Ford Considering Plug-In Hybrid Development - Reuters

[hatrack]

Ooh! Way to get ahead of the curve guys - only 9.25 YEARS after the production Prius first rolled off the line in Nagoya, you're thinking about a plug-in! :wtf:

DEARBORN, Mich. - Ford Motor Co. is considering the development of plug-in hybrid vehicles in an effort to provide alternate energy sources, the director of the automaker's hybrid program said Tuesday. Speaking at the Automotive News World Congress in Dearborn, Michigan, Nancy Gioia said the automaker is considering adding plug-ins products, but the biggest challenge in development is battery technology.

"The biggest barrier is the battery," Gioia said. Plug-in hybrids use a battery as the main source of energy and can be recharged at electrical outlets.

Battery technology is key to the next generation of hybrid vehicles as automakers seek ways to lower the cost of batteries and increase their power and storage capacity. Gioia's comments came a week after General Motors Corp. revived its once-failed idea of a mass-market electric car, unveiling a new "concept" car called the Volt designed to use little or no gasoline.

Gioia declined to provide a timeline on plug-in hybrids, but said they will be more expensive than other vehicles. Gioia also said people will likely not buy plug-ins without big federal tax breaks. (emphasis added)

EDIT

http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/39887/story.htm

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. the biggest barrier is the battery.

the biggest barrier has been battery capacity and life SINCE SOME ONE TOOK AN ACID AND POURED IT OVER A WRAP OF LEAD AND PAPER!

this is something new?

oh my gawd. no wonder our auto industry is dying a late death. too late.

[tinrobot]

2. It's not easy to store that much energy in that small space.

Well, at least without burning something...and that's why we didn't have electric cars a century ago.

The current hybrids don't use lead acid, they use NiMH batteries, and the next generation will use Lithium Ion, both of which are still pretty expensive.

[zeemike]

4. Expensive as compared to what?

Would one cost more to make than a 6 cy motor and drive train with gas tank and pump?
Or more expensive than the present car battery?

[tinrobot]

5. Yes... and yes.

A gasoline engine is a lot cheaper than a big pile of Li-Ion batteries.

A car battery is lead-acid and while cheap, it's too inefficient to run much more than a golf cart.

The batteries needed to propel a car at freeway speeds for more than 100 miles on a charge are still expensive. You're talking tens of thousands of dollars just for the batteries.

If the battery technology was there, you would see the cars, but these cars will not come from Detroit, they'll come from the technology sector. Thankfully, there are some smart rich people investing in the technology, like the Silicon Valley people behind Tesla motors.

[zeemike]

6. Is the cost in the material and machinery it takes to make them

Or merely because no one makes them in a production way and so they are expensive.
even the most modern battery is still a simple device with few parts and no machine work necessary. It is hard for me to understand how something that is basically simple is more expensive than something very complex with many machinable parts.

[Massacure]

10. Most people who create electric conversion use Lithium-Ion batteries.

Lithium isn't very abundant on Earth.

[zeemike]

11. Another myth busted

I am just one of those persons that are tired of lame excuses and want action. Here is a Wickopedia excerpt.

On Earth, lithium is widely distributed, but because of its reactivity does not occur in its free form. In keeping with the origin of its name, lithium forms a minor part of almost all igneous rocks and is also found in many natural brines. Lithium is the thirty-first most abundant element, contained particularly in the minerals spodumene, lepidolite, petalite, and amblygonite. On average, Earth's crust contains 65 parts per million (ppm) lithium.

Since the end of World War II, lithium metal production has greatly increased. The metal is separated from other elements in igneous mineral such as those above, and is also extracted from the water of mineral springs.

The metal is produced electrolytically from a mixture of fused lithium and potassium chloride. In 1998 it was about US$ 43 per pound ($95 per kg).<1>.

Chile is currently the leading lithium metal producer in the world, with Argentina next. Both countries recover the lithium from brine pools. In the United States lithium is similarly recovered from brine pools in Nevada.<2>

[tinrobot]

13. Continue searching Wikipedia...

...for Lithium Ion battery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery

As per the article, Lithim is only one component of the battery, you also need Cobalt and Carbon to create the "ion" in Lithium-Ion as well as Phosphorus or Bromine for the electrolyte. On top of that, you have to assemble it all very carefully in a controlled environment so the battery doesn't explode.

I'm no expert in how all this would would cost out from a manufactuirng standpoint, but I do know that extensive use of Li-Ion cells in laptops and cellphones has already lowered the price. Sadly, that price is still pretty high.

The article also cites some new developments as well, such as a Li-Ion battery that has three times more capacity and can be recharged in under 6 minutes.

[zeemike]

15. Well then use Ni Cad or lead acid

Until something better comes along and it will
The point is to look what it is replacing. How many parts does a 6cy engine have anyway 6 pistons 18 rings 6 rods 6 bearing 12 (at least) valves 2 camshafts one crank shaft An oil pump 2 cylinder heads 12 rocker arms 2 rocker arm shafts 6 spark plugs timing gears timing chain water pump, and on and on. and all of these parts much be machined even if it is automated and requires a great deal of energy as well as material and labor to assemble.
Can't you see the enormous savings in energy and material and cost it would save us to have an electric car even if we had a battery in it that was less than perfect?
Even if you had a lead acid battery in it and the charge only was good for 100 miles it would work for more than 90% of what we want a car for
But even if you insist on putting the best Lithium battery in it with all it's disadvantages and complexities it would be far better and far les complex than what it replaces.
We have become wedded to a mechanical beast both because of inertia and by clever advertisement that makes us think that the car is an extension of ourselves instead of transportation. Let's get over that and be realistic. We can find other phallus symbols that do not cost us our freedom to maintain.

[tinrobot]

18. It's not the complexity, it's the performance

I totally agree that electric cars are simpler than gas engines, and that's one thing that really scares Detroit, who make about half their income on supplying replacement parts for these complex beasts. The drivetrain of an electric car is basically a battery, a motor, and a speed controller. This makes electic cars simpler to maintain and more reliable.

The big issues right now are related to price/performance. I went to an alt-fuel car show here in LA a few weeks ago. The lead-acid electric cars basically were glorified golf carts. They were physically tiny, could only go 35mph for about 40 miles and they cost about $10-15k. That's just not enough performance for people who use freeways and all that - and that's why these types of electric cars are not taking off. That same $10-15k could buy a small gasoline car with plenty of speed and range.

I think once we pass a price/performance barrier, electric cars will become hugely popular because they'll be significantly cheaper to operate and way more reliable. But we need to get fairly priced cars that can go reasonably fast and reasonably far on a single charge. Personally, I think that will be a $25-30K car that can go 100-200 miles/charge at freeway speeds, but if we provide incentives or change cities so people have to commute less, it could be less.

[zeemike]

19. Hey we are on the same page

The only difference that I see is I want to do It now. And If I had a billion I would put my mouth where my money is or something like that.
And i think it could be done for that.
I would start y hiring engineers in a Medlow Park atmosphere where the were free to create a brand new invention made from the off the shelf stuff we have today.
The battery does not have to be lead acid, there are better materials like zink that can serve as the cathode and anode, and plastic works just fine for the case, and it is practical to have one of a size that can hold a charge that will last 100 miles, that has already been done
The electric motors would be traction motors built right into the wheel hub and would recharge the battery on braking. None of this needs to be invented it exist now, but what the invention is is putting it together as a car designed to be manufactured as efficiently and cheep as possible But not cheaply made.
Sell it for 10k and offer good financing so that someone on minimum wage could afford it.
What I am saying is that it can and should be done now or even yesterday. This earth cannot wait on us to fiddle and tinker our way into the 21st century.

[tinrobot]

20. There's a few billionaires already doing this.

The founders of Google, for example, who have invested in heavily Tesla motors. They're doing it now, and thankfully, they're from Silicon Valley, a place that, unlike Detroit, thrives on new ideas and change.

Once they get it figured out, they'll be on top of a very huge and very profitable market.

[zeemike]

21. I am all for the Tesla

There is only two problems I see with it, and it has noting to do with how it works. it just that at 100k who can afford it but those that do not need to save on the cost of transportation. and secondly because it a product of silicone valley it will be as complex as possible and therefore more costly to maintain.
I am talking about a peoples car, the VW of the 21st century. one that a poor person can maintain himself with just some basic tools, And one where the battery (just like the engine in a VW) was easily changed out with a spare in your garage that charged off of solar panels when you were at work in the daytime, and even if you had a lot of travel in one day would have a fresh charge in the morning for free.
Is that so much to ask?

[Massacure]

14. Earth weighs 59,742,000,000 kilograms.

65 parts per million means there are 3900 metric tons of lithium on Earth. Or we could say eight and a half million pounds. Now if each car uses 100 pounds of lithium for batteries, you can make 85,000 cars.

So much for my "myth" huh???

[zeemike]

16. Got a math problem here

My search says it weighs 100 trillion trillion pounds now that is not even close to your weight in Kilos. a Kilo is what, 2.2 lbs? So half of that would bee 50 trillion trillion pounds or so? Did you drop a whole bunch of zeros

[Massacure]

17. Haha you got a point, but my math is correct, its google thats wrong.

I saw 5.9742 in scientific notation 10 places moved over. It should be 24. :evilgrin:

[LSK]

9. current plugin kits for Prius are around 10k

[Javaman]

12. Wouldn't that mean that it's not so much the battery technology

but the technology behind capacitors that need to be improved?

:shrug:

[zeemike]

3. But perhaps they do not want to live

At least not in the same form.
Why put any money into an american company when you are moving overseas to take advantage of cheep labor>. Better to let the american part of it die a slow death and move your investment into other places with the cheep labor.
After all a corporations and the ones that run them have no loyalty to country, only to profit do they pledge allegiance.

[LSK]

7. well at least the big 3 is starting wake up, better late than never

Is there a kit out already for the Escape?

[LSK]

8. answered my own question

http://www.hymotion.com/products.htm

[soswolf]

22. better batteries

If cars could send email, download porn, and have message boards, a better battery would have been developed already. Industry has proven, time and again, that if the demand is there, someone will step up and develop a better product.

The problem is that the demand isn't for green cars. There's also not a large profit margin for green cars, or a demand would have been created. Do you really think SUVs would have grown into what they are on their own? No. The money was in the SUVs, so that's where the marketing went.

Unfortunately, green cars aren't as marketable to the general public as SUVs.

Yet.

Which is why we need incentives (laws, regulations, tax breaks) to encourage the growth of the product.