huge number of decisions based partly on money. What kinds of food you will eat, what kinds of clothes you will wear, what kind of housing you will have, what kinds of furniture and appliances you will have, what kind of transportation you will use, etc. Money helps you to use your time, labor, resources, and possessions more efficently.

Criticizing money isn't really much different than criticizing inches or feet or miles or minutes or seconds or hours or degrees Fahrenheit or pounds or ounces or grams or kilograms.

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TennesseeWalker Donating Member (925 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
41. Agreed. I would hate to carry a caribou skin around with me all day....
...just to buy gasoline for my SUV.
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. technology is not the problem, human nature is
in a rational world, you'd be 100% correct.

but in a world where a projected $600 billion is spent with basically no serious public debate on a unnecessary war based on lies, i submit your optimism is somewhat less that 100% justified. i haven't done the calculations, but i'd be willing to bet that if this $600,000,000,000 was instead spent on installing solar panels and wind-powered generators, enough of these 'pie-in-the-sky' alternate sources of energy would be available to completely negate the need for any of the iraqi oil. furthermore, a considerable number of high paying jobs would be generated in the process.

similarly, a complete lack of understanding of technical issues installs irrational paranoia in even otherwise sensible people (such as members of democratic underground - creationist-educated graduates of the kansas public school system are likely to lag even further behind). a couple of examples of what i'm refering to are almost always extant on the first 2 or 3 pages of this forum where there are usually active threads advocating the banning of genetically modified organisms and anything 'nuclear' in nature.

sure, both of these technologies could be badly abused, but they also have great potential if used responsibly - and results are apt to be very dire if they are 'banned.' for example, gmo's play an indispensible role in biomedical research, and even though you didn't focus on it in your treatise, i believe that overcoming many of the diseases that plague mankind (e.g., cancer in the 1st world, malaria in the 3rd) is a necessary part of achieving your rosy scenario. if gmo's are banned, there's no chance of that happening in the foreseeable future.

btw, i used the whale oil example a while ago to make a similar point as you and was roundly chastised - i'm interested to see if you'll bring that group of naysayers out of the woodwork.
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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Great points.
I know that nuclear power plants in the U.S. have numerous redundant backup and safety features, so that a Chernobyl type disaster is impossible here. And burning coal actually releases more radiation into the air than using nuclear power.

The military budget is way too high.

Any "war for oil" will always fail a cost/benefit analysis. When you include the cost of the war to taxpayers, the price of oil is much higher than what you pay at the pump. Furthermore, the owner of the oil will always sell the oil simply out of greed anyway, so there's no need for a war to get the oil.

In recent decades, wind and solar power have become substantially more efficient, and if this trend continues, these sources of power will eventually become so cost effective that they will not even need a government subsidy.

Thermal depolymerization makes drilling at ANWR a moot issue, in my opinion.

The "naysayers" are welcome to comment in any way that they desire.
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cog_diss Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. OK, I'll bite
Nuclear - Isn't it a bit of a monumental arrogance to assume we could produce the most nasty waste products ever created (Dioxin, PCB, Cesium, etc. etc.) for over 100 years just so we could get more for less? Who are we passing the fruits of our ingenuity on to? Our children and grandchildren, and on down the line, that's who. And have we made them richer? No, the opposite, see: budget deficit, social security, global warming.

GMO - another bit of monumental arrogance. Why don't we just stop cooking and let the govt inject us with daily nutrients instead? I have nothing against people wanting to try the stuff, but it should be in its own aisle at the market and grown underwater so it doesn't contaminate the stuff we have got by on for 1000s of years.

From where I stand, Fatman and Tallboy were dropped on the wrong country. We would have saved millions more lives in the war on stupidity.
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. maybe i don't understand your post
Edited on Sun Aug-17-03 10:01 AM by treepig
but it's not clear to me what the relevance of dioxins and pcb are to nuclear power. and as far as global warming goes, that's one area where nuclear power will be a big help. as far as management of nuclear waste, please refer the following thread for discussion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=518

and it's not clear to me how your mini-rant on gmo's has anything to do with their use in biomedical research? more at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=298

any clarification of what i'm missing here would help!
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cog_diss Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. glueless kit
Your natural resources must have been used up by the 12th grade.

You have no idea what happened in China in the 60s. As for Korea, I bet Kim Jong Il is a lot richer than Kim Dae Jung - does this mean he is a better capitalist?

Do you also believe in marketplace "Forest Stewardship"?
Producing CO2 will help grow more trees? What exactly can you do with a strip mine when it's used up?

You are talking about richer countries cherishing their environment as if everyone has access to camping in Yosemite at the weekend. Typical white-supremacist claptrap. In the US, the "environment" is a possession of the wealthy, and has value precisely because most of us can't have it. Supply and demand, the mother of all inequity. It certainly isn't out of some enlightened notion of taking care of the world.

Show me a free market - it'll only be free because free market types haven't found a way to control it.

I know you are a troll, or maybe you actually think being libertarian is a valid excuse, but please get a passport (they are free) and travel the world to see what it actually looks like. Most of the time, the third world didn't fuck themselves up, they were fucked by us and are just living with the consequences. 1492 and all that.
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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Hi there!
As for Korea, I bet Kim Jong Il is a lot richer than Kim Dae Jung - does this mean he is a better capitalist?

No. Being rich doesn't make him a capitalist. The North Korean dictator got his money from theft, not from selling goods and services to willing buyers.

Do you also believe in marketplace "Forest Stewardship"?

Yes. But I also believe in having local, state, and federal parks - for all people, whether they are rich, middle class, or poor.

Producing CO2 will help grow more trees?

I said nothing about carbon dioxide.

What exactly can you do with a strip mine when it's used up?

Lots of things. You can cover it with soil and fertilizer and plant trees and grass and flowers. You can put up a golf course. You could build a brothel. You could build housing. You could build a shopping mall. You could open up a drive in movie theater. You could do just about anything.

By the way, I don't think you actually disagreed with any of the specific things that I said.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
40. .."get a passport (they are free".).. eek.. if ONLY that were true
My husband and I just spent $320.00 on Friday for TWO passports.. :)..

But Tahiti will be worth the expense..:)

I agree with you , otherwise :)
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. Are ecologists REALLY idiots? Reply to ecological sophomorism
Edited on Sun Aug-17-03 10:17 PM by HereSince1628
Ok, having 12 years teaching experience at the college level I will admit that it is risky to enter into the realm of sophomoric argumentation, but, in the interest of developing a mind and educating a broader readership I'll take this opportunity to make a few suggestions...

The term "carrying capacity" implies that at least one essential factor for population growth is limited. And BTW, not everything that might popularly be considered a resource is a consumable.

The question of whether carrying capacity is a characteristic of the environment or of a population has both academic and practical implications which I won't pursue. But, the reality of carry capacity of an environment for a particular species is a relatively well developed ecological principle that originated with the study of fertilizers in the mid-1800's.

In as much as a population can adapt, either in a long term evolutionary sense or in the short term ecological sense, to "resource" shortages through greater efficiencies or by switching to alternative sources to meet its needs, a population could be released from one limiting factor and allowed to progress toward a "new" carrying capacity that may be completely unrelated to the original limiting factor (or it may be related to the original limiting factor).

That said I suggest several comments for you to ponder as you develop what in my opinion is your weak argument...

1. Your post rests on the idea that the carrying capacity of the human population is a characteristic of the species. Carrying capacity can also be considered a quality of the environment, including, in the case of people, the relationship of humans to food, disease and predatory populations...

2. Your reliance on consumable "resources" fails to take into account that not all critical limiting factors (such as space) are consumed and this is a point on wherein your argument shifts...

3. the issue from biological carrying capacity to economic capacity. Although economic carrying capacity (how many shoe stores a community can support) has similarities to biological carrying capacity, the two are NOT identical. I think your shift is a significant rhetorical short-coming. I could take up a lot of space in a demonstration dedicated to humiliating your knowledge of ecosystems on this point if that were my motivation, but it is not.

4. Finally, your post takes a rather narrow view by only considering the population of one species at a time. This has implications for considering various forms of ecological resistance to population growth and it ignores the fact that the ecological costs of the gains in one species' (i.e. human) carrying capacity may fall onto other species.


So. Why would anyone think that there is a limit to the size of a population? Are ecologists really blind to realities or have they considered things differently than you?

I think it is the later.

To keep this simple, consider the principle needs of biological populations: energy inputs, nutrients, and space.

The vast majority of life that we are familiar with utilizes sunlight as an energy source. While there is some variation in solar output (solar storms, flares etc.) and the planet's interception of that energy (the distance of earth from the sun is not constant, consequently it intercepts slightly different quanta of energy depending upon its position relative to the sun), for all practical purposes solar input is considered a constant.

It follows that the rate of photosynthesis (terrestrial primary productivity) must ultimately be constrained by this fixed amount of incoming light. Solar availability certainly limits life on the planet, particularly in aquatic environments where the scattering of light with increasing depth results in insufficient availability of light to support photosynthesis and results in a "profundal zone." Similarly, life in caves is constrained by the energy inputs of organic molecules from the surface, since light does not penetrate far beyond the entrance.

Life on earth requires nutrients; these are chiefly C, H, O, P, K, N, S, Ca, Fe and a number of other micronutrients (magnesium, boron, selinium, etc.) are needed in lesser amounts. Ignoring the input of these chemicals from extraterrestrial sources, the amount of these materials on the planet is fixed. Some of these materials are bound up in sedementary rock which may be mined by humans, thus somewhat increasing, the availability of particular nutrients as mineral fertilizer.

However, that doesn't change the notion that there is a fixed upper limit of each nutrient on the planet. Even allowing input from "off-plant sources" which contribute a very very small percentage of weight to the planet each year, the ultimate expansion of life on the planet must be limited by the nutrients that are here at any given time.

Life is three dimensional...it takes up space. The planet has ultimately a limited amount of space available. This is particularly so for space that is associated with the necessities of a species' existence. Consequently, red pines do not grow in the sea and species of coral do not grow in the desert.

Many animals have specific spatial requirements for nesting and feeding. Consequently a very small area of the entire planet may provide critically important space to a particular population. For example the feeding/resting needs of shorebirds during migration are met by very small areas, small enough to be significanctly reduced by human development of shorelines. In the US the shorelines of Delaware Bay are important to the survival of many populations of shorebirds that migrate from Canada to central and southern America.

This brings me to my last point. Humans are not alone in the scheme of life. We share the planet with populations of other species, which also have energy, nutrient and spacial needs. Because we are animals, we are dependent upon consuming these other organisms or their products to obtain essential energy and nutrient needs. The "purple bacteria" found in anerobic muck of wetlands and shallow in-shore areas contribute to the "recycling" of the oxygen upon which you and I depend for life... It is short sighted to think that the expansion of the human population does not depend upon or have impacts on other species.

The fallout of the human population bomb has had impacts on the entire range of species on the planet. Although humans may avoid the direct impacts of their numbers through the application of technology, the damage caused by human population size is evidenced clearly enough in the degradation of the quality and availability of "resources" needed by other species. Human population growth has had devatastating impacts on the global community. Not surprisingly non-human populations are disappearing in disappointingly high numbers per unit of time.

So, in closing, while I admit to not exhausting an attack on your post, let me be honest. I find your posting lacking in an informed perspective. Perhaps this is because of your educational level which seems to be not beyond the high-school level(in which case I say--get informed. You will be surprised and enlightened by what ecologists have come to understand), but more likely because of some ideological origin to which I say--go sow your seeds of ignorance elsewhere, they will be weeded out here.

Your argument fails to acknowledge ecological realities. It shifts from the biological realm to the economic realm apparently without an awareness that this shift is taking place. It presumes that human interests are the preimminent interests to be considered. To which I say your ideas are speciest...the equivalent of racism but applied across all species on the planet.

I could get into many little detailed arguments, but at this point I would simply say "Welcome to DU." This is a place where your ideas can be tried out. On reflection of the comments of myself and others you can develop your personal understanding and your aguments. I urge you to study ecological principles such as carrying capacity before you write about them.

I personally think you have a lot of reading and thinking to do considering the environment. But then, that is my personal opinion, based only on 7 years of graduate education and twenty years of work in ecology. Other Du'ers may be much more welcoming to your ideas...


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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. My response
Rich countries do a better job of protecting species than do poor countries.

In poor countries, people chop down lots of trees to use the wood for fuel. And they chop down the trees to make room to plant crops.

In rich countries, people use more efficienct forms of fuel, such as coal, oil, natural gas, and nuclear. This allows forests to be replanted. This provides more habitat for species to live in. Rich countries use modern farming technology, which allows more food to be grown on less land. This allows forests to be replanted, providing more room for animal species habitat.

Also, rich countires can afford to spend huge amounts of money to protect endangered species. But in poor countries, where people have trouble obtaining basic food and shelter, they can't afford to have the luxury of worrying about endangered species.

I agree with you that the amount of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, etc. does limit the size of the human population. But that would place the limit at trillions of even quadrillions, not the few billions that many environmentalists claim.

If sunlight places a limit, then we can build solar collectors in space to get more than we could ever possibly need - in the future when our technology will enable us to do this efficiently. Right now, nuclear power and oil and other sources can and do provide more than enough energy to supply us with all of our energy needs.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Could you be just a LITTLE empirical?
You write "...that would place the limit at trillions of even quadrillions, not the few billions that many environmentalists claim."

A trillion is one thousand billion. Try to imagine the demands one thousand billion people would have on the landscape. I admit to having trouble trying to imagine 200 times more people on the planet. I think you are simply blowing smoke out of your ass when you suggest that the planet could support quadrillions. Can you really provide an empirically based, rational argument, that the earth could support a thousand trillion, or 200,000 times more humans than are already here?

I am convinced your argument is pure frass.



The remainder of my reply is me writing to myself because with the Cubs no longer defending first place in their division I have nothing better to do...

so...

I am in doubt that your first sentence is true. I am certain that your attempt to support it with your "alternatives to wood-burning" argument is a failure. There is no cause-effect relationship there. As a counter example, Brazil, which invested heavily in alcohol production from sugar cane, as well as hydro-electric power, nonetheless simultaneously encouraged colonization of forested lands for farming and ranching. The result was tremendous reduction in the forest of northeastern Brazil.

Increased farming productivity DOES NOT necessarily free land to return to its pre-European settlement condition. Iowa is part of the richest country on the planet. Farmers there use the most modern technology they can afford. Iowa ISN'T becoming a forest. It isn't even returning, in any significant fraction, to the grassland ecosystem that existed their prior to European colonization. The reason for this is that productive agricultural land is far too valuable to set aside. Nonetheless, once the farms have failed the economic issues change, and this is in large part, how the US came to acquire the lands of the Smokey Mountains National Park.

My point is simply this, while the net area of the US covered by forest is increasingly slightly, this isn't due to the availability of alternative energy sources so much as it is to the economics of farming and ranching.

Your suggestion concerning the use of mirrors to increase solar input is wonderfully fanciful in a science fiction sort of way. But somewhat thoughtless about consequences. Since science fiction appeals to you, and I have nothing more pressing to consider, I'll indulge myself in an exploration of plausible outcomes of such a fanciful fix.

Increasing solar input is akin to having the earth in a closer orbit to the sun. Imagine that we could increase the input of solar energy to the planet by say, five percent. Once delivered to the planet in whatever useful form, in keeping with the laws of thermodynamics, this energy would ultimately be degraded to heat.

What is the impact of the increase of all that heat? All the ecosystems on the planet are fine-tuned to current inputs...things would change...probably not only in good ways. To counter your optimistic view of such a fanciful world, here are a few pessimistic considerations of the outcome of that same science fiction.

I doubt that an increase of planetary temperature by a degree or two would be very welcome to people living in low-lying seaside communities. I suppose in your capitalist world this creates new economies as entire cities will need to be modified or moved to accomodate rising water levels. The desert belts would likely become larger and drier (a consequence of stronger convection forces in Hadley cycles). But the jobs produced would certainly boost the economy as in the American plains pipelines were constructed to carry freshwater from Lake Michigan to Kansas, Nebraska, S. Dakota, and eastern Colorado. Yes, this would certainly be a good thing, especially for Halliburton (I expect they would get the contract without bidding).

The warming would also be good for mosquitos and the disease agents they carry. Mosquitos could remain active longer during the year and further north. Come to think of it, that might solve Bush's problems with the noisy Canadians (you know a BUNCH of them speak FRENCH!!!), and it would be good for the companies that produce insecticides, wouldn't it? Ah, the sound of low-flying aerial-spray planes and the smell of DDT in the Canadian swamps in the morning! My it takes me back to the smells of DuPont...

Given that an increase in heat would also increase convection currents in the atmosphere, increased volitility of weather would probably result. But, what in your view are a few more category 3 and 4 hurricanes and cyclones? Or a few more thousand square miles devasted by tornadoes each year? Don't you think the costs of reconstruction they would generate would be offset by the gains from energy input?

Even if the ocean could absorb most of the heat without generating evil outcomes in the immediate weather, each fractional increase in ocean temperature would decrease the oceans' capaciy to hold dissolved gasses. Just as bubbles form in a glass of cold water as it warms, the ocean would give up gases--including carbon dioxide. This would certainly provide additional available carbon dioxide for photosynthesis, a windfall in a critical nutrient, but insignificant I think compared to the increased costs of concommitant increase in global warming...

I could go on but I think you get the point. Let's drop the science fiction defenses and stay in the realm of reality.

























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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. My response
You were the one who said that the amount of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, etc., placed an upper limit on the size of the human population. So I simply said that if we are to go by that, then this limit would be in the trillions or quadrillions. I said this based on my rough guess about how much carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, etc., there is in the earth. Right now, the mass of the human population uses approximately 0% of these elements that exist on the earth.

500 years ago in North America, it took thousands of acres of land to feed one human being (buffalo hunting). Today, one acre of land feeds many human beings (modern agriculture). So yes, farm productivity has greatly improved.

Brazil is a poor country with a low per capita GNP. If Brazil was rich, it would use more efficient farming techniques.

I wasn't thinking of mirrors. I was thinking of having giant solar panels orbiting the earth, and converting the sunlight into electricity while in orbit, and having them send a laser or other kind of electronic beam of energy down to the earth, and for us to then convert that back into electricity. I don't think this would cause the earth to get hotter. Or would it? I'm not sure.

Using coal, oil, natural gas, or nuclear power to power one million homes uses up far, far, far less land than does using wood to power one million homes.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Your response in no way improves your argument.
If you can't get your head around the concept that it is ridiculous to claim that the earth can support the energy, nutrient and spacial needs of a quadrillion people, please be so good as to demonstrate the calculations you used to arrive at this absurdity.

Hyperbole and "rough guesses are really pretty useless in arguments that rest upon empiricism. So get yourself in gear and work on the proof...post it when you have it completed. I doubt and double, triple dare you to show in a scientifically convincing manner that a quadrillion people can be supported on the planet Earth.

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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. A mathematical tidbit for Professor Higgins!
Julian Simon at the time of the the bet on mineral resources with Paul "DOOMSAYER" Ehrlich, famously stated that human population could grow without limitation for the next 7 billion years. One scientist, at least, took notice of this extraordinary claim.

Albert Bartlett, a U. Colorado physicist checked out the claim, and found that if human population grew at 1 percent per year for 7 billion years, it would quickly pass 9.99 x 10/99 (sorry, can't do exponential notation in this format), a number too large to have any possible physical meaning.

When he pointed this out to Simon, the economist responded, "Oh, I meant '7 million years.'" Bartlett did the same computation. Funny thing is, that at 1 percent growth per year, human population would outnumber the number of atoms in the universe in a touch over 17,000 years.

So, prattle on all you want about inland salt-water plankton farms and garbage gasoline and human ingeniuty and free markets and orbiting solar mirrors. For my part, I'll take the work of ecologists and biologists any day of the week and twice on Sundays over the jolly Panglossian bullshit of economists who can't count.
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T_S_Magnum Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I need to come out of lurking for this.
Julian Simon was obviously WRONG on that particular point. Obviously, if the human population grew at 1% for 7 million years, then the number of people would exceed the number of atoms in the universe, which is obviously IMPOSSIBLE.

Thus, Simon was WRONG on that point.

However, Higgins NEVER said he agreed with Simon on that point.

Hatrack, it is not logical for you to try to discredit Higgins' statements about technology, turning garbage into oil, desalination, modern agriculture, etc., for something that Higgins himself NEVER SAID.

I myself do believe that human beings can and do increase the carrying capacity of the earth with modern technology.

Do I think the earth can support a quadrillion people? No. Of course not.

However, it is obvious to anyone who understands technology that we can indeed provide a first world standard of living for the entire current population of 6.3 billion people. If all farmland was to adopt modern agriculture, and we used desalination to provide water, and we used thermal depolymerization to create oil and fertilizer and to recycle our waste, and we used windmills and solar energy and clean safe modern nuclear power, then there's no reason why we couldn't achieve a first world standard of living for every one of the 6.3 billion people on earth right now. In fact, with all of these technologies, the carrying capacity of the earth could be increased to provide a first world standard of living for 10 times the current population.

I have read the original post that started this thread 3 times, and I cannot find one factual or logical or scientific error in it. In fact, I have noticed that NO ONE in this discussion has actually disputed any of the SPECIFIC claims that were made in the original post.

Hatrack, since you complain so much about the problems of the world, such as how billions of people don't have enough clean drinking water, then WHY do you get so angry whenever anyone mentions a technological solution such as desalination?

Since you complain about the billions of hungry people in the world, then WHY do you get so angry whenever anyone suggests that the people in these countries should adopt modern agriculture?

Since you complain about the world running out of oil, then WHY do you complain when someone mentions the idea of turning garbage into oil?

Hatrack, it seems to me that you are AGAINST actually solving the problems, because you ENJOY complaining about them.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. However, he DID say that the Earth could support trillions or quadrillions
This is an obvious absurdity, and I called him on it. If you believe that absurd, mathematically impossible statements should not be challenged, well, that's your right. However, I don't agree with that stance.

The Earth's human population is currently about 6.2 billion people. I won't even go as high as "trillions", but will instead, using the low end of Mr. Higgins' statement, project a nice round number of one trillion human beings as a theoretical global population.

This would be a human population 161.29 times larger than that living on the planet today. This would mean increasing world food supply by 161.29 times over current production totals. Considering the chemical and petrochemical inputs needed to maintain current world food production totals, this would also call for increases in energy availability to power production, unless someone comes up with strains of rice, wheat and corn that can thrive in sand. This would also necessitate expanding the world's agricultural land by 161.29 times, and if you have any ideas on how that might be done, please let me know.

If the one trillion residents of this theoretical population wanted to improve their standard of living to first-world levels, the necessary increases in energy inputs would, of course, be substantially higher.

I'm certainly not against innovative energy developments, such as those noted by Mr. Higgins. Gasoline from garbage? Cool! Biodiesel? I'm all for it. Wind, solar and tidal power will also play increasingly important roles in energy production in the future. Fuel efficiency and new automotive technologies? Of course - I drive a hybrid car. But can even these innovative approaches increase world energy production 160-fold or more? I sincerely doubt it.

In addition, there are thermodynamic limits to energy development. Ethanol is frequently mentioned as an energy solution. However, most estimates of ethanol efficiency do not include the energy inputs for fertilizers and pesticides used to grow the corn or bagasse, and do not include transport, pumps or the ethanol refining process in calculations of the net energy content of ethanol. If such energy inputs are included, ethanol works out as a sink, rather than a source - that is, it takes more total energy in production, shipping and processing to produce a gallon of the fuel than is produced when it's burned in the engine of a car.

Another example - the Athabascan tar sands are substantial deposits of heavy oil located in Alberta. Total reserves are estimated in the hundreds of billions of barrels - bigger reserves, in fact, than those of conventional sweet crude in Saudi Arabia. But the refining process is incredibly energy- and water-intensive. The rock and soil overburden of the tar sands must first be stripped away to get to the sands, which are then separated using hot water and refined into conventional liquid oil. The wastewater goes into holding ponds in previously stripped areas, and the oil goes off to market. Geologists estimate that to completely exploit Canada's tar sands would require creating a wastewater lagoon the size of Lake Ontario. In addition, the separation process uses inexpensive natural gas available on site in Alberta. Exhaustion of the feedstock for the refining process will be problematic for the oil sands industry, to say the least.

I am not arguing against innovation and new forms of energy development. What I do have a problem with is the invocation of the techno-fix as the solution to these kinds of deep-seated problems before even knowing the net energy balance of these innovations.

More fundamentally, I object to the premise, stated both implicitly and explicitly by Mr. Higgins, that ingenuity renders human beings immune from physical and biological limits. This is, plainly speaking, nonsense. We are in this world and of this world, and we face the same constraints that slime molds and mole rats and pine trees and meerkats do. We are one in a long series of organisms that have evolved over very long periods of time, and there will be a long series of organisms subject to the same constraints long after we're gone.

Besides, on a planet with a trillion people, can you even imagine trying to find a parking space?



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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. I'm no scientist
but even I know that "energy returned on energy invested" must be considered when evaluating energy new energy sources in addition to "dollars returned on dollars invested."

Amanda
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Well, I am still waiting for anything that looks convincing.
The world has about 12 million square miles of arable land.

source: pages.prodigy.net/jhonig/bignum/qland2.html

Pick a dimension in square miles that realistically will provide an average person with 1800 kcalories per day for 365 & 1/4 days per year(obviously ignoring fuel inputs required for the agriculture and unpleasant facts such as people in first world nations drink coffee and tea which provide strikingly few kcalories per acre, or the problem that people live pretty close to food supplies and many towns and suburbs are sitting in and expanding onto the very arable land that is needed to support them. I allow you to also ignore the reality that disease transmission increases both functionally and numerically with host population density... in short I am cutting your side of the argument A LOT of slack...)

Whatever reasonable choice for conversion of kcalories of production to humans, you won't end up with a quadrillion people being supported by the arable land on the planet. (While some areas of ocean are highly productive, the total area of these locations is small. Don't rely on the sea to bail out your argument unless you can rigorously justify your argument).

Frankly, I am not sure how a person could get a calculation to end up with a trillion human inhabitants, tens of billions maybe, given favorable specultation. But at THAT size the resultant human population MUST displace large numbers of other species that are currently feeding off the production of that same land. I guess in the future it is good bye to dogs and cats which eat pretty high on the food chain, and everything else that eecks out a living by intercepting a fraction of human food production (who needs red-tailed hawks anyway?), or its spacial requirements...(so long weeds and other potential competitor plant species).

I am a big fan of technology, but planetary productivity is NOT free to grow exponentially with cultural enhancements. There are real physical limits to energy sources, nutrient availability and space which inevitably must constrain human expansion. We can push at the envelope sometimes finding techonolical tricks to expand our resource base, but based on historical patterns in pushing towards an asymptote the ever increasing costs of these gains will ultimately yeild diminishing returns. Even in Higgin's capitalist utopia, at some point the cost-benefit ratio is simply going to become prohibitive.

So convince me that, beyond naked speculation on increases in agricultural and human dietary efficiencies, there is a way to accomodate the outrageously high numbers for human population proferred by JQ.






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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-03 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
42. Thank you
The "magic of the free market" had the rivers catching on fire 30 ro 40 years ago.

The notion that unfettered greed will work towards the common good is simply so much hogwash. Or perhaps more like the effluent from the lagoons at the industrial hog farms... (Nice technological innovation there!)

Nice primer on ecological principles.

From another ecological scientist, keep up the good work!
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. Shoddy, sloppy analysis - are your arms tired from bashing the strawmen?
It's hard to say where to begin. I might start by suggesting"Overshoot" by William Catton, though I'm sure others on this board can recommend perhaps more recent works on bioscience and ecology.

Yes, the Ehrlichs were wrong, and Julian Simon was right - at least on the famous first bet involving mineral and metal resources. The story that doesn't get told deals with the second bet, which failed to take place in 1995. After Simon insisted that "any trend pertaining to material human welfare will improve rather than get worse," Paul Ehrlich and Steven Schneider, a climatologist, took him up on the challenge. The fifteen trends they chose included sperm counts, AIDS deaths, per capita rice and wheat harvests, sulfur dioxide emissions, cropland per capita, global temperature increases, per capita fishery harvests. Simon had puffily boasted about betting on any - ANY - trend, but I guess he didn't like the ones Ehrlich and Schneider picked, since he never accepted their challenge.

Human ingenuity, you insist, will solve all the problems we face. Let's take a look at human ingeniuty. The practice of blast and/or cyanide fishing has become common practice in much of East and SE Asia. In blasting huge holes in reefs or in poisoning substantial volumes of water, the fisherman exercises substantial ingenuity. He draws upon the chemical and engineering expertise of centuries to punch some holes in the water. He then takes the few fish, tosses them in the basket, and leaves blasted, contaminated reef unable to sustain substantial numbers of fish. Ingenious, don't you think?

Let's look at another example of human ingenuity, the fish farms which as you point out are just FULL of fish. Well, yes they are. In the case of salmon, the dominant aquaculture species, the pens are full of carnivorous fish. Where do these carnivores get their protein? Well, they get it from industrial fishing fleets that, having destroyed the North Atlantic, North Sea and Baltic Sea cod fisheries, now fish down the food chain for fish like pollock, menhaden, capelin (though they're also mostly gone now) and increasingly, squid and jellyfish. Since it takes five pounds of wild-caught protein to produce one pound of farmed salmon, this is a shell game. Once the supplies of cheap wild-caught protein go bye-bye, so to does the economic underpinning of salmon farming. Some species, such as tilapia or catfish, can be raised ona vegetarian diet, and so make substantially more ecological sense. But pen-raising salmon for food is like raising tigers for meat.

I won't even address the issues of aquaculture pollution, parasitism and disease and their effects on the remaining wild stocks, which are well-documented and substantial.

As far as the garbage into gasoline story, I'd like to know more about it. What is the energy budget for the process? How much energy is required to produce a gallon of garbage gas? Does it exceed the energy produced by burning the gasoline to do work? I'm well aware that diesel fuel can be made from a wide range of feedstock, but I'd like to know more about this process before I begin to applaud.

Maybe Yamani said it, and he's a fairly witty guy, but I've always hated the oil age/stone age quip, and it's depressing that you wrap up with this pathetic pseudo-analogy. Being able to read a depletion graph and predict the eventual depletion of a given resource does not make you a "doomsayer". Here are most of the oil producing nations, each nation's name followed by the year in which its oil production peaked:

Malaysia - 2001
Australia - 2002
Oman - 2002
FSU (Former Soviet Union) - 1987
Qatar - 1973
Egypt - 1993
Syria - 1999
Peru - 1981
Romania - 1976
Trinidad - 1977
Gabon - 2000
United Kingdom - 1999
Norway - 2002
Ecuador - 2002
Yemen - 2002
Angola - 2002
Denmark - 2002
Algeria - 1999
Cameroon - 1985
Libya - 1969
Brunei - 1979
Iran - 1973
United States - 1970

Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq still have a few years left in which they can increase capacity, and as the only three swing producers for the next 10-15 years, they're the only ones that matter. However, Oil & Gas Journal projects a Saudi peak in 2011, an Iraq peak in 2010 and the Kuwaiti peak in 2018. The fact that BP, Statoil and ExxonMobil have all pulled out of the Caspian should tell you most of what you need to know about the prospects of the "next Saudi Arabia". Resources are critical, oil is one of the most critical resources, and there are no thermodynacally equivalent substitutes on the horizon for an energy source that underpins our transport, energy and (above all) our agricultural system, techno-fix happy-talk notwithstanding.

While many of your points about corruption, brutality and inefficient government are on the mark, you show a serious lack of understanding of world oil markets, thermodynamics, energy and ecological reality.


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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. my response
The article on turning garbage into oil is here:

http://www.discover.com/may_03/featoil.html

Ever since poeple started usng oil 140 years ago, there have always been people who said that there was only 10 or 20 years worth left. They were wrong.

The price of oil takes into account all of the known information by all partricipants - buyers, sellers, investors, speculators, scientists, engineers, drillers, refiners, etc. If oil was truly running out, then this would cause the price for oil futures to skyrocket. This would encourage oil suppliers to take current supplies off the market, because they'd make more money selling it in the future. This would cause the current price to skyrocket.

The people who sell oil are greedy, and they will always charge as high a price as the market will bear. The fact that the current price of oil is *not* skyrocketing is proof that the oil supply is *not* running out.

The fact that gold is super expensive is proof that the supply *is* low, and the super high price for gold is precisely why we have *not* run out of gold.

The entire food chain of fish should be raised in private farms. It may take several levels until you get to the point where the fish at the bottom can be fed plants, but all steps involved should be done on private farms.

Blast and cyanide fishing are probably done mainly in poorer countries. Richer countries can afford to use better and more expensive methods which are friendlier to the environment.

Simon turned down Ehrlich's propsed bet because Ehrlich's proposal was an all or nothing proposal on all 15 things. Simon was perfectly willing to bet on things like per capita grain production and overall life expectancy. But Simon was not willing to bet on something as specific as just one disease like AIDS, because Simon was interested in overall life expectancy.
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Dissenting_Prole Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. yes, but....
J_Q_Higgins wrote:

"The fact that gold is super expensive is proof that the supply *is* low, and the super high price for gold is precisely why we have *not* run out of gold."

Yes, but we don't burn gold in our engines, now do we?
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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Of course not.
And the reason that we don't waste gold like that is precisely because it's expensive.

The function of prices is to communicate information about supply and demand. And economics is defined as being "the study of the use of scarce resources which have alternative uses."

Gold is highly prized. It is useful for jewlery and electrical applications and many other things. But the supply is very small - all the gold that's ever been mined would fit in a cube that's less than 200 feet per side.

The only reason there's no shortage of gold is because of the price.

When a valuable resource is privately owned and the price is based on supply and demand, it is *impossible* for the resource to run out. It cannot happen. There has never been a single case where this has happened, and there never will be.

The "doomsayers" don't understand Economics 101, and that is why they have been consistently 100% wrong in each and every one of their predictions of "By the year X, the world's supply of resource Y will be gone." According to them, we should already be out of many resources. Their consistency in being wrong is because they do not understand the law of supply and demand.

The high price of gold is what prevents people from overusing it. The high price encourages people to seek out chepaer substitutes. So, for example, they will use copper as a substitute for gold in electrical wiring.

If the government set the price of gold at $10 an ounce, then there would be a shortage immediately. And then environmentalists would run around asking people to "Please conserve the world's scarce supply of gold. Please conserve! Please! Please! Pretty please!"
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Good luck on privatizing the oceans!
Edited on Mon Aug-18-03 03:12 PM by hatrack
You're going to need millions of acres of ocean and a hell of a lot of small-mesh net to grow phytoplankton, zooplankton and krill on your ocean farm, let alone small fish species and other life forms that make up the food chain.

And considering that existing fish farms are sources of major pollution plumes that have had substantial negative impacts on wild fisheries in areas as diverse as the Bay of Fundy, the Hebrides and the Firth of Forth, the coastal regions of Thailand and the coastal oceans of the Pacific Northwest, it should be interesting trying to control the waste and pollutants from truly massive farms of smaller organisms.

Of course, a recent scientific survey (summer 2002) by the Royal Academy revealing that phytoplankton levels in many areas of the North Atlantic had declined by as much as 80% suggests that other factors may be in play in depressing plankton levels - increased UVB or warmer water temperatures are the chief suspects. Somehow, I doubt that the privatized status of plankton will protect them from larger environmental challenges.

Then there's the Law of the Sea and all of its ramifications for navigation, fishing rights, offshore mineral development and so on.

Why not privatize the atmosphere while you're at it?

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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. My response.
I was thinking of doing everything on private farms inland.

This is kind of interesting:

http://www.fish.govt.nz/commercial/aquaculture/about_index.html
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
11. This is Randite theology
"In the rich capitalist countries with a first world standard of living, the air and water have been getting cleaner."

Through corporate globalization, we 'externalize' our waste and pollution onto other countries who have been "invested" in just long enough to get dumped on. The rich (white) countries have become post-industrial and have legislated restraints on certain industries, resulting in the improvements you noted. At least until now.

It's coming back to bite us anyway. Land is disappearing underwater in Louisiana and Florida, and just try to tell a European who has been alternately baked and drenched each year that they are too prosperous to experience such environmental degradation. What a yo-yo!

Fish-farms produce fish with far higher levels of toxins than those naturally-spawned. And the toxin levels are rising. Further, fish are virtually disappearing from the oceans, and even the un-servable stocks are dwindling as they are used as fish food in the farms.

The free-market approach is not precautionary and instills short-sightedness. No investor can adequately forsee what natural attributes of the land will become valuable 100 years hence. The market has traded agriculture for pollution and no one on Wallstreet cared until it was too late.

The "doomsayers" you refer to are hard-boiled scientists this time, many of the same ones that warned us about nuclear war. They know that humans can use resources cleverly for their own prosperity and pleasure, but so far the bottom line has been the ongoing destruction of biological diversity and natural resources for the sake of maintaining a huge, desperate offshore labor pool for the richest 5% of the world population that likes to be showered in lots of dead things (products).

Sorry, but your money-religion does not hold up to scrutiny. It is, in fact, incredibly offensive and little more than snake oil looking for credulity.

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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Examples: Streams in Mexico are full of untreated industrial waste
Peasant Asians have to find work breaking down old PCs and CRTs full of heavy metals and other toxins.
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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Mexico is a poor country with corrupt government.
If Mexico was to adopt the same kinds of legal and economic institutions that exist in the United States, Canada, Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan, then Mexico's environment would become greatly improved.

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J_Q_Higgins Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. My response.
The enviornment is better in rich countries because of technology. For example, compare the emissions from a car manufactured today vs. a car manufactured 40 years ago.

Of course rich capitalist countries have environmental problems.

However, you are comparing the rich capitalist countries to your ideal environmnental utopia. That comparison is not logical.

The logical comparison is to compare the rich capitalist countries to the other *real* *world* countries. This comparison shows that the rich capitalist countries do indeed have a much better track record of protecting the enviornment. For example, the rich capitalist countries of Western Europe had quite good environments in the 1980s, while the poor communist countries of Eastern Europe had the worst enviornmental track records and the worst cases of pollution and resourse waste and environmental damage that has ever existed anywhere.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-29-03 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. Really, did you ever hear of the element Mercury?
It's in the periodic table. If you're not familiar with it, it's bad for your brain.

The United States, one of the rich countries - well it used to be a rich country until a few years ago - has been injecting this element into the air in vast quantitities in the form of fly ash and coal ash and it is widely distributed in our soil in cumulative amounts. It continues to rain down on us every day in ever growing quantities. It is working its way up the food chain into the physiological systems of the great pretators, we being the greatest predators of all. We can expect that this sort of activity is likely to increase, owing to our (insane) "leadership."

Speaking of insanity, there is a theory that floats around that one of the causes of the decline of the Roman empire was its wealth: They could afford very advanced water distribution systems that unfortunately used neurotoxic lead in its piping. Voila Bush, no I mean Caligula.

Mercury is of course the element that made hatters mad as in "Mad Hatters." Sometimes I speculate, when I notice the rather vast increase in collective insanity in this country, whether our wealth and our resulting output of mercury are connected.
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TennesseeWalker Donating Member (925 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-03 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
38. A-men.
I once again refer those interested in this topic to Richard Heinberg's "The Party's Over" and also refer you to www.museletter.com.
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FallingSky Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
30. Homebrewed Electricity
Homebrewed Electricity
But first I was inspired to write this as I tried to get information out....

Yeah well here's my thoughts on a "Pro-Constitution" Board that makes you "Register" to Speak, and then wont let you post a new thread until you've responded to a few posts first to see what you're all about and if your kind of information is acceptable for others to see.

Geez, what's that about and how is someone suposed to get information out? Or is that the intent?

I'm trying to let people know there is a board showing you how to make your own usable electricity pretty easy so you wont get caught in the next black out. Also you wont be sending you money to the power companies.

Maybe someone else will post this as a thread?
________________

Hi, we started a homebrewed electricity page with a pro-constitution attitude.

It has real good discussions on everything from making your own usable electricity (beginners & advanced) to exposing/questioning the BS going on.

Example thread for beginners electricity
http://www.fighting.org/discus/messages/441/773.html


Example thread of asking WTF?
http://www.fighting.org/discus/messages/441/743.html


Main Page
http://www.fighting.org/discus/messages/441/441.html


Thanks
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-03 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Thermal Polymerization is not a panacea.
The average citizen of the United States, the highest per capita waste generating country int he world, produces 4.46 pounds (2 kg) of garbage a day, only part of which polymeric material.

http://www.epa.gov/region09/waste/solid/basicfacts.html

That part which can be recovered as energy in the form of oil is limited by the inefficiency of the system, which, as it is a thermal system, necessarily involves the production of waste heat. Also it would be safe to assume that under "depolymerization" conditions, much of the garbage would be carbonized.

Supercritical water oxidation systems promise somewhat higher yields in carbon delivery, but even if they were to recover all of the mass of the garbage through such schemes, this would not account for an average automobile fill-up, never mind the demands for heating oil, solvents, power generation, etc. In order for such a system to be productive, it will require biomass, and thus arable land. It is in my mind an open question whether the vaunted agricultural practices developed in the last century are in fact sustainable. The result in huge problems with erosion, soil depletion, and salt concentration. I note that the use of "modern" agricultural methods has lead to a severe reduction in the carrying capacity of the Gulf of Mexico around the mouth of the Mississippi river, where many dead zones exist because of eutrophication effects resulting from excess nitrate and phosphate run-off. Huge swathes of the earth are already depleted as agricultural and biological resources, including much of North Africa, once the granary of the Roman Empire. Is there anyone on the planet today who can find a "Cedar of Lebanon?"

Moreover, the source of most of the polymers in garbage is oil itself. This suggests that the expectation that thermal depolymerization schemes as energy sources is something of a perpetual motion machine. In spite of much anguish about it, the second law of thermodynamics still holds.

On the subject of salt, I note that desalination schemes all require changes in the salinity of either the water in the area of the plants or the use of salt dumps on land. Either strategy will inevitably have profound environmental effects if over used, including the destruction of fisheries and natural habitats.

The fact that improved technologies has managed to produce oil way past earlier peak predictions does NOT mean that such prediction is spurious. There is no evidence that oil is being made on the earthm and therefore it WILL run out. It is just a question of time. The fact that my death is predicted and has not occurred, or does not occur in a predicted time frame, does not imply that it will not occur ultimately. Moreover there is good evidence that the pollution resulting from oil will cause an atmospheric collapse. When we examine questions of "carrying capacity" it is probably reasonable to reflect on the thousands of deaths in France last month. The "carrying capacity" is in fact subject to rather rapid change of which the unfortunate French in question may only represent canaries in the cage.

Nuclear fission represents an enormously rich and clean source of energy. If however we assume that the world energy demand stabilizes at the predicted 2050 level, roughly 1000 exajoules/year, an assumption that in turn depends on population stabilization, the world's Thorium and Uranium resources, with complete actinide recycling and recovery, and capture of the fission product energy (not a trivial task) is only about 2000 years. Fusion is often proposed as an alternative, though it has resisted practical development. It is not true however that, even if it proves possible to harness fusion energy, that the fuel for fusion reactions is water. It is deuterium, present in tiny fractions in water, and tritium, obtained by breeding from the relatively rare element Lithium.

I do not think that an infinite carrying capacity is realistic at all. In fact, it's wishful thinking, the product of selecting too small of a temporal sample and extrapolating it (unjustifiably) ad infinitim.
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GAspnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. well-put, and welcome NNadir
Edited on Thu Aug-28-03 03:10 PM by GAspnes
Damn that brutal gang of facts...
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GAspnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
31. My dear Mr. Higgins
I do not believe you have an accurate thesis.

If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that human ingenuity can and will overcome any resource shortage that might limit the (human) carrying capacity of the Earth.

There are two logical problems with your argument.

The first is that you imply indefinite carrying capacity, that ingenuity will allow an arbitrarily large number of humans to exist on Earth. This is illogical on it's face, since I can pick some *very* large numbers.

The second logical problem with this thesis is that it relies on facts not in evidence. There are a *lot* of resources required to sustain human existence -- energy, free oxygen, food, at the minimum -- and for your argument to stand, you would have to identify an ingenious solution to the lack of every one. All the opponent has to do is identify one resource for which there is no solution, and your thesis succumbs to falsification.

For the second point, since I have 20 minutes to kill, let us pick energy. As has been pointed out, bringing additional sunlight to the Earth's surface will inevitably raise the temperature of the planet, with unpredictable but likely disastrous effects. You counter by offerring solar panels in space as a way of conveying energy without heat. The laws of thermodynamics get in the way of this proposal. All energy eventually converts to heat. There is no amount of ingenuity which can overcome this restriction.

Thus, your thesis really isn't defensible and is more of a bar argument than an actual scientific proposal.


On a more philosophical note, I don't think I would care to live on a planet which was wholly devoted to supporting humans through a variety of technological methods. Physical expansion alone would require eventually employing the entire surface as living area (there's that large number of people again). No more forests, trees, fish, birds, bugs (well, they might survive). No skiing, swimming, hiking. Sounds pretty awful to me.


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kengineer Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
32. How do we want to live
If everybody lived like a "nature person" the planet Earth could support much more than it does today... if they simply ate food, returned the "fertilizer" back into the environment, had simple naturally made homes etc, the planet could support probably well over 10 billion people.

So how do we want to live is the question.

If you go to thailand they eat much better food than here in the United States because it's more locally grown and freshly prepared. In Asia they also sustain much higher populations. It's also much cheaper to "exist" in Asia (except Japan).

Regarding "out of control population growth" I'll propose a scenario.

Population one lives in "it's lands" and controls its population numbers to a steady number. Population two lives adjacent to population one but its population is growing "out of control" and spilling over into the lands of population one.

Is it healthy for population one to allow this, thusly overpopulating their lands?

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GAspnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. we are life, "bloody in tooth and claw"
This so-called civilization that we live in is less than 10,000 years old.

For a thousand times that long, we have lived by eating, procreating and killing everything that got in our way.

We are an algae bloom on the Earth. We'd better get control of ourselves, or there isn't much of a future for humans.
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Boreas Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-29-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. The elephant in the living room
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #33
44. Our "Civilization" is in fact less than 100 years old....
and already it has drastically depleted the feedstocks which allow it to exist. Before 1920 more than half of the United States populace lived in rural communities. That is they lived on or near farms with the majority of their resources cycling through the local environment.

The arrogance that presumes that we can even maintain our current numbers ignores several facts.

Within the last 2,000 years there have been several periods of extreme winters that severly curtailed agriculture. The so-called mini-ice age comes to mind. These would cause mass famines and the loss of food supply for billions.

In the last few years grain production has fallen BELOW CONSUMPTION worldwide. We are right now eating into our reserves and the number of days that we can feed the world without new harvests has fallen drastically.

Current agricultural practices demand inputs of energy from coal, oil or natural gas. These are all resources which are finite. This means we cannot divert agricultural production to fuel without removing people from the dwindling grain supply.

Please do some actual research BEFORE you bother people with your wishes-are-fishes theology.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-03 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
39. I learn more from Hatrack in one thread
than I do in the rest of DU combined it seems.

Great contributions from all of you...this has been a fascinating read even for my slow mind!
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The Commie Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-07-03 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
43. Malthusian Limit
Edited on Sun Sep-07-03 10:17 PM by The Commie
It is not "carrying cappacity we have to wory about, it is the quality of life of those people. According to the book Diversity of Life, to support 6 billion people at the level of the west would require 2 more Earths. the only cure for this is to reduce our population via China-type population controls. It may be draconian but it is required if we want everybody to not live in poverty.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
45. bogus, immoral randite rubbish, like a 10 yr old discovering Sci-Fi
Edited on Mon Sep-08-03 10:29 AM by blindpig
It's hard to find a place to begin. Looks as though other posters have handled your basic inability to comprehend science. However, I can't resist this easy to visualize example: In order to raise the entire current world population to a Western standard of living would require four planet Earths, exploited to the utter max(E.O.Wilson).
The real horror that your missive inspires is it's blanal homeocentricism. You imply that it is desirable to convert every square inch of this planet to maximum human exploitation. That this at the least severely compromises the "infrastructure services" that are part of the normal functioning of the biosphere doesn't enter your head. Given the above, it's not surprising that the extinction of most other lifeforms doesn't enter into your calculations. In my book that makes you either ignorant or wicked.
ADVICE: don't apply economics to biology. Also, get out in the woods sometime, think about that which you would exterminate.

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The Commie Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. DOH!
Edited on Mon Sep-08-03 04:02 PM by The Commie
Wilson said 4 earths? I thought he said 2.5! DOH! You are right, jeez, I am an enviromentalist and I forgot aboout that!?!
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
48. J Q lies up on boot hill...
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